Metagame 1v1 Old Gens

Hey! It's true that I'm old, but I'm not THAT old.

So it's not a shitpost: PL+WC Results and top 8 of dpp cup made it to list of voters. But, yeah, it's weird that the council didn't announce the suspect, nor handed out the qualifications for voters.
 

Jabiru

formerly ThatCabbageGuy
Yeah ok so this has been a bit scuffed, so just on behalf of council I'd like to apologise for there not being a clearer line of communication.

As people are no doubt aware by this point Machamp is being suspected in DPP 1v1 on the basis of it being uncompetitive, seeing as its already covered I won't get into it here but if you want to see reasonings for this, there's some discussion throughout this thread and further discussion in the 1v1 discord.

Voters were picked based on:
3 games played across PL/WC dpp
or a top 8 result in the ongoing dpp cup.

Additionally whilst I believe the suspect voting will technically conclude before the start of dpp cup finals, PA has indicated that the ban will be in effect for dpp cup finals.

If anyone wants any further clarifications, feel free to reach out to me and I will be more than happy to try find any information you need. :blobthumbsup:
 
How do you not lock the tier for playoffs or like at least for the first round depending on when the vote is done
 

PA

Waifu Status
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Hello fellow smogoners, the vote for the Machamp suspect has been decided and it will be decided that Machamp will be banned immediately. This will be implemented for the DPP Cup finals which should be up pretty soon.

BanDo Not BanAbstain
STABLEDj BreloominatiACII
PANeomonInkreativ
HCTCUrfgurgle187 Fan
CrucifyVrjiMr. Mime Fan
CloseEuphonosSoulwind
JabiruSynonimous
Jamez
Itchy
Zioziotrip
Trashuny
Gym Socks
Morgan
Elo Bandit
Yami

Other Miscellaneous stuff:

:bw/shaymin:

Shaymin will be looked at in full during the classic playoffs and will come to a census as soon as possible whether or not it should be suspected as well. Have a nice day!


Tagging Kris for implementation.
 
I've been trying to get into sm and oras lately, but the lack of new resources makes it hard to find sets that aren't outdated. For example, I was looking for Z-transform mew in sm and brick break zard x in oras but they aren't in their respective comps. Does anyone where I can find some of these sets? Having somewhere I can find sets would make me put off building a lot less.
 

Euphonos

hooooooo boy
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus

Dj Breloominati♬: I hate the duck (DPP 1v1 Cup V Finals, 2021)
The Significant Impact of Cresselia in the DPP 1v1 Landscape


Introduction

Since my participation in 1v1 Premier League V, I've been subtly hinting about putting Cresselia in a watchful eye in DPP, and it all rooted from this one replay. Who would've thought that Tyranitar, the singular most prominent Pokemon in the DPP 1v1 metagame, gets 2HKO'd by a Grass Knot before it can even 2HKO back; not to mention that Synonimous, who was the metagame leader that time, brushed it off because of the very flaw that kept this Pokemon in check: low damage output - so low it doesn't get the job done? However, with Togekiss and Machamp being banned, some of the relatively fast Pokemon with the likes of Raikou have fallen out of favor and consequently made the metagame geared towards balancing offensive and defensive capabilities.

I believe Cresselia's offensive capabilities has been extremely underestimated by many, and I mean many, even by some of the old players who mainly played this tier (I suspected Synonimous and 187 Fan are some of those who are adamant against banning Cresselia by virtue of its low damage output). However, given some of the would-be reliable Cresselia checks such as some Steel-types and the aforementioned Tyranitar gets deceived by a Specs Cresselia delivering massive damage to those said checks, I believe Cresselia is just one of those Pokemon worth suspecting at this point.

So, what's this Specs Cresselia set I'm talking about? While this set hasn't been posted in the compendium yet, allow me to introduce to you this Cresselia set that raises another bar as one of the top metagame contenders, and the very reason for my growing love for and paranoia against this Pokemon:

:dp/cresselia:
Euphonos Updated Specs (Cresselia) (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 152 HP / 76 Def / 208 SpA / 72 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe (if Fire) // 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD (if Ground)
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire / Ground]

This EV spread is adapted from Synonimous's, most notably the 152 HP / 72 SpD one which is meant to avoid an OHKO from a Blaze-boosted Blast Burn from Infernape coupled with a boost from a Petaya Berry. I initially put 248 SpA with a Modest Nature in order to secure a 2HKO from standard Chople Tyranitar (144 HP / 252 Def spreads), and it takes Tyranitar 240 HP / 176 SpD (the SpD Band spread) to miss the 2HKO from that same set. However, I lowered it to 208 Special Attack to still guarantee the chances of 2HKO'ing standard Chople Tyranitar with Grass Knot, and then I dumped the rest to Defense in order to take 5 Iron Heads from Jolly Scarf Rachi while having two chances of moving and KO'ing with Hidden Power Fire (or Ground).

Choice Band Metagross is definitely one of the greatest threats to this set as Cresselia doesn't run any Speed EV's. Metagross is capable of 2HKO'ing Cresselia with Meteor Mash before Cresselia would even 2HKO back. Leech Seed Shaymin actually gives Cresselia troubles as well: this is where one of the main flaws Cresselia inherently has. However, with Calm Mind Cresselia being one of the staple sets in DPP that Shaymin requires several Seed Flare drops in order to take Cresselia down, picking Shaymin on a Cresselia could probably be an uphill battle.



How Cresselia Fares Against Numerous Threats

Let's compare/contrast all of the Cresselia sets in the compendium:
(1) Euphonos Updated Specs
:dp/cresselia:
Cresselia (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 152 HP / 76 Def / 208 SpA / 72 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe (if Fire)
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD (if Ground)
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire / Ground]
2) Synonimous Specs
:dp/cresselia:
Cresselia @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 152 HP / 160 SpA / 68 SpD / 128 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk (if no Hidden Power)
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe (if Fire)
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD (if Ground)
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball / Signal Beam / Hidden Power
(3) Compendium Scarf
:dp/cresselia:
Cresselia @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 100 SpA / 144 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Moonlight / Rest
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
(4) Compendium Calm Mind
:dp/cresselia:
Cresselia @ Mail
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave / Reflect / Shadow Ball

Here are some of the Pokemon (and their sets) who can fare well against Cresselia, from the S- to the B- viability rankings. It may still not be finished at this moment, but you can see the rough gist here: Registeel, Blissey, and Weavile are hard answers to Cresselia regardless of the set; would-be answers such as Tyranitar requires 240 HP / 176 SpD (neutral SpD nature) to avoid a 2HKO from (1)'s Grass Knot, among all possible things you can think of to take down Cresselia reliably while still maintaining its solidity against other metagame threats. There are also niche answers present to deal with Cresselia, which include the following: Armaldo (Custap SD wins regardless of set), Articuno (Mail Stall wins regardless of set), and Spiritomb (must have Mail to win regardless of set; otherwise loses to Trick Scarf)

1637212974533.png

In the fifth iteration of DPP Cup and 1v1 Classic, Cresselia was brought sixteen times, and its presence alone provided thirteen of those wins. The most fun part here is: when Cresselia gets picked six times, it was guaranteed to win a match. Most notably, I used this very Specs Cresselia set on five separate occasions:

vs. Close: G3 of DPP 1v1 Cup Quarterfinal - though I won because his Metagross missed a Meteor Mash which is actually boosted by Choice Band
vs. Dj Breloominati♬: G5 of DPP 1v1 Cup Final
vs. XSTATIC COLD: G5 of 1v1 Classic Quarterfinal
vs. pqs: G5 of 1v1 Classic Semifinal
vs. Jamez: G3 of 1v1 Classic Final


Conclusion

Despite the low damage output most DPP 1v1 main players pointed out as a flaw, the potential to run multiple different sets and different coverage moves make Cresselia a restrictive force in team building, forcing builders to run adaptive ways (such as that said SpD Banded Tyranitar set) to deal with this Pokemon, not to mention its bulk makes it extremely hard to take down in one hit. These are why I am convinced, more than ever, that Cresselia deserves to be suspected in the DPP 1v1 metagame.

