Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]

[DecafWizard]

advaita I think one of the earlier rounds of suspecting might go to Iron Valiant as well. Excellent offensive and defensive typing, as well as the ability to run either a physical set with something like swords dance / close combat / knockoff or a special set with moonblast / aura sphere. It seems extremely hard to actually wall

 

[InvisibleWater]

Florges @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Wish / Synthesis
- Protect / Giga Drain

With a Grass Tera Type, Florges actually has an ability in Singles. Could be interesting to try, assuming Terastalization stays legal for more than a week.

 

[Avira]

Here are some calcs for Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao against the best resists to them that will be in the game, not necessarily the meta. I gave Roaring Moon a Careful nature with 124 Attack EVs for a guaranteed OHKO on Chi-Yu with Earthquake with the rest in Special Defense and enough speed to outspeed Timid Chi-Yu.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 173-204 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -1 0 HP / 172+ SpD Roaring Moon: 159-187 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -1 0 HP / 164+ SpD Roaring Moon: 277-328 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 231-273 (44.9 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 450-530 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Psychic vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Azumarill: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Azumarill: 299-352 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Chi-Yu Psychic vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Azumarill: 328-386 (81.1 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Liquidation vs. 4 HP / Def Chi-Yu: 254-302 (100.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This shows just how ridiculous Chi-Yu's breaking power is that there are basically only 4 switch-ins to it in the entire tier, and a lot of these sets are pretty bad and specialized only for living Chi-Yu's nuclear attacks. Ting-Lu has 155 Base HP, 80 Base Special Defense, and debuffs Special Attack, and still Specs Fire Blast still 2HKOes with a small amount of chip, and +1 LO Fire Blast is a roll to OHKO.

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Night Slash vs. -1 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 135-160 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. -1 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 265-312 (69.1 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arcanine Burn Up vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Chien-Pao: 398-470 (131.7 - 155.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Ice Spinner vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tinkaton: 118-139 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Incineroar Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tinkaton: 205-242 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 326-386 (107.9 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 195-230 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Chien-Pao Psychic Fangs vs. -1 188 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 219-258 (56.4 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
68 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chien-Pao: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Chien-Pao is extremely restricting as well, and while it is a bit weaker than Chi-Yu, it is also a lot faster, has priority, and doesn't get stonewalled by Tyranitar.

Both of these mons should be banned as defensive counterplay is almost nonexistent.

 

[Suricata]

I Wonder whether the new item Energy Booster for paradox is a one-chance item or permanent?

 

[Eeveeto]

I Wonder whether the new item Energy Booster for paradox is a one-chance item or permanent?

It has already been confirmed to be consumable.

If Paradox Pokemon consumes the item, the boost works after it's switched out.
If there is Sun/Terrain, the boost works until Sun/Terrain ends.
If there are both, item is not consumer unless Sun/Terrain ends.

This does make Paradox less broken, but probably won't avoid Misdreavus's one Ban, that Stats and Typing are crazy.

 

[TR_Admin]

Shed Tail

The user creates a substitute for itself using its own HP before switching places with a party Pokémon in waiting. The substitue costs half ot the user's life.

Look like a quick ban to me, there is no way that u-turn + substitute + regenerator (cyclizard) isn't completely broken.

 

[Eeveeto]

Shed Tail

The user creates a substitute for itself using its own HP before switching places with a party Pokémon in waiting. The substitue costs half ot the user's life.

Look like a quick ban to me, there is no way that u-turn + substitute + regenerator (cyclizard) isn't completely broken.

It's half of the HP, not 1/4 what Cyclizar loses. Might still end up broken (more due to abussers than by itself), but since it loses more health than recovered by Regenerator, this is not a Quick Ban.

