Serious 2020 Democratic Candidates Discussion

Who are your favorite candidates?

  • Kamala Harris

    Votes: 29 22.3%
  • Elizabeth Warren

    Votes: 36 27.7%
  • Julián Castro

    Votes: 5 3.8%
  • Pete Buttigieg

    Votes: 9 6.9%
  • Kirsten Gillibrand

    Votes: 5 3.8%
  • John Delaney

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • Tulsi Gabbard

    Votes: 15 11.5%
  • Bernie Sanders

    Votes: 90 69.2%
  • Amy Klobuchar

    Votes: 3 2.3%

  • Total voters
    130

Chou Toshio

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Neoliberal economist and former Clinton treasury staffer says “Neoliberalism has failed, it’s time to pass the baton to the left.”


He’s mostly making a political argument that with a Republican Party that is completely unwilling to partner with essentially right-wing Democrats like Obama, making market/neoliberal policies that will work is impossible. The Social Democrat/Democratic Socialist Left, even at its most radical, is pushing ideas far less destructive than Trump and the Republicans, so moderate Dems will serve the country better by letting the left lead the party to Democratic governance while tinkering/working on policy details in the background.


Let’s be clear though— the neoliberals were not only wrong on politics; but also wrong on policy. Even if there were no Republican votes for the ACA, it’s still failing. Even though Republicans gave Clinton the middle finger, Clinton’s removing Glass Steagall still allowed wallstreet to destroy the economy. Neoliberalism failed on all fronts.

But whatever; if my parents are happy to sit in the back seat I don’t care if they’re bitching about the AC setting.
 

fanyfan

i once put 42 mcdonalds chicken nuggets in my anus
I’ve seen this sentiment a lot so I’ll say this. The sentiment is people saying “I want whoever can beat Trump.” Well, here I’ll tell you who can; the guy who would have beat him in 2016. The guy who gets the base excited instead of spitting in their face. The guys who talks honestly and about policy. Bernie Sanders.

I’ll tell you also who can’t beat Trump. Any neoliberal/centrist/fake progressive democrat. So that’s Joe Biden, Amy Klobuchar, Cory Booker, Kamala Harris, John Hickenlooper, and, even though I hate to admit it, Elizabeth Warren. Any of them will do exactly how Clinton did in 2016, likely worse (though of course I would vote for any of them in the general since all are better to some extent then Trump), because Trump’s the incumbent now. Trump is going to be harder to beat now then in 2016 due to his incumbent status and popularity among his base. We can’t just nominate any old democrat. We have to go with the guy that has by far the highest chance to beat Trump. So please, if you care about beating Trump in 2020, support Bernie 2020.
 

Myzozoa

go backwards from the end, a reverse outline
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not to continue to hash this, but it is kind of neoliberal imo to appropriate indigenous identities to get academic titles or w.e Warren continues to do and has done

i am not invested in only accepting 'authentic' 'hard left' politicians, but i dont think it is unfair to call Warren a neoliberal. it is possibly unfair to dismiss Warren based on such a labelling I will admit, since her platform has leftist overtures.
 
Any neoliberal/centrist/fake progressive democrat. So that’s Amy Klobuchar, Cory Booker, Kamala Harris, and, even though I hate to admit it, Elizabeth Warren.

Can you explain why you think each of those are somehow centrist or "fake progressive" (lmao)?

And please enlighten me on how Bernie is a sure-fire win. Forgetting for a second about your/my opinions on him as a candidate, many people would argue that he's by far the riskiest choice for a number of reasons. It's telling that (despite his name recognition and insane lack of scrutiny so far) he has been consistently crushed in the polls by a guy who hasn't even announced his candidacy.
 
institutional structures that make any significant (leftward) change impossible mean choosing a candidate is simply Aesthetics. everyone knows this, so appeals are premised on the person making them rather than what they say theyre going to do. it's meaningless theater with a hardright majority on the supreme court and a filibuster thats not going away. i feel pleased to live in this wretched oligarchy that has killed the world. that being said dont vote for kamala harris or klobuchar because going down with a woke cop at the helm is the least dignified of all outcomes.
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As a non-American I'd appreciate it being explained to me why Kamala Harris is undesirable to the "far-leftist-range-of-which-I-identify-with"? On the surface she seems like her positions, while not as far reaching as other candidates, are reasonable enough as to be supported by my ideology. regardless of her prosecution stances in the past.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Can you explain why you think each of those are somehow centrist or "fake progressive" (lmao)?

