While vacuum wave seems neat, I think the loss in stopping power and sucker punch from going special as opposed to physical just isn't worth it. from my experiences you can miss some key threats like primarina by not being phys. either way I do agree with the C- rank, but I think it deserves that rank because of being a nice fighting mon with a water immunity, and not for the special sets.
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Resource 1v1 Viability Rankings
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I'd like to nom Gyarados (not just its mega evolution) as an S tier mon.
The reasoning behind it is about the same as why ZardY is currently S-Tier : the simple fact that you cannot necessarily tell what form of the pokemon you are going to face makes each form all the more potent, especially when they excel in different match-ups.
One set in particular that makes non mega Dos worth considering is the infamous Z-Bounce set. While MDos struggles against bulky grass types with a form of sustain, his non-mega form can carry a Flyinium Z to bait those and one shot them.
Long story short, I think that trying to separate mega forms from non-mega forms in the VR is not a good idea, and if anything, if a non-mega form of a viable Mega evolution is bad, we should consider the non mega form as an unset rather than an unmon.
The reasoning behind it is about the same as why ZardY is currently S-Tier : the simple fact that you cannot necessarily tell what form of the pokemon you are going to face makes each form all the more potent, especially when they excel in different match-ups.
One set in particular that makes non mega Dos worth considering is the infamous Z-Bounce set. While MDos struggles against bulky grass types with a form of sustain, his non-mega form can carry a Flyinium Z to bait those and one shot them.
Long story short, I think that trying to separate mega forms from non-mega forms in the VR is not a good idea, and if anything, if a non-mega form of a viable Mega evolution is bad, we should consider the non mega form as an unset rather than an unmon.
Metagross-Mega A -> A+
This thing is an absolute monster, and probably my favorite mon to use on the ladder. It's biggest selling point is it's ridiculously high stats across the board, with 145 Attack boosted by Tough Claws, 80/150/110 bulk and a very respectable 110 speed. With the exception of Zard, most of the top tier mons fail to check Metagross, as it can run Magnet Rise for ground types and Hammer Arm for Porygon-Z. Alongside it's powerful STAB in Meteor Mash, it has options such as Ice Punch, TPunch, EQ, Zen Headbutt and Hammer Arm. Meta is also a great abuser of substitute as it allows it to block Z-Moves and ruin Magearna. Although Metagross is often a victim of 4MSS it's unpredictability and sheer power should prove it worthy in the upper echelon of 1v1 mons.
Primarina B+ -> A-
Primarina is one of the tiers premier bulky offense mons. The Water/Fairy typing is a blessing, as it allows them to reliably counter ZardX and M-Gyara, arguably the two most powerful mons in the metagame. Primarina excels as a Torrent mon due to it's bulk, meaning that when paired with substitute it is easy to get into range. A Torrent boosted Oceanic Operetta will KO most mons that don't resist it even without SpA investment. Primarina is one of the tier's most formidable water types and thus deserves rise in ranking.
Tapu Fini B+ -> A-
This one is like it's other Water/Fairy fren but it has a few different tricks up it's shell. Instead of a strong water z-move, it instead usually uses Guardian of Alola, meaning that with Brine it's going to 2HKO almost any mon without recovery, while also having the option of a Waterium-Z set although it is usually outclassed Prima. Similar to Primarina, it too has the great privilege of defeating ZardX and MGyara and also threatens the other two S-rank mons. Fini is an excellent mon similar to Primarina and should get a rise along with it.
Jumpluff A- -> B
Jumpluff has faced stiff competition from other leech seed users such as Serperior and Whimsicott in the last few months. Unlike them, Jumpluff relies too much on Sleep Powder and is extremely susceptible to all taunt users. It isn't completely outclassed as a seeder however with it's ability to defeat mons with sleep that would otherwise OHKO it and likewise should be ranked similarly to the aforementioned Serperior and Whimsicott.
Serperior B- -> B
Serperior has seen a huge rise in usage for the right reasons. Similarly to other seeders, it's very fast and can win many matchups should it live turn 1 and set up Leech Seed. It makes up for it's lack of sleep moves with it's powerful Contrary + Leaf Storm, which allows it to 2HKO most mons which don't resist it.
Haxorus B- -> B
Although it struggles versus bulkier threats, Haxorus is a beast as it can defeat many of the tiers most common threats. It's most popularly run with scarf, becoming one of the meta's fastest mons in a tier where scarf usage is uncommon. This allows it to usually OHKO Dnite, ZardX, Lele and PoryZ, along with most other frail offensive mons. Alternatively, it can run band for ludicrous damage or Poisonium to take out PrimaFini. Overall a solid KyuB-esque mon that deserves a raise in it's ability to outspeed and KO many of the meta's fast offensive threats.
Tyranitar (Base) UR -> B+
This mon functions similarly to it's mega counterpart, however it can often be seen as the superior form through it's Rockium Z sets. Even without a Rock Tomb or Dragon Dance, a Rockium-Z Stone Edge will obliterate any mon that fails to resist it. It's ability to nuke any mon that it survives against should grant it a ranking alongside it's mega form.
Gyarados (Base) UR -> S
By no means does regular Gyarados' viability compare to it's mega's. Nonetheless, it does holds the niche of being able to defeat bulky grass types in it's Flyinium-Z set that would otherwise cripple the mega.
