Announcement 1v1 Suspect - One More Time (Kyurem-Black)

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Cautiously Optimistic
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LC Co-Leader


The first Pokemon that we are suspecting as an Unofficial Metagame is Kyurem-Black. At first, his may seem like an odd choice for a suspect. However, there is good reason for it. Last year, after suspects were performed for both Kyurem-Black and Jirachi, the council decided to vote upon and subsequently ban these two Pokemon, despite neither being banned in their original suspects. This choice was frowned upon by many in the community, and so as the new 1v1 leader, I'd like to make amends by hosting a suspect for both Pokemon. I decided to suspect Kyurem-Black first because it's the less controversial of the two (in my opinion, anyway).

Since its introduction in Black & White 2, Kyurem-Black has been a dominant force in the metagame. The introduction of Z-Crystals gave it a one-time 200 Base Power Physical Subzero Slammer, which is devastating against nearly anything that cannot resist it. It also has Teravolt, a Mold Breaker clone that allows it to rip through the likes of Donphan and Dragonite. It can also choose to use Scarf, Specs, Band, Type resist berries, and other items. It's truly one of the most versatile Pokemon we have.

With all of Kyurem-Black's advantages come some weaknesses as well. At 95 Base Speed if not wearing a Choice Scarf it has to be wary of naturally faster Pokemon that will attempt to score quick KOs. Choice Scarf sets will have to deal with the various Steel and Fairy-types seen on most teams, especially the seemingly omnipresent Magearna. There are some other strong sets which can take it out, too, but I'll let you guys experiment with that yourselves. ;)

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 73 with at least 100 games played. For this suspect test, we will be using the regular 1v1 ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with 1VKB to qualify. Kyurem-Black will be legal on the ladder. The suspect will end on March 3rd, 11:59 PM EST. Kyurem-Black will require a vote of 60% Unban to remain legal after the suspect.

GXE ≥ 73
Battle count ≥ 100

You must use a fresh account registered after the posting of this thread for your reqs. This alt must begin with 1VKB, e.g. 1VKB Quote

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one liners or uninformed posts
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process
3. Be respectful

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them. Have fun!
 
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Oh boy, this sure is exciting. I joined the meta when KyuB was already banned, so if we get an unban, that'll surely shake things up in the ladder. I can try to ladder but I can't guarantee solid results. If I do manage to get reqs, then I may vote to unban with all these Dragonites flying around and being a major force in the meta. It'll be great to see a new check other than Haxorus or Gyarados.
 
Okay, WHAT? Kyub is being unbanned? Quote, I do not think you realize what you are doing. Yes, nobody liked kyuban. But that wasn’t because it was a kyub ban, it was because of the council saying “fuck you and the voting rights you rode in on.” Also, if kyub is unbanned, for ANY period of time, so should everything that was banned after it. You know why? Kyub was a major counter to all of them! Mimikyu could beat some of the slow sets, yes, but got shit on by scarf. Lax could sometimes beat scarf but not any slow sets. Koko just sort of laid down and died unless you ran fairium, a shitty set, and even THEN you didn’t beat scarf. It’s the whole domino effect thingy. That’s kinda how bans have worked in 1v1. Also, dnite is not a kyub counter. People give it the benefit of the doubt in hindsight, but this thing was hell to fight. It warped the vr to the degree that Terrakion was considered good just because it beat kyub and zards! Terrakion! And if the kyub player was determined enough and had wayyy too much time on their hands, they could beat everything! S/o to mace for that one. Yes, I realize that as the new tl you’re trying to go back and reverse unpopular decisions, and I commend you for it, but this is not the place to start in my opinion.
 

UnleashOurPassion

Permanently tired
is a Battle Simulator Driver
Hello everyone, happy suspect testing!
I can imagine many of the newer players are not at all familiar with the Kyurem-Black metagame, so here's a bunch of sets to help you out. If you want something else, there's much more out there like a specific Golem, Ferrothorn, Metagross, Aegislash and the Anti-KyuB Volcarona set I can't find right now..

Code:
Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 192 HP / 104 Def / 212 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Pain Split
- Fleur Cannon
Magearna is a really good mon in general and pretty much a surefire counter to Kyurem-Black. Click the button and it's gone!

Code:
Terrakion @ Rockium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 228 Atk / 48 Def / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
Terrakion is not only a pretty much guaranteed KyuB counter, it also beats both Charizard formes and Porygon-Z 100% of the time, making it a very versatile pick

Code:
Hitmonlee (M) @ Normal Gem
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Substitute
- Reversal
- Poison Jab
Fake out -> Sub -> Sub -> Sub -> Sub -> Click the victory button

Code:
Celesteela @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Flash Cannon
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain
Credits to PS user Jorijn for this concept. Fun set with good general coverage

Code:
Keldeo @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 116 SpA / 20 SpD / 40 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Calm Mind / Surf
- Icy Wind
Credit to Uselesscrab and lost heros for the Keldeo set. This probably beats both zards and KyuB so that's a nice bonus. If you want to know what the set does ask UC though.

Code:
Durant @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 24 HP / 232 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor / Thunder Fang
- Superpower
One of my favorite 1v1 pokemon, sheer power is great, accuracy is overrated, consistency is boring.


But what if you want to use KyuB yourself but don't know what set to use? I've got you covered!

Code:
Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 140 Def / 44 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Freeze Shock
- Substitute
Def is for Jolly Band Kartana Smart Strike (and pretty much everything else you could ever need to tank), SpD is for Modest Porygon-Z

Code:
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 216 Atk / 192 SpD / 100 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Iron Head
- Outrage
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
SpD is once again for Porygon-Z, speed is for Naganadel

Why am I labelling these things UOP, I make all my KyuB sets myself
Code:
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Iron Head
- Ice Beam
Bulky Band EVd to take opposing outrage and then proceed to destroy the opponent

Code:
Kyurem-Black @ Haban Berry
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 148 HP / 12 Atk / 252 SpD / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Beam
- Outrage
- Substitute
- Fusion Bolt
Guaranteed fun! SpD is for Blast burn so if you play smart you beat both Charizard formes as well as every Dragon type ever. Pair with Shedinja to scare away KyuB counters for guaranteed fun.

Code:
Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 148 HP / 12 Atk / 252 SpD / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Freeze Shock
- Outrage
- Substitute
- Fusion Bolt
EVs stolen from Haban, Specially Defensive Icium to beat things like Lele and Fini more effectively.

