Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Fancy1]

This might’ve been mentioned already but I think all three of the starters are extremely viable

Meowscarda seems like a kind of physical Greninja, who offers a great speed tier which I think is important in a very offense heavy meta game
this is the set I’ve been using

Meowscarada @ Choice Band
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Play Rough / Spikes

this set aims to allow meowscarada to pivot into teammates while threatening a lot of Pokémon out with its powerful dual stabs

Quaquaval @ Mystic Water
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aqua Step
- Aqua Jet
- Wave Crash
- Close Combat

This sets a little bit more wonky but it’s worked for me so far, Quaquaval seems like an amazing revenge killer and set up sweeper at that. capitalizing off of low health opponents with aqua step as well as a moxie boost, mystic water boots it’s revenge killing capabilities with aqua jet for faster opponents.

Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torch Song
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Slack Off

This allows Skeldirge to be an amazing bulky set up sweeper, with already decent defense + wisp we invest heavily into special defense to allow Skeledirge to be as bulky as possible. torchsong is a powerful stab that will boost your special attack and can sometimes facilitate a sweep

 

[TheRealBigC]

Following up from my post yesterday about Iron Hands, I want to talk about Satan's Little Helper a bit.

Iron Bundle is an absurdly strong presence in SV, with incredibly strong offences of 124 base Sp Atk. and 136 base Spd. Its speed reaches 408 with max investment, meaning it is the third fastest Pokémon in the current meta tied with Barraskewda, coming in just behind Dragapult in #2 and Electrode in #1. However, considering Electrode is in fact Electrode, in reality the only Pokémon consistently faster than Iron Bundle outside of weather is Dragapult. Iron Bundle's speed is absolutely incredible, allowing to outspeed and nuke notoriously fast threats like Flutter Mane and Chien-Pao. Its speed is boosted even further under Electric Terrain due to its ability Quark Drive, which can make it an excellent reverse sweeper on Terrain teams. But of course, speed isn't everything; this is where Iron Bundle's devastating offensive prowess comes in.

Iron Bundle @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- U-turn

The comprehensive list of mons in the current SV OU meta who can safely switch into the combo of Specs Freeze-Dry and Hydro Pump coming off 124 base Sp Atk is as follows:

Specs Iron Bundle Switch-Ins

Sp Def Abomasnow
Blissey
Sp Def Corv
Max Sp Def Cryogonal
Sp Def Florges
AV Goodra
AV Iron Hands
AV Kingambit
Sp Def Scream Tail

This is a very small list indeed, and out of those the mons you will be realistically encountering with any frequency are Blissey, Sp Def Corv and AV Iron Hands. And of course, if you know the opponent has one of these, you can simply U-Turn out. Ice Beam is there if the opponent doesn't have Water mons so you can make use of the extra power if needed, but it could be swapped out for Tera Blast Fighting if you want. Given the perfect coverage of Freeze-Dry and Hydro Pump however, I don't consider this to be a good use of your team's Terastilization.

Iron Bundle also has suprisingly decent physical bulk, which can allow it to live through some priority. Here are some calcs:

Iron Bundle Priority Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Bundle: 102-121 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Bundle: 37-43 (14.6 - 16.9%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Bundle: 193-228 (76.2 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Bundle: 229-273 (90.5 - 107.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Bundle: 144-171 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Tera-Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dewgong: 176-208 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In my opinion, Specs is the only set you should consider running on Iron Bundle. While you could use Booster Energy or Scarf to outspeed Dragapult and various other +1 mons, you will really miss the raw power of Specs and the opponent will have an easier time switching in and dealing with you. You could potentially run an Agility set with a Modest nature and Booster Energy, but you'll have a very hard time finding an opportunity to set up given Iron Bundle's relatively meager bulk. Encore could potentially be used to find an opportunity, but this seems very situational and gimmicky at face value; maybe snow support could be used to facilitate this?

The only real glaring flaw of Iron Bundle is its Stealth Rock weakness, which is definitely unfortunate. However, I find that given the incredibly fast speed of the current SV meta it is quite difficult to get Rocks up safely. There are also several great hazard removers in the meta in Great Tusk, Iron Treads and Corviknight, who are all great supports for Iron Bundle. I'll repost my example Electric Terrain team here if you need a simple Iron Bundle team:

Electric Terrain Team

Iron Bundle @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- U-turn

Pincurchin (M) @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Surge
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Spikes
- Recover
- Surf

Iron Valiant @ Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spirit Break
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch
- Swords Dance

Iron Treads @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock

Iron Jugulis @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Hurricane
- Fire Blast
- Flash Cannon