Eelektross UT -> UR
I'm usually up for interesting mons to be tested but this mon is straight up terrible. It sits at an awful 50 base speed, which means even with timid and scarf you're getting outsped by base 100 mons. It's got an awkward attack spread in 115/105 that makes it look semi-strong but not strong enough, meaning that even if you survive T1 you'll rarely pick up a KO unless you can use a STAB super-effective electric attack. It's got some decent coverage moves like flamethrower, superpower and iron tail but everything that it could potentially kill will outspeed it and kill this poor eel instead.
Togekiss A- -> B-
Togekiss is not good. It's bizarrely ranked higher than Jirachi who is arguably a stronger version than it, albeit without fast recovery. Togekiss isn't very strong or fast unless it's given scarf. Even with scarf when it fails to get the flinch it's under huge pressure from any setup mon or physical z-move, while Z-Thunder Wave loses to any fast sub user or hyper offense mon. It's ranking should reflect it's hax-reliance and it's low ladder usage.
Gengar-Mega C+ -> B-
A mon hindered by Hypnosis' terrible accuracy, Gengar-Mega is infamous for making uncertain matchups versus almost every mon. Despite this accuracy, the power to defeat so many mons, although inconsistently, cannot be understated and should result in a rank up for Gengar-Mega.
Zeraora B+ -> A-
Zeraora saw insane usage in the recent PL and it's no wonder why. It has a blistering 143 base speed, the fastest of any popular mon outside of scarf users. Zeraora has many viable sets that it can run such as Electrium-Z, Dragonium-Z and Life Orb. Along with this there are many moves it can run, from setup moves such as Bulk Up and Charge while also having offensive coverage in Outrage and Close Combat. Zeraora can be built to defeat all of the S rank mons and has made itself a staple among the premier mons of the tier.
Magneton B+ -> C+
Not sure why Magneton is ranked this high honestly. It is said to be run over it's evolution for outspeeding M-Gyarados, but this is bizarre as EQ usage on Gyara is about 50% regardless and the speed boost isn't giving you any other important wins. The bulk and power trade for 10 more speed just doesn't justify running it over Magnezone.
Fast HO Mons like Greninja, Lopunny, and Naga which all lose to it?
Metagross-Mega A -> A+
This thing is an absolute monster, and probably my favorite mon to use on the ladder. It's biggest selling point is it's ridiculously high stats across the board, with 145 Attack boosted by Tough Claws, 80/150/110 bulk and a very respectable 110 speed. With the exception of Zard, most of the top tier mons fail to check Metagross, as it can run Magnet Rise for ground types and Hammer Arm for Porygon-Z. Alongside it's powerful STAB in Meteor Mash, it has options such as Ice Punch, TPunch, EQ, Zen Headbutt and Hammer Arm. Meta is also a great abuser of substitute as it allows it to block Z-Moves and ruin Magearna. Although Metagross is often a victim of 4MSS it's unpredictability and sheer power should prove it worthy in the upper echelon of 1v1 mons.
Primarina B+ -> A-
Primarina is one of the tiers premier bulky offense mons. The Water/Fairy typing is a blessing, as it allows them to reliably counter ZardX and M-Gyara, arguably the two most powerful mons in the metagame. Primarina excels as a Torrent mon due to it's bulk, meaning that when paired with substitute it is easy to get into range. A Torrent boosted Oceanic Operetta will KO most mons that don't resist it even without SpA investment. Primarina is one of the tier's most formidable water types and thus deserves rise in ranking.
Tapu Fini B+ -> A-
This one is like it's other Water/Fairy fren but it has a few different tricks up it's shell. Instead of a strong water z-move, it instead usually uses Guardian of Alola, meaning that with Brine it's going to 2HKO almost any mon without recovery, while also having the option of a Waterium-Z set although it is usually outclassed Prima. Similar to Primarina, it too has the great privilege of defeating ZardX and MGyara and also threatens the other two S-rank mons. Fini is an excellent mon similar to Primarina and should get a rise along with it.
Jumpluff A- -> B
Jumpluff has faced stiff competition from other leech seed users such as Serperior and Whimsicott in the last few months. Unlike them, Jumpluff relies too much on Sleep Powder and is extremely susceptible to all taunt users. It isn't completely outclassed as a seeder however with it's ability to defeat mons with sleep that would otherwise OHKO it and likewise should be ranked similarly to the aforementioned Serperior and Whimsicott.
Serperior B- -> B
Serperior has seen a huge rise in usage for the right reasons. Similarly to other seeders, it's very fast and can win many matchups should it live turn 1 and set up Leech Seed. It makes up for it's lack of sleep moves with it's powerful Contrary + Leaf Storm, which allows it to 2HKO most mons which don't resist it.
Haxorus B- -> B
Although it struggles versus bulkier threats, Haxorus is a beast as it can defeat many of the tiers most common threats. It's most popularly run with scarf, becoming one of the meta's fastest mons in a tier where scarf usage is uncommon. This allows it to usually OHKO Dnite, ZardX, Lele and PoryZ, along with most other frail offensive mons. Alternatively, it can run band for ludicrous damage or Poisonium to take out PrimaFini. Overall a solid KyuB-esque mon that deserves a raise in it's ability to outspeed and KO many of the meta's fast offensive threats.
Tyranitar (Base) UR -> B+
This mon functions similarly to it's mega counterpart, however it can often be seen as the superior form through it's Rockium Z sets. Even without a Rock Tomb or Dragon Dance, a Rockium-Z Stone Edge will obliterate any mon that fails to resist it. It's ability to nuke any mon that it survives against should grant it a ranking alongside it's mega form.
Gyarados (Base) UR -> S
By no means does regular Gyarados' viability compare to it's mega's. Nonetheless, it does holds the niche of being able to defeat bulky grass types in it's Flyinium-Z set that would otherwise cripple the mega.
