Unpopular opinions

Hm, I actually most people would give credit to Gen I if asked. It's what started the Pokemon franchise, laying down a foundation of not only gameplay if uses to this day but also was the first major multimedia franchise having games, TCG, and an anime, ALL which are still going on to this day! It deserves its place in the annuals of history, and not just for video games but as a pop culture phenomenon that has yet to run out of steam.

BUT that doesn't change that, nowadays, the games themselves are only notable for how buggy they are. The fact is that if you want the "Kanto experience" there's FRLG, Let's Go, and probably a dozen fanmade remakes which have added in the Category Split & Fairy-type among other innovations. Gen I (and Gen II, essentially the Gameboy era games) have reached a point where museum pieces, to be admired but not played. Like, I wouldn't even suggest it even for the curious, once again FRLG would be my goto with Let's Go if they want a bit of the Yellow experience. I would say the only reason to go back to RBY is if you are either playing or making an interesting mod using the GB graphics.
So you don’t think Gen 2 has aged very well?

Likewise, I think HGSS was a pretty looking remake that sadly failed to address many fundamental issues with Johto like evolutionary stones being obnoxious to get, the low level curve, the faulty rematch system, and somehow made Lance harder as a final battle (he’d be hard in the originals if the Ice Punch TM didn’t exist). It’s a shame. Also, the Safari Zone was pretty garbage - easily the worst in the series with that dumb 3 hour in-game timer to unlock the other areas, complete with underleveled Pokémon.
 
The thing about removing legacy moves is... wasn't the point of the marks to make legacy movesets tournament-illegal?

It's like they are trying to fix a problem that does not exist.
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Casual Battle does not have any restrictions at all towards Pokemon used. Only Ranked and Competitive battles require Gen 8 legal Pokemon.
 
The thing about removing legacy moves is... wasn't the point of the marks to make legacy movesets tournament-illegal?

It's like they are trying to fix a problem that does not exist.
Honestly I think people are overthinking it.

I don't think they are trying to fix anything.

I'm quite confident the only reason that's a thing is due to the fact that PLA / SwSh / BDSP have completely different movesets which do not overlap even as far as actually existing moves go (es: BDSP has Hidden Power, SwSh doesnt, SwSh has a bunch of moves not present in BDSP, and LA has a bunch of new moves that don't exist in SwSh).
This would basically cause a constant need to ask the player to fix their pokemon moveset due to incompatible moves, as well as potentially have pokemon with relearnable moves in their moveset (due to egg moves / TR data from swsh) that do not exist in the other games.

I wouldn't be surprised if SV will just keep SwSh data regularly and this is a specific exception they've done for these 2 games to not have to bother with all the transfer bullshit things.
 
Pokemon Red / Blue / Yellow are fantastic games that don't get nearly enough credit from most people.
Hm, I actually most people would give credit to Gen I if asked. It's what started the Pokemon franchise, laying down a foundation of not only gameplay if uses to this day but also was the first major multimedia franchise having games, TCG, and an anime, ALL which are still going on to this day! It deserves its place in the annuals of history, and not just for video games but as a pop culture phenomenon that has yet to run out of steam.

BUT that doesn't change that, nowadays, the games themselves are only notable for how buggy they are. The fact is that if you want the "Kanto experience" there's FRLG, Let's Go, and probably a dozen fanmade remakes which have added in the Category Split & Fairy-type among other innovations. Gen I (and Gen II, essentially the Gameboy era games) have reached a point where museum pieces, to be admired but not played. Like, I wouldn't even suggest it even for the curious, once again FRLG would be my goto with Let's Go if they want a bit of the Yellow experience. I would say the only reason to go back to RBY is if you are either playing or making an interesting mod using the GB graphics.
I would like to add that while the games were indeed important, it wasn’t them alone that got Pokémon to the name it was today. If it wasn’t for the anime, Pokémon would never have gotten such appeal, and that’s not counting for merchandise like the TCG specifically. If it weren’t for the success of these factors, Pokémon would never be that successful as it is today.
 

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
is a Community Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
So you don’t think Gen 2 has aged very well?