Code:
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam / Blizzard
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power
Element of surprise is a strong element


Edit: I found the Volcarona set I mentioned
Code:
Volcarona @ Buginium Z  
Ability: Swarm  
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 Spe  
Timid Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Quiver Dance  
- Overheat  
- Bug Buzz  
- Substitute
I don't recall how it works

Edit 2: The Volc was wrong, should be right now
 
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lost heros

Meme Master
Okay, WHAT? Kyub is being unbanned? Quote, I do not think you realize what you are doing. Yes, nobody liked kyuban. But that wasn’t because it was a kyub ban, it was because of the council saying “fuck you and the voting rights you rode in on.”
No one liked the KyuB ban because the suspect resulted in a DNB. So really KyuB should never have been banned at all. This isn’t Z-detect tomfoolery where people were upset that the council decided things by itself, but rather because the council ignored the community.

Also, if kyub is unbanned, for ANY period of time, so should everything that was banned after it. You know why? Kyub was a major counter to all of them! Mimikyu could beat some of the slow sets, yes, but got shit on by scarf. Lax could sometimes beat scarf but not any slow sets. Koko just sort of laid down and died unless you ran fairium, a shitty set, and even THEN you didn’t beat scarf.
What a weird argument to make.

This suspect is to evaluate KyuB in the current metagame against the current Pokémon. Bringing up now-banned Pokémon from when KyuB was legal that KyuB beat is at best irrelevant and at worst counter-intuitive to your argument. If the strongest Pokémon that KyuB beat are no longer around, doesn’t that mean in the current metagame that KyuB’s position is worse?

You have It’s the whole domino effect thingy. That’s kinda how bans have worked in 1v1.
That’s a super bad way to think about bans. This makes 1v1 slowly devolve into the worst of the worst. And if the community has had that mindset, re-evaluating every decision they’ve made is a good idea.
Also, dnite is not a kyub counter.
I’m fairly positive everyone is arguing the opposite, that KyuB counters Dragonite

People give it the benefit of the doubt in hindsight, but this thing was hell to fight. It warped the vr to the degree that Terrakion was considered good just because it beat kyub and zards! Terrakion!
A legendary Pokémon with a good offensive typing, high speed and attack, and an above average movepool? Truly crazy to think this Pokémon would be good.

And if the kyub player was determined enough and had wayyy too much time on their hands, they could beat everything!
Read: If the KyuB player was so determined they could purposefully make their KyuB a vastly worse version of another Pokémon to beat way less Pokémon once.
 
No one liked the KyuB ban because the suspect resulted in a DNB. So really KyuB should never have been banned at all. This isn’t Z-detect tomfoolery where people were upset that the council decided things by itself, but rather because the council ignored the community.


What a weird argument to make.

This suspect is to evaluate KyuB in the current metagame against the current Pokémon. Bringing up now-banned Pokémon from when KyuB was legal that KyuB beat is at best irrelevant and at worst counter-intuitive to your argument. If the strongest Pokémon that KyuB beat are no longer around, doesn’t that mean in the current metagame that KyuB’s position is worse?


That’s a super bad way to think about bans. This makes 1v1 slowly devolve into the worst of the worst. And if the community has had that mindset, re-evaluating every decision they’ve made is a good idea.

I’m fairly positive everyone is arguing the opposite, that KyuB counters Dragonite


A legendary Pokémon with a good offensive typing, high speed and attack, and an above average movepool? Truly crazy to think this Pokémon would be good.


Read: If the KyuB player was so determined they could purposefully make their KyuB a vastly worse version of another Pokémon to beat way less Pokémon once.
yep, you are exactly right. My post was a hysterical, rude, nigh on factless excuse for an argument. I apologize to quote and everyone else.
 
Everyone that knows me, well have read my opinion for the past year, knows that I'm Anti Kyurem-Black ban, in fact, Kyurem-Black was a good Pokemon but never crossed the broken line. Well, I still am, my opinion hasn't changed when looking back at the old metagame, but in this meta? right now? Kyurem-Black shouldn't come back to 1v1. No, it's really not Groundium-Z or Electrium-Z that made me change my mind, in fact, both are sets that shouldn't be used to justify a ban but to solidify a point.

In today's meta, there's nothing, bar some Steel-, Fairy-, and Fighting-type that checks Kyurem-Black, and these Pokemon are niche Pokemon that aren't run on mainstream team or the thing you regularly build with, this refers to UOP 4 to 5 checks. This in no way means the metagame is adapting but that clearly shows that Kyurem-Black is overcentralizing which justify the usage of niche Pokemon to counter it. Well, there's more like Mega Metagross and Mega Mawile that are mainstream sets. Looking at the checks or counters given, Steel-types just falls to Groundium-Z, while, other Pokemon can be taken out easily but Kyurem-Black teammates.
There's a difference between taking out, say, Metagross weakness with a Pokemon duo and Kyurem-Black. First of all, Metagross has way more weakness than Kyurem-Black which means the range that the teammates cover is wide, meanwhile Kyurem-Black's counters are limited to a few which means its teammates have an easier time to check. If you can name me a list of Pokemon that can check Kyurem-Black that ARE NOT NICHE, I'm going to give this to you.

The unban of Kyurem-Black has definitely lowered the level of both, bulky offense creep, and power creep and we banned after that Tapu Koko, Mimikyu, and Snorlax. If Kyurem-Black gets unbanned, the power and bulk level of offensive Pokemon will definitely raise to attain its old heights which will see people demanding suspecting Uber Pokemon that meets this creep level such as Zekrom, Reshiram and more. It's not stuck in a movepool syndrome like in OU due the usage of Icium-Z Freeze Shock. This will create an unnecessarily butterfly effect which will see no clear and easy answers.

All I want to say is that Kyurem-Black suspect is, in fact, justice, it's the right thing but at the wrong time. Three weeks before PL where USUM is a major metagame, couple of years after the introduction of SM, and more importantly after all the bans we've issued, unbanning Kyurem-Black right now, seems like a game over, and will force us to go back to step one.
 
WOOOTTT!!! KB'S BACK!!!!!!!

This post is just my 2 cents to rub together about this test, not an in-depth discussion about my feelings on Kyurem (this post will probably be later).

I'm really glad this suspect test is happening, like most of you are aware. Like many people, I felt that this ban was unfair, and I'm glad to see that we have another shot at seeing if this monster is truly broken or not. It will also be interesting to see how KB will perform in the current metagame without Mimi, Lax, & Koko, since these 'mons did a pretty good job of beating Kyurem. Because of this, I may change my current opinion of NO BAN to ban if I see this guy as overpowering as others think.
 

UnleashOurPassion

Permanently tired
is a Battle Simulator Driver
Hello friendly 1v1 player people things. You may have noticed that I've been having a really good time in this suspect test, and I want to share with you my thoughts on it, as well as some thoughts on 1v1 as a whole. Most of this I figured out about 2 months ago when thinking about why I didn't ladder much anymore, and part of it I thought up while playing in this Kyurem-Black ladder meta. Note: I'm currently kinda neutral about this whole thing, which is nice because it means I can make a (mostly) neutral post.