And please enlighten me on how Bernie is a sure-fire win. Forgetting for a second about your/my opinions on him as a candidate, many people would argue that he's by far the riskiest choice for a number of reasons. It's telling that (despite his name recognition and insane lack of scrutiny so far) he has been consistently crushed in the polls by a guy who hasn't even announced his candidacy.
They're fauxgressives because they're only supporting a left wing platform now that it's politically expedient in the case of Booker and Harris. Booker is bought by big pharma and Harris was not progressive as AG of California. Cloud boot jar openly campaigns as a moderate. Warren is not a neoliberal.

Your second paragraph is incomprehensibly bad. Literally all the polling in 2016 showed Sanders with s way bigger lead over Trump than Hillary yet the electability pundits managed to ignore those and assume just because Bernie is further left that he automatically has worse chances in a general. He's not at all been getting crushed in the polls, and if you're using that as an argument, he and Biden lap the rest of the candidates, so you can only use that as a pro Biden argument. But last time Bernie team he created a gigantic movement and probably would be president if not for the corrupt DNC while Biden shat the bed in his previous runs.
 

Chou Toshio

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As a non-American I'd appreciate it being explained to me why Kamala Harris is undesirable to the "far-leftist-range-of-which-I-identify-with"? On the surface she seems like her positions, while not as far reaching as other candidates, are reasonable enough as to be supported by my ideology. regardless of her prosecution stances in the past.
I think the bigger issue is her willingness to meet with rich donors and abide the establishment leadership. Also even in substance it’s clear that she lacks real commitment to the platform she puts forth— so easily (pathetically) back-walking Medicare for All (not to mention being incompetent at explaining how single payer works...), her statement on Ilhan Omar was lame, not taking a progressive stance on Venezuela or foreign policy in general...


But I mean, the biggest problem with Kamala and most of the candidates is that they aren’t really demanding a mandate for radical change when we need radical change.
 

Chou Toshio

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Also did anyone know that Beto O’Rourke was ranked SECOND in fossil fuel donations in the legislature???

Ted Cruz is the ONLY ONE who takes more big oil money than O’Rourke. He’s the only Dem in the top 5, one of 2 Dems in the top 20. I know he’s from Texas but that is INSANE.
 

DetroitLolcat

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As a non-American I'd appreciate it being explained to me why Kamala Harris is undesirable to the "far-leftist-range-of-which-I-identify-with"? On the surface she seems like her positions, while not as far reaching as other candidates, are reasonable enough as to be supported by my ideology. regardless of her prosecution stances in the past.
Her policy positions are decent enough. The issue is that she's also going to be in charge of the Justice Department and the Federal Bureau of Prisons if she's elected. Given her record on prisoner abuse and prosecutorial misconduct, there's reason to fear how her Justice Department will act if she's President.

Furthermore, there's the issue of trustworthiness. Sure, she's running on a progressive platform. But she was a conservative Attorney General up until 2017. Will President Harris be the Medicare-for-All champion she claims to be now, or will she be the person who specifically cut transgender health care in CA's prisons earlier this decade? Will she follow up on her promise to abolish the death penalty, or will she continue to defend it in court as she did four years ago? Will she promote racial healing and confront white supremacy in the justice system, or will she fight against policing reform as she did in California?

The answer is "I don't know." And "I don't know" isn't good enough. Someone who was basically full-on "Police Lives Matter" until 2017 doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.

Also, re: Beto. Beto O'Rourke literally doesn't know what clean energy is. Look at this idiocy:

165429


I'm not interested in wasting four of the twelve years we have left to save the planet on this joker.

Also, y'all. Words have meanings. Elizabeth Warren is not a neoliberal. You can - and should - criticize her for spending seventy years LARPing a woman of color but her policies and record are not neoliberal in the slightest.
 
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Chou Toshio

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Can you explain why you think each of those are somehow centrist or "fake progressive" (lmao)?