Likewise, I think HGSS was a pretty looking remake that sadly failed to address many fundamental issues with Johto like evolutionary stones being obnoxious to get, the low level curve, the faulty rematch system, and somehow made Lance harder as a final battle (he’d be hard in the originals if the Ice Punch TM didn’t exist). It’s a shame. Also, the Safari Zone was pretty garbage - easily the worst in the series with that dumb 3 hour in-game timer to unlock the other areas, complete with underleveled Pokémon.
GSC certainly plays better than RBY as they actually now had some experience under their belt, though as you mentioned they really bungled the level curve. Plus to fit Kanto, even with the help of Iwata, they really had to cut quite a bit out.

... BUT I still don't know why you would play that over HGSS. HGSS fails to address the same issues, but that just means gameplay wise it's on "par". Except, modern players would be able to ease into HGSS more easily as it has both Abilities and the Physical/Special Split. Also, unlike FRLG, HGSS didn't stop later gen cross evolutions which could also change how you used certain Pokemon such as Yanma, Aipom, and Swinub (and once you access Kanto and get the Nat Dex are able to access the other evo methods). And, as you noted, HGSS is pretty to look at with a lot of visual details, maybe possibly the most for any of the DS games. Also HGSS has the Crystal elements incorporated into it.

I'm all for legacy moves being removed if it means hidden abilities can be reverted to regular abilities, since a hypothetical No Guard Fissure Machamp would no longer be possible.
They could also, you know, just make No Guard not work with OHKO moves.

I would like to add that while the games were indeed important, it wasn’t them alone that got Pokémon to the name it was today. If it wasn’t for the anime, Pokémon would never have gotten such appeal, and that’s not counting for merchandise like the TCG specifically. If it weren’t for the success of these factors, Pokémon would never be that successful as it is today.
Well I did hint to that in the first paragraph of my post you quoted so I wasn't ignoring the anime or TCG. We were just talking about the games and specifically their contribution.
 
BUT I still don't know why you would play that over HGSS. HGSS fails to address the same issues, but that just means gameplay wise it's on "par".
If the remakes fail to improve upon the originals, and you get the same gameplay flaws no matter which one you play, why bother with the remakes? Then I'd rather stick to the originals. Plus I have a positive nostalgic attachment to G/S/C which I don't have for HG/SS. I have explained my thoughts on this in more detail here, don't feel like repeating it all again.
Also, unlike FRLG, HGSS didn't stop later gen cross evolutions which could also change how you used certain Pokemon such as Yanma, Aipom, and Swinub (and once you access Kanto and get the Nat Dex are able to access the other evo methods).
If several cross-gen evos are blocked until the post-game, I consider that a big negative since there's no good reason for it. HG/SS allowed you to get Yanmega, Tangrowth, Ambipom, Lickilicky and Mamoswine before you beat the E4, so why not the others as well? And you can't get Probopass, Magnezone, Leafeon and Glaceon in HG/SS at all outside of trading (just like you can't get Espeon or Umbreon in FR/LG). This is basically inexcusable as they could easily just have added a magnetic zone and moss/ice rocks to the games. Thankfully OR/AS did everything right by allowing you to get all the new cross-gen evos before beating the game (and all Eeveelutions after beating the game).
Also HGSS has the Crystal elements incorporated into it.
No. They. Have. Not. See the post I linked to earlier for a summary of everything HG/SS didn't keep from Crystal (or changed for the worse in some cases).
They could also, you know, just make No Guard not work with OHKO moves.
This is honestly the best solution to this problem I have seen. It would be really great if this was the case. And on this topic, I also find it annoying how you can change a regular Ability to a Hidden Ability, but it can't be done the other way around.
 
Pokemon never went downhill.

I think XY is pretty mediocre, but ORAS was good, Sun and Moon/Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon were arguably the best games in the series.

LGPE wasn't made for our demographic, and SWSH is very mediocre. I don't think SWSH is the worst Pokemon game, but it's the worst at its time; Pokemon Red is worse today, but it was one of the best Gameboy games at the time. Sword and Shield has a good online component but that's kind of it.