The suspect in my eyes comes down to what you want for 1v1. Don't worry this isn't some vague statement! I'm giving you 2 options
- You want a more centralized meta
- You want a less centralized meta

UOP what are you talking about
Centralization is a term that has been thrown around a lot in the past 2 years of 1v1, and is always portrayed as something evil, but in my absence from 1v1 I've realized that it's not necessarily evil. Centralization can be good, as can decentralization. Both can also be bad, it's up to what you want.
A decentralized metagame brings more variety, the emphasis in this meta is on surprise, which is also what will bring you the furthest because of the large quantities of just-barely-not-good-enough pokemon. You can't beat them all so you gotta outwtf Yes, outwtf is a word now them.
A centralized meta on the other hand emphasizes preparation. In a centralized metagame teams are more predictable and thus easier to counter, giving you more room to be a good teambuilder and work towards a team that beats a larger portion of the relevant metagame. This doesn't mean you don't get a chance to be creative however, centralized metagames is also where highly efficient niche sets like Stunfisk manage to blossom.


You're wondering: Why hasn't he mentioned KyuB? Honestly... Because KyuB doesn't matter to me, I think what's important is what Kyurem-Black does to the metagame and not what it does on its own. Sure it's powerful and borderline broken, but it has its counters and has the potential to be balanced in a centralized meta. On the other side, sure it has counters, but maybe not enough, and that makes it centralize the meta too much and means it should be banned. You're going to make up for yourself which side of that you're on.
Or maybe you don't care about centralization/decentralization at all and just want to ban a broken mon or keep a mon that clearly isn't broken, that's also fine by me. I recognize that this is one of many ways to look at Kyurem-Black and the 1v1 metagame
 
Hello friendly 1v1 player people things. You may have noticed that I've been having a really good time in this suspect test, and I want to share with you my thoughts on it, as well as some thoughts on 1v1 as a whole. Most of this I figured out about 2 months ago when thinking about why I didn't ladder much anymore, and part of it I thought up while playing in this Kyurem-Black ladder meta. Note: I'm currently kinda neutral about this whole thing, which is nice because it means I can make a (mostly) neutral post.

The suspect in my eyes comes down to what you want for 1v1. Don't worry this isn't some vague statement! I'm giving you 2 options
- You want a more centralized meta
- You want a less centralized meta

UOP what are you talking about
Centralization is a term that has been thrown around a lot in the past 2 years of 1v1, and is always portrayed as something evil, but in my absence from 1v1 I've realized that it's not necessarily evil. Centralization can be good, as can decentralization. Both can also be bad, it's up to what you want.
A decentralized metagame brings more variety, the emphasis in this meta is on surprise, which is also what will bring you the furthest because of the large quantities of just-barely-not-good-enough pokemon. You can't beat them all so you gotta outwtf Yes, outwtf is a word now them.
A centralized meta on the other hand emphasizes preparation. In a centralized metagame teams are more predictable and thus easier to counter, giving you more room to be a good teambuilder and work towards a team that beats a larger portion of the relevant metagame. This doesn't mean you don't get a chance to be creative however, centralized metagames is also where highly efficient niche sets like Stunfisk manage to blossom.


You're wondering: Why hasn't he mentioned KyuB? Honestly... Because KyuB doesn't matter to me, I think what's important is what Kyurem-Black does to the metagame and not what it does on its own. Sure it's powerful and borderline broken, but it has its counters and has the potential to be balanced in a centralized meta. On the other side, sure it has counters, but maybe not enough, and that makes it centralize the meta too much and means it should be banned. You're going to make up for yourself which side of that you're on.
Or maybe you don't care about centralization/decentralization at all and just want to ban a broken mon or keep a mon that clearly isn't broken, that's also fine by me. I recognize that this is one of many ways to look at Kyurem-Black and the 1v1 metagame
Yes but you failed to draw the line between centralizing and overcentralizing. Yes, centralizing is good and healthy for the metagame so it doesn't turn into a chaos of surprises after surprises but overcentralizing is a plague for the metagame. Overcentralizing is what force users to use niche Pokémon that has significantly no use outside of checking this Pokémon.
Pokémon such as Mega Gyarados, Tapu Lele and more are centralizing as you are forced to follow a trail left behind which allows you to not go the unknown. Meanwhile, right now, Kyurem-Black is Overcentralizing, sorry but using niche Pokémon to counter one big boy is what I consider unhealthy. No, Kyurem-Black doesn't balance the metagame.

In the end, if you want a fun and disorganized metagame then free Kyurem-Black, but you'll get tired of it soon and claim more suspects. If you want a competitive metagame I'd consider keeping Kyurem-Black out of the equation and let things be as they are.
 
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UnleashOurPassion

Permanently tired
is a Battle Simulator Driver
I guess you fail to grasp the difference between centralizing and overcentralizing. Yes, centralizing is good and healthy for the metagame so it doesn't turn into a chaos of surprises after surprises but overcentralizing is a plague for the metagame. Overcentralizing is what force users to use niche Pokémon that has significantly no use outside of checking this Pokémon.
Pokémon such as Mega Gyarados, Tapu Lele and more are centralizing as you are forced to follow a trail left behind which allows you to not go the unknown. Meanwhile, right now, Kyurem-Black is Overcentralizing, sorry but using niche Pokémon to counter one big boy is what I consider unhealthy. No, Kyurem-Black doesn't balance the metagame.

In the end, if you want a fun and disorganized metagame then free Kyurem-Black, but you'll get tired of it soon and claim more suspects. If you want a competitive metagame I'd consider keeping Kyurem-Black out of the equation and let things be as they are.
I think you fail to grasp the purpose of my post, it is up to everyone to decide if Kyurem-Black is overcentralizing or not, and I am not making a statement about the nature of the centralization by Kyurem-Black, your attempt to call it overcentralizing at the expense of my informative post is ungrounded and honestly quite immature and unprofessional.
By all means call it overcentralizing, I think it might be, that's why I made that post. But don't pretend I said that it isn't.
 

UnleashOurPassion

Permanently tired
is a Battle Simulator Driver
[8:30 PM] deg: that's probably not the words I wanted to use
[8:30 PM] deg: what I meant is that you failed to point out the lines between
[8:30 PM] deg: centralizing and overcentralizing
[8:30 PM] deg: and that's what we need in the kyub suspect
Crisis averted.

So yeah it's actually really important that we find the line between centralizing and overcentralizing, to me the most important thing there is the ability to prepare for Kyurem-Black, checks and counters have been listed (it's true that Kyurem-Black can beat a bunch of its checks, but there is attached opportunity cost), more probably exist, and the important question is are those counters common, viable, easy to use, or are they a bunch of niche mons that you put on your team just to beat KyuB
 
Reactions: DEG
My opinion on KyuB is very mixed. But personally I would vote NO BAN if I get reqs; but that opinion could change.

