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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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I took the survey but probably would have preferred if there was a middle option between tiering or not tiering of tera. Basically, for me a lot of the new mechanics and new pokemon were pretty hype. But the metagame has kind of devolved and I don't know for sure what the answer is. I'm pretty sure gholdengo has to go, can't imagine playing for 4 years with this thing in the game. Tera is kind of broken the more I play with it... but I also like it a lot. I mean it's super fun when you tera something and oneshot their tank. But it's also kind of frustrating when it happens to you. Maybe it's an ubers mechanic rather than an ou one.
I think a core problem is that game freak is pushing the power of stuff in a way that can't be interacted with. So for example, skeledirge is unaware and gets a fire attack that boosts its special attack basically for free. It also gets recovery and will o wisp. The entire gen is basically full of mons like this that literally win the game on their own unless you answer them in a specific way. But the pokedex is so limited that if you just keep banning everything whatever is still around will just take over.
What I would like to see is a gholdengo ban and then see what the meta does for like a week and go from there. There is literally no world where gholdengo doesn't go to ubers. Once pokemon home is out it's more reasonable but as it is it just restricts teambuilding so much. But I would prefer no action on tera until gholdengo is gone and we see what it's like.
I think a core problem is that game freak is pushing the power of stuff in a way that can't be interacted with. So for example, skeledirge is unaware and gets a fire attack that boosts its special attack basically for free. It also gets recovery and will o wisp. The entire gen is basically full of mons like this that literally win the game on their own unless you answer them in a specific way. But the pokedex is so limited that if you just keep banning everything whatever is still around will just take over.
What I would like to see is a gholdengo ban and then see what the meta does for like a week and go from there. There is literally no world where gholdengo doesn't go to ubers. Once pokemon home is out it's more reasonable but as it is it just restricts teambuilding so much. But I would prefer no action on tera until gholdengo is gone and we see what it's like.
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Because tera breaks it, yeah cat is out of the bag now that everyone realized the moment you use tera fairy its busted as fuck and there's still plenty more to figure out or are held back by these threats.
Its another case of you can't prep for an espathra because you need a dark/bug/ghost type for its base form, something there's plenty of in the tier, then it tera fairies and now you're unprepared unless you bring a scizor, and now you've only got 4 slots to deal with espathra's team on top of it. Espathra isn't the only setup sweeper broke by screens/shed tail, you can use a volcarona, chien-pao, dragonite, fucking tera electric latias when DLC comes, etc. Espathra gets banned then we're looking at even more replacing it until fucking tera fairy venomoth becomes a thing. The mechanic breaks it, among other things, that's not an espathra problem that's a tera+shed tail problem given its not the only abuser of them.
At best its a UU tier mon without tera, we already saw it drop before everyone figured out the meta strat of tera fairy and espathra behind sub and screens.
And again, the solution is something we either remove the mechanic that fixes everything at once, or ban several pokemon that otherwise weren't problematic, which waste the entire fucking generation's time.
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I'm generally leaning towards Tera should stay due to the teambuilding aspects, but I really don't think we should be considering a half-measure with Tera. Either ban it completely or don't restrict it at all. Have we learned nothing from Aldaron's Proposal and Baton Pass? Gen 5 is still making several metagame-wide policy decisions (A, B, C)--some even this year--even though the games are a decade old. Baton Pass has had so many discussions spanning a decade and pretty much every generation as well (A). Just click on that link and see how many threads have been created. Let's learn from history and not turn Gen 9 into the next Gen 5.
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That’s literally what we did in gen 7. There are several Pokémon that got banned because a specific Z move set pushed them over the edge (Naganadel I feel is a really good example of this). I can think of 3, maybe 4 mons right now that are broken because of Tera, which honestly isn’t that bad all things considered. Complaining that Pokémon got too strong because of a new tool they got is silly, it happens every generation when new move tutors get added mid generation, which has been happening since at least generation 4. Greninja was very strong but still OU until it got gunk shot, Dragapult got banned in NatDex because of ghostium Z, etc.