BDSP is mediocre,

PLA good.

But unlike others, I wouldn't say "some mediocre some good" is a new phenomenon by any stretch. I like Gen 3, but think DP is pretty bad, Platinum is okay, HGSS is good. Black and White above average, B2W2 at the upper height.

I think Pokemon has always been a bumpy road, and my favorite games in the series came out in """The Dark Times"""

I hate how Reddit Opinions have taken over Pokemon discourse. Gen5ers or whatever. A lot of people love the games of "The Downfall", and for legitimate reasons; but going on Twitter or Reddit you just find a homogeny of one single tier list basically, and then if you go anywhere else you find an immense variety of opinions.

I know this was ranty, RIP
 
Interesting to think about the possible directions the games might’ve taken if the anime hadn’t been such a success and Pokemon not ending up the biggest media franchise in the world.
Let's say that a lot of the stuff GameFreaks can get away with right now (whenever it's due to them being bad programmers or TPCI pushing a harsh release schedule or a comb oof both) would not be possible, since without the franchise carrying the games, they would have actually needed to stand out to justify the investment.
 
I would like to add that while the games were indeed important, it wasn’t them alone that got Pokémon to the name it was today. If it wasn’t for the anime, Pokémon would never have gotten such appeal, and that’s not counting for merchandise like the TCG specifically. If it weren’t for the success of these factors, Pokémon would never be that successful as it is today.
But in Japan at least, the Anime and TCG were created over a year after Red and Green were released as a direct result of the games being a surprising smash hit, which was unexpected by pretty much anyone working on the games since it was released on 7 year old system that was at it's lowest point popularity-wise(Pokemon single-handedly brought the Gameboy back into the spotlight and was the main contributing factor for the system getting successors)
 
I kind of wish TPC/GF would focus on making Battle Stadium Singles more prominent. I truly believe that BSS is an underrated gem of competitive Pokémon . There are so many cool strategies that aren’t viable in 6v6 Singles or VGC, like Counter Sash Urshifu, Curse + Substitute Mimikyu, and OHKO Fishing for starters. On the topic of OHKO moves, their legality made sets like Sub Roost Articuno, Moody Glalie, and Gliscor terrifying stallbreakers. It also great seeing how metagames develop without bans unlike Smogon. One of my favor teams was using a Hail Core of Alolan Ninetales, Alolan Sandslash, and Mega Gyarados to counter top threats like Mega Salamence, Aegislash, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Hippowdown and Mimikyu to name a few. Speaking of stall, I don’t really find it as concerning as people fear it might be due to a few factors, primarily that three slots are a lot less defensively reliable than six slots, and being Lv. 50, the defensive stats aren’t proportionally as high. Plus, Dynamax makes it that hard stall is very difficult to use. If they really are concerned about games going for to long, they can do a 10-15 minute match time ( Yes match time, Your Time sucks ) to ensure games don’t go too long.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
I kind of wish TPC/GF would focus on making Battle Stadium Singles more prominent. I truly believe that BSS is an underrated gem of competitive Pokémon . There are so many cool strategies that aren’t viable in 6v6 Singles or VGC, like Counter Sash Urshifu, Curse + Substitute Mimikyu, and OHKO Fishing for starters. On the topic of OHKO moves, their legality made sets like Sub Roost Articuno, Moody Glalie, and Gliscor terrifying stallbreakers. It also great seeing how metagames develop without bans unlike Smogon. One of my favor teams was using a Hail Core of Alolan Ninetales, Alolan Sandslash, and Mega Gyarados to counter top threats like Mega Salamence, Aegislash, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Hippowdown and Mimikyu to name a few. Speaking of stall, I don’t really find it as concerning as people fear it might be due to a few factors, primarily that three slots are a lot less defensively reliable than six slots, and being Lv. 50, the defensive stats aren’t proportionally as high. Plus, Dynamax makes it that hard stall is very difficult to use. If they really are concerned about games going for to long, they can do a 10-15 minute match time ( Yes match time, Your Time sucks ) to ensure games don’t go too long.
I haven't played any teambuilt Battle Spot Singles, but I certainly do have a soft spot for the format since Showdown has a randomised version (BSSF) using pre-made sets by the Smogon BSS community that is really fun. Cutting your team in half at team preview based on what Pokémon the opponent has brought is very interesting strategy and not actually as coinflippy as it sounds, oftentimes both you and the opponent can gauge which 3 mons are optimal for both of you to bring and plan accordingly, maybe making one risky selection outside of the optimal 3 if there isn't so much opportunity cost. And even with stallier sets, games rarely last more than 10 turns unless an evasion-boosting Pokémon is brought.