I first started playing 1v1 at the very end of gen 6. As the hype around Pokémon Go got me back into Pokémon and I decided to preorder sun and moon. I discovered Pokémon showdown and began building and battling with very stupid teams.

1v1 caught my eye because i found a really fun magnetite move set and I wanted to use it but it didn't work well in 6v6. So I tried it in 1v1 and climbed to 1500 with a Mega Lopunny, Deo-D, magnemite team. I thought I was amazing and 1v1 instantly became my favorite meta bwcause I climbed way higher than in OU when I was hardstuck 1100 elo.

KyuB became one of my favorite threats to use. I mostly used basic scarf and specs sets but they allowed me to climb on the ladder. KyuB is a very good Pokémon but it is not broken.

KyuB has countless check and a hard counter in magearna. I really do not think it is broken and would fit quite nicely into the meta. Shifting away from banning and more towards unbanning I think is what the meta needs to thrive, as all these bans have damaged diversity.

Then again it still is a very powerful Pokémon which is why my opinion could easily change. Just before the council vote that banned KyuB; I actually climbed to 1400 on the ladder with a auto clicker and KyuB. It sent out KyuB then clicked outrage. So maybe it is a bit to powerful. But hey thats the point of a suspect test, to formulate an opinion. This suspect test should be lots of fun!
 

TDA

corrupt auth xd
is a Pre-Contributor
Kyurem Black is overcentralizing. You can see this in the chat in the first few days of Kyurem Black being unbanned for the suspect; people in chat constantly asking "Is x and y a Kyurem-Black counter?" with the usual response being "no" or "no, but it beats this set or this spread or this item.". This may seem trivial, but if players who don't have experience fighting Kyurem-Black, but are experienced in the metagame otherwise, cannot intuitively create solid answers to a Pokemon, that is troubling. It's literally an Ubers Greninja, in that it is practically or literally uncounterable, but with double the amount of viable sets and each set beating more than any one Greninja spread.

You also need to have 2 Kyurem-Black checks on any semblance of a viable team in order to cover up every possible spread that can be run on Kyurem-Black. It's not unheard of to have one dedicated answer to beat primarily an S rank mon, but two is of stretching it. The closest you get to true counters are powerful Steel-types like Mega Metagross and Durant, but it's not that hard to find some way to beat anything that 'should' beat Kyurem-Black.

I think this notion, which has admittedly only come to me while writing this post, really points out the problem in Kyurem-Black: If you were to take away items and EV spreads from every Pokemon in the metagame, only using base stats and moves, and then compare how each Pokemon does in the metagame, Kyurem-Black would very clearly be the most powerful. Essentially, Kyurem-Black has a set of Pokemon it can basically beat almost all of the time on any set it runs, more so than any other mon, which allows it to viably run so many sets; essentially, the worst, most trivial cteam, something like Iapapa or Groundium Z Kyurem-Black would still be a B rank at worst. You can't really say that for Charizard X (something like Rock Tomb EQ anti Heatran Char X comes to mind, which is terrible besides for its express purpose, or Electrium Dragonite, which doesn't even do its job of beating Mega Gyarados) On the other end of the spectrum, sets like Scarf, Icium, and Band are all 3 S or A+ ranked sets that all require different archetypes to beat.

Kyurem-Black is a mon that is powerful both naturally and in the numerous options it has at its disposal. Practically, its a mon used to cteam individuals without sacrificing general reliability. If this by itself doesn't scream unhealthy, I don't know what does.
 
Unban Kyub, oh my god. There's so many reasons why I say this.

#1 It shouldn't have been banned.
This is particularly important because if it was never banned, well, it'd still be in the meta (yeah I know another suspect could have happened but it's pretty absurd to suspect 1 mon twice in that short of a time period).

Yeah. I could ramble about this all day but:
- It, when suspected, was not banned.
- There is a precedent regarding overriding council votes that we have no reason to ignore, or in general not follow. (1, 2). If you don't know what happened there, the council of Doubles OU overrode a suspect test in order to ban Jirachi, and coincidentally voted on something else too. However unlike early 2018 1v1, Smogon Admins/Smods actually cared about the tier and it was official so this would not pass.
- The majority, 3/5, of the voters have retired. This was all that was needed to ban it, and this is kind of silly when that number of people have retired. (By the way, those people were just as inactive then as they are now).

#2 It fits into the meta super well.
It has a good chance vs charx, it loses to the extremely common fairies and steels (Gear @ 7.93863%, Lele @ 8.25114%, Aegislash @ 7.01524%, Mawile-Mega @ 6.73495% (is this oras??)), along with stuff like Mew at 4.82353% which I don't see why isn't considered a counter. Additionally, Kyub counters things people complain about a ton like Dnite (which pretty much only gets countered by gyara in the current meta) and Jumpluff. Look at this! There's so many good ways to beat Kyub, it's not just trampling everything people use often. I honestly don't know how it could fit into the meta any better.

#3 Its versatility isn't overly problematic
Lost heros said it well.
Read: If the KyuB player was so determined they could purposefully make their KyuB a vastly worse version of another Pokémon to beat way less Pokémon once.
If you actually live in reality land, Kyub runs scarf and icium. Stuff like groundium is, well bad, but more importantly uncommon.
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 232 HP / 36 SpD Magearna: 340-400 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Groundium is a roll vs like one of the 2 mons that it actually tries to beat (not to mention it's pretty wise to run spdef for hp fire gren), and only really works vs slow Metagrosses. You could definetely call this bad. Electrium (super unset) I don't even need to describe for you to have an opinion of. Band is just unoptimal (fat isnt even that good at beating gyaras in sm, theyre too fast). Specs is just too dated to work well. Dragonium is ok but is mostly overshadowed by icium.

All of this isn't even talking about how much it misses with scarf / an actually good zmove. They're better, period.

Overall its non scarf / icium sets are pretty darn trash. Its versatility is pretty overrated and overstated. It can run other stuff but those sets aren't even effective at what they want to do, and additionally are so much worse than scarf/icium.

(do note nobody uses trash like specs but old stats are too old and I don't wanna use them because that was a way diff meta).

#4 It isn't (too) overcentralizing
It's barely centralizing imo.

With Fairies, Steels, Psychics and Waters being as prominent as they are now, how would Kyub warp the meta when the meta is already built to withstand what it has to offer? You can't get too much more Kyub unfriendly than it currently is. All you have to do is look at the vr.

