Sabréclair
I’m a big Forretress lover. Because it can’t easily heal and rewards you long term, I always saw it as the type of mon designed for high caliber players. Unfortunately, because of its lack of reliability as a spinner and the build restrictions it implies you will only see it 2-3 times in SPL. Such a team could be considered outdated in today's DPP; however, I think this Pokémon deserves more than that. This is my modern take on Forretress stall, I hope you will enjoy it.
Building process
Forretress gives unparalleled hazard control, as well as supports several spikes weak pokemon. In comparison to the standard choice for Spikes, Skarmory, Forretress can't phaze and needs a strong defensive core to compensate for opposing set-up. I decided I would not use ScarfTar's Pursuit support, who stacks an awkward Breloom weakness.
While Forretress + Resttalk Gyarados is close to being solved in the current metagame, there exists another combo that hasn't been explored as much : Forretress + Zapdos. Zapdos covers Breloom, Gyarados and Skarmory all in one slot, while Forretress’s spikes allow the bird to pressure Bulky mons like Tyranitar and Swampert more easily.
Hippowdon is a natural complement to a Flyer + Forretress combo on stall. It covers the Tyranitar weakness and gives a nice immunity to electric type attacks.
A staple of modern stall teams, Clefable comes to ruin everyone’s day. It’s pretty much mandatory to take Lava Plumes, Hydro Pumps and Draco Meteors.
Problem now is : I need a second dragon resist. When your only dragon resist on DPP stall is your spiker, you patch with defensive WishTect Jirachi and call it a day. It also gives Forretress more longevity to combat Skarmory by passing Wish to it.
I typically like to have a win condition in my stall team, which tends to be bulky Calm Mind users. Clefable and Jirachi were already on the team, and the only 2 good options left are Latias and Suicune. Both Suicune and Latias offer a Water and Fire resistance while taking advantage of Spikes; Latias with Roar and Suicune with its bulk, Pressure, and defensive profile. Suicune’s greater physical bulk and Water STAB ended up being more attractive to me: in my opinion, the metagame is overprepared for Calm Mind Latias, as multiple Steel-types, Clefable, status, and Tyranitar commonly checking it.
This team ended up very fat, but it fits everything I felt I need: an overwhelming strong defensive core, Rapid Spin, and a strong win condition in CroCune + Spikes support.
The team
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 108 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off
- Earthquake
- Roar
Description :
When looking at my possible leads, Hippowdon feels the most natural. With its large pool of PP and extreme resilience against common stall Pokemon such as physical Jirachi, it drains PP of recovery moves, and paves the way for your Zapdos and Suicune in the later stages of the game. In stall matchups, Hippowdon’s sand, bulk, and longevity allows it set up Stealth Rock throughout the game and rack up entry hazard damage once Spikes are set. Setting up rocks and sand turn 1 also chips Dragonite and Gyarados, and prevents them taking advantage of Forretress’s and Suicune’s passivity. If it manages to dodge Trick, status and Explosion, Hippo is a terror for most offensive teams, and should be kept alive for as long as possible. Because of Spikes, and the team’s sturdiness against Gliscor, Roar is preferred over Ice Fang to drag in Dragonite, repeatedly. Furthermore, Hippowdon can repeatedly drag in Spikes weak Pokemon like Jirachi and Tyranitar, while forcing them out with the threat of Earthquake. Hippowdon also acts as my backup plan against bulky special attackers such as Zapdos and Rotom, thanks to bulk and Electric-immunity. Despite the negative effects of sand for Suicune and Zapdos, the pure Ground typing of Hippowdon complements them nicely by providing defensive redundancy against offensive threats, in case one of them gets haxed. This forms a very solid core capable of handling the physical threats, or bulky offense with consistency.
Other options:
- The EVs are somewhat flexible, depending on what you expect to face. 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe is an alternative spread to guaranteed survive Close Combat from +2 Lucario, walls Dragon Dance Tyranitar even better, and gives you a 37.5% chance to survive explosion from lead Metagross.
- With a more physically based spread, special attacking Electric-types such as Zapdos and Rotom can become a problem if Clefable is weakened; however, Hippowdon handles HO much more easily.
- A nice middle ground is 252 HP / 192 Def / 60 SpD / 4 Spe, which survives Lucario’s +2 Close Combat after Stealth Rock.
- Max spdef trades a great HO matchup for the ability to handle mixed attackers (notably Flygon and Dragonite), keep rocks up against Surf Starmie, and provide better counterplay to Heatran. It’s typically inferior to physdef here.
Lead matchups:
Hippowdon doesn’t have the greatest lead matchup spread, but combined with Forretress you get a decent early game.
Aerodactyl :
Go Forry on the Taunt, then Payback once, spam spin until Taunt wears off. Then I either Spike or Payback depending on the opponent.
Azelf :
Same sequence as Aerodactyl and hope he’s not an old Fire Blast variant. If Forry gets fully paralyzed then too bad let it take take the boom. Forretress doesn’t need to be at full vs HO anyway.
Breloom :
Rocks on the Spore/Seed Bomb. If it’s scarf then I can burn sleep turns, if it shows Toxic Orb I go Zapdos.
Bronzong :
I get rocks, then go Forry and I now have a wide array of options. I might Earthquake predicting Magnezone.
Crobat :
Go Zapdos on the Taunt, then double to Hippo on the U-turn.
Dragonite :
I rocks then Roar. Hopefully he’s not mixed.