1637213735826.png
 

Dj Breloominati♬

in memory of the greatest to ever do it
is a Tiering Contributor
after losing to euph, and sorta helping him overlook his teams for other series', i was really surprised by how many teams cress just 3-0d (making it a really solid g5 pick in retrospect) and was thinking about making a post, but euph put it much more eloquently than i ever could. Showing support for the cress suspect.

i really hate the duck btw
 
Okay okay this is long overdue, I wrote most of this a month or two ago and so some of these hot takes may have already been taken, but I am nevertheless proud to present to you:
THE ADV RESOURCE MEGAPOST!!(very cool)​

VR shifts:

Rises:

:sceptile:Sceptile S- to S:
Between its standard sets of band, petaya, spdef leech, and defensive leech, sceptile has an amazing team preview, beating nearly every pokemon and only losing to like regice, armaldo, aerodactyl, arcanine, and scizor.

Regice and aerodactyl can also be lured and beaten by sceptile:
-Regice: https://pokepast.es/64dbdbcfad7fe733
-Aerodactyl: https://pokepast.es/5f7963bdafae94e4

This leaves sceptile only being hard-checked by band zapdos, some select bugs, and like salac endure Charizard. Chances are I missed something, but my point still holds. I really don't want to say that sceptile is the best pokemon in the tier, but every time I'm building I somehow just graduate towards it. The sceptile set I'm using 9 out of 10 times right now is spdef leech seed sceptile, it just beats so much stuff.

Sceptile sets if you're interested
^
L-- All sets live a regice ice beam while maximizing physical bulk, except spdef 3, which lives ice beam 87.5% of the time. This spread is used on spdef 3 since 108/184 and 40/252 take the same damage from ice beam. Spdef 1 outspeeds base 100s, spdef 2 outspeeds base 110s(tauros), spdef 3 outspeeds base 115s(raikou+starmie), and spdef 4 additionally lives a band ursaring return and band metagross meteor mash.

252+ SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Sceptile: 290-342 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 184 HP / 148 SpD Sceptile: 277-326 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 40 HP / 252 SpD Sceptile: 251-296 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 108 HP / 184 SpD Sceptile: 266-314 (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 20+ SpD Sceptile: 290-342 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Ursaring Return vs. 252 HP / 236 Def Sceptile: 290-342 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 236 Def Sceptile: 291-343 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


:alakazam: Alakazam A to A+:
Between calm mind encore, petaya, and trick band, alakazam can beat a surprising amount of pokemon, and should absolutely be respected as the metagame beast it is. I recently also found that alakazam can beat rain dancers like ludicolo or kingdra by substituting turn 1 and spamming it till rain ends, then 2HKO'ing after. I explained that badly here's a replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen31v1-1457841141-qmtbv7gyotrd6gaog2wqhfz7mz3ktsbpw.

:swampert: Swampert A- to A or A+:
Twelve, yes twelve pokemon on the adv setcomp have a set running hidden power grass, solely for swampert. It is of my current opinion that this pokemon's stranglehold on the meta is greater than nearly any other pokemon, and I often find myself needing run either ludicolo, a small selection of hp grass pokemon designed to beat swampert, or just accept that I get 3-0'd by swampert. Additionally, unlike other top tier adv pokemon swampert doesn't really need to pick between it's different sets to win certain matchups, as spdef curse swampert(the best set) already beats a majority of adv 1v1. In conclusion, blue pond rat is fun to use, not fun to battle, very good pokemon.

:blissey: Blissey A- to A:
After clefable was banned, the role of a tanky normal type opened up and blissey is the perfect fit. Blissey's large HP lets it beat leech+stoss stallers like sceptile and ludicolo, something that registeel can't do, and it's specially bulky enough to that it doesn't lose sleep over most zam sets, except for the rare trick band. counter, of course, lets it beat banders like tyranitar and aerodactyl, handedly living a band sky attack and non-adamant ttar's band dynamic punch.

252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 605-712 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery(easter egg lmao also setcomp band ttar runs jolly)

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 533-628 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 609-717 (85.2 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO(that 93% chance to live is all that matters)

:machamp: Machamp B+ to A- or A:
Best fighting type IMO rn, due to a few small things that combine to make it the ideal regi/blissey check. Firstly, guts and encore let this auto check dusclops with hp ghost, and encore guarantees it beating stall checks no matter what they try to pull, whereas medicham or heracross can be spooked by counters and iron defenses(from registeel), sometimes forcing them into 50/50 situations which are obviously never good to have.


:ludicolo: Ludicolo B to B+:
Between counter/stoss/leech + rain dance, this mon beats a lot of stuff, idk I just like it.


:armaldo: Armaldo B- to B+/A-:
My absolute go-to sceptile check, incredibly solid mon right now. Anybody running the ever popular fire water grass or rock grass fire cores are instantly 2-0'd by armaldo, as no fire or grass type Pokémon could feasibly prepare for armaldo. I truly and honestly believe that armaldo is a better Pokémon than regirock right now, and should be on the tip of everyone's tongue and builder.


:Scizor: Scizor C+ to B+:
I used scizor tons in rounds 1 and 2 of adv swiss, and for a good reason. It 3-0's a sample, beats the 3 fastest viable pokemon in the tier(alakazam, sceptile, and aerodactyl), and 3-0's some teams while 2-0ing a large majority. Between its 3 sets it has surprisingly few checks, often requiring quite a bit of thought or setguessing to beat. While building for adv swiss round 2, I told my partner to "just make scizor teams" and they won with little to no preparation, simply because his opponent wasn't prepared for scizor. Any given team's scizor checks are few and far between, giving scizor, in my opinion, one of the lowest opportunity costs in the builder right now. I'd say more people should be using scizor, but I don't want to lose.

:skarmory: Skarmory C to C+ or B-:
Super physically defensive pokemon that actually beats scizor(cough cough regirock), I haven't used it much but it should for sure be ranked higher than the C it's at right now.

:dodrio: Dodrio C+ to B-:
Basically the only viable normal flying type, and boy is it viable. Stab flail with 110 base attack makes this thing an absolute monster, and quick attack is a neat tech that ursaring/tauros/kecleon don't have the luxury of.

Drops:
:Registeel: Registeel S- to A+:
Aside from my personal dislike for the S- rank, a susceptibility to leech seed abusers like sceptile ludicolo and jumpluff, its inability to deal with pokemon able to boost like swords dance ursaring and curse swampert, and it losing to other stall picks like vaporeon and dusclops just make it much less threatening than I previously would've thought, and much more fitting of an A+ placement. Registeel is, often times, the second least or least threatening pokemon in an opponent's preview, a huge jump from the metagame beast it was once considered to be.