I do think Smogon Singles is an overall better, more competitive experience than BSS, but yeah BSS should definitely still be more of an option than it is and should be played at major official tournaments. It's a very unique experience that is more fun than it looks. Ironically, if they were to start headlining it at official tournaments more, they would probably have to slightly go down the Smogon route and ban at the very least Minimize as a move, as that is the main move that makes games last too long.
 
SWSH is very mediocre. I don't think SWSH is the worst Pokemon game, but it's the worst at its time; Pokemon Red is worse today, but it was one of the best Gameboy games at the time.
Well yeah, people today with basic programming skills can rebuild the original games better than ever. There's plenty of Rom hacks that prove this. Technology is wonderful and makes a mockery of the original games.

But that's like saying the Wright Brothers aircraft is shit. I mean yeah, by today's standards it is. But that isn't really fair. I could go to Walmart / Cabellas and buy the cheapest gun they sell and immediately become the deadliest warrior on the planet in the year 1400. But that says nothing about my skills or abilities, just that technology makes things outdated.

SwSh were, almost objectively speaking, the worst Pokemon games of all time accounting for technology. They have fewer Pokemon than games released a DECADE ago, no real story mode outside of "fight gym, walk 10 minutes, tap A as characters talk, repeat until game ends", cut moves / Pokemon that is unprecedented in the series, Online play that makes Starcraft 1998 look more advanced, countless terrible unpopular gameplay decisions like mandatory battle time, mandatory XP share, and dexit, paid DLC that takes 30 minutes to beat, cut Megas, and arguably the worst gimmick ever Dynamax. The only good thing I can say about them is they're graphically better than any game before them but given the hardware difference it would be hard not to. It's an insult to the fans that this is the crap the world's most profitable franchise gives us.

The games were clearly rushed and trash. Yeah by 20 YEAR technology standards they're better than the original games but that's a really low bar to clear.
 
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QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
Okay here's a doofer of an unpopular opinion.

With Dexit appearing to be the state of play for new games for the foreseeable future, I would actually really dig a Pokemon game composed entirely of newer Pokemon, by which I mean those from gens III, IV and later.

The old Pokemon have their place - many of them are my favourites - but they're so over-exposed that they're just boring to me now. I just don't think there's much left to do with the species from Gen I and II any more save regional variants, but we've got enough from the first two gens that I don't think more are needed: Hoenn only has one, and Sinnoh none at all, so future regional variants should make use of those regions.

But I'm not actually talking about regional variants; I'd just appreciate a game where the newer-older Pokemon get a spotlight. Some Pokemon, like Finneon and Lumineon, have had very little attention and focus despite being introduced 16 (!!) years ago. I used to dislike unconventional or experimental Pokemon designs, but I'm realising now that I'd rather be exposed to a "miss" from a later generation than a safe option. Honestly I really don't know why I haven't played PLA yet, it sounds like it's exactly my bag.

Of course, it'll never happen. Nintendo draws players in with old favourites like Charizard and Gengar, but I could honestly go a whole generation without seeing those. Let them take a break. I promise I'll be more interested in seeing them once they've been gone a while.
 

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
is a Pre-Contributor
The old Pokemon have their place - many of them are my favourites - but they're so over-exposed that they're just boring to me now. I just don't think there's much left to do with the species from Gen I and II any more save regional variants, but we've got enough from the first two gens that I don't think more are needed: Hoenn only has one, and Sinnoh none at all, so future regional variants should make use of those regions.
Problem: Playing part of the gimmick of the generation isn’t going to stop them from gainin access to the next one, even if it would not make any sense. Gengar and and the Kanto starters (not just Charizard mind you) got each one Gigantamax form despite already having Mega Evolution previously, hot helping is that Gengar’s Gigantamax form felt too similar in terms of design and how it make use of it.