Iron Hands @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Drain Punch
- Heavy Slam
- Volt Switch

tl;dr you can't switch into the funny penguin

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Or a ban in the item, since I think everything would be op with it, imagine band+protective pads but you can switch moves, all mons would run it and it would be op

I don't think the item needs to be banned, 1.5x is great but it's not game breaking, and the boost only applies to punching moves exclusively. Not to mention it has no effect on Iron Fist mons

 

[G-Luke]

Sure, tell me which pokemon here wouldn't be op if they could run punching glove,
View attachment 467246

Breloom would probably finally be a strong OU Pokémon, with a priority move that near matches up with it's main nuking move in Bullet Punch. Even with this boost, birds still clap it, bulky Poisons still wall it and bulky Grasses give it a hard time. Good mon, not broken.

Crabominable would suck ass. 43 Speed, poor defensive typing and no bulk, it would be a terrible addition to a team and is largely outclassed by other Fighting types.

Gallade has no reason to run this item, it's wholly outclassed by Sharpness Sacred Sword, which boosts both of it's STAB moves and multiple coverage options are boosted. Not broken, doesn't even want it.

Hariyama still would not be OU, as it's best trait as a Fighting type is being a status absorber and possible Knock Off eater, but with Punching Glove that's kinda diminished. I can't see Punching Glove rivalling Guts tbh. Not broken, still sucks.

Hawlucha's best sets rely on utilizing Unburden to sweep, so carrying an u consumable item would not be adequate. Not broken, wouldn't use it.

In Iron Valiant's case, Punching Glove is outclassed by Energy Booster, which buffs all of it's attacks, or can possibly buff speed, instead of buffing 1 or 2 moves on Iron. Not broken, wouldn't use it.

Lucario would be pretty cool, kinda like a mini Breloom in that regard, since some of it's best moves are indeed punching moves. Meteor Mash is gonna STING. Does this make it broken? No. While it makes Lucario much stronger, it still faces alot of the things that made it not be OU in the first place, such as being frail and lacklustre speed. Not broken, very viable.

Medicham isn't broken with Punching Glove, it is in fact quite mediocre and would always prefer LO or Choice items to strengthen it's entire kit. Not to mention it's an NU mon. Not broken, wouldn't use it and would be bad.

Passimian would not be broken, in fact, Passimian sucks. None of Passimian's notable moves are punching moves. In fact, the only punching moves it gets are Drain Punch and Mega Punch. It would rather a Choice item to either revenge kill or wallbreak, and is outclassed by a million other Pokémon in that regard. Not broken, wouldn't use, not even viable regardless.

Toxicroak falls in a very similar boat with it's NU friends, as it would prefer the consistent boosting of Life Orb than boosting Drain Punch alone. Even with LO it lacks the power to make it to OU anyways. Not broken, wouldn't use, unviable.

To address what you mentioned in bottom, Dragonite wouldn't be broken, it loves Heavy Duty Boots too much.

Iron Thorns like Valiant would just run Energy Booster. Not dropping that for Glove.

Ursaluna prefers Flame Orb for all the same reasons Hariyama prefers it. Wouldn't run Glove.

Hoopa likes the flexibility of the item it chooses, Punching Glove is too niche for one specific niche move to work for it.

Pawmot strikes me as a Pokémon that would finally be OU viable, as imo without Revival Blessing which will surely get banned once it's implemented, I can't see it being ran here. This item though gives it new lease on life. Would run, wouldn't be broken on it.

Yeah Scizor probably would be nuts, Iron Hands would unironically run this and would be very annoying at the very least and Urshifus are broken already even before this item comes to play.

 

[alephgalactus]

everyone over the course of this weekend
View attachment 467207

I’m now running Imprison on Flutter Mane specifically to beat opposing Flutter Mane. This thing needs to go immediately. All other priorities should be secondary right now.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Just a few more hours lads, until OU council gets on Twitch, and hopefuly banishes the ghastly abomination called Flutter Mane to shadow realm!

 

[Triangles]

I've played a fuckload of gen 9 and am currently top 5 on ladder. I know there's going to be a load of bans pretty soon, but thought I'd share some observations about various things so far.

General Meta Observations: Offense is dominant obviously, with a lot of 'broken checks broken' going on. Games are fast and you have to choose carefully how you're gonna sack things and use your tera to either be a big threat or dodge a big threat. I still think defense and balance have their place though, there's a lot of ways you can tech your team out to beat the big boys, and stall certainly has some new good tools in Clodsire, Dondozo, and even Skeledirge.