Empoleon :
I go Clef on the Hydro then heal up. I wouldn’t bother spinning as long as it’s alive.
Flyon :
Free rocks yay.
Forretress:
I Earthquake to scout the set, then rocks, then go to my own Forretress to spin. I’d expect Offense-HO for physdef and balance for spedef.
Froslass :
I Earthquake twice. If I know my opponent I might try to sneak rocks.
Gallade :
I Earthquake , too bad if they switch.
Gliscor :
I try to rocks then go Forry if it taunts.
Gyarados :
I go suicune to take Waterfall. If it’s cb I will double back to Hippo to get rocks, otherwise I will surf it down.
Heatran :
I go Suicune
. I wish I had a better answer to this lead but I’ve been too scared of specs Overheat from laddering.
Hippowdon :
I trade rocks then try to get the Roar out first.
Infernape :
I rocks predicting the U-turn. If it’s that 2009 lead set oh well.
Jirachi :
I rocks. If it rocks too I will roar on the second turn, otherwise it depends on how much offensive investment it showed.
Kingdra :
I go Suicune, who covers Hydro Pump, Draco Meteor and Yawn. I might have to Rest but then Kingdra is around 50% health. You can go Clefable too, but Hydro + DM is a roll to 2HKO.
Latias :
I go Jirachi to take the Draco then I Body Slam the switch in.
Machamp :
Earthquake then Slack Off. If I failed to heal I will go Zapdos.
Metagross :
I rocks, too bad if Metagross booms. If we traded rocks I switch go Forretress to get a spike up and sponge a potential boom.
Nidoqueen :
Earthquake then rocks on the Skarm switch.
Roserade :
I go Zapdos and burn sleep turns.
Rotom :
I rocks then go Clef.
Skarmory :
I rocks then go Forry to spin. Consider using Payback if it used Stealth Rock.
Smeargle :
Suicune to take the sleep, then Forry to force a ghost.
Starmie :
I go Suicune.
Swampert :
Going Suicune is too passive so I rocks and pray it’s not a special variant.
Tyranitar:
Earthquake then rocks on the Skarmory switch.
Raikou :
I Slack Off to scout the set, then either rocks, go Clef or Jirachi depending.
Uxie :
I Rocks then go Forry to spike up. You can Earthquake/Roar on the second turn too.
Zapdos :
I Rocks, then depending on the damage I either slack off or go clef/Jirachi.
Yanmega :
I go Clefable. If it’s speed boost I will go to Zapdos and get a toxic off
Go Forry on the Taunt, then Payback once, spam spin until Taunt wears off. Then I either Spike or Payback depending on the opponent.
Azelf :
Same sequence as Aerodactyl and hope he’s not an old Fire Blast variant. If Forry gets fully paralyzed then too bad let it take take the boom. Forretress doesn’t need to be at full vs HO anyway.
Breloom :
Rocks on the Spore/Seed Bomb. If it’s scarf then I can burn sleep turns, if it shows Toxic Orb I go Zapdos.
Bronzong :
I get rocks, then go Forry and I now have a wide array of options. I might Earthquake predicting Magnezone.
Crobat :
Go Zapdos on the Taunt, then double to Hippo on the U-turn.
Dragonite :
I rocks then Roar. Hopefully he’s not mixed.
Empoleon :
I go Clef on the Hydro then heal up. I wouldn’t bother spinning as long as it’s alive.
Flyon :
Free rocks yay.
Forretress:
I Earthquake to scout the set, then rocks, then go to my own Forretress to spin. I’d expect Offense-HO for physdef and balance for spedef.
Froslass :
I Earthquake twice. If I know my opponent I might try to sneak rocks.
Gallade :
I Earthquake , too bad if they switch.
Gliscor :
I try to rocks then go Forry if it taunts.
Gyarados :
I go suicune to take Waterfall. If it’s cb I will double back to Hippo to get rocks, otherwise I will surf it down.
Heatran :
I go Suicune
. I wish I had a better answer to this lead but I’ve been too scared of specs Overheat from laddering.Hippowdon :
I trade rocks then try to get the Roar out first.
Infernape :
I rocks predicting the U-turn. If it’s that 2009 lead set oh well.
Jirachi :
I rocks. If it rocks too I will roar on the second turn, otherwise it depends on how much offensive investment it showed.
Kingdra :
I go Suicune, who covers Hydro Pump, Draco Meteor and Yawn. I might have to Rest but then Kingdra is around 50% health. You can go Clefable too, but Hydro + DM is a roll to 2HKO.
Latias :
I go Jirachi to take the Draco then I Body Slam the switch in.
Machamp :
Earthquake then Slack Off. If I failed to heal I will go Zapdos.
Metagross :
I rocks, too bad if Metagross booms. If we traded rocks I switch go Forretress to get a spike up and sponge a potential boom.
Nidoqueen :
Earthquake then rocks on the Skarm switch.
Roserade :
I go Zapdos and burn sleep turns.
Rotom :
I rocks then go Clef.
Skarmory :
I rocks then go Forry to spin. Consider using Payback if it used Stealth Rock.
Smeargle :
Suicune to take the sleep, then Forry to force a ghost.
Starmie :
I go Suicune.
Swampert :
Going Suicune is too passive so I rocks and pray it’s not a special variant.
Tyranitar:
Earthquake then rocks on the Skarmory switch.
Raikou :
I Slack Off to scout the set, then either rocks, go Clef or Jirachi depending.
