Metagame On The Radar (Update @ Post #94)

[DripLegend]

As someone who has put a ton of time into SV and had some fun with the meta, I have waited a while for chi-yu to be called into question. This mon has a great amount of flexibility, with a ton of different amazing sets that are all made better with its great ability. All of these sets are great with the most notable being AV, scarf, specs, and weakness policy.

AV

 (Chi-Yu) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 120 SpA / 140 SpD
Calm Nature
- Overheat
- Snarl
- Ruination
- Dark Pulse/Payback

Assault Vest allows chi-yu to take on the myriad of faster strong special attackers that would otherwise beat it, mainly Iron Bundle, Flutter Mane, other non-AV chi-yu sometimes, and can even cheese a win on the standard disabling Iron Valiant set running around due to snarl special attack drops.

WP

(Chi-Yu) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Beads of Ruin
EVs: 204 HP / 156 Def / 20 SpA / 128 Spe
Timid Nature
- Will-O-Wisp / Reflect
- Overheat
- Dark Pulse
- Flame Charge / Ruination / Nasty Plot / Taunt

Weakness Policy has been a set running around for quite some time now, and for good reason as it allows for chi-yu to handle a lot of physical attackers that would normally beat it like non lum donphan and other slow physical attackers.

The specs and scarf sets are both pretty simple ev spreads with 252 in both speed and special attack to maximize offensive power, and with chi-yu's ability running timid isn't as much of a drop in power from running modest as the average player would expect. z

Potential "counters" and how they could all lose to chi-yu

If hands isn't av will lose to specs chi-yu and if it is then loses to WP (if they guess right and don't activate policy hands should win)
Probably one of the more consistent answers but can lose to dark pulse flinch
loses to WP if it isn't lum, otherwise can lose to flinch like dondozo
click brave bird and pray chi-yu isn't bulky (spdef talon can actually beat chi-yu)
hope chi-yu isn't AV, if bundle is specs it also loses to scarf
if ape is AV, loses to WP, otherwise loses to specs
not good this gen but as a general topic since chi-yu is dark type mirror coat has no effect (rip thugg)
not that bad of an answer but there could be chi-yu sets i haven't seen that beat azu
actually wins with eq + booster (this is iron treads propaganda pls use it i love it sm)

So out of this list, Chi-yu can win most of these matchups through a variety of all very good sets. While set guessing is one aspect of 1v1, having to account for the variance through all of these matchups can be annoying, and running into the right chi-yu at the wrong time can really catch you off guard or cost you the game since it is such an offensive powerhouse. Chi-yu has never felt like a dead click into any given matchup I have played with it. Overall, Chi-yu provides immense pressure on preview and can even be bailed out of bad matchups with a single flinch which is pretty common since most chi-yu answers are slower and susceptible to it. It has a huge impact on the metagame right now, and I believe with the fish gone it would allow for a lot more freedom, without having to run a ton of spdef evs or as many av pokemon in general in order to bulk for it. I also think Iron valiant and Gholdengho are starting to centralize the meta in their own ways, but I've gone on for long enough already, they can get their own posts.

TLDR: Chi-yu has many viable sets that have potential to cover the entire metagame barring few checks, some of which can still lose to flinch and usually another equally viable chi-yu set. Chi-yu also loses nothing by switching to another set, since each have great matchup spreads and don't lose any already great matchups it had previously.

 

[recti]

ok so valliant post valiant da goat valliant the chad
ok valliant is the current go getter on ladder oh counter we have a set for that so first why is it used
why is it used so much:
its sets are diverse very far from eachother
hard to predict which set
ok so you think that valliant is encore disable and go lorb chi yu and its an offensive one and cc kills you
so think its offensive and go goat killowattrel and its encore disable its pain to predict
and tbh its counters are minimumn compared to other mons
and encore disable is more prevalent guys use its a solid counter to both sets
goat counters bombirdier the goat
ok so to get counters i need to define what is a counter in this case counter-a mon that beats most varieties of another mon for example valiant is a counter to most choice mons

Bombirdier @ Choice Band
Ability: Rocky Payload
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 176 HP / 80 Atk / 252 SpD
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
- dual wingbeat

or

Bombirdier @ Roseli Berry
Ability: Rocky Payload
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 176 HP / 80 Atk / 252 SpD
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
- Drill Run

roseli bombirdier s/o LRXC the goat btw cooking up some valiant meat on ladder
goat and now you guys learnt to use bombirdier even though my set sux
ok so other counters are lorb chi yu (booster counter),flutter mane both , dondozo mental herb ( booster) dondozo band (ofensive) ok so




:grafaifai:
next question influence in ladder
influence in ladder
goat kills most mons in ladder with twosets offensive and booster encore booster encore beat stallers toarkoal, and stuff
offensive kills low ladder as a whole high ladder is packed with eachother so roseli good option in high ladder simmilarities::
all have habbit to losing to flutter mane
ok i dedicated an hour to write this post ill edit it later and ill post if any sets r up tbh valliant post was more fun than chi yu post https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...nd-iron-valiant-post-24.3711615/#post-9465329 i tested things like mental dondozo annhilappe roseli vs booster and donphan donphan btw wins booster 75% of the time
tagging smely socks Nick bec i want to and LRXC 's yt to give me the goat bombirdier idea

 

[delemon]

dondozo mental herb ( booster) dondozo band (ofensive) ok so

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1751905584-qemsxdnz9daaal60idvqtonvvsx39iepw
specs valiant has a pretty good dondozo mu

 

[STABLE]

I won't make a really long post with in-depth analysis about this because at the current moment I don't really have the time, but I do want to address something when it comes to the decisions that are to be made in the near future.

With Pokemon Home coming to us in a matter of a couple months (maybe even one month or less, although no confirmation yet), and the amount of New 1v1-relevant Pokemon added, I assume the 1v1 Council will look into unbanning most of the stuff that gets banned up until that point (mons like Dragonite and Scream Tail, potentially Chi-Yu and Iron Valiant). This means that the current metagame does not have a long lifespan, and while tiering actions do deserve diligent process, speeding it up to have a playable metagame even if for a short time may be preferred.