Thankfully for G-Max Gengar’s case you can only trap non-Normal opponent by not existing but by using G-Max Terror, which Normal-type Pokémon are immune due to Ghost-typing the G-Max move have, making it a lot less painful to deal with. Still, it raised many eyebrows when first revealed.

I won’t be surprised if Pikachu and Eevee get a taste of “exclusive” versions of the next gimmick for Scarlet and Violet, whatever that would be. I do hope we won’t get too many repeats for who gets the “exclusive” version.
 
I think Green meant that they should apply the Gimmick of the Year to more 21st century Pokémon. Which reminds me, I noticed that people complained about the Kanto starters having megas because they overshadowed the Kalos starters, but in subsequent generations, the fully-evolved starters have a signature aspect of that gimmick: the exclusive Z-moves for Alola and Gigantamax forms for Galar. Was this an intentional response to criticism?

(Also, pet peeve: when people conflate "generation" with "region". Seriously, the Bulbapedia articles for generations are just overviews of the main series games and nothing else. Let me make a Venn diagram...)
 

QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
I think Green meant that they should apply the Gimmick of the Year to more 21st century Pokémon.
This, but they don't *have* to make a gimmick. Just include them more. I feel like newer mons tend to be the first to be excluded in Dexit scenarios but I'd rather we had more time with recently-introduced mons, not less.

In the "breakdown of regional Pokedexes" thread Kanto basically always dominates. It'll never happen, but my ideal regional dex would be about 15% Kanto, 85% everyone else.
 
Which reminds me, I noticed that people complained about the Kanto starters having megas because they overshadowed the Kalos starters, but in subsequent generations, the fully-evolved starters have a signature aspect of that gimmick: the exclusive Z-moves for Alola and Gigantamax forms for Galar. Was this an intentional response to criticism?
Considering there was a mix of Megas mostly between Generations 1-4, while Z-Moves and Gigantmaxes got only Kanto+New Region with exception of G-Max Garbador and Melmetal, I don't think the criticisms were fully addressed. Even then, the Alolan Legendary Duo and the Galarian Starters had to wait until an expansion to receive their region's gimmick.
 
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I have a whopper. Put down the pitchforks! I'm *not* condoning the Dexit disaster.

Right from the beginning I, in all honesty disagreed with keeping everything. I won't undersell the historical significance. GS was unique. Yeah RPG character import/migration was old hat (Wizardry etc), but maintaining a whole party lineup on a large scale had never been done before - or since (all these years no other non-Pokemon game has tried). It was also instrumental to reinforce loyalty. Players got to cherish their favorite team over generations.

The downside is being in some ways too inflexible. Traditional games were obliged to include every monster, along with their moves, abilities, and assorted elements (like species-specific items). Even if compromises elsewhere had to be made. An approaching production deadline? Something else was scrapped to ensure the Pokemon were ready. The developers bored of revisiting the same critters? Too bad. A big idea time-consuming to implement on hundreds of Pokemon (imagine a Metronome user getting individualize animations for every move)? Don't count on it.
 
I have a whopper. Put down the pitchforks! I'm *not* condoning the Dexit disaster.

Right from the beginning I, in all honesty disagreed with keeping everything. I won't undersell the historical significance. GS was unique. Yeah RPG character import/migration was old hat (Wizardry etc), but maintaining a whole party lineup on a large scale had never been done before - or since (all these years no other non-Pokemon game has tried). It was also instrumental to reinforce loyalty. Players got to cherish their favorite team over generations.