Tera: Surprisingly, not broken and actually pretty fun in terms of strategizing how you're going to use it. There's loads of cool applications, from simply powering up your Stab to have a super strong sweeper like Water Palafin or Dark Chien Pao, to defensively tera typing to Normal to protect yourself from Houndstone/Flutter mane. You want to use it similarly to Dynamax, to get yourself a big swing turn. I hope this stays because it adds a really interesting and creative dimension to the game, but I have a feeling that Finch is gonna Finch it.

Palafin: In my opinion, the most broken new mon. The Taunt Bulk Up set is really really really good, so tanky and in the era of no Scald, very safe. This mon is not actually a very good mon on HO or offense in general because the turn to switch it out is quite exploitable, it's much better on bulky balance teams. There's very few things in the tier that can actually stop Taunt BU Jet Punch Drain Punch, only like Amoonguss and Dragonite really. Taunt beats the Unaware mons. Choice sets suck though. Probably needs a ban.

Iron Bundle: The second most broken new mon. Absolute statistical freak, and Hydro/Freeze Dry is literally all the coverage you need. Sub Agility Modest Booster Energy is a killer HO set. Nothing apart from Bliss really walls it. Probably needs a ban.

Gholdengo: Unexpectedly, the best ghost type. A late bolter on high ladder teams, I'm seeing a ton of them. Blocking Defog from Corv with its ability makes this guy the ultimate hazard protector on offense, and Balloon improves the Great Tusk mu. Also a very useful anti stall mon, I've enjoyed Tera Psychic Psyshock to blow out Clodsire. Maybe needs a ban?

Chien Pao: Statistical freak, incredibly powerful and fast. Sucker Punch is a clutch move in this offense dominated meta. Probably needs a ban.

Great Tusk: In a tier with not many Flying types, this guy is a beast. Booster energy sets hit incredibly hard, and lefties sets are incredibly tanky and safe. I think this guy is a bit of a problem.

Flutter Mane: Not actually that broken. Well, maybe it is, but there's a few ways to get around it, like defensively Tera-ing against it or having your strong priority users. Clodsire is a good bet vs it too, if it isnt running tera psychic.

Houndstone: Maybe slightly overrated, especially now that Tera Normal is gaining popularity. Will probably become better after first ban wave.

Shed Tail: Incredibly overrated. Sure, giving something a sub freely is very strong, but the compromise is that one of your pokemon slots is taken up by an otherwise useless mon. In general, teams can do enough to beat down the Missy or whatever that a sub is passed to, and then later on just kill the useless Cyclizar.

Old favourites: Dragonite is very nice currently, especially as there's not much of a choice of birds - E Speed Tera Normal has also added another dimension to things too, and Multiscale is a key ability in the offense meta. Corviknight is solid as ever, though has taken a bit of a hit as a defogger with the rise in Gholdengo. Garchomp is an awesome hazard setter, safe as ever, and has particularly good synergy with Gholdengo. Toxapex is absolutely useless and dead in the water without Scald/Knock - I was surprised at just how much this thing sucks.

There's a lot more I could say about various things that are good and various things that suck, but for now this is a start.

 

[Missingno.1998]

I want to talk about Brambleghast for a second. It has been surprisingly useful in this meta, and catches a lot of people off guard.

It has all the tools it needs to counter some of the best mons in the game. It is a Ghost type which allows it to spin block and not only that, it has Rapid Spin itself which is rare and boosts its decent speed stat even more, heck, it can even set up Spikes too, Infiltrator helps against the Shed Tail substitute mons running around, Strength Sap to neuter strong physical attackers, Grass coverage for Palafin, Leech Seed to help weaken things it can't fully break, and it has Shadow Sneak which allows it to comfortably take on Flutter Mane or Dragapult with its base 115 attack.

It is held back by its low bulk, but it has a lot of great tools to work with and I think is being slept on.

 

[Msousagamer]

Personally I think y'all are underestimating how OP a band that allows you to change moves is, specially when you can't punish with walls that have rocky helmet, etc...
Until it is tested let's wait and see

 

[Bakugames]

Personally I think y'all are underestimating how OP a band that allows you to change moves is, specially when you can't punish with walls that have rocky helmet, etc...
Until it is tested let's wait and see

Useless on the best possible user (melmetal), only affects a select group of moves, other users tend to be kinda bad, and if theyre good they may just prefer other items. It's a fun addition, I do think it'll get usage, but I don't see it being test worthy, let alone ban worthy

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Iron Bundle: The second most broken new mon. Absolute statistical freak, and Hydro/Freeze Dry is literally all the coverage you need. Sub Agility Modest Booster Energy is a killer HO set. Nothing apart from Bliss really walls it. Probably needs a ban.

