Metagame 350 Cup [Leader's Choice]

So 350 cup is a cool metagame that I've had fun building and then playing some games for recently, even if Pawniard and Cranidos have been a huge pain in the ass for me to deal with. My advice for this is to run enough speed to outspeed max speed Pawniard, or around 96+ EVs for base 140s, if they're defensive, as 96+ allows for outspeeding Pawniard, and conveniently gets Cranidos too. Unfortunately, Vibrava is the only pokemon I can think of that would care for outspeeding both. Regardless, Vibrava can handle having more speed to deal with Pawniard, since it doesn't see a significant drop in bulk compared to 252 HP / 252+ Def bulk.


Vibrava @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn / Toxic
- Roost
- Defog
- Earthquake

That being said, I think Vibrava is a great pokemon in the current metagame. It's a nice Groudon-Primal check, and checks Cranidos decently enough without Sheer Force Ice Beam or Blizzard sets (which, I think, are fairly bad moves to be running on Cranidos, as much as they deal with Ground-types, I think Cranidos would mostly be clicking other moves, which it would prefer investment so it can seriously dent resists.) It also deals with Pawniard decently enough, and can overall help with Defogging hazards, as I found it to be rather sturdy in the face of common hazard setters.

On the subject of Pawniard and Cranidos, though, I think something should be done about them, preferably having them be banned from 350 Cup. They are honestly oppressive, and often, if I find that I misplayed and let Pawniard set up for free, it just wins (barring some serious misplays on the Pawniard player's side). As for Cranidos, I find that while I rely on outspeeding it to beat it (I think that Scarf sets aren't that great, and Band or Life Orb sets are better), if it comes in versus something that I don't want to eat a hit from Cranidos, I often find myself hoping it doesn't do enough damage on my physical checks, and trying to KO it before it can do much damage. Pawniard and Cranidos together are a devasting combo, as they can both restrict Defog usage, and put stress on a lot of physical checks. I think the best choice of plan to go around them is to ban them.
 

Ransei

Guardian of Wonder
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Moderator

Pawniard

The OM Moderation team has decided to quickban Pawniard from 350 Cup. It has proven to be well broken in the metagame with its STABs, Defiant ability, set up + priority moves, and an overwhelming high stat combination to support everything it needs. There are hardly any real switchins or great proper checks for it and from the OM community's responses, it's been made clear that nobody is really denying Pawniard's sheer devastation in the metagame.

Here's an example replay from me displaying Pawniard in action:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7350cup-989018659
 
I never contribute to these but I wanna share some of the sets I've been using because this meta lets me get WEIRD w it.


Cubone @ Thick Club
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Rock Tomb
- Substitute

This lil' dude rocks out w 190 def and can eat physical hits from anything. Hits close to 700 atk before SD, so nothing really wants to take an EQ. SD + Sub are nice situationally.

Oddish @ Black Sludge
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sleep Powder

Didn't see my homie oddish on the tier lists for the meta. Strength sap is always good to have, fires off strong sludge bombs for either SE damage or getting chip poisons on things switching in. HP Fire deals w steels + esp ferro. Sleep powder puts switch ins to sleep

Trapinch @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Quick Attack
- Rock Slide
- Crunch

Maaannnnnnn who needs Vibrava. Is this set janky af? Yes. Does Trapinch have 200 Atk and priority? Also yes. Good for living most single special hits.

Sewaddle @ Lum Berry
Ability: Overcoat
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Sticky Web
- Magic Coat
- Seed Bomb
- Toxic

My favorite webs setter by a mile

Woobat @ Normalium Z
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Heat Wave
- Flash

THE UNSET. I won't even pretend that Z-Flash is good, it's just really funny to pull out mid-battle. The +Evasion boost also helps with the Stored Power bp
 
With pawniard officially gone, there's a couple threats you'll need to be preparing extra for:

- Slowpoke
Undeniably the strongest physical tank the meta has, outclassing its own evolution's mega by far, Slowpoke's only real issue is 4 move slot syndrome and scald being relatively weak. It dies to an OHKO by +4 Primal Groudon, or a 2HKO by +2 Primal Groudon, and Rock Slide Crani puts it in a dangerous spot after SR. Other than these, there's very few mons that threaten slowpoke without relying on super effective hits.

As such I am here to offer a solution, which I've seen used to great effect:
Doduo.