:tyranitar: Tyranitar A+ to A or A-:
I had a small epiphany recently realizing that tyranitar was just a slightly better regirock that traded matchups like band metagross for better things like beating registeel with taunt. While tyranitar's still a good pokemon, it's not as tanky as I thought(no spdef boost in sand yet), and has an unfortunate typing in a tier with many viable fighting/water types. A nasty 4x fighting weakness makes it liable to get OHKO'd by things like a band sceptile brick break, a band aerodactyl/zapdos hp fighting, or a houndoom reversal.(it needs a lot of bulk to live these hits but loses attacking power in the process and functions as a worse regirock in the process). Quirky adv things like taunt lasting 2 turns hurts and the elemental punches being special hurt tyranitar somewhat as well. As sad as I am to see tyranitar not perform so well, it gets a placement at the top of the dpp vr as a consolation prize at least.

:Salamence: Salamence A+ to A:
Salamence, while being one of the two viable dragon types in adv(kingdra's on the rise rn), is unfortunately left unable to utilise its dragon typing well due to dragon types being special in adv, forcing it to use the so amazing hp flying as its primary stab. Even as a dragon, it loses to sceptile, being teched with hp ice, swampert with its huge bulk, and like any pokemon with ice coverage? I honestly believe salamence's dragon type is its biggest weakness, giving it a nasty 4x ice weakness, just like ttar's crippling 4x fighting weakness. Salamence is never a safe pick what with zapdos, arcanine, houndoom, blaziken, and anything else easily running hp ice to lure it. Additionally, band zapdos is in my opinion the better band flyer, gaining guaranteed matchups vs alakazam and sceptile while not worrying about hp ice, and having a chance to even beat regice.

:heracross: Heracross A to A-:
Now WHILE this pokemon's won me a fair amount of games, and EVEN THOUGH its +1 reversal is one of the strongest moves out there, this pokemon still just ain't it for me. Firstly, it 50/50s registeel between close combat losing to counter spdef steel and sub reversal losing to iron defense rest. Unlike machamp, heracross for the most part can't beat dusclops, and (correct me if I'm wrong), just can't beat regirock consistently between curse and counter t1. Finally, being the only fighting type that doesn't resist rock out of the core 3(cham cross and champ) leaves it liable to losing to band rhydon with good enough rock blast rolls.

:blastoise: Blastoise B+ to B-:
Its whole niche was beating zapdos and it can't even do that reliably, I just never find myself using this when the far superior(imo) starmie is available.

:jumpluff: Jumpluff B- to C+:
For the most part, jumpluff(and all other leechers) is outclassed by sceptile, and I can't think of any matchups jumpluff gains with encore. I can however, think of matchups it loses with no access to seismic toss, inferior bulk, and a rock weakness. I have never once needed jumpluff in an adv team, and I don't think I ever will. Sorry bro.

:meganium: Meganium C to C- or UR:
I did some research?(if you can call it that) and it seems like meganium's niche is pretty much just 3-0'ing a sample team. Unfortunately, other pokemon can already do that, and beat other pokemon while they're at it.



Side note/Personal creations:
:rs/rhydon:Rhydon is awesome and everyone should use it.
https://pokepast.es/611cdcd567716c70
Its defensive bulk justifies using it over armaldo, and means it lives a band metagross meteor mash.(see calcs) Rhydon can also pour EVs in spdef to live an hp grass from and beat zapdos/charizard, with the caveat of losing to metagross. (https://pokepast.es/54368d322f5783d2)

Both sets together: https://pokepast.es/dd7388d796a1c951
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhydon: 353-416 (85.2 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Yeah, 6.3, have fun winning 1/16 of the time metagross.

252 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Grass vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Rhydon: 340-400 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All this being said, my suggestion for rhydon's place on the vr is C/C-, with its worth coming from its unique matchup spread and niche.


:rs/articuno:Articuno is funny but like also viable:
https://pokepast.es/50fff2479338f3ae

Defense lives 3 band ursaring returns. Speed speed-creeps 252 adamant ursaring, I'm so good at EV's lol. Articuno's niche is regice but with pressure, and beating heracross/ursaring. Plus it's quirky which is all that matters. Articuno to me has a lot of upward mobility from here, I barely used it, and didn't even consider its pressure ability/great movepool(articuno gets stuff like haze, toxic, agility, and sleep talk, with some creativity it could have some really interesting sets imo). I'd say to put it in like C- tier with the knowledge that it can rise in the future.

To finish off the post, I'm gonna share some less viable, sort of memey teams I have:
-:articuno: :raikou: :sceptile: https://pokepast.es/5c258044711b7468 (bolt/beam pressure stall lmao; I thought of using articuno/raikou as a joke in round 1 of adv swiss but realized articuno 3-0'd one of my opponent's teams while building for round 4, so I just did articuno/raikou. Sceptile rounds out matchups, it was also just 3-0 fish for one of their teams. Y'all can probably just remove sceptile and put another set there, articuno/raikou is the centerpiece anyways.)
-:gengar: :registeel: :starmie:https://pokepast.es/59cfae7e2451fb1b (first team I ever built for adv swiss, I started out trying to build with gengar cause at the time it was my partner(doc1203)'s favorite mon. Curse gengar is really fun, it 3-0's the brokens sample team and beats a lot of top tier stuff. Looking back, I don't really like gengar as much as I did before, cause it just loses to stuff faster than it, and can get teched easily with an hp ghost. Registeel was a natural partner since it resists psychic/dark/ghost and gengar is immune to fighting/ground and beats stall, it all works out. Starmie rounds out matchups and does funny timid starmie stuff, overall solid team but not one I'd use for any more tours.)


What's next:
Adv is still such a volatile and uneqplored metagame right now that there's still so much to look forward too. Since adv swiss, Hungry Foodies(the goat) has come back to 1v1, LRXC has stated they're planning to update adv in December, and I still don't have a sample on the list which just makes me more motivated to work on this gen. Adv has come so far since its humble beginnings, due in no small part to LRXC and adv's cult-like fanbase, and with so much to look forward to(new brokens being discovered, pushing to get adv into pl, and sceptile or zapdos suspects in my opinion on the horizon), I have so much to look forward to in this tier and so should you. Thank you for reading my post, and please, I implore you, try out adv 1v1 if you have not yet.
 
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Honestly speaking of of Zapdos, imo it should get suspected at least, it’s the hardest hitting special attackers in the game, +1 petaya kills everything, the things that are supposed to beats it (besides Raikou) can’t even beat it reliably, the agility set is on the rise which can make Zapdos outspeed everything, metal sound is also busted for shit like Blissey and Dusclops can which without it, can wall it easily.
 
Salamence A+ to A:

Salamence, while being one of the two viable dragon types in adv(kingdra's on the rise rn), is unfortunately left unable to utilise its dragon typing well due to dragon types being special in adv, forcing it to use the so amazing hp flying as its primary stab. Even as a dragon, it loses to sceptile, being teched with hp ice, swampert with its huge bulk, and like any pokemon with ice coverage? I honestly believe salamence's dragon type is its biggest weakness, giving it a nasty 4x ice weakness, just like ttar's crippling 4x fighting weakness. Salamence is never a safe pick what with zapdos, arcanine, houndoom, blaziken, and anything else easily running hp ice to lure it. Additionally, band zapdos is in my opinion the better band flyer, gaining guaranteed matchups vs alakazam and sceptile while not worrying about hp ice, and having a chance to even beat regice.
I think that salamence still deserves A+ rank b/c of its versatility and many different sets. Being teched with hp ice isn't the biggest problem b/c mence is able to bulk hp ice from most mons and kill back with a dd boosted move. Between dd, band, and petaya you are able to beat a lot of mons, with the only hard counters for mence being like blissey and regice. It's also worth noting that cb zap doesn't actually beat barrier zam(lol lol), and regice rolls aren't great either(only beats the 252 252 regice lol lol)

