★ 1v1 Suspect #4 - Girl With No Face - Ogerpon-H

[Itchy]

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Following recent Discord discussion, both in the public #meta-discussion and in the council channel, 1v1 Council held a vote on Ogerpon-H with 3 options: Quickban and retest, Suspect, Do nothing.

Votes

	clerica	deg	bo	drip	delemon	litt11
Ogerpon-Hearthflame	suspect	qb-> resus	nothing	qb->resus	nothing	suspect

It ended with a 3-way tie, but deg and drip said they were also fine with a normal suspect

The 1v1 council has voted to suspect Ogerpon-Hearthflame with 4/6 members in support. This thread is for discussing Ogerpon-H and nothing else.

-ban argument-
based on comments from DripLegend
Ogerpon-H is an extremely good partner for all top Fairy-types, limiting the amount of other viable cores significantly. Ogerpon-H is also very flexible; it hits extremely hard even without investment due to the mask boost and can afford to invest in bulk to surprise some answers with Leech Seed and Counter. Speed control in Rock Tomb and Trailblaze, as well as Encore, can be quite limiting in game. To hit Ogerpon-H super-effectively, you often have to rely on inaccurate attacks such as Gunk Shot, Stone Edge, Head Smash, or Hurricane, which are very unreliable against Substitute variants. Overall, it's just miles better than any other Grass-type or Fairy answer and creates a stale, overcentralized metagame.

-dnb argument-
written by clerica
The argument for not banning Ogerpon-H is that it may be quite versatile but it has its limits, and it by no means unbeatable. It does not have room to fit every tool it needs in a single set, and it has solid answers such as Diancie, Skeledirge, Iron Moth, and Arcanine-H. It also struggles vs many of the dragons in the tier such as Regidrago, Dragapult, Baxcalibur, and Garchomp. It is by no means unbeatable. While it has a lot of usage, it is arguable that this is caused by Hearthflame simply being a fantastic glue mon, similar to Sylveon and Walking Wake in pre home SV 1v1, and not because Ogerpon-H itself is broken. Usage alone is not necessarily enough for a mon to be banworthy if it has consistent and diverse counters. Sometimes a mon can just be a healthy glue in a meta that suits it well, and in a fairy infested metagame, Ogerpon-H may just be that.


For this suspect test, we will be using the regular 1v1 ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with 1Hearth to qualify. Ogerpon-Hearthflame will be legal on the ladder. The deadline for the suspect is Thursday, November 30th, 11:59 PM GMT-6 so that the voting can end before the 1v1 WC pools stage ends.

This suspect shall be reusing the sliding scale system from the prior suspects, being:

Minimum Games Needed

GXE	Minimum Games
73.5	50
73.8	49
74.1	48
74.4	47
74.7	46
75.0	45
75.3	44
75.6	43
75.9	42
76.2	41
76.5	40
76.8	39
77.1	38
77.4	37
77.7	36
78	35

The way this works is that the minimum game requirement is reduced by 1 game for every 0.3 GXE you have above 73.5 GXE, down to a minimum of 35 games with a GXE of 78 or above, with the absolute minimum GXE requirement being 73.5%, with at least 50 games played.

As always the normal rules of suspect tests apply. You must use a fresh account registered after the posting of this thread for your reqs. This alt must begin with 1Hearth, ex: 1Hearth itchy. Disallowed behaviors include things like boosting other accounts, attempting to vote with multiple accounts, intentionally losing against suspect participants, coercing an opponent to lose, playing games in a voice call, sharing accounts, and trading/buying/stealing/selling/giving away suspect ladder accounts. Cheating will not be tolerated and anyone caught cheating will be disqualified and potentially infracted.

Additionally, we will be implementing a procedure used by other tiers where suspect reqs will be verified by the 1v1 Tier Leaders or forum moderators. With this in mind:

• DO NOT LOAD UP MORE GAMES AFTER GETTING REQS UNTIL YOU HAVE BEEN VERIFIED!
• Once verified, your post will be edited with you being notified of the verification.
• If you load up more games before being verified and end up losing your qualifying GXE, your post will be deleted and you will have to qualify again.