 

[earl]

Wonder how timbs are gonna fare in this metagame, given hazards are insanely distributed while removal is decidedly not. This will probably make them even more popular than they are this gen, and given some of the other goofy pivots introduced (like cyclizar), maybe they could end up banned and as a result give us a hazard-dominant metagame? could be interesting to see play out.

other thoughts: misdreavus is banned, its literally a spectrier with more then 2 attacks, and the recovery nerf is nonsensical but will be a nonfactor in most games regardless

 

[Eclairius]

Psychic / Fairy is not "excellent" defensively. Tapu Lele has some defensive utility but that's more-so due to how amazing Psychic Terrain is, not the typing itself. But outside of that you are spitting facts. Spirit Break / Close Combat / Swords Dance / Knock Off covers pretty much everything. You can even run STAB Zen Headbutt if you're worried about the aforementioned Toxapex walling you. Can anyone confirm if Energy Booster works like Beast Boost does? I was thinking you could EV Iron Valiant to boost Speed then follow it up with a Swords Dance.

Iron Valiant is Fighting/Fairy not Psychic/Fairy.

 

[specialstat]

Hi, forum!
In 2018 I remeber playing on a testing server of some sort (not accessible pressing Play button on Showdown). Let's Go matches were played with full candies, and, I think, that was being done to make... first ever LGPE viability rankings?
Will there be something similar for SV? And if so, how to access it? IIRC I accessed that Let's Go testing because some poketuber (could that be HDvee?) shared a link, I'm pretty confident I didn't find it myself.

 

[Eeveeto]

Ya I agree. Hazards will be dominant to the point where I feel Boots will be the best item. Keeping Toxic is great, but based on what you said its going to require more support to make work. It's not the same self-sufficient wall it was the past 2 gens. But I could definitely see it rising to A+ eventually because it can form nasty cores with some strong Knock Off users. Eject Button will definitely be the set to run.
Psychic / Fairy is not "excellent" defensively. Tapu Lele has some defensive utility but that's more-so due to how amazing Psychic Terrain is, not the typing itself. But outside of that you are spitting facts. Spirit Break / Close Combat / Swords Dance / Knock Off covers pretty much everything. You can even run STAB Zen Headbutt if you're worried about the aforementioned Toxapex walling you. Can anyone confirm if Energy Booster works like Beast Boost does? I was thinking you could EV Iron Valiant to boost Speed then follow it up with a Swords Dance.

Also I'd like to see some more discussion around these two Pokemon:

Houndstone || Ghost-type
Sand Rush x Fluffy
72 HP / 101 Atk / 100 Def / 50 SpA / 97 SpD / 68 Spe

Basculegion || Water / Ghost-type
Adaptability x Swift Swim x Mold Breaker
120 HP / 112 Atk / 65 Def / 80 SpA / 75 SpD / 78 Spe

Both of these weather abusers get the move Last Respects. This Ghost-type move is 50BP, but it gains an extra 50BP for every fainted member in your party. This means the move can reach a power level of 300BP before STAB.

Absolutely.
Fucking.
Insane.

Well, this one Move does look like a Quick Ban.

 

[Suricata]

It has already been confirmed to be consumable.

If Paradox Pokemon consumes the item, the boost works after it's switched out.
If there is Sun/Terrain, the boost works until Sun/Terrain ends.
If there are both, item is not consumer unless Sun/Terrain ends.

This does make Paradox less broken, but probably won't avoid Misdreavus's one Ban, that Stats and Typing are crazy.

Thanks!

 

[ochoagenalyn]

What do you guys think about Gholdengo's potential?

It has subpar speed but it sports a really good defensive and offensive typing (Ghost is very spammable and its signature move has 120 BP) and some decent defenses. I'm thinking it would play very similarly to Aegislash except it has a little more firepower, speed, and recovery. Lik Aegi, it can function as a semi-bulky Choice Specs or a setup breaker with leftovers.

Plus it's the only Pokemon that blocks BOTH rapid spin and Defog so it could be valuable to hazard-stacking teams which I think would be a popular play style in Gen 9

 

[Eeveeto]

What do you guys think about Gholdengo's potential?