Our little bird friend has an insane ATK stat, we've seen what kind of damage 170 can do, but he's hampered by terrible (and I mean terrible) abilities.
Sure, Early bird is the best among them, but that's not saying much.
However, Doduo has an amazing moveset to work with:

Doduo @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Jump Kick/Roost/Knock Off
- Brave Bird
- Return/Roost/Knock Off

+2 252 Atk Doduo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 310-366 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Doduo Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 244-288 (43.2 - 51%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Doduo Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 454-535 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Doduo, much like Pdon and Pawniard, can easily set up Swords Dance against stall once it comes in, and deals with Stall in a very easy fashion, as most mons used on stall have nothing against it:

- Grimer Alola dies to +2 bb
- Foongus
- Slowpoke calcs above
-
+2 252 Atk Doduo Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spritzee: 481-567 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-
+2 252 Atk Doduo Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Groudon-Primal: 441-519 (109.1 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In short, Doduo is a really nice mon that is sadly not used enough because its offensive power is quality :)
 
Man, people are really sleeping on Cubone's strengths as a Stealth Rock user.

A Bone to Pick
Cubone @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Knock Off

Cubone is one of the most unique Stealth Rock users available, as it's able to scare off most available Defoggers in the tier with its appearance alone. Earthquake is its STAB move of choice, although Bonemerang is also a viable option to break past Substitutes and deal roughly the same damage at the cost of some reliability. Double-Edge allows Cubone to deal fatal damage to most switchins that want to come in on Earthquake and may try to remove hazards, and it provides zero recoil damage with Rock Head. Knock Off lets Cubone cripple incoming walls like Bronzor, Hippopotas, and Slowpoke that may try to withstand its onslaught by removing their Leftovers.

There are other moves that can be run over the last two slots. Rock Tomb is also an option to slow down incoming threats so that Cubone or its teammates can kill or more easily dispose of them. Swords Dance is also an option that lets you devastate Pokemon that would otherwise survive the 2HKO like Clefairy or Slowpoke and open up gaping holes in the opponent's defenses. Toxic is also a suitable option to punish the prime walls that want to test their luck. Also, a friendly reminder change Cubone's ability from Rock Head to Battle Armor if you ever wish to replace Double-Edge as one of the last attacks.

The EVs maximize Cubone's bulk while capitalizing on its monstrous Attack stat, while the minor Speed investment lets Cubone creep past Clefairy and smack it for half of its health before it can think of doing anything. If bulk is not of much concern, trading some HP EVs for Speed is possible. 60 Speed EVs is enough to pass uninvested Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Heatran, 84 Speed EVs allows Cubone to hit Frillish first, while 164 Speed EVs let it creep past Mareanie and uninvested Ho-Oh or Primal-Groudon and snipe them before they can threaten back.

Cubone's bulk is honestly not that bad, especially with its high Defense stat, so treating it as a tank is a perfect role for it. Even though its Speed is lacking, it's not so bad that it's fully detrimental to Cubone's success, as it can still outspeed very real threats like Grimer-Alola and Spritzee without investment, and can creep past significant threats like Clefairy or others with a bit of effort put in. The secret to this set's success is that very few Pokemon will actually want to stay in to remove Cubone's hazards. In fact, the only popular hazard removers that has a positive matchup against Cubone are Staryu and Snivy, who outspeed and strike it down with their respective STAB attacks. While other hazard removers like Piplup, Finneon, Bergmite, Delibird and Squirtle have decent matchups against this set, none of them are particularly common due to inherent flaws that they have. Of course, it needs support from the likes of Spritzee for healing, Ferroseed for pivoting and Spikes support, and its own Rapid Spin user to work optimally, as well as needing to beware Knock Off and status like the plague. However, it does its job well enough to provide offensive pressure against teams that want to deal with hazards, and can fit on a lot of teams.

252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 364-429 (91.4 - 107.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Water: 241-285 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Uninvested Judgement does 74.9 - 88.3% to 248 Hp Cubone; surprisingly not a OHKO at full health)
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Foongus: 231-273 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mareanie: 372-438 (92 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Drilbur: 360-424 (94.4 - 111.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Life Orb Earthquake does 36.7 - 43.4% to 248 Hp Cubone)
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Groudon-Primal: 348-410 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Honedge: 258-306 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staravia: 158-187 (43.7 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Life Orb Brave Bird does 39.9 - 47.3% to 248 Hp Cubone)
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Vibrava: 204-241 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 192-227 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Giratina: 254-300 (50.4 - 59.6%) (Earthquake does 38.9 - 46.1%)
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzor: 188-222 (45.6 - 53.8%)
 
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Man, people are really sleeping on Cubone's strengths as a Stealth Rock user.