If you have achieved the voting requirements, CLICK HERE

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one liners or uninformed posts
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process
3. Be respectful

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them. Good luck and have fun!

Tagging Kris to implement the suspect plz and ty

 

[DripLegend]

wc usage

all of my points are p much in the OP already so don't feel like stating most. look at the amount of usage we've seen so far in world cup and it's only been around 2 weeks as i'm writing this. this mon's been brought 91 times???? not surprising when it has 1. insane matchup spread and set variety 2. unintuitive building against it 3. poor overall consistency in its counters.

I've been seeing the argument of "well if this thing leaves then it's going to be wellspring next" which is fundamentally not correct. Wellspring has a worse typing for the tier, and the matchups it has can have a lot more contention because of it. for example, grasses would usually hard wall leech sets run by hearthflame but ivy cudgel smokes pretty much all of them, while on the other hand wellspring has no real counterplay into opposing grasses. not to mention the fact that hearthflame by default can usually win vs most if not all of the fairies currently present in the tier. this mon has made building this meta so atrocious lately in my eyes, and is promoting the staleness we've been see as of late. if anyone wants me to talk more about it somewhere else i would love to just don't feel the need to rehash everything here.

 

[Lucario]

Hi,

Hearthflame is not a broken mon, you just like a boring core, gg goodbye.

But seriously, Hearthflame is the definition of healthy and promotes better teambuilding. You might be asking, "how does it promote better teambuilding?" To that I respond with this: Hearthflame throws a thorn in the side of those that spam Fairies while also punishing Fairy-type threats like Volcanion, Corviknight, and Magnezone. Hearthflame's existence in the tier is similar to that of Landorus-T in previous generations of OU. It is a very good mon, but is not broken, nor is it unhealthy.

Sure, you might be tired of Dragon/Fairy/Hearthflame, but banning the fire mask just gets rid of a great Pokemon that beats other great Pokemon; banning it means more Fairies.

 

[bo_bobson27]

some basic mu analysis
Hearthflame Answers

Dragons

Poisons

Flyers

Other Stuff

If you do not run one of these pokemon you are going to have a bad matchup into hearthflame because it is very ambiguous on preview. Which brings me to my next point.
Across all sets Hearthflame covers ~72% of pokemon C+ and above, 70% of pokemon B and above, and 73% of pokemon A- and above. Any individual set covers 40% - 50%.
This means on preview, hearthflame is likely going to 2-1 your team. This is because most counters to hearthflame do not synergize well with one another. On top of this, if you do bring 2 hearthflame answers, you are likely going to be weak to one of the other pokemon on the opposing team. In effect, not bringing hearthflame is a competitive disadvantage (the usage stats support this), and that is a sign of a broken pokemon.

 

[AlyssaVGC]

some basic mu analysis
Hearthflame Answers

Dragons

Poisons

Flyers

Other Stuff

If you do not run one of these pokemon you are going to have a bad matchup into hearthflame because it is very ambiguous on preview. Which brings me to my next point.
Across all sets Hearthflame covers ~72% of pokemon C+ and above, 70% of pokemon B and above, and 73% of pokemon A- and above. Any individual set covers 40% - 50%.
This means on preview, hearthflame is likely going to 2-1 your team. This is because most counters to hearthflame do not synergize well with one another. On top of this, if you do bring 2 hearthflame answers, you are likely going to be weak to one of the other pokemon on the opposing team. In effect, not bringing hearthflame is a competitive disadvantage (the usage stats support this), and that is a sign of a broken pokemon.

heartflame can also just like beat some of these like haxorus and a lot of these could lose if hearthflame ever went adamant like diancie, Bax also has to 50/50 between clicking an attack and clicking sd vs counter while also 100% losing if its choiced

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs. 144 HP / 252+ Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 285-336 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Diancie: 282-332 (93 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Outrage vs. 144 HP / 252+ Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 282-333 (83.6 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[RTM]

Hi,

Hearthflame is not a broken mon, you just like a boring core, gg goodbye.