As of right now, I think it's obvious that a big part of the players that play SV believe that Chi-Yu is a problem that is banworthy, and you will find way less people arguing against a ban than something like Annihilape. I won't say a suspect is necessarily a waste of time, and I do think normally you would have to proceed with a suspect, but with Iron Valiant also being an imminent danger to the metagame, and the outcome of a potential Chi-Yu suspect being predictable, my advice is to Quickban Chi-Yu with a Council vote and start a suspect on Iron Valiant soon after. It may not be the perfect way to proceed but it allows us to make progress in the metagame with the limited time we have.

Also because, once Chi-Yu gets banned, whether it is through a suspect or quickban, Gholdengo will quite likely become banworthy, independently of whether Iron Valiant also gets acted upon.

Afterwards we'll have to see, we could potentially see something like Iron Hands become unstoppable, Annihilape actually become banworthy, potentially Flutter Mane Dondozo yada yada, but by that point we will not only have a better metagame, but we won't have to worry about these issues with Home coming out.

 

[recti]

Quickban Chi-Yu with a Council vote and start a suspect on Iron Valiant soon after.

Also because, once Chi-Yu gets banned, whether it is through a suspect or quickban, Gholdengo will quite likely become banworthy, independently of whether Iron Valiant also gets acted upon.

Afterwards we'll have to see, we could potentially see something like Iron Hands become unstoppable, Annihilape actually become banworthy, potentially Flutter Mane Dondozo yada yada, but by that point we will not only have a better metagame, but we won't have to worry about these issues with Home coming out.

true

 

[frogfacts]

wsg gamers btw thank you Arvinraj K III C for saving yet another meta i am here to say that like chi yu is kinda broken cause that shit is on every team chi yu dozo or smth is solved meta even tho dozo does not actually win a singular game it is just there to scare shit off and if you run it with anything the team is viable basically so ban chi yu cause otherwise there will be exactly nothing happening in the meta until home

 

[crucify]

alright so on chi yu i think previous posts have been sufficient in explaining reasons why its broken so i wont go too in depth, theres not too much reason not to bring and pick chi yu every game rn tbh. its set diversity and lack of opportunity costs due to its good (read: fire) typing and beads of ruin make it really hard to deal with in the builder and on preview, leaving you with having to use dondozo spdef talon or azu (bad) to beat it reliably (theres other stuff but yeah).

moving that aside for a sec there is apparently a raid coming:

which will likely bring greninja into sv, and to try to avoid having another super versatile mon dropping during a suspect, i'd like to propose a council vote on a quickban on chi yu. regardless of whether or not gren changes the meta enough for chi yu not to be broken, or whether gren dropping affects how people vote in the suspect, its just something i think we should avoid, and theres been plenty of public support for a chi yu ban with little pushback so this is the path i'd like to take for that. the only real arguments that i've heard to not ban chi yu is that other things, including valiant and gholdengo, might be broken after, and we dont have enough time to ban everything before home so its a fruitless endeavor, and chi yu is a fine mon for the meta to be centralized around. I personally don't think either reasoning is sufficient not to ban chi yu, but if you disagree please do post your thoughts on bring it up on discord.

lastly on valiant its also pretty broken, and gholdengo/flutter mane are super annoying and most likely will be more annoying after chi yu, but id say wait and see for a little to see what path to take, and hopefully a home date is revealed in the near future to help with that.

 

[frogfacts]

which will likely bring greninja into sv

i just want to say that gren does not beat chi yu but chi yu also does not beat gren it is very set dependant because something like specs gren drops to scarf chi yu so it has to run the bulk for hyper beam but then it cant ohko av so it has to run physical but then the chi yu just runs wp and so on so it just makes the mon more uncompetetive

 

[glitched]

i just want to say that gren does not beat chi yu but chi yu also does not beat gren it is very set dependant because something like specs gren drops to scarf chi yu so it has to run the bulk for hyper beam but then it cant ohko av so it has to run physical but then the chi yu just runs wp and so on so it just makes the mon more uncompetetive

av gren will save sv 1v1

 

[clerica]

The 1v1 council has been following the meta following the Chi-Yu ban and as of late has noticed that there has been a lot of discontent with the current state of the meta. We would like to open up discussion on mons that are currently considered the most problematic throughout the community with plans for a potential slate vote in the following days. The initial focus will be on Gholdengo, Iron Valiant, and Flutter Mane with a secondary focus on Greninja and Annihilape if needed.


Main Priority

Gholdengo
Following the Chi-yu ban, Gholdengo has become quite a dominant force in the meta. It can run a wide variety of sets such as Scarf, Specs, Reflect Weakness Policy, Light Screen Weakness Policy, AV, Air Balloon and so on thanks to its versatile movepool and access to the best steel type move in the game in Make it Rain. Gholdengo also has one of the best abilities in the game in Good as Gold which makes it nearly impossible to lure or finesse because of its immunity to moves like Trick, Encore, Thunder Wave, Leech Seed, and even ghost type Curse. It should be of no surprise then that Gholdengo was also the most used mon on ladder last month and sees plenty of usage in tours due to it having good matchups against other top tiers like Annihilape and Iron Valiant, SV's overall lack of steel types, and being incredibly easy to slot on pretty much any team. While it isn't unbeatable, the Weakness Policy sets in particular often necessitate the use of an offensive boosting item (Choice Band/Specs, Life Orb, Booster Energy) to win and are why Gholdengo is one of the first mons people point to when discussing potentially problematic pokemon.

Iron Valiant
Iron Valiant is a leading cause of frustration among many a ladder goer. While one may initially look at its powerful attacking stats and think to try Choice Band or some kind of mixed Scarf set, a 1v1 veteran will quickly recognize that its true power lies mostly in Encore Disable sets. With its upper echelon speed tier when boosted by Booster Energy, Iron Valiant is our current fastest Encore Disable user in the tier. With this speed it can afford to put most of its evs into bulk where it would normally be lacking while still outspeeding most of the tier and even many Scarf users. Iron Valiant isn't forced to run Encore Disable either. Offensive sets such as Choice Specs are capable of catching people off guard as well. Encore Disable has been a powerful strategy since the early days of SS Sableye and counterplay does exist for those willing to put the time in and learn the specifics, but many are saying Valiant is too strong as it is.