S
Charizard-Mega - can win
Dragonite - loss
Gyarados-Mega - mostly wins (use outrage, people)


A plus Rank
Magearna - wins
Porygon-Z - can win
Tapu Lele - wins

A Rank
Greninja - loss
Meloetta - wins
Metagross-Mega - wins
Slowbro-Mega - wins
Zygarde-Complete - loss


A minus Rank
Gardevoir-Mega - wins
Jumpluff - can win
Landorus-Therian - loss
Magnezone - loss
Mew - wins

wins: 7/16
mostly wins: 1/16
can win: 3/16
loss: 5/16

Only 31.25% of the upper vr has no shot vs kyub. I think the rest shows the meta is pretty prepared for it. This isn't even thinking about how the meta would adjust to its presence.
You also need to have 2 Kyurem-Black checks on any semblance of a viable team in order to cover up every possible spread that can be run on Kyurem-Black. It's not unheard of to have one dedicated answer to beat primarily an S rank mon, but two is of stretching it. The closest you get to true counters are powerful Steel-types like Mega Metagross and Durant, but it's not that hard to find some way to beat anything that 'should' beat Kyurem-Black.
No you don't. I have no clue why you're making up this arbitrary rule. Unless those checks are the softest item-dependant checks in the world (which are bad, kind of like how you shouldn't have to predict what zard it is at preview) you should be able to run a Magearna or a Mew and call it a day (2 splashable mons anyways). Not saying you should use gyara and not think about Kyub again while building but you're just just making something up to fit your narrative. And you can counter Kyub by the way, just scroll up to Uop's post c:


Overall Kyub isn't broken, overcentralizing nor uncompetitive and shouldn't have been banned in the first place. But hey, at the end of the day it has a wide movepool, and that scares people.

Side note: I feel like people newer to 1v1 who weren't relevant, good, or active during Kyub meta should absolutely keep an open mind about this thing. I know you guys wanna keep a meta where you can use Sudowoodo and pretend it's good or unique mon, but try to form an opinion on Kyub without bias.
 

lost heros

Meme Master
Kyurem Black is overcentralizing. You can see this in the chat in the first few days of Kyurem Black being unbanned for the suspect; people in chat constantly asking "Is x and y a Kyurem-Black counter?" with the usual response being "no" or "no, but it beats this set or this spread or this item.".
Maybe, and this may be out there. But it's not that KyuB is uncounterable, but its rather we've had it banned for a year, and many players are unfamiliar with it and are asking because, unlike you and me, don't actually know if something is a good answer to Kyurem-B or not.

This may seem trivial, but if players who don't have experience fighting Kyurem-Black, but are experienced in the metagame otherwise, cannot intuitively create solid answers to a Pokemon, that is troubling.
That's definitely not a KyuB exclusive. Like just look at Mew for example. If someone doesn't know what it do, it can be relatively difficult to deal with, even using pokemon you assume has a good advantage most of the time.
It's literally an Ubers Greninja, in that it is practically or literally uncounterable, but with double the amount of viable sets and each set beating more than any one Greninja spread.
yea ok. This isn't true. Kyurem-B has several strong sets, but the sets it "uses" to beat the pokemon that counter it, are and should be considered non-sets.

You also need to have 2 Kyurem-Black checks on any semblance of a viable team in order to cover up every possible spread that can be run on Kyurem-Black. It's not unheard of to have one dedicated answer to beat primarily an S rank mon, but two is of stretching it. The closest you get to true counters are powerful Steel-types like Mega Metagross and Durant, but it's not that hard to find some way to beat anything that 'should' beat Kyurem-Black.
If your dedicated Kyurem-B check, is being beaten by a really bad KyuB set, then there are two scenarios.
1. Incidentally you have a pokemon that can probably easily beat this bad KyuB set, because this is a bad KyuB set
2. Your team sucks.

Saying you need two checks is one untrue, two fairly common for S rank pokemon because generally teams that take advantage of lower rank pokemon that are very good at beating high rank pokemon necessitate almost always run 2 pokemon that each cover the same good threat, but are different in the other things they do.

I think this notion, which has admittedly only come to me while writing this post, really points out the problem in Kyurem-Black: If you were to take away items and EV spreads from every Pokemon in the metagame, only using base stats and moves, and then compare how each Pokemon does in the metagame, Kyurem-Black would very clearly be the most powerful.
Yea, let's just ignore these very important and clearly influential pieces of pokemon. I also find it humorous how we're also ignoring ZygC which has a higher BST than KyuB, the several other pokemon with Base 700 stats Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, Mega TTar, Mega Lati@s, or the other pokemon with really high stats, like Hoopa-U, Aegislash, and normal Kyurem. Or like other pokemon that are really good at specializing like Kartana and Xurkitree.

Maybe we should stop this endless theorymonning, and actually look at Kyurem-B in the 1v1 metagame.
Essentially, Kyurem-Black has a set of Pokemon it can basically beat almost all of the time on any set it runs, more so than any other mon, which allows it to viably run so many sets; essentially, the worst, most trivial cteam, something like Iapapa or Groundium Z Kyurem-Black would still be a B rank at worst. You can't really say that for Charizard X (something like Rock Tomb EQ anti Heatran Char X comes to mind, which is terrible besides for its express purpose, or Electrium Dragonite, which doesn't even do its job of beating Mega Gyarados) On the other end of the spectrum, sets like Scarf, Icium, and Band are all 3 S or A+ ranked sets that all require different archetypes to beat.
Ok, for argument's sake let's imagine that whatever Meme KyuB you're running is actually B rank. That's not too shabby. I like my B rank pokemon, they're pretty good. Now of course when I run a B rank pokemon, I forego running a different pokemon in that spot. However, I can still run these other really good pokemon in my other two spots. Meaning that my choice to run a weaker pokemon is mitigated. You can argue that when you run whatever meme KyuB you only assume this same cost. But that's not true. By purposefully running a bad Kyurem-B, you lose the opportunity to also run a good Kyurem-B, and are rewarded with being a shitty lure.

To help illustrate my point consider it like this:
I can run Porygon-Z on my team, and in reality I can run 3-4 sets, the weakest being choice specs. Choice Specs is a pretty good stall breaker set, being able to beating everything from Mega Slowbro and Mega Venusaur, while maintaining a good matchup against things like Mega Gyarados. We currently have this rated as B+. A similar pokemon would be Choice Specs Genesect. Also rated B+, also good at stallbreaking and retains a good matchup against Mega Gyarados. The main difference is that currently Choice Specs Genesect is the highest rated Genesect set. This means that Choice Specs Genesect has a significantly lower opportunity cost than Choice Specs Porygon-Z. And this shows in usage.

Specs Genesect has a 36% of 4% usage.
Specs PZ has 9% of 5% usage.
The difference is outstanding. Purposefully running worse sets on good pokemon has a naturally higher cost than running worse pokemon, by a significant margin. And remember. This is a simple A+>B+ range. Comparing the opportunity cost from an S rank set to a potentially B/B- is huge.
 