Eelektross UT -> UR
I'm usually up for interesting mons to be tested but this mon is straight up terrible. It sits at an awful 50 base speed, which means even with timid and scarf you're getting outsped by base 100 mons. It's got an awkward attack spread in 115/105 that makes it look semi-strong but not strong enough, meaning that even if you survive T1 you'll rarely pick up a KO unless you can use a STAB super-effective electric attack. It's got some decent coverage moves like flamethrower, superpower and iron tail but everything that it could potentially kill will outspeed it and kill this poor eel instead.
Togekiss A- -> B-
Togekiss is not good. It's bizarrely ranked higher than Jirachi who is arguably a stronger version than it, albeit without fast recovery. Togekiss isn't very strong or fast unless it's given scarf. Even with scarf when it fails to get the flinch it's under huge pressure from any setup mon or physical z-move, while Z-Thunder Wave loses to any fast sub user or hyper offense mon. It's ranking should reflect it's hax-reliance and it's low ladder usage.
Gengar-Mega C+ -> B-
A mon hindered by Hypnosis' terrible accuracy, Gengar-Mega is infamous for making uncertain matchups versus almost every mon. Despite this accuracy, the power to defeat so many mons, although inconsistently, cannot be understated and should result in a rank up for Gengar-Mega.
Zeraora B+ -> A-
Zeraora saw insane usage in the recent PL and it's no wonder why. It has a blistering 143 base speed, the fastest of any popular mon outside of scarf users. Zeraora has many viable sets that it can run such as Electrium-Z, Dragonium-Z and Life Orb. Along with this there are many moves it can run, from setup moves such as Bulk Up and Charge while also having offensive coverage in Outrage and Close Combat. Zeraora can be built to defeat all of the S rank mons and has made itself a staple among the premier mons of the tier.
Magneton B+ -> C+
Not sure why Magneton is ranked this high honestly. It is said to be run over it's evolution for outspeeding M-Gyarados, but this is bizarre as EQ usage on Gyara is about 50% regardless and the speed boost isn't giving you any other important wins. The bulk and power trade for 10 more speed just doesn't justify running it over Magnezone.
I agree with all of these, lots of good ideas here and I think it really reflects whats going on.
I just wanted to add to Tyranitar; he has rockium (which is great), but he can also use Assault Vest. Combined with lots of HP and SpDef EVs plus Sand Stream gives this thing obscenely large bulk that makes stuff like greninja and magnezone do laughable damage. In fact, with all of that special bulk, the AV TTar I used lived a LaserFocus-Pixilate Hyper Beam from Mega Gardevoir. It may be an old trick but it’s undeniably a great special tank that pairs well with anything that kills Fighting types for it.
Allow me to introduce you to what may be the best Grass type mon around :
That mon has 2 modes :
1) Z-Psychic Nuke. Less potent than Mew or Lele in that regard, but still lands nice KOs, like vs Kommo-o or even Mawile (not sure) (obviously blasts MVenu into oblivion)
2) Wall things w/o investment thanks to a Z-screen + Giga Drain for sustain. Z-Reflect is pretty potent against GolDon + Carracosta, and also the Crustles w/o bug moves. Also lands the W pretty reliably vs MDos (Loses to Z-Bounce tho), Zygarde, Zeraora (even Z-outrage might not suffice) and Tyranitar.
Z-Light Screen isn't as potent as Z-Reflect as far as my test goes, mainly because most special nukes either outspeed and OHKO Celebi (Hi Gren) or actually has enough SpD + a way to boost their stats to bypass or stall the screen (While MDos gets 2HKO by Giga Drain for example). Still beats the flat magnet tho.
It also has the possibility of going physical with moves like Zen Headbutt, Seed Bomb and SD as a boosting move, but that much is untested.
Edit : Oh crap I forgot to nom it. Well, let's say B(-/ /+).
Celebi @ Psychium Z
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Reflect/Light Screen
- Giga Drain
- Laser Focus/Calm Mind/Earth Power/HP Fire/Light Screen (I even tried Nasty plot and Shadow ball here)
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Reflect/Light Screen
- Giga Drain
- Laser Focus/Calm Mind/Earth Power/HP Fire/Light Screen (I even tried Nasty plot and Shadow ball here)
That mon has 2 modes :
1) Z-Psychic Nuke. Less potent than Mew or Lele in that regard, but still lands nice KOs, like vs Kommo-o or even Mawile (not sure) (obviously blasts MVenu into oblivion)
2) Wall things w/o investment thanks to a Z-screen + Giga Drain for sustain. Z-Reflect is pretty potent against GolDon + Carracosta, and also the Crustles w/o bug moves. Also lands the W pretty reliably vs MDos (Loses to Z-Bounce tho), Zygarde, Zeraora (even Z-outrage might not suffice) and Tyranitar.
Z-Light Screen isn't as potent as Z-Reflect as far as my test goes, mainly because most special nukes either outspeed and OHKO Celebi (Hi Gren) or actually has enough SpD + a way to boost their stats to bypass or stall the screen (While MDos gets 2HKO by Giga Drain for example). Still beats the flat magnet tho.
It also has the possibility of going physical with moves like Zen Headbutt, Seed Bomb and SD as a boosting move, but that much is untested.
Edit : Oh crap I forgot to nom it. Well, let's say B(-/ /+).
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While this is neat, what does this do that can make it distinct from mew? from what I have gathered mew seems strictly better outside of the grass typing, which some people consider a downside.