Flutter Mane
Flutter Mane is another mon that has been rising up the ranks as of late. With its incredible speed, special attack, and special defense, it is inherently capable of beating most special attackers by virtue of being faster and stronger than them. Moves like Calm Mind, Taunt, and Mystical Fire give it tools for dealing with set up users as well. Don't let Flutter Mane's pathetic physical bulk deceive you either. With moves like Charm and Pain Split, Flutter Mane is capable of beating many physical attackers such as Dondozo and Ting-Lu so long as they aren't running Clear Amulet. To make matters worse, people have started running Charm sets along with a speed boost from Booster Energy to get the best of both worlds. Whereas previously you had to pick between beating mons like Dragapult and Iron Bundle with speed booster or Iron Hands and Slaking with Charm, now you can beat them all in a single set. There are some mons like Arcanine or Dondozo who can win with Clear Amulet sets, but many people argue these measures are not a healthy impact on the meta.


Others on the Radar

Greninja
Being the new Protean mon in town, Greninja's long awaited return has been the focus of a lot of discussion across the community. This is the first time ever we get to see Greninja no longer shackled by having to beat Mega Zard(s) and can instead take a more versatile approach when being used. Many of the same frustrations caused by Cinderace have been reignited by the frog and its ability to tech for almost any scenario. However, Greninja has also only been around a week and was not even allowed in any tournaments until this week so it's currently not planned to be on any initial vote. Instead the current plan is to closely watch Greninja and be prepared to take action shortly afterwards if needed. That being said feel free to discuss it here because it is still technically on the radar.

Annihilape
While Annihilape was voted to remain legal via a suspect test about a month ago, it has come back into discussions again because of talk of it becoming broken in the wake of these potential bans. This is especially possible if Gholdengo and Iron Valiant were to both be banned as both of those have favorable matchups against Annihilape. However, as decided in the suspect test results, Annihilape is not broken at the moment and as such should not be on any initial vote. If it does end up broken following any action we can always retest it down the line, but for the time being we shouldn't be taking action on a mon because it "could" become broken.

-------

For clarity, we would like to focus this discussion mostly around Gholdengo, Iron Valiant, and Flutter Mane. These are what are currently most likely to be voted on. Greninja while definitely on the radar, is still incredibly new to the tier and planned to be looked into afterwards if needed. Annihilape could be an issue at some point, but should not be focused on until significant meta changes justify a revisit. Keep in mind also that just because a mon is slated to be voted on does not mean that it will necessarily be banned. It is entirely possible that only two, one, or even none of these are quickbanned and suspect tests are always on the table as well. The current plan is to leave discussion open until 11:59 PM GMT-5 Friday but we can take as longer if we need to. I also encourage anyone to post their thoughts, even if what you want to say has already been said because numbers do matter. As always be respectful since flaming people gets you nowhere, feel free to reference the current Tiering Policy Framework when making arguments, and any one liners will be deleted

 

[Mishlef]

Ban them all lmao
flutter is broken can run literally like 3 different boosters + wp + specs + l + ratio

greninja does the same thing but to a lesser extent but still broken since it can just cheese any collection of like 3 mons

ape is the worst of the 3 in terms of being a super versatile Mon but this is mostly because it doesnt have the wide overarching matchup spread on a singular set that the other two above it have

gholdengo is kinda annoying but u really only have to setguess scarf or non-scarf on ur “dedicated“ gholdengo answers but its also kinda easy to lure so meh

iron valiant feels scary but honestly speed booster holding it back because u feel pidgeonholed into not running a good item maybe offensive sets or like non-speed booster items are going to push it over the edge but idk setguessing this still sucks in the relatively limited manner it is now and I can’t see it getting better

 

[DripLegend]

this has capabilities of handling a lot of the metagame, and with the amount of set variety and solid STAB option in Make It Rain makes it the only real steel type in the metagame now. Amazing ability complements this well, solidifying it as the best Valiant answer. The collection of sets ranging from WP, Choice Specs/Scarf, and the more recent AV set give it amazing matchups, never being useless throughout any given matchup. This is 100% the best mon in the tier right now, and I think it should be banned.


Filled the void that Scream Tail left, and has since become similarly strong, albeit nowhere near the strength of Scream Tail. Booster Energy allows for bulk investment without compromising the great natural Speed stat it has. Choice Specs is another great option that is overshadowed by encore + disable, providing solidity versus opponents that take advantage of the rigid playstyle of encore + disable (no booster activation gives this away completely though so not a problem of guessing specs vs. disable). I also think Valiant is unhealthy for the current metagame, since the fear of this pokemon is so high usage of gholdengo has risen dramatically. I would like for Valiant to similarly be banned, as without it's best answer in Gholdengo, usage would rise and cause the metagame to become staler as a result.


This mon has to go, plain and simple. It has options for the entirety of the metagame, and with ghold and valiant being gone it will rise to absurd levels of brokenness (even though flutter is insanely good rn). Charm sets lure physical attackers, WP beats Gholdengo, Speed Booster beats Val, other applications of Booster also help with the mirror matchup (Spdef and SpAtk). Not to mention the other common Pokemon Flutter is able to beat without teching for. This has semi gone under the radar in terms of brokens a little, but it is one of the best on this slate. Ban this asap pls.


This mon is really overshadowed as of writing this (mainly since other brokens are way better), but this has insane versatility. Could be problematic in a metagame without the aforementioned threats. Could have 50 different sets on preview that beat all different options. What Annihilape wishes it was tbh. I would prefer this to get looked at further during a metagame without the "big 3" and I am in full support with tiering action against it.


Basically same deal as gren but not as versatile overall. Has really strong matchups and has an annoying effect on building. Even with it not seeing much usage, people usually run bad specific counters to it that are exploitable either if 1. Annihilape isn't brought or 2. The counter is pretty obvious (giraffe or talon) and can be useless in game scenarios. In a meta with the only real fairy being sylv, I am worried that this trend of niche ape counters on teams will continue and make the metagame unfun.

TLDR: Ban Ghold, Val, and Flutter, with tiering action on Gren and Ape once the metagame has time to stabilize after the fallout.

 

[Lumii]

Regarding the basis of unhealthy elements in metagames: "These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame."

For the purposes of this post, I will be ignoring Greninja. The reasoning for this is that I have not seen enough of Greninja in the week or so that it has been allowed to actual justify any action on it. However, I do admit that this is part of me focusing much more on the tournaments aspect of 1v1 than the laddering aspect, as Global Cup's two week rounds do not provide much for Pokemon that release mid-round.