I would agree with you if there were 6 or more things obviously pushed over the edge exclusively by terastallization, but currently the meta is full of things contributing to the Pokémon that are on the radar, it’s a bit of a stretch to pin Tera as the obvious reason things are broken right now, especially with the nonsense of shed tail and revival blessing throwing everything out of wack
In prior gens those pokemon were giving up their items, so it wasn't worth it on almost every pokemon. Tera has no cost. It is omnipresent. If you want 6 things tera breaks, Dragonite, Annihilape, Skill Bird, Dragapult, Roaring Moon and Chi Yu are broken by tera. Yes shed tail and screens enables them a lot, but there are hugely more reliable checks to all of them if they couldn't tera. Aside from Chi Yu, I don't think any of these would be remotely looking at a ban this soon, if not for tera. Not to mention that tera was a big part of banning bundle and palafin. The idea that we're not going to be sacrificing dozens of pokemon to the altar of tarastalisation is laughable. If you want to keep it, you are going to have to just keep banning things.
Z-moves and tera aren't comparable.
Z-moves made you give up an item slot, and was basically a consumable (more comparable to gen 5 gems). Tera is a permanent buff that changes your typing alongside its nuke.
Nothing particularly was overwhelming because of Z-moves that I can think of, as the damage was comparable to running an actual item like specs or band in some instances.
If you look through the list of gen 7 ubers, you'll see:</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Zygarde: was a fat threat not a Z-mover
Naganadel: Z-moves might've pushed it but overall it just needed 1 kill and beast boost broke it, gen 8 banned it too without any gimmicks.
Pheromosa: Really fucking fast with no checks due to its offenses and speed tier, even lando couldn't stomache ice beam with its mixed offenses.
Aegislash: This one Ghostium-Z was scary on
Landorus-i: just repeats what it did the past gens, too strong with sheer force with or without z-moves.
The rest: Megas that can't hold z-crystals, big legends that need no explaining, and blaziken
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To give an example of how the damage compares to tera:
252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 310-366 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Tera Fire 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 277-327 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Aprox a 9% decrease, however tera also means volc never has to give up HDB to deal very close damage, removes its bug typing, and can fire off more powerful fire blast throughout the game rather than once to power through something.
But usually you'd see this instead:
252 SpA Volcarona Bloom Doom (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 157-185 (46 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
Tera Grass 252 SpA Volcarona Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Which instead is a 20-25% increase in damage, removes volc's weaknesses, and sticks.
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To give a list of things specifically broken by tera
Espathra: Turning fairy removes most of its priority move counterplay given only scizor is a viable OU bullet puncher right now, while giving its dazzling gleam STAB for more oomph against its dark type checks.
Roaring moon: Stab Acro and removes its fairy, dragon, bug, and fighting weakness
PissedOffApe: tera water lets it beat would be checks
Dragonite: STAB extremespeed, speaks for itself.
Chien-pao: defense teras make it harder to check/revenge kill, while tera fighting or its stabs make it muscle through teams even more than it already does.
Chi-yu: same as above, mostly just STABs though.
Dragapult: Gets stronger with tera ghost that nothing can really stomach.
Volcarona, Iron Moth, Kingambit, Iron Valiant: All held back simply because the above are still around, otherwise they could easily become broken through tera without the above keeping them in check.
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I'm a low skill player so take what I say with a grain of salt. But what I've gathered is that one of the major issues with Terastilization people have is the unpredictability. I think that if we consider that a major concern it isn't appropriate to judge the mechanic so quickly when the meta hasn't formalized. While of course the extra Stab/double Stab is great it's also widely agreed upon, I've seen a lot more back and forth discussion around the defensive potential you get, but this potential is greatly greatly diminished if most pokemon end up with a few particular tera-types they work best in (there will always be the possibility of off-meta tera-types, in the same way you could use off-meta moves to throw off someone).
Imo if we do end up with pokemon gravitating towards a few types, which would then be predictable given a decent reading of the situation (oh the caterpie switched into my reshiram, probably going to be tera-rock) then there will be little issue with the mechanic to the point it warrents banning, if it doesn't well then that's another story - but we can't make an informed decision at this point.
Imo if we do end up with pokemon gravitating towards a few types, which would then be predictable given a decent reading of the situation (oh the caterpie switched into my reshiram, probably going to be tera-rock) then there will be little issue with the mechanic to the point it warrents banning, if it doesn't well then that's another story - but we can't make an informed decision at this point.
Its broken on both ends of the spectrum but its reaaaaaaaaaaaal broken offense wise. It turns normal strong mons into godly sweepers and godly sweepers into universe destroyers. Tera defensively is kinda memey but when I think of tera being used defensively its more when used on a sweeper to change its type to avoid getting 1 shot and then continuing sweep or whatever which ends up looping back to being offensive oriented in the first place.