Uxie :
I Rocks then go Forry to spike up. You can Earthquake/Roar on the second turn too.
Zapdos :
I Rocks, then depending on the damage I either slack off or go clef/Jirachi.
Yanmega :
I go Clefable. If it’s speed boost I will go to Zapdos and get a toxic off
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SpD
Careful Nature
- Encore
- Knock Off
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
Description :
I wish I could use Blissey, but Clefable is a such a powerhouse for stall on stall matchup with Knock Off and immunity to passive damage being invaluable in modern DPP. Knock Off, combined with permanent sandstorm compounds passive damage, while Seismic Toss directly wears down foes such as Breloom, Dragonite, and Tyranitar all game. Encore is one of the moves that defines Clefable. In generation 4, Encore lasts for 4 to 8 turns, preventing set up sweepers from taking advantage of Clefable and locking them into weaker attackers. 240 SpD ensures Clefable only has a 0.4% chance to get 2HKOed by offensive Suicune’s Hydro Pump, while the rest is placed in defense to handle Pursuit and physical moves.
Clefable’s only above average special bulk means it requires help for Life Orb and Choice Specs users, typically from Suicune or Jirachi’s bulk and resistances.
Other options:
- Thunder Wave is a better option to cover offensive setup sweepers. It also helps against Skarmory and Starmie, while slowing down opposing Clefable and forcing out Jirachi with the threat of paralysis.
- 32 defense to have an even better cover of mixed Flygon and survive Scarftar’s superpower.
- Speed creep to Encore Calm Mind Clefable.
- Since this team dislikes trick, an encore-trick-seismic toss-soft boiled set with Sticky Barb is possible Latias’ Choice Specs Draco Meteor becomes a roll however.
- Ice Beam leaves you vulnerable to Substitute + Calm Mind users, and you don’t need to cover Gliscor more than it already is.
- Protect feels kind of wasted as Clef is your main switch in to opposing Clefables and this team doesn’t have Toxic Spikes to abuse stalling turns.
Credits to Castgurl for the art
Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Atk / 144 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 28 Spe
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Payback
- Earthquake
Description :
Little worm comes back after its 10 year disappearance. The role compression it provides is very valuable here. Despite the high use of stall teams, many choose to ignore spinning all together by dropping Rotom-A or Gengar or simply use Tyranitar to trap Starmie, the most common Spinner. Without the help of Spikes, these teams’ win condition such as offensive Jirachi or mixed Flygon struggle to make meaningful progress, giving you an edge in the matchup.
One thing you will notice is that this Forretress is physically defensive, instead of the standard spdef one. Because of the extreme weakness to hazards this team has, I need it to be able to hold its ground against Skarmory. Going from 22.8-27.1 to 18.9-22.3% Brave Bird damage gives you a lot of freedom to mess around laying down your spikes. Spdef protect Forretress has issues with dealing with hazards due to not being immune to them as well as taking a lot of damage while trying to spin that it can barely make it a second or a third time. Physdef Forry on the other hand can get multiple layers of spikes in front of a lot of earthquake users and can get wish passed on lower thresholds of health Forretress’ new gained bulk affords it to use Earthquake. This allows it to check paralyzed Steel-types and prevent Lucario, a major threat, from setting up. Such set is also useful against magnezone balance teams, as the threat of being slower than earthquake Forry as a result of paralysis protects Jirachi from being trapped. The attack EVs allows it to OHKO Magnezone and Heatran on the switch with Stealth Rock up. Payback chunks ghost types, OHKOing Gengar and 2HKOing scarf Rotom. Restalk versions will be 3HKOed, provided it doesn’t get burned by Will-O-Wisp or 2hkoed by Thunderbolt.
Other options:
- Replace Payback for Gyro Ball, though this time you will never get past Rotom. This helps against Dragon Dance Dragonite and Dragon Dance Tyranitar lacking a Fire move, while still KOing Gengar on the switch.
- You can run max speed to tie with other Forretress: the 28 speed IVS allowed to outspeed some paralyzed scarfers while having an information advantage in Forretress dittos.
- You can try the standard specially defensive set with Spikes, Rapid Spin, Protect and Payback : this is a more defensive take on the team that puts more emphasis on Zapdos’s walling capabilities. In that case, running more defense on Hippowdon is advised.
- Toxic Spikes are not advised on this team, due to Forretress being used more offensively and the team not set up for stalling with Toxic Spikes. Tyranitar, Infernape, and Suicune, Pokemon that struggle with them the most, often carry counter measures such as a grounded Poison-type or Healing Wish.
Credits to MisterRedButcher for the art
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 24 SpD
Bold Nature
Ivs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic
Description :
Zapdos’ typing and Pressure ability gives it enough attributes to distinguish itself from defensive Latias. This physical wall provides a Fighting-type resist, great coverage, and a solid check to Gyarados and Breloom. Zapdos is very effective against most offensive teams especially if they lack Tyranitar and can’t keep Stealth Rock up; unfortunately, due to its Stealth Rock weakness, it must be used sporadically lest it waste momentum. Toxic combined with multiple layers of spikes allows Zapdos to punish greatly its switch ins. In stall match ups, it forces Clefable to come in and waste PP in conjunction with Pressure, critical for Suicune.
Other options:
- Heat Wave for Lucario, SD Scizor and Breloom.
- You can move the special defense elsewhere ; for example 32 speed EVs allow Zapdos to get the jump on positive-natured Tyranitar and neutral 70s.