A Bone to Pick
Cubone @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Knock Off

Cubone is one of the most unique Stealth Rock users available, as it's able to scare off most available Defoggers in the tier with its appearance alone. Earthquake is its STAB move of choice, although Bonemerang is also a viable option to break past Substitutes and deal roughly the same damage at the cost of some reliability. Double-Edge allows Cubone to deal fatal damage to most switchins that want to come in on Earthquake and may try to remove hazards, and it provides zero recoil damage with Rock Head. Knock Off lets Cubone cripple incoming walls like Bronzor, Hippopotas, and Slowpoke that may try to withstand its onslaught by removing their Leftovers.

There are other moves that can be run over the last two slots. Rock Tomb is also an option to slow down incoming threats so that Cubone or its teammates can kill or more easily dispose of them. Swords Dance is also an option that lets you devastate Pokemon that would otherwise survive the 2HKO like Clefairy or Slowpoke and open up gaping holes in the opponent's defenses. Toxic is also a suitable option to punish the prime walls that want to test their luck. Also, a friendly reminder change Cubone's ability from Rock Head to Battle Armor if you ever wish to replace Double-Edge as one of the last attacks.

The EVs maximize Cubone's bulk while capitalizing on its monstrous Attack stat, while the minor Speed investment lets Cubone creep past Clefairy and smack it for half of its health before it can think of doing anything. If bulk is not of much concern, trading some HP EVs for Speed is possible. 60 Speed EVs is enough to pass uninvested Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Heatran, 84 Speed EVs allows Cubone to hit Frillish first, while 164 Speed EVs let it creep past Mareanie and uninvested Ho-Oh or Primal-Groudon and snipe them before they can threaten back.

Cubone's bulk is honestly not that bad, especially with its high Defense stat, so treating it as a tank is a perfect role for it. Even though its Speed is lacking, it's not so bad that it's fully detrimental to Cubone's success, as it can still outspeed very real threats like Grimer-Alola and Spritzee without investment, and can creep past significant threats like Clefairy or others with a bit of effort put in. The secret to this set's success is that very few Pokemon will actually want to stay in to remove Cubone's hazards. In fact, the only popular hazard removers that has a positive matchup against Cubone are Staryu and Snivy, who outspeed and strike it down with their respective STAB attacks. While other hazard removers like Piplup, Finneon, Bergmite, Delibird and Squirtle have decent matchups against this set, none of them are particularly common due to inherent flaws that they have. Of course, it needs support from the likes of Spritzee for healing, Ferroseed for pivoting and Spikes support, and its own Rapid Spin user to work optimally, as well as needing to beware Knock Off and status like the plague. However, it does its job well enough to provide offensive pressure against teams that want to deal with hazards, and can fit on a lot of teams.

252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 364-429 (91.4 - 107.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Water: 241-285 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Uninvested Judgement does 74.9 - 88.3% to 248 Hp Cubone; surprisingly not a OHKO at full health)
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Foongus: 231-273 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mareanie: 372-438 (92 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Drilbur: 360-424 (94.4 - 111.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Life Orb Earthquake does 36.7 - 43.4% to 248 Hp Cubone)
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Groudon-Primal: 348-410 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Honedge: 258-306 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staravia: 158-187 (43.7 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Life Orb Brave Bird does 39.9 - 47.3% to 248 Hp Cubone)
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Vibrava: 204-241 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 192-227 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Giratina: 254-300 (50.4 - 59.6%) (Earthquake does 38.9 - 46.1%)
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzor: 188-222 (45.6 - 53.8%)
Agreed. Cubone is balance/HOs version of Hippopotas.
 
A set i have been using with some degree of success


Pancham @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Parting Shot
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch / Gunk Shot

Ice punch nails vibrava and any flying type that isnt expecting it, gunk shot deal with lombre and the prominent fairy types in the meta. The main reason to use this set tho is being able to pivot like mienfoo although with a better move in Parting Shot, leaving the opponent in awkward situations and you in the possibility to bring in a set up sweeper safely. Iron fist to get larger heals off drain punch and bigger damage on ice punch
 

Attachments

Man, people are really sleeping on Cubone's strengths as a Stealth Rock user.