Due to the sheer chaos of this past weekend, I was not able to collect usage from the last week of games from Global Cup, but I did previously collect the usage from two weeks ago, which is reflective of the Chi-Yu ban. Here it is.

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Gholdengo          |   49 |  21.49% |  48.98% |
| 1    | Iron Valiant       |   49 |  21.49% |  44.90% |
| 3    | Great Tusk         |   40 |  17.54% |  45.00% |
| 4    | Meowscarada        |   31 |  13.60% |  67.74% |
| 4    | Flutter Mane       |   31 |  13.60% |  54.84% |
| 6    | Dondozo            |   29 |  12.72% |  44.83% |
| 7    | Annihilape         |   24 |  10.53% |  45.83% |
| 8    | Iron Bundle        |   22 |   9.65% |  59.09% |
| 9    | Donphan            |   21 |   9.21% |  61.90% |
| 10   | Bellibolt          |   20 |   8.77% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Azumarill          |   20 |   8.77% |  40.00% |
| 12   | Magnezone          |   19 |   8.33% |  52.63% |
| 12   | Skeledirge         |   19 |   8.33% |  52.63% |
| 14   | Corviknight        |   18 |   7.89% |  66.67% |
| 15   | Arcanine           |   16 |   7.02% |  43.75% |
| 16   | Iron Hands         |   15 |   6.58% |  26.67% |
| 17   | Iron Treads        |   14 |   6.14% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Talonflame         |   14 |   6.14% |  42.86% |
| 19   | Kingambit          |   13 |   5.70% |  53.85% |
| 20   | Iron Moth          |   12 |   5.26% |  58.33% |
| 21   | Sylveon            |   11 |   4.82% |  63.64% |
| 21   | Espathra           |   11 |   4.82% |  45.45% |
| 23   | Garchomp           |   10 |   4.39% |  60.00% |
| 24   | Chien-Pao          |    9 |   3.95% |  55.56% |
| 25   | Rotom-Heat         |    8 |   3.51% |  25.00% |
| 26   | Goodra             |    7 |   3.07% |  71.43% |
| 26   | Avalugg            |    7 |   3.07% |  71.43% |
| 26   | Ting-Lu            |    7 |   3.07% |  57.14% |
| 26   | Farigiraf          |    7 |   3.07% |  57.14% |
| 26   | Abomasnow          |    7 |   3.07% |  42.86% |
| 31   | Baxcalibur         |    6 |   2.63% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Volcarona          |    6 |   2.63% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Iron Jugulis       |    6 |   2.63% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Clodsire           |    6 |   2.63% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Garganacl          |    6 |   2.63% |  33.33% |
| 36   | Gastrodon          |    5 |   2.19% |  80.00% |
| 36   | Scizor             |    5 |   2.19% |  60.00% |
| 36   | Dragapult          |    5 |   2.19% |  60.00% |
| 36   | Torkoal            |    5 |   2.19% |  40.00% |
| 36   | Pelipper           |    5 |   2.19% |  40.00% |
| 36   | Sableye            |    5 |   2.19% |   0.00% |
| 42   | Wo-Chien           |    4 |   1.75% |  75.00% |
| 42   | Armarouge          |    4 |   1.75% |  75.00% |
| 42   | Hawlucha           |    4 |   1.75% |  75.00% |
| 42   | Ditto              |    4 |   1.75% |   0.00% |
| 42   | Glimmora           |    4 |   1.75% |   0.00% |
| 47   | Charizard          |    3 |   1.32% |  66.67% |
| 47   | Tinkaton           |    3 |   1.32% |  66.67% |
| 47   | Slaking            |    3 |   1.32% |  66.67% |
| 47   | Haxorus            |    3 |   1.32% |  33.33% |
| 47   | Greninja           |    3 |   1.32% |  33.33% |
| 47   | Bisharp            |    3 |   1.32% |  33.33% |
| 47   | Rotom-Wash         |    3 |   1.32% |   0.00% |
| 54   | Braviary           |    2 |   0.88% | 100.00% |
| 54   | Gallade            |    2 |   0.88% |  50.00% |
| 54   | Grimmsnarl         |    2 |   0.88% |  50.00% |
| 54   | Sandy Shocks       |    2 |   0.88% |  50.00% |
| 54   | Breloom            |    2 |   0.88% |   0.00% |
| 54   | Camerupt           |    2 |   0.88% |   0.00% |
| 54   | Medicham           |    2 |   0.88% |   0.00% |
| 54   | Quagsire           |    2 |   0.88% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Salamence          |    1 |   0.44% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Roaring Moon       |    1 |   0.44% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Slither Wing       |    1 |   0.44% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Rotom-Mow          |    1 |   0.44% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Tauros-Paldea-Blaze |    1 |   0.44% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Tauros-Paldea-Aqua |    1 |   0.44% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Flareon            |    1 |   0.44% |   0.00% |

I'm going to gather the data from last week slightly later and add it to the end this post, but the fact remains that Iron Valiant and Gholdengo see significant usage in tournament play as well.

Gholdengo is quite crazy to deal with. I wish Good as Gold was never created... There's no reason that a Pokemon should be immune to all status moves, especially if that Pokemon is as good as Gholdengo. I think the Reflect + Weakness Policy set is the one that likely puts it over the edge though. The ability to deal with stuff like non-Choice Band Great Tusk is absolutely absurd for a Ghost and Steel type. The fact that I have been spamming Choice Band Great Tusk to try to deal with it was much more than was necessary to convince me that Gholdengo is pulling this metagame in an overall undesirable direction and that this Pokemon should be quickbanned.

Iron Valiant has one insanely good set and a couple of pretty okay sets. I've always found the offensive sets relatively underwhelming, but found that they were usually just best suited to some of my attempts to cteam someone while building. Of course, the elephant in the room is the Encore + Disable set that it can run, which, when combined with its Moonblast, can beat a large swath of the metagame. On a lot of my teams, I end using random Pokemon with Mental Herb to beat Iron Valiant, which probably shows how annoying this Pokemon is to deal with at times. However, this Pokemon does not feel as busted as others right now, mostly given that there's a lot of ways you can deal with it by using two separate moves. I do think that the amount of 50/50s make this Pokemon somewhat uncompetitive at times, but I would be leaning towards suspecting Iron Valiant if Gholdengo is banned due to how it could influence the metagame after that ban. However, from what I've seen, one of the tenets of tiering policy is to not base tiering decisions on future possibilities, so I think this should be reevaluated in the future.