If Tera doesnt get banned we will probably have 10+ mons that will be banned due to the mechanic lol, even more so when Home releases the gods. that aint healthy
suppose i should've clarified, I mean I reckon that the more up in the air/annoying aspect is the unpredictability which is more on the defensive end of things. Getting to give one of your pokemon a 50% boost on any one type is strong but if the gimmick continues to be "well i have no idea when a mon will turn into... something" rather than becoming a prediction/strategy play then that's just annoying. And banning something for being annoying and unfun is a very different talk to something just being a very *very* strong option (that both sides have access to)
and then
mans went from "elo shaming is cringe" to "lmfao you suck" in goddamn record time
IMO, while I currently am 100% in favor of Tera to STAY
I think keeping Tera, but gutted with restrictions is pointless, as all options presented are either irrelevant (tera blast ban lol), too complex (half the list) or the fun/core mechanics of Tera out of it (Team preview or similar ones). And thats not even including that it might stray too away from cartridge.
Therefore when the time eventually comes to make a decision (i hope in at least a few months) it should either be STAY or BAN, restrictions are pointless.
But i present another solution:
Its been argued to create a tier for Tera and keep Tera out of OU, I agree with this but with a TWIST, keep Tera in OU and let the haters go to their own Restricted Gen 9 OU No Tera tier. This way you let the people choose between the two tiers and everyone is happy, eventually playerbase will be higher in the more fun and competitive one (Surprise surprise it might or might not be Tera!! :D)
Standard Gen 9 OU (Tera allowed)
Restricted Gen 9 OU (NoTera)
Also this is the fastest, less convoluted and controversial quick solution, as it could be almost instantly applied and everyone would be happy. If the no tera becomes a lot more popular, make it the official tier.
I think keeping Tera, but gutted with restrictions is pointless, as all options presented are either irrelevant (tera blast ban lol), too complex (half the list) or the fun/core mechanics of Tera out of it (Team preview or similar ones). And thats not even including that it might stray too away from cartridge.
Therefore when the time eventually comes to make a decision (i hope in at least a few months) it should either be STAY or BAN, restrictions are pointless.
But i present another solution:
Its been argued to create a tier for Tera and keep Tera out of OU, I agree with this but with a TWIST, keep Tera in OU and let the haters go to their own Restricted Gen 9 OU No Tera tier. This way you let the people choose between the two tiers and everyone is happy, eventually playerbase will be higher in the more fun and competitive one (Surprise surprise it might or might not be Tera!! :D)
Standard Gen 9 OU (Tera allowed)
Restricted Gen 9 OU (NoTera)
Also this is the fastest, less convoluted and controversial quick solution, as it could be almost instantly applied and everyone would be happy. If the no tera becomes a lot more popular, make it the official tier.
I guess I wasn't as clear as I could be.
In a meta where Tera is available to everyone, DNite should be suspect tested for a ban.
STAB Extremespeed off 134 Atk is straight-up busted. I don't think anyone is arguing against this.
So you're telling me that there is a plan to deal with Espathra at +2 SpA/SpD/Spe? That mon has STAB Stored Power and Dazzling Gleam to smoke Dark-types trying to counter it. All it needs to do when something that tries to kill it with Sucker Punch switches in is click Sub.
That shit is broken WITHOUT Tera.
I don't entirely agree with this, but, right now, I believe that having a temporary split between Tera OU and a Teraless OU is important so that people can make informed decisions when the Suspect Vote starts.
It's very clear that there's a perception among the Pro-Ban crowd that Tera is the main thing that will get a lot of mons banned, but the power creep this gen is truly unprecedented. I believe a lot of mons will get banned anyway like Ape, Espathra, Gholdengo, etc...
If there's no glimpse at a Teraless Meta before the test happens, this might lead to Tera being wrongfully banned.
Allow me to argue against this.
Dragonite on its own without tera isn't broken, and with tera, its suspect worthy. I think we can all agree on that. So if tera is the broken element here, then why are we also banning dnite? Now you may also ask yourself "well by the same logic, why did we ban houndstone and not last respects?" Excellent question, one which was already answered in the announcement post of that quickban. To quote it "the necessary burden of proof for banning a move would be it directly causing multiple Pokemon to be banworthy." Using the same tiering philosophy, the necessary burden of proof for banning tera would be it directly causing multiple pokemon to be banworthy. And is that not what we currently see? Dnite, Espathra, Roaring Moon, Dragapult and many others are being pushed over the edge simply due to tera where they would be pretty balanced without it. So in a meta where tera is available to everyone, tera should be suspect tested for a ban, not dnite.