3-Subject VR Post
I'm not triple posting because quote will find my home and murder me if I do
With the addition of dom the viability rankings council, I believe some changes are overdue for the VR council as a whole:
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Wait a second there. Gyarados's regular forme should not be ranked as an S tier Pokemon, especially given the reasons that you provide here. From what I'm seeing, the primary reasons you'd like to see this pokemon ranked so highly is due to its Z-Bounce set, and this:
I see what you mean here, but when it comes to matchup ratios (the ratio of gained won matchups to the number of matchups lost) Charizard-Mega-Y is significantly better than Z Bounce Gyarados. In taking Z Bounce, you simply lose too many matchups, in my opinion, for this to be ranked as S. I'd say, A/A+ at Highest.
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Looking at the C-Ranked Pokemon, there are a few nominations I’d like to make.
Rises:
Slaking: C -> C+
This pokemon has proven itself to be an effective Offensive option, being able to output damage similar to Porygon-Z, but on the Physical Side with its Choice Band set, Allowing it to beat the likes of the Charizards, Tapu Lele, Meloetta, and Mega Gardevior. This deserves a rise.
Quagsire: C- -> C+/B-
This pokemon is way too good to be ranked this lowly, and its biggest flaw is it being slightly taunt bait. “If your opponent does less than 86% on the first hit, you win.” -MaceMaster
Reuniclus: C- -> C
Although outclassed by Necrozma in a few areas, it does have Magic Guard, which allows it to beat seeders such as Whimsicott and Jumpluff, which I do believe merits it a rise.
Smeargle: C -> C+
Custap is not as bad as a thought it was. It allows it to be a good blanket check to Many Hyper Offensive Pokemon in the metagame, and it can play 50/50s with pokemon that don't attack it Turn 1.
Drop:
Gliscor: C- -> D
I struggle to see what this mon beats, and why I should run this over Landorus Therian.
Alright, expect some posts from me later on, I need to go watch season 3 of CW Supergirl and Season 5 of CW Flash (Again)
I'm not triple posting because quote will find my home and murder me if I do
With the addition of dom the viability rankings council, I believe some changes are overdue for the VR council as a whole:
- The pace at which current cycles are going on, which I believe is 2-3 months, is a bit too long for my liking; For example, a 1v1OU Pokemon such as Registeel, which has started to pick up significant traction, is still not even ranked, and won't likely be for another 2 to 3 weeks. This does not portray the metagame most adequately. I’d say the optimal amount of time within cycles should be around 6 weeks.
- The Pokemon placed in untested should be voted upon (about the subject of them staying in that rank in the case of them not being nominated to a higher rank) To prevent that rank being cluttered, if that is the right word.
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Wait a second there. Gyarados's regular forme should not be ranked as an S tier Pokemon, especially given the reasons that you provide here. From what I'm seeing, the primary reasons you'd like to see this pokemon ranked so highly is due to its Z-Bounce set, and this:
I see what you mean here, but when it comes to matchup ratios (the ratio of gained won matchups to the number of matchups lost) Charizard-Mega-Y is significantly better than Z Bounce Gyarados. In taking Z Bounce, you simply lose too many matchups, in my opinion, for this to be ranked as S. I'd say, A/A+ at Highest.
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Looking at the C-Ranked Pokemon, there are a few nominations I’d like to make.
Rises:
Slaking: C -> C+
This pokemon has proven itself to be an effective Offensive option, being able to output damage similar to Porygon-Z, but on the Physical Side with its Choice Band set, Allowing it to beat the likes of the Charizards, Tapu Lele, Meloetta, and Mega Gardevior. This deserves a rise.
Quagsire: C- -> C+/B-
This pokemon is way too good to be ranked this lowly, and its biggest flaw is it being slightly taunt bait. “If your opponent does less than 86% on the first hit, you win.” -MaceMaster
Reuniclus: C- -> C
Although outclassed by Necrozma in a few areas, it does have Magic Guard, which allows it to beat seeders such as Whimsicott and Jumpluff, which I do believe merits it a rise.
Smeargle: C -> C+
Custap is not as bad as a thought it was. It allows it to be a good blanket check to Many Hyper Offensive Pokemon in the metagame, and it can play 50/50s with pokemon that don't attack it Turn 1.
Drop:
Gliscor: C- -> D
I struggle to see what this mon beats, and why I should run this over Landorus Therian.
Alright, expect some posts from me later on, I need to go watch season 3 of CW Supergirl and Season 5 of CW Flash (Again)
The thing is that I do not believe Zard Y qualifies by itself as a S rank mon either. It lacks dimensions, and whatever mon that can tank his nuking and has Mirror coat/Metal burst just insta-wins vs it. But most of the time Zard Y wins because the opponent expects Zard X, and get blasted by a turn 1 solar beam. How is that different from Z-Bounce catching Grass type off guard ?
But most importantly, you missed my greatest argument for that nom, which is linked to the preview. Since we're nomming mons here (and not sets), imo it should be about what you can conclude from the preview.
When you see a Zard in the preview, you can expect a ZardX or a ZardY, and depending on what mega you expect the most, you pick one mon or maybe another. Just that much is playing or your win rate.
For Gyarados, the Z-Bounce set is almost entirely riding on the reputation of the mega form (also it's considered an unset by many, which actually makes it even more potent) by baiting mega-Counters (getting rid of the grass weakness, hitting grass type super effectively, and getting rid of the fairy weakness).