Flutter Mane's Speed Booster set makes it absolutely broken please get rid of it... I think Flutter Mane's true issue is that it is insanely versatile, but it has a lot more power than a lot of versatile Pokemon have. Between the Booster Energy sets, Weakness Policy, and Choice Specs, Flutter Mane's movepool just makes this Pokemon quite hard to deal with. I think that Flutter Mane is probably the strongest Pokemon in the tier right now, and really do not want to see it affecting any future Global Cup rounds and therefore think that it should be banned.

My personal views on Annihilape aside, I do not think that we should be looking into taking action on a Pokemon just a month after a suspect vote decided that it should remain in the tier. Yes, I would like to see Annihilape banned one day, but I very much do not think it is overwhelming enough to justify it right now, even aside from my aforementioned suspect test result concerns.

I will edit last week's GC usage in here in a bit and try to draw further conclusions.

Edit: Here is last week's GC usage!

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Goodra             |   11 |  23.91% |  72.73% |
| 2    | Gholdengo          |   10 |  21.74% |  40.00% |
| 2    | Donphan            |   10 |  21.74% |  40.00% |
| 4    | Flutter Mane       |    7 |  15.22% |  71.43% |
| 4    | Great Tusk         |    7 |  15.22% |  71.43% |
| 6    | Meowscarada        |    6 |  13.04% |  83.33% |
| 6    | Magnezone          |    6 |  13.04% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Iron Valiant       |    6 |  13.04% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Talonflame         |    6 |  13.04% |  33.33% |
| 10   | Avalugg            |    5 |  10.87% |  80.00% |
| 10   | Dondozo            |    5 |  10.87% |  60.00% |
| 10   | Kingambit          |    5 |  10.87% |  20.00% |
| 13   | Azumarill          |    4 |   8.70% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Bellibolt          |    3 |   6.52% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Garchomp           |    3 |   6.52% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Iron Bundle        |    3 |   6.52% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Gastrodon          |    3 |   6.52% |  66.67% |
| 14   | Iron Hands         |    3 |   6.52% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Corviknight        |    3 |   6.52% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Skeledirge         |    3 |   6.52% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Volcarona          |    2 |   4.35% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Iron Jugulis       |    2 |   4.35% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Scizor             |    2 |   4.35% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Armarouge          |    2 |   4.35% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Hawlucha           |    2 |   4.35% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Baxcalibur         |    2 |   4.35% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Slaking            |    2 |   4.35% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Dragapult          |    2 |   4.35% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Glimmora           |    2 |   4.35% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Rotom-Heat         |    2 |   4.35% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Haxorus            |    1 |   2.17% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Tinkaton           |    1 |   2.17% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Sylveon            |    1 |   2.17% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Abomasnow          |    1 |   2.17% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Annihilape         |    1 |   2.17% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Garganacl          |    1 |   2.17% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Tauros-Paldea-Aqua |    1 |   2.17% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Espathra           |    1 |   2.17% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Ting-Lu            |    1 |   2.17% |   0.00% |

 

[fruan]

The obvious ones
forces clear amulet spdef invested physical attackers pretty much -> quickban.
is very strong at preview with speedboost encore/disable but is in my opinion the most easily manageable. Any decent fire/fairy/psychic type insta wins, poison types/neutral special attackers at worst need to tech it slightly to not lose to specs/just setguess -> no ban unless something new is developed.

The "i have infinite bulk theoretically but not in practice" (arguably unhealthy mons)
insanely versatile but only ever has 1 item, 4 moves, 508 evs -> Look into after other brokens are given due process.
WP + spdef or defense are epic along with viably running scarf/specs. Struggles vs electrics, loses to strong fires/grounds. Very meta defining, forces some suboptimal sets on good mons -> suspect.

The Roulette (unhealthy amount of set variance)
as Mishlef said, it literally chooses what it beats. The only pokemon that come close to reliably checking it are flutter mane, annihilape and meowscarada (+random first impression mons). While its still super new it doesn't seem like a good influence on the meta ->ban/if not, suspect (maybe wait a bit?).

 

[Urfgurgle]

This guy is really good and versatile, but I honestly haven't been having too much trouble against him. My experience with sv is limited to ladder, however, and I could see Golden Joseph being too much in a tournament setting. I think a suspect would be fair, but I would probably vote DNB if it were happening right now.

Valiant has potential to be annoying as hell when people realize they don't always have to run Booster Energy. Leftovers and Helmet would let it do the encore+disable thing a lot more effectively against the many mons it naturally outspeeds (though this generation is admittedly a lot speedier than previous gens). Offensive sets also have some potential which doesn't seem to be getting explored much. For now, it doesn't strike me as a particularly problematic mon, so I'd suggest no tiering action.

Misdreavus-Big-Hair is way too much for the meta. Ghost/Fairy is amazing typing and this mon has crazy stats and a great movepool to boot. Speed boosting sets are absurdly fast and charm lets it take on way too much. I think it should probably be quickbanned.

The frog has certainly been making me mald on ladder, but I don't think enough time has passed to tell if it needs to go. Protean and Libero are always strong as hell in 1v1, but Gren's frailty and relative lack of strength balance it out a bit. That said, it is insanely versatile and has very few reliable counters, so it probably will end up proving too much for the meta. I'd like to see the meta given a little more time to adapt to it before tiering action is taken.

Yet another super annoying mon that isn't quite banworthy, I think Annihilape is simply one of those inevitable mons that takes a little extra consideration when building. There's a handful of them every generation, and they're just part of the game. At present, I do not support tiering action on Annihilape, but there is a possible future in which it will prove too versatile and meta-warping to remain in the tier.

tl;dr ban Flutter Mane then figure out the rest after

 

[Lumii]

The SV 1v1 Council would like to open up discussion on Hoopa-Unbound, Greninja, and Gholdengo, as we consider them problematic and have been having discussions about what our next steps should be regarding these Pokemon.


Hoopa-Unbound
Hoopa-Unbound has gotten a lot of discourse as of late, both in council discussions and outside of them. Between Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Choice Band, Assault Vest, Life Orb, and Roseli Berry sets, Hoopa-Unbound's versatility allows it to check a large swath of the metagame. It is also blessed with a variety of coverage moves on both the physical and special sides, both of which are usable due to its incredibly high attacking stats. To deal with this Pokemon, we've started to see Pokemon running Bug-type coverage moves to try to KO it. However, a pretty large looming question regarding Hoopa-Unbound is how well it can adapt to its checks. Hoopa-Unbound, however, is oftentimes the first Pokemon that gets talked about when discussing things that can be problematic, so we would love to hear the community's thoughts on it.