I also disagree on this front. Without tera, a dazzling gleam with no stab coming off of base 101 special attack is not nearly enough to threaten the dark types of this tier. If it is forced to stay pure psychic and loses access to stab dazzling gleam and stab fighting tera blast, it cannot break through pokemon like chi-yu, kingambit, tyranitar, and other dark types. More over, remaining psychic typing and not pure fairy/fight means you are more vulnerable to first impression, sucker punch, and shadow sneak. If we are assuming the usual max def bold set shown below, then a +1 dazzling gleam cannot even kill chien pao from full.
Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chien-Pao: 248-292 (82.3 - 97%)
Once again, I argue that this is a pokemon that is FINE without tera, and BROKEN with tera.
Normally I don't support having extra ladders, we sure didn't need one to decide that dmax was broken. However if there is enough demand from the playerbase I'm not opposed to this either.
Thank you for this! I genuinely love these community pulse surveys.
I had one quick question on this one though. I noted the absence of a "reveal Tera-type at preview" choice as a restriction option. Was that intentional? Has that option been taken off the table, or is there another reason for its exclusion?
Thanks for all you Council guys do too! One unprecedented generation after another has been a lot for you guys to handle, and I'd say y'all are doing a fantastic job.
It is intentional, yes.
We mostly feel the other options are more plausible in terms of justification and practical ramifications if we opt to restrict (not that that is set in stone at all). A council member did advocate for its inclusion and some people are using the “other” field to discuss it, which is entirely fair game, but I do not see it as up to par with the alternatives personally. This can change though and I am only one person and we are only one group of people. The community say will matter a great deal.
And thank you, we couldn’t do our job without a dedicated playerbase!
Espartha is very interesting because it’s used in OU a lot but it’s considered a UU Pokémon and I do see it being banned from UU in the near future. It’s stats are mediocre but combination of its ability Speed Boost and having the move Stored Power it warrants a cancerous meta where you can plan to beat a Psychic type and it Teras into a Dark / Fairy Tera it goes the Stored Power / Calm Mind. You always have to prepare to bring a Dark Type on the team so you don’t have the potential to get swept. I don’t think it’s an Uber type Pokémon but I think Tera makes it a very capable Pokémon in OU
Gotcha! Thanks for the explanation, and that makes sense! I added that note to my own survey prior to asking here, so I'm glad that was the "correct" choice there to voice that preference.
I'd note that option is still being discussed by folks in this thread even in the last couple days (myself and my 1am essay included haha), and is listed at the first restriction option in the original post. It just seemed odd such a highly visible option was excluded from the survey meant to get a quantitative feel on all options at hand, so I was curious. As mentioned though, your justification makes sense, and I'm glad it's being added manually and seen at least! Tera is a really weird beast.
It’s hard as information and opinions over a week ago versus those now have shifted due to metagame shifts. I do not personally think that the team preview type solution will do much to move the needle, but I’m open to considering it if there is ample support. Again: I don’t want my opinion to monopolize matters.
Same reason a bunch of mons got banned because of Z-Move-related reasons but not Z-Moves themselves.
The combination of factors is the broken element, not Tera. Therefore, the mon gets to go.
Unboosted? No. I agree.
The thing is that Esp can stack boosts rather easily.
Yeah, D-Max was obviously beyond busted, so that was a relatively easy decision.
Terastal isn't on that level, despite being unquestionably strong, and its nature as a mechanic warrants a different approach. I think that a temp ladder would give us enough information to make a better decision as a community.
I made quite a lengthy post about why tera should be banned or tiered, I've completely changed my mind. I find tera to paradoxically be the healthiest mechanic ever added to the game. Heres why.
1) Matchup: Tera allows teams to plug up holes they otherwise wouldn't be able to. Each tera on your team matters, and the sooner I learned the value in that, the sooner I learned how far you can optimize your team builder. I have never felt like I could feasibly cover every threat in the game as much as I do now. I feel team building is exponentially rewarded with tera. I think it allows you to play through both mismatch and hax far better than before.
2) Swings: I originally believed a tera's unpredictability lead to unsalvageable swings in the game. I originally posted on how I lost to a tera steel annihilape. I posted how it was possible I had misplayed, but now I understand how bad of a misplay it was. I originally believed a set up mon being able to change its type to anything was too powerful, but I have come to realize that the pool of viable set up mons and the pool of reasonable tera's for those mons is actually manageable in the team builder, especially when considering your own tera options. Once I had committed more thought to my plays and to my team building, I realized that losing to the current pool of set up mon's tera is on the player.