A Bone to Pick
Cubone @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Knock Off

Cubone is one of the most unique Stealth Rock users available, as it's able to scare off most available Defoggers in the tier with its appearance alone. Earthquake is its STAB move of choice, although Bonemerang is also a viable option to break past Substitutes and deal roughly the same damage at the cost of some reliability. Double-Edge allows Cubone to deal fatal damage to most switchins that want to come in on Earthquake and may try to remove hazards, and it provides zero recoil damage with Rock Head. Knock Off lets Cubone cripple incoming walls like Bronzor, Hippopotas, and Slowpoke that may try to withstand its onslaught by removing their Leftovers.

There are other moves that can be run over the last two slots. Rock Tomb is also an option to slow down incoming threats so that Cubone or its teammates can kill or more easily dispose of them. Swords Dance is also an option that lets you devastate Pokemon that would otherwise survive the 2HKO like Clefairy or Slowpoke and open up gaping holes in the opponent's defenses. Toxic is also a suitable option to punish the prime walls that want to test their luck. Also, a friendly reminder change Cubone's ability from Rock Head to Battle Armor if you ever wish to replace Double-Edge as one of the last attacks.

The EVs maximize Cubone's bulk while capitalizing on its monstrous Attack stat, while the minor Speed investment lets Cubone creep past Clefairy and smack it for half of its health before it can think of doing anything. If bulk is not of much concern, trading some HP EVs for Speed is possible. 60 Speed EVs is enough to pass uninvested Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Heatran, 84 Speed EVs allows Cubone to hit Frillish first, while 164 Speed EVs let it creep past Mareanie and uninvested Ho-Oh or Primal-Groudon and snipe them before they can threaten back.

Cubone's bulk is honestly not that bad, especially with its high Defense stat, so treating it as a tank is a perfect role for it. Even though its Speed is lacking, it's not so bad that it's fully detrimental to Cubone's success, as it can still outspeed very real threats like Grimer-Alola and Spritzee without investment, and can creep past significant threats like Clefairy or others with a bit of effort put in. The secret to this set's success is that very few Pokemon will actually want to stay in to remove Cubone's hazards. In fact, the only popular hazard removers that has a positive matchup against Cubone are Staryu and Snivy, who outspeed and strike it down with their respective STAB attacks. While other hazard removers like Piplup, Finneon, Bergmite, Delibird and Squirtle have decent matchups against this set, none of them are particularly common due to inherent flaws that they have. Of course, it needs support from the likes of Spritzee for healing, Ferroseed for pivoting and Spikes support, and its own Rapid Spin user to work optimally, as well as needing to beware Knock Off and status like the plague. However, it does its job well enough to provide offensive pressure against teams that want to deal with hazards, and can fit on a lot of teams.

252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 364-429 (91.4 - 107.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Water: 241-285 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Uninvested Judgement does 74.9 - 88.3% to 248 Hp Cubone; surprisingly not a OHKO at full health)
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Foongus: 231-273 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mareanie: 372-438 (92 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Drilbur: 360-424 (94.4 - 111.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Life Orb Earthquake does 36.7 - 43.4% to 248 Hp Cubone)
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Groudon-Primal: 348-410 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Honedge: 258-306 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staravia: 158-187 (43.7 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Life Orb Brave Bird does 39.9 - 47.3% to 248 Hp Cubone)
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Vibrava: 204-241 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 192-227 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Giratina: 254-300 (50.4 - 59.6%) (Earthquake does 38.9 - 46.1%)
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzor: 188-222 (45.6 - 53.8%)
It's an item reliant drillbur there's really no reason to pick it up over it
 
It's an item reliant drillbur there's really no reason to pick it up over it
Drillbur has more speed, doesn't necessarily need an item to hit hard, fits the role of sweeper, and has Rapid Spin.

Cubone is stronger (unless your Drillbur has a Choice Band), bulkier, has Knock Off, is a tank as opposed to a sweeper, reliably KOs relevant spinners/defoggers that Drillbur can't, has the same if not more positive matchups against hazard removers than Drillbur...


Yeah I don't know about you, but there are definitely reasons to pick Cubone over Drillbur. Saying Cubone isn't Drillbur and therefore has no reason to be used is like saying Drillbur should never be chosen over Hippopotas under any circumstances.
 