Greninja
The first of the two Pokemon that were banned in the Pre-Home metagame that are unbanned now, Greninja returns with many of the same qualities that got it banned previously. Between Protean's typing changes, a high base Speed stat, and a deep movepool, Greninja's versatility can allow it to strike a balance between dealing damage and surviving hits due to type changes from Protean. Greninja's true strength can be felt in the teambuilder. Due to its wide variety of sets, including Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Petaya Berry, and many more, only a select few Pokemon can beat every common Greninja set. However, Greninja currently struggles due to sharing some niches with Hoopa-Unbound. In many cases, Hoopa-Unbound is able to effectively cover more Pokemon than Greninja. However, if Hoopa-Unbound does get banned, it is not unfathomable to see this Pokemon quickly become overbearing.


Gholdengo
The second of our now unbanned Pokemon, Gholdengo finds itself in a bit of an interesting place. Due to how different Gholdengo's niche is from Hoopa-Unbound, Gholdengo finds itself somewhat strengthened by the nature of the metagame itself. Just like in the Pre-Home metagame, Gholdengo can run Weakness Policy sets, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Air Balloon, and even some Assault Vest sets. However, due to the sheer difference in the set of Hoopa-Unbound and Gholdengo's counters, there are some issues with it being difficult to effectively counter both these Pokemon without overstretching the teambuilding and leaving holes that other Pokemon can take advantage of. An overarching question regarding this Pokemon remains: is Gholdengo strong as a product of the state of the metagame, or is it strong because of its own merits?

We encourage anyone to post their thoughts regarding these three Pokemon.

You are encouraged to reference the current Tiering Policy Framework when making your arguments. If you would like to add any supplemental information, such as posting sets, usage stats, or anything of the sort, you are welcome to. However, please remember to be respectful. Any disrespectful posts, off-topic posts, or one-liners will be deleted. As of right now, there is not a scheduled council vote on these three Pokemon. However, various tiering options are still on the table, such as quickbans and suspect tests. The current plan is to leave this thread open for responses until 11:59 PM GMT-4 on Thursday, June 8th.

 

[Murm]

I personally do not believe any of these three should be quickbanned, but we should definitely keep an eye on all of them. I believe that Startup and PL will give us a good grasp of the true effects these mons have on the meta. I'd also like to mention Meloetta and Ursaluna here, as I would put them, especially Meloetta, at the same level as these three. Meloetta, Hoopa, and Gholdengo all share the traits of being very strong attackers that are extremely bulky on at least one side with a large movepool. However, all of them can struggle with their speed, the highest being Meloetta at base 90, meaning many strong Pokemon can outspeed and potentially OHKO with supereffective moves. I also find Greninja to not be as strong as it wants to be, especially with how strong the new Pokemon that were added are. That all being said, we are still super early, and in my opinion before we do any bans we should at least have one week of Startup to fully understand how these Pokemon perform in a tournament setting. A lot of these Pokemon may only get better overtime, but people might also find out some really good checks into them.

Edit: After a little more thinking and reading the fellow posts, I believe we should ban Greninja and either suspect test or wait on Hoopa. Greninja is a menace for all of the reasons people have said below, and after doing some calcs, it is clear that its power isn't as low and I thought. I believe the meta will change a lot after a greninja ban, so in my opinion we should wait a little bit after the ban to potentially ban Hoopa and Gholdengo, to see if they or their answers develop.

 

[Vertigo]

Was expected to be a top tier threat and so far it has lived up to the expectations of everyone. I do believe we're all suffering from shiny object syndrome. The large versatility of Hoopa-Unbound is nowhere near what Greninja can achieve, which I'll talk about when I get to it below. Talks about Hoopa began before HOME was dropping and yet it was not on the most recent vote slate. Bug coverage is pretty common for a lot of already common threats (First Impression for Meowscarada was already a thing, so was U-turn Pult) and the mons running it are not losing on anything. As the meta stabilizes I could see it becoming a problem for other reasons as the community gets the time to explore more options (especially with PL coming up soon), but right now I think this meta needs a mon like Hoopa-Unbound and we need to see it perform in tours just like Murm said.


Gren is as stupid as it was the first time we banned it. You could argue that with the influx of new mons it lost some power but the truth is Gren is as strong as it was before, its insane versatility allows it to do what it could already do before we banned it and more against the new mons as well, being able to beat Hoopa-Unbound with U-turn, Specs Meloetta with Shadow Sneak or Ursaluna with Hydro Cannon, being able to do all of this in one set for the most part too. I am fine with giving it a shot again, but I believe as we continue to explore more options to adapt to the new threats Greninja will just go back to what it was before and we'll end up having to ban it for pretty much the same reasons.


I do not have any strong opinions on Gholdengo just yet because the current fresh state of the meta makes it difficult to accurately assess its power, but I do wanna mention that much like Greninja in a sense, Gholdengo is annoying in the builder and annoying by existing in the preview. Depending on what goes and what stays I could see it rising again to top threat for the same reasons it did the first time; huge variety of sets forcing you to either put a Gholdengo on your team or being at a disadvantage during preview.

 

[DripLegend]

thoughts on these scoundrels:

Hoopa has probably been the most centralizing force since home has dropped. It's getting mentioned everywhere and for good reason since it has no bad sets. It runs all choice items viably and has strong moves and insane base stats to help this thing nuke most threats in the tier. It encourages a lot of bug coverage, which is kinda funny but overall you end up wasting a slot when this thing isn't ever guaranteed to be brought (since most bug weak mons are either 1. faster or 2. hit with better coverage options). It never has a "dead" feel on preview (meaning it's always a threat or has a chance to be used" unlike Annihilape which had similar concerns of balance for the tier. While it might not seem as flexible, it has the option to go bulky and throw off most counters, which works well against mons that use coverage with no invest (u-turn on specs gren). It does have the issue of being pretty frail which is hard to account for when using it, but it has plenty of options regardless of that and still is a strong presence in the metagame. I'm not as big on the Hoopa hype as I was when home was first released, so i don't have any strong opinion on how it should be dealt with. I mainly want to see more creativity from Hoopa spreads or more sets being developed further to lure counters and see how healthy it is.