252+ Atk Choice Band Zapdos Hidden Power Fighting vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Regice: 175-206 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252+ SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 108 HP / 252 SpD Salamence: 302-356 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Alakazam Ice Punch vs. 108 HP / 252 SpD Salamence: 312-368 (87.3 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Honestly speaking of of Zapdos, imo it should get suspected at least, it’s the hardest hitting special attackers in the game, +1 petaya kills everything, the things that are supposed to beats it (besides Raikou) can’t even beat it reliably, the agility set is on the rise which can make Zapdos outspeed everything, metal sound is also busted for shit like Blissey and Dusclops can which without it, can wall it easily.
imo this feels a lot like zyg in current ss, but zap has a decent amount of hard counters. You can obviously run regice and armaldo, but taunt dd ttar is also pretty reliable(if you ev for hp fighting that is also why is the current dd ttar so goddamn slow).Sets like band zapdos give up matchups vs mons like mence, zard(lol current cb zap is also super slow), ursaring(petaya usually beats it lol!), marowak(lol) etc. Petaya zapdos sets give up certain matchups like regirock and registeel(pressure stall zap loses asw unless rest i think but petaya zapdos ultra loses this matchup)Overall I think zapdos has enough hard counters and the opportunity cost for running something like band zapdos is very high.(i feel like cm ibeam blissey still beats zapdos cuz of amazing spdef lol)
+1 252+ SpA Zapdos Thunder vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regirock: 313-369 (86.2 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Regirock Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 389-458 (121.1 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now for a nom of my own

Moltres from B- to B

I talked about a specific moltres set in here, but now I will discuss moltres as a whole. Imo moltres is pretty underrated, mostly for the reason that it is overshadowed in offensive capability by zard. However, moltres is able to run pressure stall sets, and utilize agility to more consistently beat threats like zapdos and leech scept(zard has to 50/50 spdef sceptile, either sub on your own expecting a sub on their end, or just blast burn t1 on a possible leech seed). Moltres feels like a more versatile zard, with pressure stall allowing you to beat cb regirock(lol), and petaya berry having great odds against zam, ursaring, registeel if you are running sunny day(goat move) and marowak. Also why is moltres in the same tier as jumpluff that mon sucks lol.
 
Phenomenal post by Adam3560 , legit makes me so happy to see thoughtful posts on my favorite metagame, and I love discussing this gem of a tier :') I will try to respond to most everything here! I haven't taken a full step back from the metagame post ADV Duo Swiss, RoA, and Classic, but will give my instinctual thoughts for now, perhaps my views change once I do some more exploring sometime soon!

Rises:
:sceptile:Sceptile S- to S:
Between its standard sets of band, petaya, spdef leech, and defensive leech, sceptile has an amazing team preview, beating nearly every pokemon and only losing to like regice, armaldo, aerodactyl, arcanine, and scizor.
I honestly might be in agreement with this, when I was tryhard prepping for RoA and ADV Cup, I kept finding myself making new sceptiles sets bulked for different things and at different speeds etc. Its such a flexible mon, mainly all of its seeds variants. The one thing I really love about Sceptile currently is that when you DO decide to bulk for certain mons like a weaker Houndoom or Regice, you sacrifice the matchups vs hard physical attackers which I actually enjoy. Factor in what speed you run and you can start to lose to things like Starmie which I think is totally fair and awesome.

That max defense counter set you posted is also neat, it def beats more than just Aerodactyl as you will for sure lure a Venusaur clicking Sludge Bomb t1, and can even get some crucial rolls vs 252+ band Metagross! 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sceptile: 312-368 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

:alakazam: Alakazam A to A+:
Between calm mind encore, petaya, and trick band, alakazam can beat a surprising amount of pokemon, and should absolutely be respected as the metagame beast it is. I recently also found that alakazam can beat rain dancers like ludicolo or kingdra by substituting turn 1 and spamming it till rain ends, then 2HKO'ing after. I explained that badly here's a replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen31v1-1457841141-qmtbv7gyotrd6gaog2wqhfz7mz3ktsbpw.
Not sure exactly where I stand on Alakazam, but it is pretty damn great. I would be interested to test the rain matchups further because theoretically the offensive rain mons like colo and kingdra dont HAVE to rain dance t1, and or could sub themselves while you fail a sub. Would like to test that matchup further.

:swampert: Swampert A- to A or A+:
I believe that Swampert in theory could rise that high, but I don't think we have seen people flex its versatility and potential movesets enough for it to be anything above A-, especially because it will forever be weak to those hidden power grasses. And, spdef curse and spdef band are great, but I'd love to see Curse+Counter even or a max speed band swampert or the sub endeavor set tried out, salac even, mirror coat for a blastoise clicking surf t1, who knows!

:blissey: Blissey A- to A:
After clefable was banned, the role of a tanky normal type opened up and blissey is the perfect fit. Blissey's large HP lets it beat leech+stoss stallers like sceptile and ludicolo, something that registeel can't do, and it's specially bulky enough to that it doesn't lose sleep over most zam sets, except for the rare trick band. counter, of course, lets it beat banders like tyranitar and aerodactyl, handedly living a band sky attack and non-adamant ttar's band dynamic punch.
I could see a rise this high, Blissey is amazing. The more techy and opened the metagame becomes, the more solid something like an all around special answer like Blissey becomes. max defense counter is a threat as well, could totally lure regirock. (with a roll) 252+ Atk Choice Band Regirock Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 651-766 (91.1 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO. Ngl I didn't realize you could eat anything from a band tauros with max defense! Thats cool af


:armaldo: Armaldo B- to B+/A-:
My absolute go-to sceptile check, incredibly solid mon right now. Anybody running the ever popular fire water grass or rock grass fire cores are instantly 2-0'd by armaldo, as no fire or grass type Pokémon could feasibly prepare for armaldo.
Armaldo is definitely on the rise with sceptile and zapdos's prevalance. As zapdos cannot dodge the rock blast on sub, but rock blasts accuracy is quite annoying. Two things I'll add are Armaldo having Battle Armor is amazing because it adds to its solidness as a sceptile answer, no leaf blade crits, and one thing is Armaldo definitely struggles vs some Arcanine sets because of intimidate, and surely could lose to Blaziken with unfortunate rock blast rolls or bulk up into rock blast or a sub petaya/leichi on a band EQ. Seems like a pretty interesting and dynamic matchup on preview!

:Scizor: Scizor C+ to B+:
bro idk about that high LOL. I will say that I think Scizor will rise, it has great stats and a great typing. If you aren't a fire type in ADV you probably aren't running fire coverage as its pretty rare! I did appreciate that ur team in duo swiss utilized scizor well

:Salamence: Salamence A+ to A:
Salamence, while being one of the two viable dragon types in adv(kingdra's on the rise rn), is unfortunately left unable to utilise its dragon typing well due to dragon types being special in adv, forcing it to use the so amazing hp flying as its primary stab. Even as a dragon, it loses to sceptile, being teched with hp ice, swampert with its huge bulk, and like any pokemon with ice coverage? I honestly believe salamence's dragon type is its biggest weakness, giving it a nasty 4x ice weakness, just like ttar's crippling 4x fighting weakness. Salamence is never a safe pick what with zapdos, arcanine, houndoom, blaziken, and anything else easily running hp ice to lure it. Additionally, band zapdos is in my opinion the better band flyer, gaining guaranteed matchups vs alakazam and sceptile while not worrying about hp ice, and having a chance to even beat regice.
I am a Salamence defender, but sometimes I also doubt its place in A+. I will say that, a set people still forget about and underutilize is Sub DD 2 attacks. This allows you to beat those Sub petaya mons with hp ice because as they try to sub again, you can just Sub and now you are the faster mon behind a sub. I can see mence dropping to A, but I need to see more reasons for it to drop, perhaps a lot more games with mence in it! Also sorry but IMO band zapdos being the better band flyer is a ridiculous take. Ttar can still bulk for that hp fighting, and has to hard dedicate to bulk for a brick break from mence, and mence has a much more powerful flying attack with its base attack stat, Intimidate, Earthquake, etc.