The downside is being in some ways too inflexible. Traditional games were obliged to include every monster, along with their moves, abilities, and assorted elements (like species-specific items). Even if compromises elsewhere had to be made. An approaching production deadline? Something else was scrapped to ensure the Pokemon were ready. The developers bored of revisiting the same critters? Too bad. A big idea time-consuming to implement on hundreds of Pokemon (imagine a Metronome user getting individualize animations for every move)? Don't count on it.
I honestly feel the same way. I was kind of bummed that some of the Pokemon were missing, but it's nothing to be too sad about. As I stated somewhere on here, I hate Sinnoh Pokemon and that's kind of all PLA has to offer. So I learned to like some of them, at least until I could get new Pokemon to replace them, and eventually came to appreciate the small selection that it has. Dexit may have been very controversial in the SwSh days, but I for one didn't really care much. Even if they weren't using all new models, having 880(?) or so Pokemon in the game all at once is kind of ridiculous.
 
Well yeah, people today with basic programming skills can rebuild the original games better than ever. There's plenty of Rom hacks that prove this. Technology is wonderful and makes a mockery of the original games.

But that's like saying the Wright Brothers aircraft is shit. I mean yeah, by today's standards it is. But that isn't really fair. I could go to Walmart / Cabellas and buy the cheapest gun they sell and immediately become the deadliest warrior on the planet in the year 1400. But that says nothing about my skills or abilities, just that technology makes things outdated.

SwSh were, almost objectively speaking, the worst Pokemon games of all time accounting for technology. They have fewer Pokemon than games released a DECADE ago, no real story mode outside of "fight gym, walk 10 minutes, tap A as characters talk, repeat until game ends", cut moves / Pokemon that is unprecedented in the series, Online play that makes Starcraft 1998 look more advanced, countless terrible unpopular gameplay decisions like mandatory battle time, mandatory XP share, and dexit, paid DLC that takes 30 minutes to beat, cut Megas, and arguably the worst gimmick ever Dynamax. The only good thing I can say about them is they're graphically better than any game before them but given the hardware difference it would be hard not to. It's an insult to the fans that this is the crap the world's most profitable franchise gives us.

The games were clearly rushed and trash. Yeah by 20 YEAR technology standards they're better than the original games but that's a really low bar to clear.
I agree with a lot of this, but I notably disagree with quite a few things. The SWSH DLC isn't that short, and Crown Tundra is pretty meaty, with an entire multiplayer Roguelike mode which is super fun.

Controversially, I like Dynamax. I've always seen it as not "worse" than usual Pokemon, but just *different*. It shifts the game in a way that is fun in certain formats, especially Doubles. I know some Doubles players always tell me "nah dmax ruined vgc!!!" but the fact is, many top players in VGC have talked about how Dmax shifted the meta in a good way. It basically countered a lot of measures that made VGC more annoying, particularly weakening Fake Out. I'd argue that VGC was very fun before the DLC.

I also don't take issue with cut Pokemon or moves as long as it's done smartly. This is controversial, but yes, I'm down with even competitively relevant moves being removed as long as it's bad for the meta. In my opinion, Pursuit is not good for competitive Pokemon, and I'm glad it's gone from the game.

Another thing, I think SWSH displays an issue Smogon has in how we operate. No matter what the games do, they cannot really change how a Pokemon plays without effecting others.

I think Clefable is a perfect example. It doesn't make sense that a Gen 3 event move is the only way to have a competitive Clefable in-game, and it's part of what makes Clefable pretty insane unless you have specific counters. It's a good thing that... Clefable didn't get it until Home, while still having healing. Unfortunately, due to how Smogon operates, as long as we have transferring and moves not being removed, Game Freak cannot nerf individual Pokemon by removing specific moves from their movepool.

Clefable with Soft-boiled is banned in official ranked formats, clearly they don't balance around now 20 year old event moves, but it remains a core thing to Clefable's play in Smogon, to the point where it's really frustrating. Especially in the casual official formats where it, and Minimize, are allowed.

I also have never agreed that Dex Cuts are a bad idea for competitive. Again, just needs to be responsible. Gliscor would arguably make current meta very toxic for instance (Lando-T but with recovery, no meaningful status and basically the same utility), or Greninja, etc.

Issue is that the DLC brought back like all of the legends.

this was ranty, I know, A
 

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