Personally, I don't really care about Kyurem-Black, banned or otherwise. My main concern with it is that it basically only ever got into 1v1 through essence of not being Uber-viable in 6v6 alone, which should have no effect on whether or not it gets to be freed in 1v1, as it is still a cover legendary, with similar 1v1 viability to other cover legends with the same or even lesser viable qualities to them. If Kyurem-Black is fine, what's stopping us from looking at freeing Zekrom, Giratina-O, or Palkia? While these Pokemon might not "break" 1v1, they drastically warp it into a very different and much more centralized metagame, due to the rising power creep that would result from unbanning them.

In my opinion, there are basically two kinds of centralization in 1v1: Pokemon Centralization and Set Centralization.
  • Pokemon Centralization is straightforward in that the metagame basically mandates that you either A: use the centralizing Pokemon yourself, or B: prepare yourself with some method of handling the centralizing Pokemon in the event you come across it.
    • While the logic of "you struggle against everything you don't prepare for" is valid, it's not an entirely sound argument, as there will often be things that your Pokemon just naturally handle without needing highly specific EVs or techs; ex. Charizard-X naturally beats Ferrothorn, while needing specific EVs to beat Naganadel.
    • With the above in mind, take a moment and consider whether or not Kyurem-Black is a Pokemon that can be "prepared for" to a sufficient extent by a considerable number of Pokemon. Can you "build" for Kyurem-Black? Or are you limited mainly to natural counters that don't need particular builds to beat it? Is it even reasonable for Pokemon to be built for Kyurem-Black, when they could instead be built for other purposes? The answers to these questions are all subjectively defined.
  • Set Centralization, on the other hand, is the state of when the main archetype of most sets in a metagame are more or less the same.
    • An example of this is how most viable non-Mega Pokemon often use a Z-move, as well as the common presence of high BP (base power) moves, Substitute, and Taunt.
    • Set Centralization is also evident in the spreads of Pokemon, namely in what Pokemon each spread is built to beat. For example, in 1v1, you'll often find Pokemon that are crept to outspeed base 100 Speed Pokemon, or Pokemon that are bulked to withstand a Charizard-X Flare Blitz
    • For 1v1, Set Centralization is somewhat unavoidable, as many of the more team-based archetypes present in all other metagames are absent, due to each Pokemon needing to have some means of defeating a Pokemon.
I bring all this up to hopefully get people thinking about how centralizing each Pokemon is, including Kyurem-Black and maybe even the other Pokemon named above. Bear in mind, being centralizing is not immediate grounds for a ban; everything centralizes the metagame to some extent, for one reason or another. It is something becoming excessively centralizing that we need to be wary of ("excessively" also being a subjectively defined notion that varies with the views of each person interpreting it).

All that said, I figured I'd do some fact-checking on fellow organism-on-planet-earth dom's vr matchups:
S
Charizard-Mega - can win You can win with a lot of physical bulk and near max speed or Tailwind (lol), but you sacrifice matchups against special attackers
Dragonite - loss
Gyarados-Mega - mostly wins (use outrage, people) Takes an additional 90 something Def EVs beyond your usual Max HP to win reliably, plus Outrage.


A plus Rank
Magearna - wins The famous bulky Icium set (and zmove sets in general) can very easily replace Substitute and either Outrage or Fusion Bolt for Noble Roar and Roost to win this matchup and more
Porygon-Z - can win Takes a little bit more bulk on PZ than your average anti-zardX bulk to live a scarf Kyub hit, but gets donked by non-scarf, especially with how relatively easy it is to live a Scarf PZ Hyper Beam
Tapu Lele - wins Same issue as PZ, but can at least deal with Specs and Dragonium

A Rank
Greninja - loss
Meloetta - wins loss/can win in the age of bulky Z-Hyper Beam, you find yourself no longer being able to reliably OHKO Kyurem-Black. You can still beat it with Specs Hyper Beam, but then you sacrifice the very thing that made Meloetta A rank in the first place.
Metagross-Mega - wins
Slowbro-Mega - wins
Zygarde-Complete - loss


A minus Rank
Gardevoir-Mega - wins
Jumpluff - can win
Landorus-Therian - loss
Magnezone - loss
Mew - wins mostly Kee

wins: 7/16 6/16
mostly wins: 1/16
can win: 3/16
loss: 5/16
6/16
These matchups illustrate my point with Kyurem-Black, in that you either beat it naturally, like most bulky Steels with some kind of powerful nuke do, or you bend over backwards trying to beat it with some weird super niche physdef set, if you even can. If you look a couple ranks further down, you'll see that the trend continues with Kyub's checks and counters consisting mostly of type resistances with the power to nuke back with a high-power super effective hit (note: not even Specs Celesteela kills reliably), Pokemon that have absurdly high bulk tiers like Tyranitar-Mega and Chansey, and a few Pokemon that bend over backwards sacrificing things they need for other matchups to beat almost specifically kyub, like physdef lopunny, rockium donphan, fairium/specs primarina and fini, and scarf garchomp. Sure, a lot of these do reliably beat Kyurem-Black, but the opportunity cost that many of the non-natural counters have to pay in order to do so is just too much for the inclusion of Kyurem-Black to be conducive to a healthy metagame, in my opinion.
 

UnleashOurPassion

Permanently tired
is a Battle Simulator Driver
Wew, the thread really came to life while I was asleep! Looks like there's a lot for me to comment on so it's time to get started.
A few people already pointed out some things, so I'll be partially skipping over those

Kyurem Black is overcentralizing. You can see this in the chat in the first few days of Kyurem Black being unbanned for the suspect; people in chat constantly asking "Is x and y a Kyurem-Black counter?" with the usual response being "no" or "no, but it beats this set or this spread or this item.". This may seem trivial, but if players who don't have experience fighting Kyurem-Black, but are experienced in the metagame otherwise, cannot intuitively create solid answers to a Pokemon, that is troubling.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the 1v1 community is bad or anything, but this wouldn't be the first time they were unable to find an answer to something trivial. Remember when Gyarados almost got banned, For all you new players out there: Yeah that happened or when Blaziken got an unban suspect? New and experienced players alike took some time to find counters to it, and eventually they found them, and now they're not considered a problem at all. The 1v1 community is bigger now, so there are a lot more new players in the room as well, and those new players are going to grasp onto anything they can find to beat Kyurem-Black their own way, this is what you're seeing in the 1v1 room: Just people learning how to beat KyuB, which is to be expected in the first few days of an unban. Besides, "hard to counter intuitively" is not synonymous for overcentralizing

For the rest of that post, I'm going to refer to a few things lost heros said
If your dedicated Kyurem-B check, is being beaten by a really bad KyuB set, then there are two scenarios.
1. Incidentally you have a pokemon that can probably easily beat this bad KyuB set, because this is a bad KyuB set
2. Your team sucks.
This way of putting things really made me laugh, it's not entirely untrue though.

lost also has a very good point in that it's wrong to look exclusively at base stats and moves to determine a Pokémon's value. As TDA put it:
If you were to take away items and EV spreads from every Pokemon in the metagame
Creating a hypothetical universe that will never exist kinda ruined that whole paragraph for me.