:blastoise: Blastoise B+ to B-:
Yeah the differences between the sub petaya waters like Starmie/Blastoise/Kingdra is interesting. I think Blastoises matchup spread is still too solid for it to go all the way down to B-, but I can 100% see a B ranking. I think what stoise has going for it is that it has the most defined path to the most powerful water attack, as kingdra and starmie don't have torrent. Furthermore, because of Blastoise's not so solid matchup vs Zapdos (Petaya), I think we can see stoises starting to run more speed so its not as creepable on its standard set.

:meganium: Meganium C to C- or UR:
I did some research?(if you can call it that) and it seems like meganium's niche is pretty much just 3-0'ing a sample team. Unfortunately, other pokemon can already do that, and beat other pokemon while they're at it.
Nah Meganium def isn't UR. Meganium is def this weird middle ground of grass types, like Celebi/Sceptile/Venusaur. Having some qualities of all of them. Its main selling point is Counter, which yes Sceptile has but Meganium is leagues bulkier. Meganium also has Overgrow, and a very powerful Frenzy Plant just like Venusaur, however its bulkier and isn't weak to Psychic. Little things like that. And then with all of that, you can still run a most likely solid sub protect leech set for opponets expecting something fancy from Meganium. Bottom line I can see the drop to C- but no way its UR.

:rs/articuno:Articuno is funny but like also viable:
https://pokepast.es/50fff2479338f3ae

Defense lives 3 band ursaring returns. Speed speed-creeps 252 adamant ursaring, I'm so good at EV's lol. Articuno's niche is regice but with pressure, and beating heracross/ursaring. Plus it's quirky which is all that matters. Articuno to me has a lot of upward mobility from here, I barely used it, and didn't even consider its pressure ability/great movepool(articuno gets stuff like haze, toxic, agility, and sleep talk, with some creativity it could have some really interesting sets imo). I'd say to put it in like C- tier with the knowledge that it can rise in the future.
This is some really cool stuff, I love seeing totally new mons and the ideas people have with them that aren't me. I would also love to see people try out Articuno more, honestly I might just try and make a team with it soon!

=============

Again great post and I hope I replied aptly to some of your thoughts! Even if I didn't do a ton of research or anything. I love ADV 1v1 and want people to keep discussing it and pushing my conceptions about the tier 8)

Samples, VR, speed tiers, AND SETS COMP,will all be updated at least before 2022, but I feel no rush and want to let people keep giving their thoughts about the metagame instead of it being what I think is correct and THEN having people discuss. ADV 1v1 is sick wooo
 
Honestly speaking of of Zapdos, imo it should get suspected at least, it’s the hardest hitting special attackers in the game, +1 petaya kills everything, the things that are supposed to beats it (besides Raikou) can’t even beat it reliably, the agility set is on the rise which can make Zapdos outspeed everything, metal sound is also busted for shit like Blissey and Dusclops can which without it, can wall it easily.
Currently, I think Zapdos is fine as it wasn't seemingly busted in Duo Swiss, RoA, ADV Cup, Classic Playoffs, but I do feel your sentiment about its impact on the metagame. I think Band is still ultra slept on, and we are starting to see Metal Sound put in a lot of work as its such a unique move in ADV. Nothing else notably can give itself a +2 difference in ADV, as Nasty Plot doesn't exist and lol Tail Glow Volbeat. I've also seen that Agility set being used, what exactly is it supposed to beat again? It seems really threatening and annoying, id love to see its matchups.

I think deddd made some great points regarding its opportunity cost, where yeah Zapdos can't have all of its moves at once, and once you only run thunderbolt as the attacking move, you insta struggle vs ground types, grass types, etc. I might make a gigantic Zapdos post at some point researching its matchups amongst its interesting and relatively unexplored sets like the Agility one, Sub Toxic, Sub Rest, etc! But would LOVE to see someone else take a super fucking deep dive into the world of Zapdos in ADV 1v1.

Now for a nom of my own

Moltres from B- to B

I talked about a specific moltres set in here, but now I will discuss moltres as a whole. Imo moltres is pretty underrated, mostly for the reason that it is overshadowed in offensive capability by zard. However, moltres is able to run pressure stall sets, and utilize agility to more consistently beat threats like zapdos and leech scept(zard has to 50/50 spdef sceptile, either sub on your own expecting a sub on their end, or just blast burn t1 on a possible leech seed). Moltres feels like a more versatile zard, with pressure stall allowing you to beat cb regirock(lol), and petaya berry having great odds against zam, ursaring, registeel if you are running sunny day(goat move) and marowak. Also why is moltres in the same tier as jumpluff that mon sucks lol.
I am in awe at your love for Moltres and the pursuit of developing it when I once thought it was just worse Charizard/Entei/any other fire type. And I will say, Moltres is pretty damn hype the more I look at ur post and look into the mon myself. Its instant pressure with a base 125 attack stat as opposed to 109 from zard is intense, especially when running modest. I dont even have that much to add for Moltres you explained a lot really well with replays. That petaya set is cool af with Agility, and there is still a lot to test with sub protect morning sun pressure stall! I'm with you in that it doesn't belong in B-. Super cool stuff with lots of EV potential.

Also funny thing we tested CB Rollout Regirock vs Pressure stall Moltres and Moltres needs two misses behind a sub or a single miss + double protect to win the matchup!
 

Jabiru

formerly ThatCabbageGuy
Ok this is probably going to be a pretty long post so please bare with me but I wanted to give my thoughts on the current state of DPP and form some sort of response to Euph's post on the state of Cresselia.

First I want to talk about the state of DPP as a whole and then subsequently how Cresselia fits into that. I believe (and I think its fairly well accepted in general) that there is this sort of trio or triumvirate or whatever you want to call it of top pokemon in the tier, namely: Cresselia, Shaymin and Tyranitar. We are seeing a lot of these three pokemon and the meta is warping so that only pokemon which perform particularly well into these major threats are seeing huge amounts of play and I would argue its detrimental to the diversity of the metagame. All three have individually seen calls for their bans at various points: Shaymin was getting a lot of attention shortly after Togekiss ban, Tyranitar has seen a lot of criticism especially from the like of Fan and Ink, and Cresselia has been receiving that attention in particular of late. I do think there is some merit to all those conversations but its in particular their interaction that I take issue with.