But seriously, Hearthflame is the definition of healthy and promotes better teambuilding. You might be asking, "how does it promote better teambuilding?" To that I respond with this: Hearthflame throws a thorn in the side of those that spam Fairies while also punishing Fairy-type threats like Volcanion, Corviknight, and Magnezone. Hearthflame's existence in the tier is similar to that of Landorus-T in previous generations of OU. It is a very good mon, but is not broken, nor is it unhealthy.

Sure, you might be tired of Dragon/Fairy/Hearthflame, but banning the fire mask just gets rid of a great Pokemon that beats other great Pokemon; banning it means more Fairies.

Ok subby mc sub face.

I'll start with saying I have no idea if ur baiting or not, if you want to deflect and say u are later wp.

"banning the fire mask just gets rid of a great Pokemon that beats other great Pokemon; banning it means more Fairies."
No, fairies are being run besides it because they A. Beat regidrago. B. Steels are shit C. Benefit greatly off what it defeats

"But seriously, Hearthflame is the definition of healthy and promotes better teambuilding"
Breh, you are looking at fairy spam as inherently bad, however, a mon having over twice the usage of the next highest mon is healthy.

Unhealthy: "elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent."

Idk man ig it doesn't exactly fit the definition of unhealthy as it's fairly broken (see bo_bobson27's post), however, it's no stretch to say it inhibits skillful play as it decreases creative expression and skill expression in building. This is due to teams having to fit a certain mold as to not have 3 1-2s against oger fairy :c . You're right in the sense that if both players use oger-h, the better player will win most of the time, however that kinda causes the argument to collapse on itself.

If its so good why is it's winrate bad? Oras zardx syndrome / Preview pressure.

Lmk if u want personal insults edited in on discord.gg

 

[fake tom numbers]

heartflame can also just like beat some of these like haxorus and a lot of these could lose if hearthflame ever went adamant like diancie, Bax also has to 50/50 between clicking an attack and clicking sd vs counter while also 100% losing if its choiced

/dt scale shot

Anyways imo people are just lazy and are constantly reusing teams from pl, and oger is just super easy to slap on a team and beats most fairies. The only reason why it isn't broken is due to 4mss and using different ev spreads sacrifice a lot of mus, and these other sets are super inconsistent as well. Not to mention that it's super predictable on preview and is always subseed offensive or that fraud counter set. And most of the time oger can just lose to random mons like lando i goodrah stall azu etc, which is also why no one was using it on ladder (or maybe I just got really lucky getting reqs idk)

I honestly don't care if oger gets banned or not since dlc is coming in a month with pz and meta, so if u wc tryhards wanna change the meta halfway during the tour then that's fine with me

also classic semis in an hour BE THERE

 

[DripLegend]

/dt scale shot

/dt rock tomb, which is fairly free to run at this point for the ogerpon mirror/volcarona/scarf volcanion

Anyways imo people are just lazy and are constantly reusing teams from pl

PL was over summer with no dlc meta, which would be pretty impossible to perform well while doing this. even then mons with upward trends have remained good like cress, valiant, ursaluna, fairies, etc. so seeing familiar looking previews makes sense (you can use the same mons with different sets to still account for new threats for the most part). oger also doesnt lose to stall azu since it has mold breaker, encore, and high crit rate ivy cudgel it's insanely not an answer to it. goodrah also loses to mold breaker since you can just leech stall through sap sipper. it also isn't very predictable since it has a lot of flexibility in terms of moveslots or evs. vote whatever you want it's fine but just putting out misinformation shouldn't be something you should base claims around/promote when it's pretty easily solved by looking at it's ability and learnset in the builder. also calling people lazy is pretty unrelated to anything and just makes people want to take u less seriously if ur insulting them (just for future reference :]). good luck in classic tho

 

[Itchy]

The suspect ended with Ogerpon-H remaining legal, ty everyone for participating