The point is that since you can't tell at the preview what you'll face between Z-bounce and mega, their ratings, as we rate mons, should be the same and the distinction in viability should be stated in the sets VR.
Okay this Gyarados/Charizard-Y discussion is making me laugh so I'm gonna step in. First of all this VR is for the viability of all of Pokemon's viable sets. Arguements about Charizard-Y doesnt make it a seperate pokemon and you are not the first to try to lower Charizard-Y for [Insert CharY demotion here]. There is a VR forum called Sets VR which ranks the viability of the sets that Pokemon use. Thats the forum where you discuss things such as ranking Flynium Gyarados aswell as Charizard-Y but Charizard has already been ranked as a lesser tier than its counterpart mega evolution, Charizard-X. Its cool to see all the inputs of certain Pokemon being raised for such and such but sometimes it just becomes silly and this discussion falls under these silly moments.
This post basically says "Zard X and Zard Y are obviously different sets of the same mon, but regular Zard is a different mon." without explanation for why we should believe that. You could at least say why that should be the case, but you don't really give any reasons.
EDIT: Oops, misread and thought you meant that Zard was already on the VR for some reason. My bad. But it still doesn't really give a convincing answer to "Are Zard X and Zard Y considered the same mon?"
At Team Preview, yes.
While it would be more realistic to just make it into just "Charizard", I fear that that would send the impression that base form Charizard is also viable, which it isn't.
The best compromise, in my opinion, is to treat Charizard the same way smogon analyses treats Charizard, which is keeping each viable form together. The only difference between comparing Charizard X to Charizard Y to something like Scarf Porygon-Z vs Normalium is the fact that the two megas visibly change the form of the base mon. If a Charizard's mega form were telegraphed beyond players "deducing" which mega it is, then I would be fine with ranking the two clearly distinguishable forms separately in the main VR. Until then, they will only be separated in the Sets VR, as they are nothing more than differing sets of the base Charizard.
Your telling me that endure custap blaze blast burn charizard is not deserving of S++++ rank because it beat a magerna once?
On a more serious note you do bring up something interesting, and that is the idea of weather or not the diffrent chairzards are unique mons or just diffrent set of the same mon
Aside from your reading skills, I'm glad you agree with me at least. Leave the distinction between megas/non-mega to the Sets VR discussion.
Idk why no one suggested this yet, but Garchomp B+ -> A-/Higher
I know the meme is 3-0ed by chomper, but I consistently see WC teams that are actually smashed by thsi beast.
Thing can beat or at least roll a large portion of the tier. Even "counters" like Mega Gyarados or Dragonite can lose to sub sets or Dragonium Z being able to KO through multiscale.
The reason I'm not nominating this thing to A is the rise of fast Ice Punch/Magnet Rise gross on ladder. Shits busted, yo.
I know the meme is 3-0ed by chomper, but I consistently see WC teams that are actually smashed by thsi beast.
Thing can beat or at least roll a large portion of the tier. Even "counters" like Mega Gyarados or Dragonite can lose to sub sets or Dragonium Z being able to KO through multiscale.
The reason I'm not nominating this thing to A is the rise of fast Ice Punch/Magnet Rise gross on ladder. Shits busted, yo.
This post is just going to be my opinion of a few recent nominations.
Magneton B+ => C+: Agree
Metagross-Mega A => A+: Agree
TL;DR: Because of its massive bulk, high speed, pre-mega ability in Clear Body, and the ability to run many sets due to a massive movepool, I think Metagross should rise to A+ rank, potentially even S-rank.
Calcs:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 254-300 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Haxorus B- => B/B+: Agree
Pls rank my baby higher, k? All jokes aside, this mon definitely needs a rise. It's best set, Scarf, beats many common frailer mons like PZ, Loppuny, Gren, Zeraora, and serves as a nice bait VS Fairies Like Gardevoir and Lele (brovitded it's not bulky) with Iron Tail. Like mjnay others said, It can also run CB or Z Sets, which can bait out would-be checks like Primarina or Fini With Z-Posion.
This exactly. There is no reason to use this over its fully evolved form except for the Matchup against Gyarados. And speaking of the Gyara MU, there are plenty of good mons that can beat Gyara, like Fini.
Agreed. In fact, I could even see an argument being made for M-gross to be S-Rank, due to 3 reasons. First, It has fantastic stats like you said. It's bulk allows it to tank certain SE hits without any defense/hp investment (calls below). Its Speed is also great, as it outspeeds most of the unboosted and unscarfed metagame. Secondly, I feel that Clear Body is one of the reasons Gross should rise. Don't get me wrong, Tough Claws is also a great ability, but Clear Body before Megas allows it to have a better time VS Intimidate users, which would noramaly greatly threaten a physical attacker like Gross. The Final and most important reason I feel that Gross should rise is because of its movepool that allows it to run multiple viable sets that are able to beat most S-and A-tier mons. However, like you said, it has severe 4MSS, as it likes to run Ice/Thunder Punch and EQ, when it can usually only fit 2 of those.
TL;DR: Because of its massive bulk, high speed, pre-mega ability in Clear Body, and the ability to run many sets due to a massive movepool, I think Metagross should rise to A+ rank, potentially even S-rank.
Calcs:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 254-300 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pls rank my baby higher, k? All jokes aside, this mon definitely needs a rise. It's best set, Scarf, beats many common frailer mons like PZ, Loppuny, Gren, Zeraora, and serves as a nice bait VS Fairies Like Gardevoir and Lele (brovitded it's not bulky) with Iron Tail. Like mjnay others said, It can also run CB or Z Sets, which can bait out would-be checks like Primarina or Fini With Z-Posion.