- Discharge can punish opposing Jirachi switch ins, although it is rather weak and may paralyze Pokemon you want to Toxic.
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 SpD
Impish Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Body Slam
- Iron Head
Description :
Another staple of balance and stall. While Hippowdon handles physically based teams, WishTect Jirachi proves to be difficult break for most offensive teams using Tyranitar, Choiced Latias, Choice Scarf Rotom and Breloom. Quite often, Jirachi is a nice midground that allows you to recover momentum and make progress. On stall matchups, Wishtect Jirachi won’t be used has much as a check for everything, instead spreading paralysis on walls such as Skarmory, other Jirachi, and Clefable. It prioritizes using Wish throughout the game to keep its teammates Zapdos, Suicune and especially Forretress healthy. Once Skarmory is down, Jirachi plays a more active part of the game and takes advantage of Spikes support to pressure its switch ins. Body Slam is the main damaging tool, paralyzing Steel types on the switch, combined with Iron Head and Protect to abuse leftovers recovery. Protect also stops Copycat Lucario.
Other options :
- 32 speed to threaten ddtar.
- U-turn over Body Slam to escape Magnezone is another possible option, at the cost of not being able to paralyze switch ins with paralysis.
Credits to Aerosocks for the art
Suzanne (Suicune) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Description :
It’s not hard to see why Crocune isn’t played. It is weak to Spikes, Trick, Explosion, and Encore, but more frustratingly, Crocune is a giant hax magnet. I cannot count the amount of times this Pokémon dies to a crit Earthquake, a Thunderbolt paralysis, or poor Sleep Talk rolls. Before setting up, it is quite passive, as it gives free set up to Water-resistant Dragon Dance users such as Gyarados and Dragonite. Yet, Crocune still has this ability to make a gigantic comeback once the opposing team is weakened, especially if it the last Pokemon and can’t be phazed. This makes it more appealing than the other bulky water type Milotic.
Suicune additionally helps wall Water and Fire-types while setting up. Such thing is made possible by the presence of Wish from Jirachi and Forretress’s Rapid Spin. The list of Pokémon it can set up on is longer than you’d expect, provided it is at full health.
12 speed EVs outspeeds Resttalk Rotom to help setup versus stall.
Other options:
- Max/max/4 spedef or adding more speed creep is possible to outspeed fast Machamp and some Rotoms.
Threat List
Defensive Threats :
Abomasnow :
Spike up and scare him out with Jirachi. Be wary of Wood Hammer, Clef is important in this matchup.
Blissey :
Knock it with clef, scout for Thunder Wave and Flamethrower and punish with Jirachi/Forry if she doesn’t have it. Seismic Toss a lot to punish Machamp/Breloom switch ins.
Celebi :
Go Clefable, but don’t overuse Seismic Toss pps and refuse paralysis trades. Playing around Nasty Plot variants is about forcing leaf storm without Clefable dying.
Clefable :
Clef war it, you can go Hippo to keep some pps. If the game drags on and you revealed toxic on Zapdos you can pressure stall encore and seismic toss.
CM variants can be handled in different ways. First option is encore with your own Clefable, which allows you to burn a lot of their soft boiled pps. The second is Jirachi’s iron head, which becomes a reasonable option once CM Clef has been knocked off. While Hippo sustains a lot of damage from phazing it, the teams CM Clef fits on gives a lot of opportunities for Hippo to slack off. Finally, Crocune wins the CM war, but it is susceptible to phazing from Clef’s partners.
Donphan :
This thing spins for free unfortunately. It doesn’t do much else though, sit on it with Zapdos/Hippo.
Forretress :
Them being spedef means your earthquakes actually bites them. Paralyze it with Jirachi on their spin, then lay down hazards and hit it to pressure it.
Gliscor :
Knock it with clef, paralyze it with Jirachi and don’t overuse Zapdos when rocks are up. Forretress can freely spin on it, but be aware that this thing is often paired with Magnezone. Sd variants can be roared out, keep Suicune healthy for those. As long as you manage to clear opposing spikes you are fine.
Hippowdon:
Hippowdon isn’t very threatening to stall. You can toxic it with Zapdos, knock it with Clef and threaten it with Suicune. Don’t sit on it with Forretress for too long and slowly stack Spikes to force it to Slack Off everytime it comes in.
Latias :
Prevents Suicune from taking over stall teams . It might come a time where the opponent sends it on Zapdos to save Clefable pps and you can Toxic it. Paralyzing it is okay but worse. Hippo sits on it if it is statused. Forretress takes non negligeable damage from Dragon Pulse and it typically has other entries in the stall matchup.
Moltres :
The only team with it is demolished by defensive calm minders ( unless you get massively outplayed ). Cripple Zapdos, then Wall Moltres with Clefable/Suicune and you will be fine.
Milotic :
Walled by Clef and Jirachi, if you can get status on it that’s cool. Don’t in Zapdos when rocks are up (obv.)
Nidoqueen :
Killed by spikes and everyone on the team. For midgame Nidoqueen, switch Hippo in before the second layer of tspikes. Forry can spin on it and get wish passed to, provided Nidoqueen does not carry the occasional Flamethrower.
Starmie :
Starmie is not a problem in itself, but spin prevents annoying mons like Breloom and Dragonite to get worn down. If it doesn’t have Thunder Wave, I prefer to go Jirachi as a more proactive answer than Clef. As a last option, Forretress can bully bulky surf variants.