Of these three threats the first I would like to touch on is Cresselia, in a sort of reply to what Euph has already said in his post. I think Euph somewhat overstated the strength of Cresselia in the metagame, in large part by basing the strength of Cresselia into a metagame that hadn't appropriately adjusted for a threatening mon. In general I believe it is perfectly acceptable for a metagame to have to shift somewhat to accommodate a new threat and find ways to play around it, and I think in large part those developments are just starting to happen for the likes of Specs Cress. Scarf Tyranitar which was for a long time, Tyranitar's pre-eminent set remains a strong counter to all Cresselia variants run at the moment, something like spd band Ttar doesn't sacrifice an awful lot to be able to beat the specs set. Then there is the likes of Weavile and Registeel, both of which Euph mentioned in his post as particularly good answers to Cress (ignoring Blissey because I still believe that mon is terribad). I think its harsh to list Armaldo as a niche answer to it, it is a mon that definitely holds a place in the metagame. However crucially I think there are a few mons that were wholly overlooked; Clefable is one of the best Cresselia answers in the game right now and has gained a lot in viability following Togekiss' ban. Similarly the notable encore/disable users in Gallade are very strong checks. Then you've got the likes of stall Slaking, which should be favoured against most all Cresselia sets or Scizor which only loses to a very specific specs HP fire set. Even beyond that, item slots on a lot of top mons can work to give you some advantage; Infernape can be adjusted to beat various different Cresselia sets as needed, payapa being something I've run a lot historically on Infernape can easily be adjusted to deal with specs and calm mind variants, similarly the like of Shaymin or Kingdra can run mail sets to give themselves much better odds vs Cresselia (Raikou can make use of this option as well but suffers a much greater opportunity cost). There's also probably opportunity for pokemon I havent explored to function as decent Cresselia checks, maybe things like Suicune/Celebi can find ways to deal with it reliably.

As to the numbers Euphonos provided, whilst they do paint a picture of Cresselia as being a particularly strong mon, I do have some slights with how he presented them.
Cresselia was brought sixteen times, and its presence alone provided thirteen of those wins. The most fun part here is: when Cresselia gets picked six times, it was guaranteed to win a match. Most notably, I used this very Specs Cresselia set on five separate occasions:


vs. Close: G3 of DPP 1v1 Cup Quarterfinal - though I won because his Metagross missed a Meteor Mash which is actually boosted by Choice Band

vs. Dj Breloominati♬: G5 of DPP 1v1 Cup Final

vs. XSTATIC COLD: G5 of 1v1 Classic Quarterfinal

vs. pqs: G5 of 1v1 Classic Semifinal

vs. Jamez: G3 of 1v1 Classic Final
Primarily I take issue with the wording and subsequent implication that bringing Cresselia on a team was sufficient to provide those 13 wins, which is such an extreme oversimplification that I don't think it really adds to the argument but even taking it at its best and saying that it indicates an overwhelming strength at team preview, I still somewhat disagree. Earlier in this piece, I outlined 9 fairly reliable answers to all the various Cresselia sets, so the topic becomes a matter of whether said checks perform well into the rest of the meta/how well Cresselia can pair with mons to force an absurd amount of 1-2's or unfavourable matchups on preview which is a lot more detailed and nuanced coversation which I'd like to touch on a bit later. Similarly the fact that Cresselia won all 6 games where it was brought, whilst an impressive stat, is a bit misleading considering that five out of those six games was one specific set (particularly relevant is that this set is its latest advent, and to some extent I don't think the meta has as yet adapted to it at this point and particularly not earlier on in DPP cup) brought by one specific user (againt relevant because Euphonos is a top dpp player with a decent record in team tours (8/6 W/L, 57%), and the eventual winner of dpp cup) so it becomes an issue trying to separate the potency of Cresselia from the skill of the player.

The final two points in a discussion of whether Cresselia is broken then have to be whether the aforementioned counters are viable enough in and of themselves to not hamstring their users elsewhere and if not whether individual checks to Cresselia's sets are common enough to the point where the opportunity cost of running any specific Cresselia set is enough to keep it in check within the metagame. Looking at the list of counters covered earlier, Tyranitar obviously sticks out as one of the defining pokemon in the metagame and has for a long time been one of if not the most used pokemon in each and every tournament where dpp 1v1 has featured. Registeel and Slaking are consistently strong mons in 1v1, being rated A and A- in the most recent viability rankings respectively. Scizor was only rated B+ but is growing in popularity/relevance as a result of how well it performs into that aforementioned trio of Shaymin, Tyranitar and Cresselia, similarly Clefable was rated at only B- but this was with the caveat of Togekiss existing in the metagame which largely outclassed it and following Togekiss' ban it is seeing a resurgance. Weavile, Gallade, Alakazam, Armaldo were ranked at B+, B, B- and C+ respectively (and Blissey at B- if we want to include that). An argument definitely exists that this isn't sufficient but to my mind, alongside the various checks to specific Cresselia sets, I don't think at present Cresselia meets the threshold for being considered broken.

Now to move onto Tyranitar, another somewhat contested mon in dpp 1v1. Chople counter is probably the most common set at the moment, but things like scarf, chople dragon dance and even band aren't uncommon. There are some niche options beyond this, such as other weakness berries or custap, but they are noticeably less common. In the same vein as Cresselia if we wish to look for reliably answers to all of these sets we have a number of options (note that these are only down as far as B-, so all of these pokemon are relevant metagame threats) such as Shaymin, Infernape (Please just use mach punch on your Infernapes, I swear its good), Specs Celebi, Band Metagross, Band Rhyperior, Band Slaking, Hariyama, Heracross, Sceptile, Scizor, Tangrowth, Gallade, Band Hippo, Venusaur. That's one counter from the aforementioned trio (Shaymin), another five from the A range, and another eight from the B range. Also note these are only the particularly reliable answers and things like Swampert, or other sets of these pokemon are often still favoured even if they arent necessarily as reliable.

This set of answers is almost definitely stronger than the list constructed for Cresselia, there is less variance in the matchups of its different sets and whilst that means there is less opportunity cost for switching between them, there is also less overall metagame coverage. Without going into huge detail on all the matchups it definitely feels as though a singular Tyranitar set probably covers more of the metagame than a singular Cresselia set, and again it noticeably loses to a huge metagame threat in Shaymin. Once again, on the whole, I don't think that Tyranitar can be considered broken within the dpp 1v1 metagame.

Shaymin is a mon which frankly just has an absurd number of options. SubSeed handles a huge amount of the metagame leaving the item slot free to use as needed for any particular team, with lefties, salac, mail, and even occa all being viable options or it can run more offensive sets using specs, occa, or scarf. With so many options, it becomes incredibly difficult to find reliable answers to all of these sets. Even pokemon that appear as fairly reliable answers can struggle, Infernape (a fire type which outspeeds Shaymin) has completely different counterplay based on what Shaymin set it finds itself facing (e.g. Blast burning t1 is a great way to lose to Occa, but is likely your only option vs scarf, or you can run endure salac to make your scarf matchup a bit nicer but then drop to specs Shaymin clicking earth power turn 1). Even the likes of Specs Arcanine, Entei or Shuca Heatran can find themselves outsped, and 2hko'd or leech stalled by occa variants. If you want actual reliability you're restricted to a very short list of options in Scizor, Weavile, Scarf Staraptor, Venusaur, Gengar (And Registeel but dpp crits exist). Gallade, Alakazam, Infernape can beat Shaymin but typically have to predict set. Then the likes of the various fires/ scarf Cress, Sceptile, Zapdos do have typically favourable matchups but fall to some variants.

As to whether this limitation is enough to consider Shaymin broken, I'd have to say I'm on the fence but the recent performance of Shaymin in dpp cup does tend to indicate it is somewhat manageable and that there is likely a large amount of opportunity cost between sets. (In dpp cup, Shaymin was brought 15 times, picked only thrice and failed to win a single game) To some extent I do believe these results are a somewhat direct result of conversation about Shaymin's place in the tier leading into DPP cup and people subsequently overpreparing for it, but the fact that that worked to this extent is probably evidence in and of itself that Shaymin can be managed.

No-one disagrees that Cresselia is a very strong force in the metagame right now but it does have its limitations, a big one being that it has a poor matchup into the most used mon in DPP 1v1, now theoretically if that mon (Tyranitar) didn't exist Cresselia would be an even more potent threat in the metagame.