As of this post, no more nominations shall be counted for this cycle. Further nominations from this point onwards will go into the next cycle. The deadline for next cycle's nominations will be determined once the VR Council has finished voting on all the nominations.
Just doing one post this time instead of two since most people who look at the Sets VR thread is probably looking at this one, too-
Vaporeon UR > C-/higher : THIS MACHINE
Houndoom-Mega UR > UT : RunWithTheScizors
Heatran B- > A-/A : aaee
Greninja A > A+
Magneton B+ > B-
Gardevoir-Mega A- > A : : : : : : all by Kaif
Salamence C+ > B-/B
Diancie B- > B
Serperior B- >B+/higher
Golisopod UT > D/UR : by Sanctus Janus
Ampharos-Mega UT > C+
Banette-Mega UT > C- : : : all by I'm actually Cash
Cofagrigus UT > D/UR
Infernape C > C+ : by Jamez155
Porygon2 B > B- : by pqs
Registeel UR > C+/higher : by Chickenpie2 (post) and Kaif (post)
Blastoise-Mega B- > C+
Carracosta B- > B
Durant B- > C+
Haxorus B- > B
Hoopa-Unbound B- > B
Krookodile B- > B : : : : : : : : : : : all by Osra
Pheromosa B- > B
Raikou B- > C+
Scizor-Mega B- > B/higher
Serperior B- > B/higher
Zapdos B- > B/higher
Claydol UT > UR : Sanctus Janus
Trevenant UR > UT : M24
Lucario-Mega C- > B-/B : Boat (phiwings99)
Milotic UT > C : JustANoobie
Whimsicott B > A-
OR
Jumpluff A- > B : Chrispy Burns
Zeraora B+ > A-
Magneton B+ > C+
Ambipom B- > C
Type:Null B- > B : : : : : : : all by lost heros
Audino-Mega B- > C+
Durant B- > C+
Raikou B- > C+
Toxicroak UR > UT/higher : AllFourtyOne
Gyarados UR > S : JustANoobie
Metagross-Mega A > A+
Primarina B+ > A-
Tapu Fini B+ > A-
Jumpluff A- > B
Serperior B- > B
Haxorus B- > B
Tyranitar UR > B+ : : : : : : : : : : : : : all by WailJesus
Gyarados UR > S
Eelektross UT > UR
Togekiss A- > B-
Gengar-Mega C+ > B-
Zeraora B+ > A-
Magneton B+ > C+
Celebi UR -> B-/higher : JustANoobie
Slaking C > C+
Quagsire C- > C+/B-
Reuniclus C- > C : : : : : all by Pokesartoolcay
Smeargle C > C+
Gliscor C- > D
Garchomp B+ > A- : Synonimous
Houndoom-Mega UR > UT : RunWithTheScizors
Heatran B- > A-/A : aaee
Greninja A > A+
Magneton B+ > B-
Gardevoir-Mega A- > A : : : : : : all by Kaif
Salamence C+ > B-/B
Diancie B- > B
Serperior B- >B+/higher
Golisopod UT > D/UR : by Sanctus Janus
Ampharos-Mega UT > C+
Banette-Mega UT > C- : : : all by I'm actually Cash
Cofagrigus UT > D/UR
Infernape C > C+ : by Jamez155
Porygon2 B > B- : by pqs
Registeel UR > C+/higher : by Chickenpie2 (post) and Kaif (post)
Blastoise-Mega B- > C+
Carracosta B- > B
Durant B- > C+
Haxorus B- > B
Hoopa-Unbound B- > B
Krookodile B- > B : : : : : : : : : : : all by Osra
Pheromosa B- > B
Raikou B- > C+
Scizor-Mega B- > B/higher
Serperior B- > B/higher
Zapdos B- > B/higher
Claydol UT > UR : Sanctus Janus
Trevenant UR > UT : M24
Lucario-Mega C- > B-/B : Boat (phiwings99)
Milotic UT > C : JustANoobie
Whimsicott B > A-
OR
Jumpluff A- > B : Chrispy Burns
Zeraora B+ > A-
Magneton B+ > C+
Ambipom B- > C
Type:Null B- > B : : : : : : : all by lost heros
Audino-Mega B- > C+
Durant B- > C+
Raikou B- > C+
Toxicroak UR > UT/higher : AllFourtyOne
Gyarados UR > S : JustANoobie
Metagross-Mega A > A+
Primarina B+ > A-
Tapu Fini B+ > A-
Jumpluff A- > B
Serperior B- > B
Haxorus B- > B
Tyranitar UR > B+ : : : : : : : : : : : : : all by WailJesus
Gyarados UR > S
Eelektross UT > UR
Togekiss A- > B-
Gengar-Mega C+ > B-
Zeraora B+ > A-
Magneton B+ > C+
Celebi UR -> B-/higher : JustANoobie
Slaking C > C+
Quagsire C- > C+/B-
Reuniclus C- > C : : : : : all by Pokesartoolcay
Smeargle C > C+
Gliscor C- > D
Garchomp B+ > A- : Synonimous
let me know if I missed any nominations-
I would like to retract my nomination regarding golisopod, as I do not think i have given it enough time
The Viability Rankings have been updated!