It has subpar speed but it sports a really good defensive and offensive typing (Ghost is very spammable and its signature move has 120 BP) and some decent defenses. I'm thinking it would play very similarly to Aegislash except it has a little more firepower, speed, and recovery. Lik Aegi, it can function as a semi-bulky Choice Specs or a setup breaker with leftovers.

Plus it's the only Pokemon that blocks BOTH rapid spin and Defog so it could be valuable to hazard-stacking teams which I think would be a popular play style in Gen 9

Is the Defog part confirmed though? Clear Body for example prevents the Evasion drop from Defog, but hazards are still removed.

 

[Eclairius]

Is the Defog part confirmed though? Clear Body for example prevents the Evasion drop from Defog, but hazards are still removed.

While I don't have proof of it, the phrasing is quite different from clear body.
Clear body: "Prevents other Pokémon's moves or Abilities from lowering the Pokémon's stats."
Good as gold:" A body of pure, solid gold gives the Pokémon full immunity to other Pokémon’s status moves."
The phrasing indicate something closer to Dark-types' immunity to prankster than it is to Clear body.

 

[Eeveeto]

While I don't have proof of it, the phrasing is quite different from clear body.
Clear body: "Prevents other Pokémon's moves or Abilities from lowering the Pokémon's stats."
Good as gold:" A body of pure, solid gold gives the Pokémon full immunity to other Pokémon’s status moves."
The phrasing indicate something closer to Dark-types' immunity to prankster than it is to Clear body.

I mean, yes. But what does status mean? All Status moves or things like Spore, WoW, etc. Besides that, Defog affects both sides of the field. So, maybe it could even be detrimental, removing hazards from your side, but not Gholdengo's one.

Only OU relevant Deffoger will be Corviknight though, but its still important to know how that ability works.

 

[Rasche]

Is the Defog part confirmed though? Clear Body for example prevents the Evasion drop from Defog, but hazards are still removed.

I believe its ability works like prankster status moves vs dark types. So dengo is immune to things like taunt, defog, leech seed etc...

 

[Eclairius]

I mean, yes. But what does status mean? All Status moves or things like Spore, WoW, etc. Besides that, Defog affects both sides of the field. So, maybe it could even be detrimental, removing hazards from your side, but not Gholdengo's one.

Only OU relevant Deffoger will be Corviknight though, but its still important to know how that ability works.

I think it would be blocked entirely, immunity was shown to do that. When you Rapid Spin into a Ghost-type, immunity block the hazard removal despite that not affecting the target's side in any way.
Edit: Prankster defog into a dark type is probably a good analog.
Edit2: I asked in the Data thread if someone could test the Defog interaction with Good as gold. I'll relay the results if someone pick up my request.

 

[Suricata]

I Heard that GF press a more harsh restrictions on Pokemon transmitted from past generation that all skills would be removed automatically. Is This Ture? And if so, will Ps follow this change so that the skill pool would be changed a lot?

 

[Nickos]

I Heard that GF press a more harsh restrictions on Pokemon transmitted from past generation that all skills would be removed automatically. Is This Ture? And if so, will Ps follow this change so that the skill pool would be changed a lot?

It's been said that HOME will reset all transferred Pokemon's movesets to whatever they would know at that level in the current games, if it's impossible to get a, let's say, Knock Off Weavile from Gen 8, then Smogon will follow that and won't allow Knock Off Weavile in Gen 9.

If it's impossible to get a Pokémon with a certain move on cartridge, then Smogon won't allow it

 

[Rasche]

I think it would be blocked entirely, immunity was shown to do that. When you Rapid Spin into a Ghost-type, immunity block the hazard removal despite that not affecting the target's side in any way.
Edit: Prankster defog into a dark type is probably a good analog.
Edit2: I asked in the Data thread if someone could test the Defog interaction with Good as gold. I'll relay the results if someone pick up my request.