And please enlighten me on how Bernie is a sure-fire win. Forgetting for a second about your/my opinions on him as a candidate, many people would argue that he's by far the riskiest choice for a number of reasons. It's telling that (despite his name recognition and insane lack of scrutiny so far) he has been consistently crushed in the polls by a guy who hasn't even announced his candidacy.
People have already done a great job in this thread explaining how all of those candidates are not progressive so skipping.

Bernie is the strongest because he has (1) Universal Name Recognition AND Universal Platform Recognition (2) The most boots on the ground, the most robust 50 state infrastructure-- a network of support from Our Revolution, Unions, and progressive organizations like Justice Democrats, Sunrise, DSA, etc. (3) That infrastructure comes with the most dedicated base that will put in the most work (4) He outstrips all his corporate competition at the ability to raise funds (5) Tons and tons of organic/earned attention both because his supporters have the loudest voices (making content all over the internet...) and his critics from the mainstream media are the loudest too (which in turn fires up the base more)-- this is massive in marketing terms, because Organic/Earned >>>>>> Paid in terms of engagement and conversion-- this is essentially how Trump won in 2020-- not to mention the biggest social media following. (6) The most reliable, trustworthy record. The whole last few pages has been all about whether a candidate is trustworthy or not; and every candidate in the race is a (???) except for Bernie in terms of what their real agenda is. Bernie being a known quantity is part of his strength-- while every other candidate will be fighting to keep loyalty from their supporters, Bernie's is pretty rock solid, because Bernie's doesn't trust anyone else. (7) He's the most popular public servant in the country. This helps massively in a crowded field.

I could go on, but that's enough.

As to why Biden is running higher-- it's because Bernie is a known quantity and those who know he is in their economic disinterest, or simply aren't comfortable with him have a solidified opinion reflecting in the polling and his disapproval ratings. Biden has been off the radar and people kind of forgotten who he is. Bernie's approval/disapproval ratings are largely based on substance; Biden's approval/disapproval is largely nostalgia.

But when they start digging... that he was a writer for the crime bill, a writer for the patriot act, a writer for the bankruptcy bill, that he voted for NAFTA, voted to eliminate Glass Steagall, voted for the Iraq war, he was the candidate of credit card companies, he was against busing integration... that his legislative history is directly connected to our bloated prison population and broken criminal justice system, NSA spying and lost constitutional liberty, the credit card and student loan debt crises, the deregulation of wallstreet and 2008 crash, the towns falling to ruin from lost manufacturing jobs, and the sons and daughters who never came home from our endless wars...

...Joe Biden has been on the wrong side of history at every point in modern history (where Bernie was almost always on the right side of it), and has been a key player in politics that has been more devastating for the American people on an order of magnitude greater than the entire Trump presidency.

JOE BIDEN'S POLICY RECORD IS TO THE RIGHT OF TRUMP, and pretty significantly so. The politician who's position record correlates most closely with Biden's is Ronald Reagan.

We are looking at the most politically engaged era in generations and truly fired up progressive wing. The Democratic voters have 70-90+ approval for Medicare for All, A Green New Deal, Raising the Minimum Wage, Free College Tuition, etc. Biden's candidacy has zero chance of victory just based on substance before you get to the fact that he's an awful campaigner who has started strong and crashed and burned out twice on the Presidential campaign trail already.




Think of it this way-- Bernie is polling on an entirely different level from Kamala Harris etc. even when all his enemies know exactly who he is and why they dislike him; when the haters have already reached maximum hatred for him.
 
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fanyfan

i once put 42 mcdonalds chicken nuggets in my anus
Ok to clarify, I don’t think Warren is a neoliberal. What I meant is that, she’s certainly done a lot of establishment-type things. Backing off Medicare for All, saying she will take corporate money in the general, and having a pretty big blind spot on foreign policy. On non-policy related criticisms, the Native American thing was bad, she’s been trying to appeal to “the kids” and it’s hilariously failing, and the big one, she didn’t endorse Bernie in 2016. I just don’t feel like she’d deliver the progressive change we need if this early on she’s backing away from crucial things in her campaign, if she beats Trump at all.