With this update comes a few announcements:
- Untested Rank has been removed completely, on account of its lacking utility
- S- Rank has been added, for the Pokemon that are just too good for A+, yet commonly contested for their placement in S
- Megas have been split from their base forms (or alternate Megas, in Charizard's case), and now have separate VR entries
- The VR now operates on 1 month cycles (approximately when new usage stats come out)
With that said, here is the document we used for voting, with any changes colored accordingly:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OL818aGaKCMoe98jR75bMQsZFIHnOh84oCzlaFxkkXo/edit?usp=sharing
edit: linked the wrong document, oops-
The deadline for next cycle's nominations is approximately September 2nd!
With this update comes a few announcements:
- Untested Rank has been removed completely, on account of its lacking utility
- S- Rank has been added, for the Pokemon that are just too good for A+, yet commonly contested for their placement in S
- Megas have been split from their base forms (or alternate Megas, in Charizard's case), and now have separate VR entries
- The VR now operates on 1 month cycles (approximately when new usage stats come out)
With that said, here is the document we used for voting, with any changes colored accordingly:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OL818aGaKCMoe98jR75bMQsZFIHnOh84oCzlaFxkkXo/edit?usp=sharing
edit: linked the wrong document, oops-
The deadline for next cycle's nominations is approximately September 2nd!
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Nomming Tyranitar From C- to C+/higher
Set:
Tyranitar @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Screech
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge (Attack and HP evs can be adjusted)
Sand stream allows tyranitar to boost its spd, making it quite bulky, allowing it to tank many spa moves and hit back hard with a z move
Some of the big threats tyranitar can beat in 1v1 are
Charizard Mega X and Y
Dragonite
Porygon Z
Tapu lele
Magnezone
Meloetta
Mew
Aegislash
Zeraora
Heatran
Togekiss
Victini
Clefable
And more
Set:
Tyranitar @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Screech
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge (Attack and HP evs can be adjusted)
Sand stream allows tyranitar to boost its spd, making it quite bulky, allowing it to tank many spa moves and hit back hard with a z move
Some of the big threats tyranitar can beat in 1v1 are
Charizard Mega X and Y
Dragonite
Porygon Z
Tapu lele
Magnezone
Meloetta
Mew
Aegislash
Zeraora
Heatran
Togekiss
Victini
Clefable
And more
I never agreed with everyone who said the council was bad but seeing delphox get c- has to be the biggest joke I have literally ever seen in my 8 years on PS
Heatran B+ to A-
Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
Evs: 252 SpAtk/80 SpDef/176 Spe
Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Flash Cannon
- Rock Tomb
- Earth Power/ Taunt
Despite it's obviousness, I adore this set. I've had multiple teams where this feels like the mvp once I reach around 1600 elo. The EVs beat Magnezone, outspeeding all but nearly fully Speed invested timid Zones and never dying to non-modest Z-Zap Cannons (modest is a roll). Honestly though there's probably better EV spreads as Heatrans great bulk and decent speed with rock tomb give it a lot of flexibility. Modest with Max SpAtk is advisable but everything else is up to you. This mon has some great matchups no matter which option you pick between EP and Taunt. EP means you beat Zard X (tomb beats Y either way), other trans and a few other things while taunt gives you an amazing matchup against the RegiSerp cores which are quite common on ladder rn. On that topic, Tran makes a really good alternative to Registeel in an admittedly less catchy SerpTran core, a core that isn't totally wrecked by fire types which is nice when Zard X is one of the best mons around.
Matchups:
Like most high ranked mons it's got a generally positive matchup spread, but the reason that I believe it deserves a rise is the fact that it beats almost everything else in B+. It can also run a few different Z- Crystals to good effect but I don't have much experience with them so I'll leave others to make the case for those sets. So instead of doing that I'm going to completely discredit myself by bringing up some God awful Lure sets.S Rank
Charizard-Mega-X - Win if EP
Dragonite - lose unless no EQ/Hydro on special sets
Gyarados-Mega- Lose
S- Rank
Magearna - Win
A+ Rank
Charizard-Mega-Y - Win
Greninja - Lose
Metagross-Mega - Win unless sub
Porygon-Z - Mostly win, can struggle with Conversion/Sub sets
Tapu Lele- Win
A Rank
Gardevoir-Mega - Win if no focus blast
Magnezone - Mostly Win
Meloetta - Win if no Focus blast
Mew - Win if no EP (sometimes used instead of Overheat)
Slowbro-Mega - Lose
Zygarde-Complete - Hard Lose
A- Rank
Aegislash - Win
Kommo-o - Lose
Landorus-Therian - Lose unless scarf without Superpower though Overheat has a low chance of killing bulkless variants. Call it a mostly lose
Tapu Fini - Lose
Zeraora - Mostly lose
B+ Rank
Altaria-Mega - Mostly lose
Celesteela- Win
Clefable- Win
Donphan- Win (tomb to overheat Kos)
Garchomp - Lose unless scarf without fling
Genesect - Win
Heatran - Beats non balloon sets or slower balloon sets
Jumpluff - Win if taunt (and don't get totally wrecked by sleep turns)
Mawile-Mega- Win
Primarina - Win
Sableye-Mega - Win
Serperior - Win if taunt or they're using screens
Togekiss- Win
Tyranitar-Mega - Lose
Venusaur-Mega - Win if Taunt
Victini -Mostly Win if EP (loses to band)
B Rank
Crustle - Lose unless they have very little speed investment
Ferrothorn - Win
Hoopa-Unbound - Lose
Incineroar - Win if EP and potentially even if not
Jirachi - Win
Kartana- Win
Lopunny-Mega - Win
Naganadel - Win
Necrozma - Win if taunt
Pheromosa - Lose
Pinsir-Mega - Win if EQ lose if CC
Porygon2 - Win if taunt
Registeel - Win if taunt
Sawk - Lose
Scizor-Mega - Win
Type: Null - Win if taunt
Volcarona - Win
Whimsicott - Win if taunt (can win without it but if they're babiri berry they can use sub mind games to win)
B- Rank
Aggron - Win
Archeops - Lose (you need unreal investment to live a head smash)
Blaziken-Mega - Lose
Camerupt-Mega - Win
Carracosta - Lose
Deoxys-S - Win if taunt
Diancie-Mega - Win
Golem - Win
Haxorus - Lose unless scarf without Superpower
Krookodile - Lose (maybe win? Never faced Krook with tran so idk)
Kyurem - Lose if they have Glaciate plus EP
Latias-Mega - Win (I think, what sets do these run nowadays?)