Probably best to also request in the mechanic research thread. On that note, it seems Kalalokki has already tested the interaction between good as gold and defog and confirmed it completely blocks defog and even moves such as perish song. The latter is very interesting as prankster perish song on a dark type still causes both to be impacted. Further testing is probably needed to see the full list of interactions and to clarify if all these interactions are 100% accurate.

 

[Local Dog]

I swear this gen looks so insane

I have no idea how things will play out. It's anyone's game in the first few weeks. I don't think GF ever went this wild in designing Mons, moves and abilities

 

[Eclairius]

Probably best to also request in the mechanic research thread. On that note, it seems Kalalokki has already tested the interaction between good as gold and defog and confirmed it completely blocks defog and even moves such as perish song. The latter is very interesting as prankster perish song on a dark type still causes both to be impacted. Further testing is probably needed to see the full list of interactions and to clarify if all these interactions are 100% accurate.

I completly forgot about the mechanic research thread. Oops.
The Haze result (not blocked) is peculiar, since unlike helping hand it does affect the oppenement. Its a meaningful one too since that means Toxapex isn't completly setup fodder for Gholdengo.

 

[chincmeow]

I think Snow needs more attention.
Slowking is the best possible setter this archetype could have asked for in SV, being one of the few viable bulky waters left and having a type that covers all of ice's weaknesses. Moreover, it will be able to setup snow multiple times during the match, negating the weather of opposing teams and having an advantage against Torkoal who is looking to be the most common setter because of its synergy with past paradox mons.
Best of all Slowking does that while doing its usual Future Sight-Teleport(Chilly Reception)-Regenerator thing.
Then we have Iron Bundle who has 124 SpA, 136 Speed, surprisingly good physical bulk under snow, perfect dual STAB combo with Freeze-Dry/Blizzard and Hydro Pump/Surf, Aurora Veil and Flip Turn. And in the event Electric Terrain is up it's the fastest thing in the game.
Cetitan is hilariously fast and bulky under snow and can be a wincon with Belly Drum+Ice Shard.
Baxcalibur is basically an improved Kyurem-Black with a signature move that is a better Outrage, burn immunity from its ability, EQ and Ice Shard. If Terastal is not banned it can abuse Electric Tera Blast to get past water types.

I have the feeling snow teams will play like a ungodly combination of Baton Pass Chains and VoltTurn teams with these guys and I won't be surprised if at some point something that makes this core broken will be banned. My money is on Iron Bundle because of how stupidly optimized it is but Chilly Reception messing with all the other weathers is also a consideration.

I'm not even going to mention Chien-Pao, that thing has a big flashing "ban me on day 1" neon sign pointed at it.

Also fuck Lando and Pex. They won't stand a chance against this archetype.

 

[1LDK]

This set is just bad all over, honestly.

If you want some janky sub+restore set, you probably want to run poison heal with sub seed, and if you run technician, you want something like life orb to also boost your fighting moves, and also have Mach punch which is like 70% of the reason why you use technician breloom

Dont worry its bait >:3
But for real has a TON of options of self healing in a meta where it seems its gonna be hard, it has Leech Seed, Synthesis, Drain Punch, Poison Heal (Knock Off Proof) and even has unreliable and bad options like gigadrain or rest, with spore, and sub, you have open options, and even with the lost of toxic, it fucking has Poison Powder and Stun Spore just to flex, so yeah, im high in the breloom wagon

Now changing into a 180, i wanna talk about Lando T, he still has SR but
No toxic?
No Knock Off?
No defog?
No Bitches?
I honestly think Lando is no longer the "slap this and all your problems are gone" because he has no support tools anymore
with that said, since Lando is no longer cool, that means is no longer cool to hate him, so my point is, he needs new sets, i can see him with the suicide Lead set, Choice Scarf or maybe even Choice Band because 145 attack its 145 attack