I don't enjoy this thing in the tier lmao. It basically has all the options as before, albeit with a few counter but accounting for this thing at all times, for each possible option, is not an enjoyable experience. It is probably the most banworthy mon for me atm, since it has potential to lure most answers and win, as shown before with the suspect before home's release. It's not really a matter of if gren can beat it's counters, but when, since it's just waiting for the right person to jump on the opportunity to make a new set. It has been shown to have a ton of options and accounting for this in the builder often benchmarking all sets, makes this thing a demon in the builder. Not only that but on preview it has immense pressure, and with the right teammates it can completely camouflage the set, making it even more of a pain to deal with.

goldenjoeseph is just good. I think it's ability is overall unhealthy, but it's not to the same level of being banworthy as the other 2 mentioned. It's pretty free to slap this guy anywhere since he's pretty good. Also @ ladder players this is not the only thing to beat iron valiant I promise. Just because it has the perfect ability to deal with it doesn't mean it's the only answer (people were able to play around it just fine pre-home). I think the presence of it can cause unhealthy developments in the metagame, as we have seen when Scream Tail was around, but this hasn't set off any red flags for me yet of getting quite to that level. I wouldn't be surprised if this mon became better overall down the road (especially since we're early into the metagame), but as of writing this post i feel like it's fine to keep this guy in the tier. let him have some fun man he just got out of jail :(((

dire claw is suboptimal and only used for cheese really. The argument "oh i don't want to miss" is invalid since it has poison jab which is the same BP. Gunk Shot is also way better than both of these. If dire claw ends up being problematic then i wouldn't be opposed to having action against this thing. Due to standard tiering policy banning dire claw = banning sneasler since it is the only pokemon to learn this stupid move. As much as sneasler is a cool addition to the tier, it has the most uncompetitive move of all time and would have to pay for it. Percentage wise the sleep chance is around 16.6 i think?? (if i'm wrong correct me) which is less than Relic Song at 20%. Figured i would mention this after some discussions about the move.

 

[DEG]

Honestly, I don't currently see the hype about Hoopa-U. I believe it's a great mon and has a lot of potential but I'm skeptical about it being broken. It is pretty susceptible to its checks and it really can't successfully "cheese" it's checks. I don't trust that it has 20+ sets lmao. CT/Gimmick sets for good mons exist and a lot of mons can pick what they want to beat but there's an opportunity cost and that is the case with Hoopa-U. It can bend over to be its checks but at the cost of being a mediocre set if the opponent doesn't bring that specific mon. It does punish lazyness and recycling the same checks in tournament plays and it has the potential to be overwhelming but I'm not convinced currently as everyone has stated above. DNB


yeye, Greninja might be one of my favorite mons but it doesn't fit in 1v1 for now. Extremely flexible, a lot of coverage PLUS STAB on all coverage w/ protean. Sub Torrent also viable, amazing speed tier, Greninja has it all. It can pick and choose its checks with minimum opportunity cost. It's def more problematic than Hoopa-U. BAN


One of the most unhealthy elements in the metagame right now. It's not necessarily broken but it wraps the whole metagame around it and its teammates. It enables so many broken and tough to beat cores and is the prime reason building is actually annoying. Of course fires grounds darks beat it to an extent but that's normal cause it's not broken, it's unhealthy. It can run with Hoopa-U, Regidrago, Valiant and more to just create a tough to beat core and tunnel vision the whole preview picking process. Keeping gholdengo in the metagame just means we're going to point fingers to all its teammates gradually and end up having stuff like Iron Valiant banned. BAN

My gholdengo take might be a hot take so I propose QBing Greninja and if the community is behind it suspect Hoopa-U then keep a closer look at Gholdengo during w1/before w1 of PL.

 

[SwordIsBored]

I'll try not to regurgitate what has already been said, I'm not known for my takes but some of the thoughts I've seen spread around seem plain wrong to me.

Hoopa-U really isn't busted, it's a Pokémon with limited versatility but a good mixed movepool with powerful offensive stats. It's Achilles heel lies in its lack of speed- being slow when considering the powercreep of SV, being weak to Fairy (Arguably the best type in 1v1) and four times weak to Bug-Type attacks which is incredibly common on a lot of Pokémon and it's detrimentally low Defense stat. This amount of weaknesses makes it naturally balanced in my opinion and isn't overbearing to beat, it can't really work past it's checks despite Roseli Berry and Gunk Shot but it loses a lot of value when not running a Choice item in my opinion and Gunk Shot is a natural in its set and should always be planned for. Unlike another Pokémon brought up here, it's simple to beat. Do not ban.

Greninja, the Pokémon I was referring to in the previous paragraph about Hoopa-U. In a direct comparison; you can see Greninja's vast movepool, ability to change typings, access to a powerful Hydro Cannon and cheesing past Pokémon with relative ease. Greninja can be terrifying to click into, despite the fact it can beat a lot of Pokémon unexpectedly through it's variety of sets even a standard Choice Specs ends up being a solid choice and is just as threatening on preview. Ban.

Gholdengo is the greatest glue in the tier right now, personally I've never seen anything like it. Its ability to pair well with the greatest metagame threats at the moment such as Hoopa-U, Iron Valiant and Regidrago to name some examples make it a powerful teammate and addition to any team. It's easy to slap on and versatile, running Reflect, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf and Air Balloon- my opinion in order of relevancy of the sets. I don't really see a Pokémon like this being overwhelming and I'd like to see it be meta for a while before making a decision as it doesn't feel as prevalent and defining as Hoopa-U and Greninja. Do not ban, for now.