Magneton - Mostly win
Manaphy - Lose
Medicham-Mega - Lose
Swampert-Mega - Lose
Tapu Bulu - Win
Vivillon - Win if you don't get bodied by sleep turns
Zapdos - Never faced this on ladder I have no idea lmfao
C+ Rank
Aggron - Win
Ambipom - Win
Araquanid - Lose
Audino-Mega - Win
Avalugg - Win
Blacephalon - Win
Blissey - Mostly lose
Chansey - Mostly lose
Durant - Lose to band Superpower win otherwise
Emboar - Lose
Entei - Win
Gallade-Mega - Mostly lose
Gengar-Mega - It's hax dependant what a surprise
Gigalith- Win
Gyarados - Lose
Heracross-Mega - Win
Latios -Win
Nihilego - Win
Quagsire - Mostly lose
Raikou - Mostly lose
Regice - Mostly win
Rotom-Heat - Lose
Salamence - Beats Outrage, DDance, IDefense, Roost and scarf variants
Scolipede - Win
Scrafty - Lose
Skarmory - Win
Slaking - Win if no fighting move
Steelix-Mega - Win
Terrakion - Lose
Umbreon - Win if taunt
Xurkitree - Lose
C Rank
Aerodactyl-Mega - Win
Blastoise-Mega - Lose
Blaziken - Lose
Buzzwole - Lose
Celebi - Win
Crobat - Win (???)
Darmanitan - Win if no Superpower (or if it's endure custap Zen Mode rofl)
Diggersby - Lose
Empoleon - Lose
Excadrill - Win
Garchomp-Mega - Lose unless it's only attacks are EQ and Outrage
Infernape - Lose unless mixed mono fire stab
Keldeo - Lose
Lucario-Mega - Lose
Lycanroc-Dusk - Win
Marowak-Alola - mostly win
Milotic - Lose
Pidgeot-Mega - Win
Pyukumuku - Win if taunt
Rhyperior - Win
Rotom-Wash - Lose
Smeargle - Lose
Talonflame - Win
Thundurus - Lose
Thundurus-Therian - Lose
Volcanion - Lose
C- Rank
Alakazam - Win
Alakazam-Mega - Lose if focus blast
Azumarill - Lose
Delphox - Win
Hydreigon - mostly Win
Illumise - Win if taunt
Landorus - Lose
Muk-Alola - Win if EP
Ninetales-Alola - Win
Reuniclus - Win if taunt
Salazzle - Win
Sceptile-Mega - Win
Staraptor - Lose to band CC
Suicune - Lose
Trevenant - Win
Tyranitar - Lose
Vaporeon - Lose
Weavile - Win
D Rank
Abomasnow-Mega - Win
Ampharos-Mega - Win
Arcanine - Win
Aron - Lose
Bellossom - Win
Breloom - Lose
Chandelure - Win
Chesnaught - Win
Cloyster - Mostly win
Dhelmise - Win
Gliscor - Lose
Hawlucha - Lose
Lilligant - Win
Mamoswine - Win
Rampardos - Win
Relicanth - Mostly lose
Riolu - Win
Roserade - Win
Rotom-Mow - Win
Sceptile - Win
Shedinja - Win
Stakataka - Win
Sylveon - Win
Togedemaru - Win
FORBIDDEN HEATRAN SETS
Chople berry Heatran: Beats Mega Lop, Pheromosa, Buzzwole, Most fighting types and things that need Focus Blast/Superpower/CC to kill it. Loses to literally anything with Earthquake or Earth Power.
Torment Tran: Uses Overheat, Torment, Protect and HP ice or grass. Lures most ground types but also anything that can only kill it with Ground coverage. Balloon let's you get off a torment and then play protect mind games chunking them with you're choice of HP. Ice beats Landos, ground dragons and Dnite, grass is worse but is better against MGyara and Pert that run EQ with Outrage/Ice Punch respectively
These lures are obviously worse than the standard sets but do work as lures.
TL;DR - Heatran is great for all the reasons listed above, put it in A-
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I don't have a problem with the nom, I just wanted to tell you banded Victini with Bolt Strike actually wins (or if you're cool you go z magic coat tini)
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 185-218 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Heatran Rock Tomb vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Victini: 72-86 (17.9 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 214-254 (53.3 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Loses to Metagross if sub or hammer arm, you don’t actually beat altaria, they just like don’t mega and Cotton guard and confide, You’re not rly beating kyurem they run glaciate now, you hella lose to breloom, togedemaru, mega zam, Rampardos, staraptor, rhyperior, muk-a (no matter what), lycanroc, gigalith, entei, aggron, Audino, vivilon, zapdos, latias, deos, Camerupt, necroza, sableye, primarina, donphan, clefable, meloetta
Do a little more research and don’t guess your matchups
It’s fine as is
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- Status