Skarmory :
If they don’t have spinblock, physdef Forretress takes nothing from brave bird and maintains hazard control all game. Maintain Forry healthy by Wish passing to it and go Zapdos on predicted Brave Birds. Paralyzing Skarmory is very beneficial because 1) it gives Forretress additional turns of recovery 2) Hippowdon now gets the Roar out first 3) you might be able to break through it with Clefable and few lucky turns.
Rotom :
The biggest pain for Forretress. As a first step, you should trade hazards and keep Forry healthy with Wish. Then knock it, and attempt to flinch it down with Jirachi. Another annoying part is that it can Rest loop on Clefable and there isn’t much you can do. Hippo can sit on it for a while. While risky, Suicune can set up on it in the late game.
Tentacruel :
Kill it then remove hazards. Tspikes isn’t the end of the world for this team but Rapid Spin is annoying.
Vaporeon :
Knock + para it. Vaporeon is a relic from the past and I have not faced it from serious opponents.
Zapdos :
Annoying because it ppstalls Clefable. Knock + para it then spam Seismic Toss. Hippowdon has some spedef and can phaze it (be careful of Toxic). Your own Zapdos can Toxic it.
Spike up and scare him out with Jirachi. Be wary of Wood Hammer, Clef is important in this matchup.
Blissey :
Knock it with clef, scout for Thunder Wave and Flamethrower and punish with Jirachi/Forry if she doesn’t have it. Seismic Toss a lot to punish Machamp/Breloom switch ins.
Celebi :
Go Clefable, but don’t overuse Seismic Toss pps and refuse paralysis trades. Playing around Nasty Plot variants is about forcing leaf storm without Clefable dying.
Clefable :
Clef war it, you can go Hippo to keep some pps. If the game drags on and you revealed toxic on Zapdos you can pressure stall encore and seismic toss.
CM variants can be handled in different ways. First option is encore with your own Clefable, which allows you to burn a lot of their soft boiled pps. The second is Jirachi’s iron head, which becomes a reasonable option once CM Clef has been knocked off. While Hippo sustains a lot of damage from phazing it, the teams CM Clef fits on gives a lot of opportunities for Hippo to slack off. Finally, Crocune wins the CM war, but it is susceptible to phazing from Clef’s partners.
Donphan :
This thing spins for free unfortunately. It doesn’t do much else though, sit on it with Zapdos/Hippo.
Forretress :
Them being spedef means your earthquakes actually bites them. Paralyze it with Jirachi on their spin, then lay down hazards and hit it to pressure it.
Gliscor :
Knock it with clef, paralyze it with Jirachi and don’t overuse Zapdos when rocks are up. Forretress can freely spin on it, but be aware that this thing is often paired with Magnezone. Sd variants can be roared out, keep Suicune healthy for those. As long as you manage to clear opposing spikes you are fine.
Hippowdon:
Hippowdon isn’t very threatening to stall. You can toxic it with Zapdos, knock it with Clef and threaten it with Suicune. Don’t sit on it with Forretress for too long and slowly stack Spikes to force it to Slack Off everytime it comes in.
Latias :
Prevents Suicune from taking over stall teams
. It might come a time where the opponent sends it on Zapdos to save Clefable pps and you can Toxic it. Paralyzing it is okay but worse. Hippo sits on it if it is statused. Forretress takes non negligeable damage from Dragon Pulse and it typically has other entries in the stall matchup.Moltres :
The only team with it is demolished by defensive calm minders ( unless you get massively outplayed ). Cripple Zapdos, then Wall Moltres with Clefable/Suicune and you will be fine.
Milotic :
Walled by Clef and Jirachi, if you can get status on it that’s cool. Don’t in Zapdos when rocks are up (obv.)
Nidoqueen :
Killed by spikes and everyone on the team. For midgame Nidoqueen, switch Hippo in before the second layer of tspikes. Forry can spin on it and get wish passed to, provided Nidoqueen does not carry the occasional Flamethrower.
Starmie :
Starmie is not a problem in itself, but spin prevents annoying mons like Breloom and Dragonite to get worn down. If it doesn’t have Thunder Wave, I prefer to go Jirachi as a more proactive answer than Clef. As a last option, Forretress can bully bulky surf variants.
Skarmory :
If they don’t have spinblock, physdef Forretress takes nothing from brave bird and maintains hazard control all game. Maintain Forry healthy by Wish passing to it and go Zapdos on predicted Brave Birds. Paralyzing Skarmory is very beneficial because 1) it gives Forretress additional turns of recovery 2) Hippowdon now gets the Roar out first 3) you might be able to break through it with Clefable and few lucky turns.
Rotom :
The biggest pain for Forretress. As a first step, you should trade hazards and keep Forry healthy with Wish. Then knock it, and attempt to flinch it down with Jirachi. Another annoying part is that it can Rest loop on Clefable and there isn’t much you can do. Hippo can sit on it for a while. While risky, Suicune can set up on it in the late game.
Tentacruel :
Kill it then remove hazards. Tspikes isn’t the end of the world for this team but Rapid Spin is annoying.
Vaporeon :
Knock + para it. Vaporeon is a relic from the past and I have not faced it from serious opponents.
Zapdos :
Annoying because it ppstalls Clefable. Knock + para it then spam Seismic Toss. Hippowdon has some spedef and can phaze it (be careful of Toxic). Your own Zapdos can Toxic it.