So after the first few bans for stuff like palafin and flutter mane happen, I am going to guess that Iron Bundle is probably next on the chopping block. Mon is busted as all hell, may need a suspect/quickban down the road... (I saw the calcs, they are NUTS.)

 

[Msousagamer]

Iron Bundle: The second most broken new mon. Absolute statistical freak, and Hydro/Freeze Dry is literally all the coverage you need. Sub Agility Modest Booster Energy is a killer HO set. Nothing apart from Bliss really walls it. Probably needs a ban.

Being real, everytime I deal with this mon I have to tera or predict in order to kill/make him switch out, and many times he does switch out and threatens me later so it's really hard to counter it

 

[Bugboy]

Not a huge fan of the idea that tera should be banned because it is “unpredictable” (of course maybe it should be banned for other reasons lol). But it seems way too early to be able to properly assess whether something is unpredictable. The meta has barely matured or settled, nothing is predictable yet. Right now it is unpredictable because you’ve only played 50 games and aren’t used to it lol.

I personally would be sad to see tera acted on too rashly. This unironically is the most creative and enjoyable gimmick Pokémon has ever had (megas were cool, but not creative).

 

[Finchinator]

We will be going over the results tomorrow around noon EST on Smogon's twitch, where we will be having a Smogon Cast discussing the metagame. Any applicable ban posts will also go up around this time, too. Stay tuned!

Two Pokemon will be banned.

 

[Bugboy]

Two Pokemon will be banned.

I’m betting flutter mane + houndstone or palafin. Maybe chien-pao but it seems more on the fence.

 

[lydian]

Two Pokemon will be banned.

finch stop w the sneak peaks, just say what got / will get banned or don't ._.

 

[Beaf Cultist]

Nobody’s acting rashly on Tera lmao. The meta has been played and the mechanic is broken. Trying to pick apart individual reasons for its brokenness is a waste of time and trying to save it is a fruitless endeavor. An OM with legal Tera sounds like an amazing idea and I hope that’s the route we end up taking.

Calling Flutter Mane + Palafin btw

 

[Finchinator]

finch stop w the sneak peaks, just say what got / will get banned or don't ._.

As I said, they will be released at noon today.

People asked me how many Pokemon would be getting banned and I had no reason to hide that info, so I went public with it.

 

[sufys]

Looking forward to seeing what these 2 Pokemon are.
Definitely Flutter Mane but the second one is anyone's guess.
I am hoping the second will be Palafin though, the BU set is incredibly oppressive lol.

 

[Msousagamer]

After flutter, Palafin right now is the one who might deserve to be banned the most since the bulk up set is that that op, but I am able to see iron bundle since palafin checks might get more common the moment that thing is gone. I'd be sad to lose my fluffy doggo so yeah...

 

[Fancy1]

Dang, I understand palafin is really good but that shit is fun as hell to use

 

[alephgalactus]

Two Pokemon will be banned.

I was hoping for Cheater Tail Shed Tail too because that move takes literally zero skill to use on a mon with 121 base Speed and Regenerator—seriously, who at Game Freak looked at this and thought it was OK—but I suppose Flutter Mane and [insert second mon here] will suffice for now.

Flutter Mane: Not actually that broken.

This is the most bizarre, profoundly incorrect take I’ve ever seen from someone who’s top 5 on any ladder. Respectfully, you are straight-up wrong about this no matter what your ladder ranking is. Shed Tail is also not “incredibly overrated” and if you think it is you should probably re-examine how you got to where you are as a player. I do agree that Gholdengo is one of the most solid mons in the meta, but I don’t think it needs to be looked at right now—definitely should be at least considered for a suspect in the future if Tera stays.

 

[1LDK]

My guess is Flutter mane and the fucking zucaritas tiger, never had the chance to run palafin but 5 bucks walls it without ice punch

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Shed Tail: Incredibly overrated. Sure, giving something a sub freely is very strong, but the compromise is that one of your pokemon slots is taken up by an otherwise useless mon. In general, teams can do enough to beat down the Missy or whatever that a sub is passed to, and then later on just kill the useless Cyclizar.

There's always multi-strike moves, these can continue to hit the pokemon after it breaks the substitute, besides the pokemon that its immune or resists that multi-strike's move type.

 

[Finchinator]

Palafin will not be banned in the first wave. There is likely to be another wave next week probably (do not quote me on this -- it's all a rough process right now) and it will be voted on again, but for now it stays. Obviously that is subject to change.