Team building is the MOST rewarding its ever been IMO.
3) Thought provoking gameplay: This is the most important aspect of why I love tera. The games feel WAY less brain dead and I genuinely have not felt like I deserve to lose/win games as much as I do with tera. The routes to victory are way less one dimensional as they have been in the past, as are the routes to defeat. I love the extra layer of thought the game now provides.
4) 'hard tera' mons aren't that good. Acro roaring moon, Esped dnite [less so], espathra, and ape are all mons that heavily rely on tera. While not always predictable (dnite does run the fire tera, espathra goes fighting and fairy, etc), these mons lose a LOT of their strength when they do not tera. Similarly to acro roaring moon has died out, I expect similar fates for these hard tera mons. The player loses a lot of team versatility in trying to maintain a tera to a specific mon. I do believe there is potential for specific tera+set up mon combinations to be inherently broken, but at the moment I do not believe that to be the case, and I don't see that as a reason to ban the mechanic.
Tera's versatility, IMO, paradoxically balances the game. No action on tera should be taken.
1) Matchup: Tera allows teams to plug up holes they otherwise wouldn't be able to. Each tera on your team matters, and the sooner I learned the value in that, the sooner I learned how far you can optimize your team builder. I have never felt like I could feasibly cover every threat in the game as much as I do now. I feel team building is exponentially rewarded with tera. I think it allows you to play through both mismatch and hax far better than before.
2) Swings: I originally believed a tera's unpredictability lead to unsalvageable swings in the game. I originally posted on how I lost to a tera steel annihilape. I posted how it was possible I had misplayed, but now I understand how bad of a misplay it was. I originally believed a set up mon being able to change its type to anything was too powerful, but I have come to realize that the pool of viable set up mons and the pool of reasonable tera's for those mons is actually manageable in the team builder, especially when considering your own tera options. Once I had committed more thought to my plays and to my team building, I realized that losing to the current pool of set up mon's tera is on the player.
Team building is the MOST rewarding its ever been IMO.
3) Thought provoking gameplay: This is the most important aspect of why I love tera. The games feel WAY less brain dead and I genuinely have not felt like I deserve to lose/win games as much as I do with tera. The routes to victory are way less one dimensional as they have been in the past, as are the routes to defeat. I love the extra layer of thought the game now provides.
4) 'hard tera' mons aren't that good. Acro roaring moon, Esped dnite [less so], espathra, and ape are all mons that heavily rely on tera. While not always predictable (dnite does run the fire tera, espathra goes fighting and fairy, etc), these mons lose a LOT of their strength when they do not tera. Similarly to acro roaring moon has died out, I expect similar fates for these hard tera mons. The player loses a lot of team versatility in trying to maintain a tera to a specific mon. I do believe there is potential for specific tera+set up mon combinations to be inherently broken, but at the moment I do not believe that to be the case, and I don't see that as a reason to ban the mechanic.
Tera's versatility, IMO, paradoxically balances the game. No action on tera should be taken.
I disagree with this view but I would just be repeating myself.
+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 133-157 (39 - 46%)
+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 99-117 (39.4 - 46.6%)
+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 156-184 (45.7 - 53.9%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chien-Pao: 248-292 (82.3 - 97%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meowscarada: 234-276 (79.8 - 94.1%)
I'm not going to show calcs vs ting-lu for espathra's sake (also vessel of ruin isn't working on damage calc). These calcs are pathetic as is. This shit needs tera to break through dark types and after 1 calm mind it fails to kill even the frailer dark types in the tier. It would be mid without tera.
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alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Except that all of those become guaranteed 2HKOs/OHKOs with just a bit of Sp. Atk investment.
Even if you think Tera is balanced, this is a massive exaggeration. Mega Evolution, held items, Abilities and the physical-special split were all healthier than Tera could ever be in a million years.
Question: say I have an Ice type pokemon, and I tera it into another type. If I was to set Snow, will its defense still be boosted?
And vice versa. Non ice type into Ice type. Does it gain the defense boost?
And vice versa. Non ice type into Ice type. Does it gain the defense boost?
As an outsider looking in to this thread, arguments that say "it will keep the meta from being boring" or rewording it but ultimately says the same thing does not help the do not ban crowd. Whole point is to try and aim for balance. If you say this gimmick keeps things fresh I feel like its also slightly admitting that its not the most balanced mechanic in the world but hey, it keeps things exciting?
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