Offensive Threats :
Breloom :
Sleep is usually a pain for stall, but this team has solid Breloom counters. Unless it came on Clef, go Suicune to take the sleep then go Zapdos/Jirachi.
You need to maintain as many layers of spikes as you can against swords dance variants.
Bronzong :
The whole team sits on it. I usually go forry and if I have a spike up I’ll try to smash the switch in.
Dragonite :
Go Hippo and slack off when he’s at +1. The second time he sets up go for Roar. If he ends up being life orb go Forry/Jirachi and punch him down. 90%+ of them are offensive Dragon Dance and can be handeled with Hippo, the % rest is composed of 2 sets that are much tougher.
Bulky dd : difficult to handle as a last mon, look out for it if you see Starmie + Mag and keep your Clef + Zapdos alive.
Mixed Dragonite is an enormous threat to this team. Thankfully that’s rare.
Empoleon :
Torrent is a bit annoying. You can encore/paralyze it thought.
SD variants aren’t rly played anymore but they are a bit problematic if Zapdos has been weakened.
Flygon :
Scarf + and band are dead weight vs this team, heal up on their move then go to the appropriate answer. Mixgon is annoying with lots of hazards, but every member of the squad bar forry can take an attack and heal up. If at -2 SpeA, Suicune can set up on it.
Gengar :
If life orb go Jirachi, if black sludge refuse the burn trade. I'd knock it then check it with Suicune. Spinblock is annoying, but Forry’s Payback OHKOes this thing with rocks. Get 0/1 layer before killing it.
Gyarados :
If rocks are up this thing isn’t a problem. Quite often, they are not and Gyarados can come multiple times to threaten the team. If fully heatlhy, Zapdos is the first switch in. Otherwise Jirachi can paralyze it, Clefable can Encore it and Hippo can Roar it. If Forry was in, I will either switch to Jirachi, Hippo or Clefable depending on the game. Non leftovers variants can also be handeled by Suicune.
Heatran :
Go Clef unless you know he doesn’t carry hp grass. Paralysing it with Jirachi helps a lot, provided it hasn’t boomed on Clefable yet. The problem isn’t Heatran itself but rather the whole it creates for water and electric types.
The specs variant is problematic, but I only see it on ladder and you can ppstall overheat with Suicune and protect.
Infernape :
Suicune looks the closest to a switch in to this thing. Play around life orb and punish his attempts to come in with seismic toss/forry’s earthquake. Expert belt and leftovers variants don’t hit as hard and can be played around with Zapdos and Suicune. Go Hippo on cb variants. I guess Nasty Plot is a 6-0 but I haven’t seen this set in a year+.
Jirachi :
4 Steel resists + Hippo makes physical and mixed Jirachi struggle to break, even with max hazards. Try to para it first before sending another member. Special variants get encored/earthquaked.
Kingdra :
Go suicune on Specs variants, Jirachi can PPstall and para it. Physical variants are weak and can be handeled by the healthiest member of the squad. Lvl 2 threat only because of rain.
Latias :
The only annoying thing about this mon is Trick which the team can’t absorb well. Clef + Jirachi tanks it all day, Hippo and Zapdos can take a specs draco from full. Kinda obvious but don’t midground Forretress into a specs variant.
Lucario :
The biggest threat to the team. While in theory Zapdos can handle it, the bird lacks Heat Wave and has usually been chipped by rocks, Gyarados etc. If Lucario comes on Clef/Jirachi, going for Encore/Body Slam is a reasonable option in the mid-late game. At 100% and rocks up, Hippo, Forry and Suicune (in that order) can go for the +2 close combat roll and check Lucario. The Ice Punch variant usually claims the game, thankfully it’s not that common.
Copycat Scarf Lucario + Hazards doesn’t really have counterplay; Just pray Jirachi gets switched in and Protect, then avoid using Roar if you can help it.
Ludicolo :
There is no real switch in to this thing. Stall rain turns and para it with Jirachi. Clefable takes less than 50% under rain if you managed to Knock it.
Machamp :
Pressure from Zapdos + Suicune prevents it from damaging really badly your team. Zapdos is the primary switch in, Hippo handles it okay and so does Jirachi.
Magnezone :
Get a sense for mag comps and earthquake with Forry on the switch. Once you revealed Earthquake, spike up carefully and be wary of double switches. If Jirachi has been trapped first then your Forry now outspeeds and kills it.
Mamoswine :
Hippo handles it. Suicune can check it, Forry can finish it. Not a problem.
Metagross :
You should have no problem with him at all, you can even wish pass against him. I usually go Forry to take the iron ball and spike/spin.
Roserade :
Toxic spikes isn’t too big of a problem, spikes is. Toss it down with clef, then be patient with Forry and go for Payback on the ghost.
Scizor :
Tough part is going to be paralyzing it without sustaining lots of damage. Then keep your Clef to counter a last mon setup attempt. LO sd is handeled by Zap+ Hippo depending on their matchup and current health. On CB, go Forry/Hippo so you can preserve Zapdos’ health.
Shaymin :
Clef handles it no problem. Beware of pursuit support/boom in the back because this thing is kind of annoying with rocks up if Clefable is down.
Snorlax :
Walled by the whole team. Curse variants gets roared out or encored, try to get 1 layer of spikes to pressure it. Against CB, go either Forry or Hippo/Jirachi, depending of the hazards on the field.
Staraptor:
Jirachi sits on it, Zapdos and Hippo can’t really switch into cb variants but can heal on it. Eventually it will die to residual damage.