 

[clerica]

I've sort of given my thoughts on these guys already in my metagame discussion post and spoken in the room about it plenty but I don't like the effect hoopa currently has on the meta and support a suspect test. Hoopa isn't impossible to beat and it isn't coming up with crazy new sets to suddenly beat bug types but it doesn't need to. What hoopa does is more akin to chi-yu in my eyes where it's really warping the meta around it and preventing development of pretty much anything else. There's a reason we've barely seen any greninja so far and that's because hoopa simply does more usually. Gren's certainly more annoying to cover but when I'm building I want my dark type to beat ghold and melo. Hoopa just blanket covers so much in its default sets that you don't really need to do much more than that. It invalidates almost every special attacker and can ev to bulk most physical attackers while still being a good set if it wants. Pair it with another broken and you cover 90% of the meta easily (ghold, valiant, drago, even spectrier works you have a bunch of options). In my eyes this is very similar to the effect chi-yu had where you just pair it with ghold and beat all without much effort with the entire tier handicapping themselves to ev and tech chi-yu instead of running sets that enhance their overall matchup spread. A mon can be beatable and still broken and the effect hoopa has on the meta is not healthy for its development. So much development right now just revolves around using suboptimal sets to beat hoopa instead of trying to be a useful pokemon which is especially concerning at the start of a meta where development should be strongest.

I also think gren in the long run isn't good for the tier but is currently held back by just not doing the job of a dark type as well as hoopa. It's definitely more annoying to cover than hoopa sure but just can't cover 60% of the tier in one set like hoopa. I think if hoopa were to be banned gren might finally be able to step out from under its shadow and take off, but I could be wrong. It's difficult to tell because items that could be useful vs gren currently aren't very useful because they struggle with hoopa. I don't think gren has a place in this meta in the long term but currently I disagree with banning it currently because it's been sidelined by hoopa for the time being and hasn't really had a place in the tier.

Ghold is fine and i have a hard time seeing this mon ever being broken again. With home here we have plenty of fires, grounds, and darks to handle it it's just difficult to run them with hoopa around. Pairing ghold with drago is pretty degenerate but we had that in SS with drago gross and volcanion and it worked out so i hope it'll stay fine this gen.

 

[Lumii]

There is some slight bit of awkwardness at having written the OTR but writing my own thoughts again but here we go ig.

I do think that Hoopa is more beatable than Greninja, but I also think that it's more warping. We're starting to see that the metagame will start revolving more and more around Hoopa and not Greninja because of how Hoopa is better into Gholdengo and Meloetta. In the initial bans, I had written in my comments that Greninja is a Pokemon that slowly burns the metagame around it. The effects will not be the clearest at first, but as it becomes more and more used, it just slowly makes everything revolve around it. Hoopa, however, seems to be the complete opposite for me. It's very quickly warping the metagame to revolve around it.

If there is not something that drastically changes my view of this metagame by whenever we vote, I will likely be voting ban on both Hoopa and Greninja. Once these Pokemon are banned, I can see Gholdengo possibly become overbearing but would feel like counters will develop to beat it.

I do think we should also potentially start looking at Meloetta, as it could also find itself much stronger after whatever the tiering decision ends up being regarding Hoopa and Greninja.

That's all I've got for now.

 

[fruan]

On Hoopa: what smely socks said. Uber stats + only 2 weaknesses (one of them basically irrelevant as it beats most fairies) oppress the tier.
You can talk all you want about "just run a bug move" but the pokemon that have to run a bug move for it are forced into worse sets than what they would want to run. It is the most meta warping pokemon and the tier would be much better off without it.

Also meloetta is the second most banworthy pokemon for me after hoopa. Another pokemon with 2 weaknesses, a forme change, and incredible stats.

Gren feels like galarian darmanitan to me now. Frail defensively but sub torrent nukes you and scarf picks off weak pokemon it has coverage for + can run weird sets with protean. Despite this, I really would like to see how the new pokemon shape up against it and hope we can give it an honest chance to truly determine if it's broken or not. I would like to hold off on a gren judgement before the meta has had a bit more to settle.

As a closing remark I'll reiterate that I hope Hoopa is looked into first as it feels the most warping, and then some time be provided so people can adapt to the change.

 

[bern]

SV 1v1 currently can only be described as a dumpster fire, a really fun one, but still a dumpster fire, and i have not seen a single person disagree with me on that. anyway here are my thoughts. (first post i make here so i may make some mistakes)

so this absolutely disgusting piece of a pokemon was not quickbanned like mew and magearna which is insane. it has two weaknesses, fairy (negated by gunk shot) and bug, and which isn't really a good type at all, and putting a bug move on every pokemon is also incredibly impractical because the bug type is resisted by seven other types, hoopa just in general rules over teambuilding, and if your team can't consistently handle it, then your team is bad.

greninja is currently kind of underrated as i've barely seen it on ladder, however it retains all of the same problems it had before, it's easy to compare gren with meow on paper but they're so different in practice. 3 out of the 5 meow sets run (aside from stab), fairy attack, fighting attack, and recharge move. but gren can run everything, ice beam, grass knot, gunk shot, extrasensory, low kick, shadow sneak, you name it. you're overall just praying the opponent has the gren set you think it does and that's obviously not really a good thing, so far it's been overshadowed by hoopa-u but if it gets banned i can see gren being immediately banworthy after.

i think ghold currently is absolutely fine, the countergame is bearable with the new mons, and no broken sets have shown up yet. however given that the two other ban-worthy pokemon are dark types, i think gholdengo will see itself being way stronger after the other two get the boot, ghold also likes to do this really fun thing which is pair itself with literally ANY team excellently, and it can do its job consistently, for the moment i'd say it is fine as is, but i believe we should be careful about it after we ban hoopa (at least).

extra stuff

similar to gholdengo i can see this pokemon being absurdly overpowered after hoopa gets banned. it's incredibly versatile (fast, strong on both sides of physical and special attack), can hax you with relic song (we all agree sleep sucks) and is just overall uncompetitive in my opinion. probably have another discussion on meloetta and gholdengo cuz these two can be a huge problem.

so drip mentioned sneasler so i wanted to talk about it, it really isn't a problem currently, dire claw is worse than gunk shot and you're only using it to hax. i did say that meloetta hax is a problem, and it is for sneasler too, but sneasler is just not good for that, it's way too frail to actually use it for poison or para, you're pretty much begging for the 1/6 chance you put them to sleep, which isn't good when you're relying on it on losing matchups (again, sneasler can't take a hit even if it wanted to so it's mainly using dire claw in would-be counters).

since no one talked about it, i think it'd save everyone a headache to ban snow cloak and sand veil. we all know evasion has no place in a competitive environment and even though it's a pain to set up, i just think we'd be worse off without banning it, we kind of already have evasion clause with bright powder and evasion moves banned, so might as well go the whole way.

tl;dr: ban greninja and evasion abilities, suspect test hoopa-u, keep a close look on gholdengo, meloetta and maybe sneasler.