Similarly its fairly well agreed that Tyranitar is one of the top threats in dpp 1v1, but the fact that its hard countered by one of the best mons in the tier (Shaymin) is a limiting factor for it. Now theoretically if Shaymin didn't exist, Tyranitar would be a much stronger mon and the argument for banning it would be much stronger.

Finally Shaymin, in my opinion the strongest of the three, but it is somewhat limited in so far as it has to seriously consider the likes of Mail almost exclusively for scarf Cresselia and struggles a lot vs CM Cresselia. In a metagame where it didn't have to worry about those weak matchups to an incredibly potent pokemon, it itself would be an even more potent threat.

So to at least some extent, these three defining forces of dpp 1v1 are kept in check by each other. The balance and interactions between them make or break the tier, however if all three of them are borderline broken even with their little game of paper, scissors, rock game between them, can their presence within the tier, on the whole, be a positive or at the very least not be a net negative.
Ultimately what I am alluding to here, is that whilst I don't believe that any of these three pokemon are broken in and of themselves within dpp 1v1, I think they are and I think the interaction between them within the current state of the metagame is inherently unhealthy. I know this is going to be a controversial opinion, even raising the idea of suspect action as the result of unhealthy elements is typically controversial, but I do sincerely believe this is the best, if not the only, path forward for DPP 1v1. So long as all three exist within the current metagame, I think we are going to see cycles of people preparing heavily for one or two of them and the others rising up to the point of being oppressive. Similarly I think we are seeing a lack of diversity within teambuilding because it is becoming exceptionally difficult to deal with these mons without resorting to tried and tested archetypes, there is somewhat limited crossover in their checks and putting together answers to all three of these pokemon without leaving large holes elsewhere isn't easy. DPP 1v1 is not in a good state, these three pokemon are too centralizing and I believe most people would agree, regardless of their thoughts on any specific pokemon, that some action has to be taken in an attempt to return the tier to such a state.

Now obviously there are multiple ways to proceed, the first option is to look at unbanning pokemon to add more pokemon at the same power level as this trio but I don't believe this option is viable in this case as the obvious cases for unbans are the pokemon that have been banned from the tier over the past few years because they were incredibly oppressive in their own right, similarly I don't expect the likes of Manaphy or Latias to be particularly manageable threats.
To my mind the better option is to look at bans, the obvious solution in this case is to ban all three pokemon, though I do think there is potential for Tyranitar to be left in the tier even after Cresselia, Shaymin bans. Tyranitar has more consistency in its matchups and whilst the meta would almost definitely centralise around it somewhat, the existance of a good number of reliable counters would, at least in my opinion, prevent it from becoming too oppressive if the concerns around other huge threats didn't exist. However it would definitely be a pokemon to keep a strong eye on.

To that end I would propose a suspect of both Cresselia and Shaymin, and I would advocate for voting to remove both of them from the tier. At which point I expect we may be able to see some adaptation from various pokemon to deal with Tyranitar but if it turns out to be too powerful for a tier lacking Shaymin, it could in turn be suspected and potentially banned.

Shaymin, Tyranitar, Cresselia are incredibly strong and warp the meta to an unhealthy degree. Whilst none of them are, to my mind, broken in their own right, I think their existence is unhealthy for the tier and for that reason I believe we should look at banning both Cresselia and Shaymin then keep a very close eye on Tyranitar as the meta adjusts to such big changes.
 
brief multi gen post

:bw/mew:
back again to talk about another bw mon because thats how this tier works since the kyub resuspect, but recently in bw mew has became quite an oppresive force in the meta. between its main sets of scarf, stall, specs, band, and gem (yep 5 main sets) reliable counterplay to mew is quite lacking:
:genesect: occa wins vs scarf fire move but loses to band/specs fire move and scarf gene wins vs band/specs but loses to scarf fire move
:volcarona: loses to scarf rock move
:cresselia: scarf wins vs scarf but loses to mail and specs with shadow ball
:thundurus: weird mu but thundurus wins vs stall and special mew sets but loses to the physical ones. toxic thundurus generally doesn't win though because synchronize
:sableye: wins always unless unset
:tyranitar: can get countered
:scrafty: can get countered
:porygon-z: wins most of the time unless its amne
:heatran: is gonna win most of the time regardless of set
:chandelure: gonna win
:slaking: is gonna win unless speed tie vs stall
:arcanine: can get countered if its band but special is gonna win unless calm mind
:hydreigon: loses to max speed band unless haban which is bad, scarf hydreigon loses to scarf
and thats all the mons through B, so as you can see theres mons that beat it reliably beat it but almost all of them have a * next to them that makes there still a doubt that ur gonna win vs it in the builder and on preview. the unfortunate thing as well is non of the 5 sets mentioned and options like counter have been seen in tours so these aren't even made up theoretical sets for it. another important thing to note is that on preview it is a fucking mew so unless its an obvious lure like two mons that lose to volcarona and a scarf mew with rock slide you aren't gonna be able to tell what set it is vs someone thats competent at building, which isn't many people in 2021 but still cmon.

:bw/jirachi:
ill address this thing because im here, some people would love to see this banned and i myself would not mind seeing it go, but arguments to ban it aren't very strong. its not broken, and its not completely uncompetitive because it still has decent enough reliable matchups to not make its place in the metagame completely uncompetitive. its honestly underwhelming, but i will concede that its value lies in clicking it and praying rng goes in your favor so it does have that uncompetitive aspect and its lure sets can be quite good because its hard to tell its set on preview though not to the extent of mew. i will also say if mew goes i think that the argument that this mon should go becomes way stronger and it probably should, because mew is a big part (at least to me) in holding jirachi back being quite reliable vs it

:bw/sableye:
kinda cancerous but its too unreliable with 75% wisp and getting crit. has a fine place beating all the psychics but not gonna touch it for now

BW tl;dr unban victini and all of these issues go away mew has too many sets that are all used making it super restricting in the builder and unreasonably hard if not impossible to set guess on preview, making it broken. the argument to ban jirachi is weak imo but has merit, and jirachi should probably go if mew goes. sableye not getting touched, but something needs to be done before pl about mew at least because this current meta should not be the meta in pl

:dp/cresselia:
since i'm here and a member of dpp council i'll briefly talk about this, Jabiru's post above mine is quite good in talking about the dynamic of the tier right now, and I agree for the most part. what i'll add is that, shocking the world, dpp is not in a good place right now, and i think the course of action is to either ban cresselia or do nothing and just accept the tier for what it is, because in continuing down this path i dont think the metagame will be in a better place after it but alas thats not what we worry about pepehands. anyway going down this path cresselia is definitely the mon to ban, just watch games from classic and consider its multiple sets when teambuilding and you'll see. shaymin was talked about before classic quite a bit but in classic was honestly quite underwhelming, but who knows how much of that is cresselias influence. i will also say i would vehemently oppose a tyranitar ban for sure even if shaymin ends up getting banned

tl;dr ban cress or do nothing and accept the tier for what it is, but banning cress and then seeing what happens is my preferred option

also nice ADV post Adam3560 but run Never-Melt-Ice on Regice and own Sceptiles, leftovers isn't required :blobthumbsup: , we'll update ADV stuff when LRXC feels like it :mike:
 

PA

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Suspect 1.3 - Duck Duck Goose.

DPP 1v1 is suspecting Cresselia!