Suicune :
Clef can handle it, but it usually died earlier to boom from Heatran. Jirachi can make its way through it. Once it’s paralyzed Crocune can set up on it and go for the game, provided no crit.
Swampert :
Hippowdon doesn’t stay on it very well. Suicune is 3HKOed with rocks but it can pressure earthquake pps. Forretress and lay down spikes. Eventually I will go on Zapdos and Toxic it. Poison >> Paralysis.
Rotom :
This team does not have a true Trick absorber. The special attack investment makes it difficult for Suicune to set up on this thing, so it is handled by a combination of Clefable, Jirachi and Hippowdon. Forretress loses the 1v1.
Rhyperior :
As long as Hippo is up you don’t have to worry about that thing. If it’s dead however, you have to Knock it with clef and somewhat answer it with Suicune.
Team Paste : Hopefully you haven’t skipped until now.
Togekiss :
Zapdos, Jirachi and Clef can handle it, Hippo can phaze it. Watch out for Substitute.
Tyranitar :
Hippo sits on it, Suicune can set up on it in the later stages on the game, Jirachi checks it. Scout for Fire Blast before sending Forry.
Weavile :
Jirachi heals on it, Clefable can somewhat stay on it and damage it with sand.
Zapdos :
Clefable walls life orb variants, while specs can be switched around. Hippowdon can somewhat sit on it.
Yanmega :
Clefable walls it, Jirachi can heal on it. Speed Boost variants give Zapdos a free Roost.
Sleep is usually a pain for stall, but this team has solid Breloom counters. Unless it came on Clef, go Suicune to take the sleep then go Zapdos/Jirachi.
You need to maintain as many layers of spikes as you can against swords dance variants.
Bronzong :
The whole team sits on it. I usually go forry and if I have a spike up I’ll try to smash the switch in.
Dragonite :
Go Hippo and slack off when he’s at +1. The second time he sets up go for Roar. If he ends up being life orb go Forry/Jirachi and punch him down. 90%+ of them are offensive Dragon Dance and can be handeled with Hippo, the % rest is composed of 2 sets that are much tougher.
Bulky dd : difficult to handle as a last mon, look out for it if you see Starmie + Mag and keep your Clef + Zapdos alive.
Mixed Dragonite is an enormous threat to this team. Thankfully that’s rare.
Empoleon :
Torrent is a bit annoying. You can encore/paralyze it thought.
SD variants aren’t rly played anymore but they are a bit problematic if Zapdos has been weakened.
Flygon :
Scarf + and band are dead weight vs this team, heal up on their move then go to the appropriate answer. Mixgon is annoying with lots of hazards, but every member of the squad bar forry can take an attack and heal up. If at -2 SpeA, Suicune can set up on it.
Gengar :
If life orb go Jirachi, if black sludge refuse the burn trade. I'd knock it then check it with Suicune. Spinblock is annoying, but Forry’s Payback OHKOes this thing with rocks. Get 0/1 layer before killing it.
Gyarados :
If rocks are up this thing isn’t a problem. Quite often, they are not and Gyarados can come multiple times to threaten the team. If fully heatlhy, Zapdos is the first switch in. Otherwise Jirachi can paralyze it, Clefable can Encore it and Hippo can Roar it. If Forry was in, I will either switch to Jirachi, Hippo or Clefable depending on the game. Non leftovers variants can also be handeled by Suicune.
Heatran :
Go Clef unless you know he doesn’t carry hp grass. Paralysing it with Jirachi helps a lot, provided it hasn’t boomed on Clefable yet. The problem isn’t Heatran itself but rather the whole it creates for water and electric types.
The specs variant is problematic, but I only see it on ladder and you can ppstall overheat with Suicune and protect.
Infernape :
Suicune looks the closest to a switch in to this thing. Play around life orb and punish his attempts to come in with seismic toss/forry’s earthquake. Expert belt and leftovers variants don’t hit as hard and can be played around with Zapdos and Suicune. Go Hippo on cb variants. I guess Nasty Plot is a 6-0 but I haven’t seen this set in a year+.
Jirachi :
4 Steel resists + Hippo makes physical and mixed Jirachi struggle to break, even with max hazards. Try to para it first before sending another member. Special variants get encored/earthquaked.
Kingdra :
Go suicune on Specs variants, Jirachi can PPstall and para it. Physical variants are weak and can be handeled by the healthiest member of the squad. Lvl 2 threat only because of rain.
Latias :
The only annoying thing about this mon is Trick which the team can’t absorb well. Clef + Jirachi tanks it all day, Hippo and Zapdos can take a specs draco from full. Kinda obvious but don’t midground Forretress into a specs variant.
Lucario :
The biggest threat to the team. While in theory Zapdos can handle it, the bird lacks Heat Wave and has usually been chipped by rocks, Gyarados etc. If Lucario comes on Clef/Jirachi, going for Encore/Body Slam is a reasonable option in the mid-late game. At 100% and rocks up, Hippo, Forry and Suicune (in that order) can go for the +2 close combat roll and check Lucario. The Ice Punch variant usually claims the game, thankfully it’s not that common.
Copycat Scarf Lucario + Hazards doesn’t really have counterplay; Just pray Jirachi gets switched in and Protect, then avoid using Roar if you can help it.
Ludicolo :
There is no real switch in to this thing. Stall rain turns and para it with Jirachi. Clefable takes less than 50% under rain if you managed to Knock it.