I know you've all lost attention by now, so have this KyuB to grab your attention
anyway
Next post, dom you bring up a few good points and a few weaker ones.
#1 It shouldn't have been banned.
Okay yes this happened but I don't think it's something to really base this suspect's results off of, the metagame changed at this point so it's kinda hard to treat this suspect with the past results in mind like it's still happening in the meta that existed over a year ago
#2 It fits into the meta super well.
I really like this because it's not something I thought of prior to reading this post. It's true that KyuB beats things people don't like (Jumpluff, Whimsicott (sometimes), Dragonite, Xard and Yard) and loses to things people do like (Magearna, Lele, Metagross, Mawile, Terrakion, Aegislash). And I know that for some of these, there is a KyuB set that beats them, which brings me to the next point
#3 Its versatility isn't overly problematic
Lost heros said it well.
You're right, lost heros did say it well, nothing I have to add.
#4 It isn't (too) overcentralizing
This one is a matter of perspective but with everything I'm reading from the thread, I'm starting to agree with the people who say it's not too centralizing. This is also strengthened by my observations on ladder, in that I have not had significant trouble beating KyuB in the roughly 700 games I've played in the past days. One thing I did notice is that I've managed to perform significantly better on this ladder. Not only when I'm using Kyurem-Black, but also without it.


Here have a Swadloon drawing I made a few days ago when I was bored
DISCLAIMER Swadloon does not beat Kyurem-Black

Are there more posts?
I'm skipping lost heros because he was mostly reacting to other people. Any particularly good and bad points he made will be hidden in this post in some way
Which brings me to Osra.
If Kyurem-Black is fine, what's stopping us from looking at freeing Zekrom, Giratina-O, or Palkia?
One day we'll have a suspect test without someone mentioning Zekrom, I believe!

Okay now that I've covered that let's get to the actual good part of the post. In my opinion the distinction made between Pokemon Centralization and Set Centralization is an interesting one, and built up well to the point you were trying to make.

Unfortunately after that point I think things went downhill. You make a point about a pokemon having to bend over backwards to beat KyuB and in the process drop most of their viability, but then you basically make Kyurem-Black do the same thing in your fact-checking against dom's VR analysis (which I agree was a little too simplistic but it got the job done). I think it's weird to state that something has to bend over backwards to beat Kyurem-Black, but at the same time saying Kyurem-Black can beat pretty much everything so long as it bends over backwards.

Note: I am aware that the niche sets you mentioned were not included in your final count of wins/losses, but it still feels weird to even mention them when realistically they have little to no relevance.

but the opportunity cost that many of the non-natural counters have to pay in order to do so is just too much for the inclusion of Kyurem-Black to be conducive to a healthy metagame, in my opinion.
And lastly, I really want to highlight this. I think this quote is true from your point of view, but probably untrue from someone else's. How much leeway you are willing to give Kyurem-Black in terms of centralization is a question everyone will need to decide for themselves, but your opinion is by no means wrong!

ok that took me way too long... any more posts left?
I'll do a real analysis later but here is the kyub song
hope you guys like it
nothing to say about this one.


Where I stand now
I started off this suspect test neutral but with an edge towards Ban KyuB. After playing and getting reqs I went towards full neutral because I didn't see any of the problems I was expecting. And now after going over the thread... I think the unban side of the conflict has done a great job writing informative posts that honestly did a good job convincing me, while the posts made by the ban side of the conflict seem on average more emotional than argumentative
 
Unfortunately after that point I think things went downhill. You make a point about a pokemon having to bend over backwards to beat KyuB and in the process drop most of their viability, but then you basically make Kyurem-Black do the same thing in your fact-checking against dom's VR analysis (which I agree was a little too simplistic but it got the job done). I think it's weird to state that something has to bend over backwards to beat Kyurem-Black, but at the same time saying Kyurem-Black can beat pretty much everything so long as it bends over backwards.

Note: I am aware that the niche sets you mentioned were not included in your final count of wins/losses, but it still feels weird to even mention them when realistically they have little to no relevance.
I didn't mention any niche kyub sets because of that hypocrisy-
Kyurem-Black's regular sets manage to do the things I mention above all on their own (Regular sets being Choice Scarf, Fast Icium, and Bulky Icium). Kyurem-Black only succeeds at doing even more when people take the time to EV it right or figure out techs.
 
I'd like to add to Osra VR analysis is that ladder currently is specifically a Kyurem-Black suspect test so everyone is using Kyurem-Black and its counters to get requirements (easily). In this specific environment, meeting Kyurem-Black is not a surprise, and most of its sets are known and detectable. But if you look to the future of ladder, you will never know when to expect Kyurem-Black which makes the usage of its specific counter niche making it overcentralizing. Plus when looking at it in a tournament context, this is where we take into accounts the countless sets, and where the element of niche and bad Kyub set are erased since you're specifically using it as a lure to gain an easy win and with Kyub being good at using everything this makes tournament games more "unknown" which is unhealthy.

When voting or formulating your thoughts don't fixate only on current ladder but future ladder and and the tournament scene.
 

Quote

Cautiously Optimistic
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I'd like to add to Osra VR analysis is that ladder currently is specifically a Kyurem-Black suspect test so everyone is using Kyurem-Black and its counters to get requirements (easily). In this specific environment, meeting Kyurem-Black is not a surprise, and most of its sets are known and detectable. But if you look to the future of ladder, you will never know when to expect Kyurem-Black which makes the usage of its specific counter niche making it overcentralizing. Plus when looking at it in a tournament context, this is where we take into accounts the countless sets, and where the element of niche and bad Kyub set are erased since you're specifically using it as a lure to gain an easy win and with Kyub being good at using everything this makes tournament games more "unknown" which is unhealthy.

When voting or formulating your thoughts don't fixate only on current ladder but future ladder and and the tournament scene.
No, DEG. If you're building good teams, you take into account ALL top tier Pokemon. We don't forget about KyuB just because the suspect is over.
 
No, DEG. If you're building good teams, you take into account ALL top tier Pokemon. We don't forget about KyuB just because the suspect is over.
As I said, after the ladder all these niche kyub counters will be nothing but niche counters that will only serve little purpose.
 