Beto is just another centrist. I liked him when he was up against Cruz, but he takes too much fossil fuel money and doesn’t have a very good voting record. I have a feeling he won’t make it that far.

As others have said, Kamala was only a progressive when it was politically helpful to do so. I’m getting Obama vibes from her, like she won’t really change anything. Plus, there’s her record as AG. Cory Booker is a similar deal. Ok I gotta go now, but this thread is really good guys! Nice, open discussion. Bernie 2020
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Gotta love all the people whose second or third choice is Tulsi Gabbard implying all the other politicians are only doing things cause it’s politically expedient. Also enjoy the comments that clearly don’t understand how polling works “Bernie’s polling on a whole ‘nother level from Kamala in spite of more people knowing who he is!” (Literally one of the main reasons he’s polling better).

Older source, but still source.
 
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fanyfan

i once put 42 mcdonalds chicken nuggets in my anus
Gotta love all the people whose second or third choice is Tulsi Gabbard implying all the other politicians are only doing things cause it’s politically expedient. Also enjoy the comments that clearly don’t understand how polling works “Bernie’s polling on a whole ‘nother level from Kamala in spite of more people knowing who he is!” (Literally one of the main reasons he’s polling better).

Older source, but still source.
Yeah, the polls rn don’t mean anything b/c it’s all name recognition at this point anyway. I’d have to ask you though; what is Tulsi Gabbard doing that’s just politically expedient? She’s stuck to the same values since 2012, while people like Kamala or Booker have been “progressive” since like 2016 when Bernie made those idea popular.
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Yeah, the polls rn don’t mean anything b/c it’s all name recognition at this point anyway. I’d have to ask you though; what is Tulsi Gabbard doing that’s just politically expedient? She’s stuck to the same values since 2012, while people like Kamala or Booker have been “progressive” since like 2016 when Bernie made those idea popular.
People itt have been upset that she has been called homophobic because “she has changed her personal views.” Problem is her old personal views weren’t just anti marriage, they were pro conversion therapy. She still goes to the same church which holds the same beliefs, so she’s probably still donating to an organization that supports conversion therapy. But saying that isn’t politically expedient anymore I guess.
 

Chou Toshio

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People itt have been upset that she has been called homophobic because “she has changed her personal views.” Problem is her old personal views weren’t just anti marriage, they were pro conversion therapy. She still goes to the same church which holds the same beliefs, so she’s probably still donating to an organization that supports conversion therapy. But saying that isn’t politically expedient anymore I guess.
I don’t need her to beat Kamala and O’Rourke or win the lgbtq vote—

I just need her to get on stage and raise her issue— revealing to the American people how much most of the stage is obedient to the military industrial complex.

I just need her to endorse Bernie and campaign for him to bring with her a massive swing of Trump voters and independents who already favored Bernie over Hillary but are now are even more excited about Tulsi (and Yang really) than even Trump.

Enmity to the establishment is what puts her at #2 over Yang in my list— enmity to the establishment with unwavering courage is perhaps the most valued quality I see in a candidate.

Even to those on the left very critical of her I say— you should acknowledge that she is a big hidden key in Bernie’s path to victory.
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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I don’t need her to beat Kamala and O’Rourke or win the lgbtq vote—

I just need her to get on stage and raise her issue— revealing to the American people how much most of the stage is obedient to the military industrial complex.

I just need her to endorse Bernie and campaign for him to bring with her a massive swing of Trump voters and independents who already favored Bernie over Hillary but are now are even more excited about Tulsi (and Yang really) than even Trump.

Enmity to the establishment is what puts her at #2 over Yang in my list— enmity to the establishment with unwavering courage is perhaps the most valued quality I see in a candidate.

Even to those on the left very critical of her I say— you should acknowledge that she is a big hidden key in Bernie’s path to victory.
Why quote my post if you aren’t responding to it.
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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I thought you were making a broad post about "Why support Tulsi?"
No my point was that it’s a tad hypocritical to say certain people only changed viewpoints because it’s politically expedient to do so, which disqualifies them, then support Tulsi. I was also trying to say I don’t necessarily think changing view points because it’s politically expedient is always a bad thing (though I didn’t put it very well).
 

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