Machamp :
Pressure from Zapdos + Suicune prevents it from damaging really badly your team. Zapdos is the primary switch in, Hippo handles it okay and so does Jirachi.
Magnezone :
Get a sense for mag comps and earthquake with Forry on the switch. Once you revealed Earthquake, spike up carefully and be wary of double switches. If Jirachi has been trapped first then your Forry now outspeeds and kills it.
Mamoswine :
Hippo handles it. Suicune can check it, Forry can finish it. Not a problem.
Metagross :
You should have no problem with him at all, you can even wish pass against him. I usually go Forry to take the iron ball and spike/spin.
Roserade :
Toxic spikes isn’t too big of a problem, spikes is. Toss it down with clef, then be patient with Forry and go for Payback on the ghost.
Scizor :
Tough part is going to be paralyzing it without sustaining lots of damage. Then keep your Clef to counter a last mon setup attempt. LO sd is handeled by Zap+ Hippo depending on their matchup and current health. On CB, go Forry/Hippo so you can preserve Zapdos’ health.
Shaymin :
Clef handles it no problem. Beware of pursuit support/boom in the back because this thing is kind of annoying with rocks up if Clefable is down.
Snorlax :
Walled by the whole team. Curse variants gets roared out or encored, try to get 1 layer of spikes to pressure it. Against CB, go either Forry or Hippo/Jirachi, depending of the hazards on the field.
Staraptor:
Jirachi sits on it, Zapdos and Hippo can’t really switch into cb variants but can heal on it. Eventually it will die to residual damage.
Suicune :
Clef can handle it, but it usually died earlier to boom from Heatran. Jirachi can make its way through it. Once it’s paralyzed Crocune can set up on it and go for the game, provided no crit.
Swampert :
Hippowdon doesn’t stay on it very well. Suicune is 3HKOed with rocks but it can pressure earthquake pps. Forretress and lay down spikes. Eventually I will go on Zapdos and Toxic it. Poison >> Paralysis.
Rotom :
This team does not have a true Trick absorber. The special attack investment makes it difficult for Suicune to set up on this thing, so it is handled by a combination of Clefable, Jirachi and Hippowdon. Forretress loses the 1v1.
Rhyperior :
As long as Hippo is up you don’t have to worry about that thing. If it’s dead however, you have to Knock it with clef and somewhat answer it with Suicune.
Team Paste : Hopefully you haven’t skipped until now.
Togekiss :
Zapdos, Jirachi and Clef can handle it, Hippo can phaze it. Watch out for Substitute.
Tyranitar :
Hippo sits on it, Suicune can set up on it in the later stages on the game, Jirachi checks it. Scout for Fire Blast before sending Forry.
Weavile :
Jirachi heals on it, Clefable can somewhat stay on it and damage it with sand.
Zapdos :
Clefable walls life orb variants, while specs can be switched around. Hippowdon can somewhat sit on it.
Yanmega :
Clefable walls it, Jirachi can heal on it. Speed Boost variants give Zapdos a free Roost.
This team has remained consistent throughout the 2 months+ I used it on ladder. It has a nice matchup spread, securing wins against poorly built teams while handlig well the tournament worthy ones. I used it to help people for tests and it did fairly well there too. In the tournament environment, I think the current popularity of Lucario Spikes makes this team a bit weaker than on ladder, though it’s definitely worth bringing with proper information.
I usually don't bother saving replays. I might add more eventually. If you have good/high level replay with this team send it to me by pm so I can add it.
Stall:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1543652182-xv2absjv6sea81jbtehfscum1s0btebpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1534093187-20sp71f2aa9jfgk9mhs6b4znheppcj8pw
Magnezone balance:
(quick games because once mag dies I just win)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1542158372-nkohk1icgxierderw8fh29tek4mwr7dpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1537846448-taivke02zgb6zbu4dfaf016ahr62hsqpw
Mixgon spikes stacking:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1539378060-tx58f05yxjfig1e14y98gqdziqdppz2pw
Offense :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1543049802-330y499xvlmn7g60u93nyatscshntqwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1539452739-0qd0u71r0bzjla85ggmclcus8jna29cpw
Stall:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1543652182-xv2absjv6sea81jbtehfscum1s0btebpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1534093187-20sp71f2aa9jfgk9mhs6b4znheppcj8pw
Magnezone balance:
(quick games because once mag dies I just win)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1542158372-nkohk1icgxierderw8fh29tek4mwr7dpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1537846448-taivke02zgb6zbu4dfaf016ahr62hsqpw
Mixgon spikes stacking:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1539378060-tx58f05yxjfig1e14y98gqdziqdppz2pw
Offense :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1543049802-330y499xvlmn7g60u93nyatscshntqwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1539452739-0qd0u71r0bzjla85ggmclcus8jna29cpw
Closing words :
I planned to showcase this team once I was out of Seasonals, which just happened few hours ago.
Hopefully you enjoyed reading this and I wish you a good day !
I'm more of a grinder type of player so I don't have a long shoutouts list to make.
Thank you Johnnyg2 and Jonathan Madden for reviewing this rmt. This kind of work usually goes unnoticed yet it contributes greatly to the site's success.
Small wink to the French DPPers, old and new generation alike. They aren't afraid to share their knowledge and genuinely care about the tier, which has helped me make my first steps in the tournament scene. Specifically, I'd like to thank Marshall.Law, even tho I talked to you like 4 times. You often bring sick teams and you are my favorite player to watch !
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