UnleashOurPassion

Permanently tired
is a Battle Simulator Driver
As I said, after the ladder all these niche kyub counters will be nothing but niche counters that will only serve little purpose.
Code:
 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       | 
 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | 1    | Kyurem-Black       | 15.03462% | 28248  |  9.446% | 9854   | 20.280% | 
 | 2    | Gyarados-Mega      | 14.44593% | 22659  |  7.577% | 7256   | 14.933% | 
 | 3    | Tapu Koko          | 13.61662% | 20921  |  6.996% | 6631   | 13.647% | 
 | 4    | Charizard-Mega-X   | 12.38817% | 22621  |  7.565% | 8287   | 17.055% | 
 | 5    | Mimikyu            | 11.13718% | 24217  |  8.098% | 9124   | 18.777% | 
 | 6    | Zygarde            | 10.76609% | 14222  |  4.756% | 4883   | 10.049% | 
 | 7    | Metagross-Mega     |  9.35188% | 14624  |  4.890% | 4577   |  9.420% | 
 | 8    | Charizard-Mega-Y   |  8.47831% | 18275  |  6.111% | 6184   | 12.727% | 
 | 9    | Landorus-Therian   |  7.02241% | 8280   |  2.769% | 2666   |  5.487% | 
 | 10   | Tapu Lele          |  6.70808% | 9930   |  3.321% | 3202   |  6.590% | 
 | 11   | Magearna           |  5.95001% | 8915   |  2.981% | 2830   |  5.824% | 
 | 12   | Porygon-Z          |  5.14393% | 11579  |  3.872% | 4087   |  8.411% | 
 | 13   | Aegislash          |  4.67958% | 8490   |  2.839% | 3216   |  6.619% | 
 | 14   | Lopunny-Mega       |  4.64841% | 17629  |  5.895% | 6473   | 13.321% | 
 | 15   | Primarina          |  4.63109% | 6139   |  2.053% | 2255   |  4.641% | 
 | 16   | Dragonite          |  4.62019% | 13319  |  4.454% | 4829   |  9.938% | 
 | 17   | Venusaur-Mega      |  4.39701% | 10951  |  3.662% | 3268   |  6.726% | 
 | 18   | Donphan            |  4.14215% | 6892   |  2.305% | 2653   |  5.460% | 
 | 19   | Heatran            |  3.85016% | 7201   |  2.408% | 2256   |  4.643% | 
 | 20   | Tapu Fini          |  3.70557% | 5744   |  1.921% | 1882   |  3.873% | 
 | 21   | Snorlax            |  3.49219% | 8169   |  2.732% | 2822   |  5.808% | 
 | 22   | Slowbro-Mega       |  3.40155% | 4640   |  1.552% | 1459   |  3.003% | 
 | 23   | Necrozma           |  3.37097% | 4231   |  1.415% | 1825   |  3.756% | 
 | 24   | Pyukumuku          |  3.35943% | 3847   |  1.286% | 1304   |  2.684% | 
 | 25   | Mawile-Mega        |  3.30894% | 9006   |  3.012% | 2998   |  6.170% | 
 | 26   | Magnezone          |  3.26012% | 6047   |  2.022% | 2074   |  4.268% | 
 | 27   | Naganadel          |  3.25296% | 7849   |  2.625% | 2852   |  5.869% | 
 | 28   | Mew                |  3.03803% | 6015   |  2.011% | 2280   |  4.692% | 
 | 29   | Greninja           |  2.91258% | 12626  |  4.222% | 4224   |  8.693% | 
 | 30   | Tyranitar-Mega     |  2.89358% | 4312   |  1.442% | 1300   |  2.675% | 
 | 31   | Genesect           |  2.86057% | 5274   |  1.764% | 1861   |  3.830% | 
 | 32   | Victini            |  2.74882% | 6272   |  2.097% | 2269   |  4.670% | 
 | 33   | Blacephalon        |  2.71202% | 12607  |  4.216% | 4274   |  8.796% | 
 | 34   | Gardevoir-Mega     |  2.68451% | 6287   |  2.102% | 2173   |  4.472% | 
 | 35   | Celesteela         |  2.64346% | 6582   |  2.201% | 2232   |  4.593% | 
 | 36   | Sawk               |  2.56457% | 3815   |  1.276% | 1488   |  3.062% | 
 | 37   | Heracross-Mega     |  2.34762% | 5379   |  1.799% | 1685   |  3.468% | 
 | 38   | Blaziken-Mega      |  2.32599% | 8609   |  2.879% | 3098   |  6.376% | 
 | 39   | Kartana            |  2.13424% | 7291   |  2.438% | 2453   |  5.048% | 
 | 40   | Golem              |  2.09389% | 2759   |  0.923% | 1045   |  2.151% | 
 | 41   | Ferrothorn         |  2.05434% | 5096   |  1.704% | 1590   |  3.272% | 
 | 42   | Lucario-Mega       |  2.04104% | 7597   |  2.540% | 2619   |  5.390% | 
 | 43   | Garchomp           |  2.01732% | 6536   |  2.186% | 2285   |  4.703% | 
 | 44   | Pinsir-Mega        |  1.97872% | 4393   |  1.469% | 1386   |  2.852% | 
 | 45   | Jumpluff           |  1.87001% | 3075   |  1.028% | 1033   |  2.126% | 
 | 46   | Whimsicott         |  1.77098% | 6360   |  2.127% | 2312   |  4.758% | 
 | 47   | Aggron-Mega        |  1.72975% | 5140   |  1.719% | 1920   |  3.951% | 
 | 48   | Scizor-Mega        |  1.68050% | 5237   |  1.751% | 1456   |  2.996% | 
 | 49   | Jirachi            |  1.66162% | 6171   |  2.064% | 2321   |  4.777% | 
 | 50   | Chansey            |  1.64249% | 6899   |  2.307% | 1720   |  3.540% |
Let's have a look at a few of the "niche" kyub counters in a metagame from about a year ago, which was when KyuB had fully settled in the 1v1 metagame and everyone was prepared to face it.

Terrakion: Beats KyuB, ZardX, ZardY, Porygon-Z, Mega Venusaur, Heatran, Naganadel, Mega Tyranitar, Victini, Blacephalon, (some celesteela), Ferrothorn, Mega Pinsir and Chansey

It is at this point that UOP realized he's too lazy for this post

Someone else can continue my work if they want, but my point is that there's a lot of things that get beaten by these supposed niche counters, which is further reinforced by the fact that the majority of the mentioned mons that beat KyuB have been ranked at least B on the VR now or in the past.
Also looking at this top 50 usage, which should logically be viable mons, there's a lot of them that actually beat Kyurem-Black with varying consistency like Whimsicott, Mega Pinsir and Mega Gardevoir among the low end of top 50, and Lando-T Don't pretend this doesn't beat Icium-Z, Lele and Magearna at the higher end
 
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