:bw/cresselia: :bw/cresselia:
Hey,

Cresselia is being suspected tested for its near unrivaled 120/120/130 mixed bulk which in conjunction with the myriad of tools at its disposal turns Cresselia into an almost unbreakable wall/breaker. Despite its low damage output, Choice Specs has proved to be extremely prevalent in countering would-be answers like Tyranitar barring Choice Scarf sets and Scizor. While Choice Specs sets are incredibly powerful following the departure of Togekiss, the fact that the metagame has prepared for only mono-attacking Cresselia is what has made Cresselia seem mediocre, when it is a far more lethal Pokemon. Other sets such as Choice Scarf and stall variants are also useful in handling the likes of Aerodactyl, Kingdra, and Raikou. The tier has undoubtedly become very restrictive with the big three: Cresselia, Tyranitar, and Shaymin impacting the tier, and the council will be looking at these 3 in close detail within the following weeks.

TL:DR. Arguments in favor of a Cresselia ban:
  • The sheer amount of match-ups Choice Specs Cresselia covers makes it extremely strong and easy to use on every team, making it a very splashable mon with extremely little opportunity cost.
  • Other sets such as Choice Scarf and stall variants are equally as strong covering threats that Specs cannot such as Aerodactyl, Kingdra, and Raikou.
  • The over-centralization of having Shaymin, Tyranitar, and Cresselia in the same metagame, with all of them requiring very diverse Pokemon to beat them, restricts teambuilding to specific Pokemon combinations.
Arguments against a Cresselia ban:
  • Cresselia, while having very little counters, the counters it does have remain equally as effective in dealing with it.
  • The popularity of Cresselia galvanizes creativity and thinking out of the box, allowing new sets and Pokemon to be born as a result.
Will the Duck finally be caught out? Stay tuned.
 

zioziotrip

everything is funny in retrospect
is a Tiering Contributor
what is the start and reqs for suspect

also to give quite brief thoughts on said suspect I think cress is mostly a builder nuisance because between scarf/specs/stall you only really have spdef cb tar, registeel/bronzong, and niche ghosts+darks for covering every set. While I don’t think setguessing cress is the hardest thing in the world it is def a builder annoyance. I’m not sure why this suspect is taking place before shaymin which is banworthy on the same grounds (arguably being even more of a nuisance) but w/e, hopefully min is on the way
 
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Concerning BW, I mostly agree with Crucify.

:mew:
As mentioned by Crucify's matchup chart, Mew can literally tech almost every Pokemon in the metagame which makes it a pain in both the teambuilder and on team preview. A competent builder can hide its set pretty easily, well, it can also be hidden coincidentally since sometimes you can just run a random coverage move to favor your matchup against a Pokemon.

:Jirachi:
I'm one of the people that are pro Jirachi ban, and banning Mew would further affirm my opinion, BW has too much broken Psychics wew. I already talked about it before but rng plays a huge part to what makes Jirachi broken as it can with Choice Scarf flinch past some checks making them unreliable, and with its typing and stats it can easily live a hit giving it a chance if it doesn't flinch. Furthermore, it also has a bunch of sets like Twave Iron Head for more rng that was used in Classic finals to beat a metagross and with Balloon it forces the opponent in using a non ground move. There's also Choice Specs Rachi or CM sets that can also be hidden to beat usual counters like Sableye.

:Sableye:
I don't think this thing is near broken. It's alright and relies on Wisp to beat physical attackers which has a pretty sad accuracy in BW. It's also a fodder to strong special attackers that are kinda popular in the metagame like Volcarona, Keldeo, Zapdos, Thundurus it could probably tech them in the future but for now it's alright, and a good Pokemon to shutdown most Psychic, and Stall mons thanks to Prankster Taunt.

tl;dr I'd ban Mew and Rachi but keep Sableye.
 
So I think that despite having numerous strengths, Gen 4 Cresselia is a pokemon with many big issues that shouldn’t be banned, at least with the current philosophy we have on gen 4 now.

My main issue with this suspect is how people see 1 new Cresselia set and are currently overreacting. Gen 4 is definitely a slow moving generation, especially compared to something like Gen 5 that has bans and trends all the time. So once you see Cresselia beating Tyranitar, and this set threatening teams, what gen 4 players should be doing is adapting. Adapting to this set is ridiculously easy with Tyranitar. There’s many ways to do it. The rise of this specs Cresselia set may make defensive chople Tyranitar less common and that’s fine. A poke adapted, now you adapt back and from here I don’t see a way Cresselia can consistently win if many Tyranitars start adapting, especially in different ways. It’s understood by many gen 4 players that Tyranitar keeps many things in the tier in check, and this is no different.

There’s also other ways to beat Cresselia. Here’s a Heatran set I quickly made in the 1v1pl that completely shuts down Cresselia.
Heatran @ Mail
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 36 Spe or more, just outspeed CM Cress
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Overheat
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power

Many Steel and Ghost-types (pokes that are not Tyranitar) can do the same with different sets. Something like Metagross spamming meteor mash and specs rotom spamming shadow ball will almost always inevitably lead to a win. Other pokes can make similar sets with mail and moves to make sure CM Cress will not win.

And that leads to another issue of Cresselia. Bulkier stall sets that use Calm Mind need a lot of RNG to go their way. Crits are quite common and very punishing in Gen 4. Rest Cresselia is a sitting duck for turn after turn, and unlike a poke like Mega Slowbro in later generations, Gen 4 Cresselia is very much crit fodder, especially while sleeping. And moonlight just loses to something like Toxic. One more flaw of Cresselia is that Trick in gen 4 is kind of trash. You get locked into trick if you trick against another choiced poke. This means Scarf Cresselia is very unreliable vs pokes with multiple sets, which is a lot of the tier. Zapdos, Shaymin, Raikou, Aerodactyl, and others. Trick also just loses to the very common mail.
Here was one of my last Gen 4 games, where Cresselia loses to one of many chances to get haxed: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen41v1-1424347937-hds9dzieq1992xe17ckunvawjcq6v04pw

Also, I am not sure we will enjoy a metagame without Cresselia. Things like Zapdos, Raikou, and Dragonite may get really, really good, and possibly better than Cresselia is right now considering Cress' numerous flaws.

Overall I think people need to not get too impressed with Specs Cress. I believe the meta can easily adapt to this new set. In general, Cress needs too much to go its way when it comes to sets and RNG to be a broken poke that should be banned. It reminds me of Sableye in Gen 5, but just a bit better, and I do not support the ban of either.

Arguments against a Cresselia ban:
  • Cresselia, while having very little counters, the counters it does have remain equally as effective in dealing with it.
  • The popularity of Cresselia galvanizes creativity and thinking out of the box, allowing new sets and Pokemon to be born as a result.
Can you put better sample arguments in this? The first point makes no sense at all and the second is an argument nobody is and should be using.

Onto Gen 5

I do not really care about Mew. It's more of a theoretical threat and I do not think its versatility has been shown off enough in tournaments, from what I have seen at least.

Jirachi is not only uncompetitive because of the large amount of matchups where you only need a few flinches to win, but it also has a set or two that not only does not need flinches, but beats a lot of Scarf's counterplay (Specs). Specs also has hax potential with Serene Grace Flash Cannon, Psychic, Shadow Ball & Thunderbolt vs slower stuff. The best counterplay to Jirachi is Fire-types, and that part reminds me of SwSh Genesect. People seem to think that Electric-types are really good vs Jirachi, but that's just not true.

I think Jirachi and Mew both are not as good in practice as on paper, but maybe I am just speaking for myself. Despite this, I support a Jirachi and Mew ban if that is what it takes to improve the tier. I also think unbanning Victini is a possibility. Maybe we survey the Gen 5 players and ask if they prefer the Victini metagame? A poll could see if people would want Victini metagame, current metagame, or one with bans. I never really played Victini meta besides some test games, so I would not really know.
 

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