Since we're just stanning for mons that work well for us

Psyduck @ Leftovers
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Protect
- Scald

For reference it has 100/104/96/130/100/110 base stats in this.

Psyduck has been mentioned a couple times already, and it actually is more than just a gimmick water type that can hit Primal Groudon. It's an effective balance breaker, especially against teams lacking a solid water resist, and it can turn much of the tier's bulky meta into setup fodder, expecially if it can get a burn. It has the luxury of being able to afford to run mono-Water coverage without being stopped by one of the tier's most prevalent threats and can run Protect in the last slot to scout, stall out opposing poisoned or burned mons, maybe dunk on Mienfoo and get some more leftovers recovery. Cloud Nine has some other niche uses too, most notably making Primal Kyogre with Thunder's matchup a lot easier as you can fish for a Thunder miss. A lot of bulkier teams' recourse against this is go into Grimer and try and beat it down before you get burned (Psyduck is likely to maintain a sub against a burned Grimer, although it depends on EV spread) or go into some fast Toxic mon like support Arceus or Vibrava and try to Toxic it while its Sub is down, often getting burned for their troubles too. Besides that it sets up really easy on fat mons like Slowpoke (and most bulky waters in general), Spritzee+Clefairy lacking CM, and more. Common grass types Ferroseed and Shroomish can be set up on too as Ferroseed usually doesn't carry a Grass attack and Shroomish is usually too weak to stop you from setting up. Best slow defensive checks are probably Haze Mareanie, stronger Grass types, and the uncommon water-immune Pokemon. If you want you can run a psychic move over Protect though as it improves those troubling matchups but I find the utility and extra healing of Protect better. And against offense it's pretty mediocre, usually bulky enough to take a hit but doesn't really check anything unless it gets lucky with Scald burn.

If you're going to use Psyduck I suggest using it paired with cleric support (it hates status and can appreciate extra recovery), something that can switch in on Grimer and wear it down, and probably also a toxic spike absorber, maybe a toxic spiker of your own so you can sub stall opposing offensive mons. Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
 

aVocado

Mr. Worldwide
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Natu @ Psychium Z
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Heat Wave
- Roost

natu is insanely good from my brief yet fun experience in 350. I've played a bunch of games and there's literally not a single one where natu didn't prove useful. If it didn't setup and sweep, it breaks cores for other members of the team. if it didn't do that, it controls hazards and prevents them or just turns them around. I use psychic for consistency but stored power can also be used to always beat stall and unaware (do those even exist in the meta? i'm not sure..)

it doesn't even auto-lose to ditto cuz of the spdef boosts so unless they get a crit, you win the 1v1. it outspeeds cranidos and mienfoo unless they're scarfed which i have yet to come across. and even then scarfed mienfoo is restricted to a 65 bp knock off to try and revenge (which doesn't ohko). it just honestly surprised me how overall good this mon is, really didn't expect it to be an mvp when I was building a quick team lol

i've come across a lot of ferroseeds and natu just shuts them down. although gyro ball hurts and can 2hko so i'll look into a spread that dodges that



also cranidos has been really underwhelming for me? like yeah, it hits like a truck, but there's always stuff that can take a hit OR it just gets outsped and does nothing. although its fun to run life orb sheer force w/ ice beam and rock slide. I do think i'm using it wrong though. maybe I'll try an adamant set w/ rock polish and some bulk investment and see what it'd do.
 
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I think that Cranidos might have become less potent in recent times, now that defensive mons can afford to run less speed to outspeed Cranidos and move that into bulk (Vibrava, for instance, only needs 64+ speed EVs to outspeeds) but I still think Cranidos is rather scary to face. Rock Polish sets have been putting in work for me, especially when it reaches an insanely high speed at +2. In that situation, it's capable of running Adamant and increasing its damage output, and then it becomes more devastating to try and handle it. Sheer Force LO sets are really good now, and Cranidos can pick what checks it, especially when it's capable of running Ice Beam/Blizzard to remove Ground-Types from the equation, Fire Punch to handle Steels, Crunch to handle Slowpoke, and more for other options that I didn't mention.

Cranidos has put in work for me in a Veil HO team, especially when it just threatens to KO so many things after a Rock Polish. I'm sure others may have found some success with different sets, like drampa's grandpa mentioned to me earlier that he seemed to like Swords Dance on Cranidos, which frankly sounds terrifying to deal with, especially on balance or more defensively-oriented teams. Scarf or Band sets sounds not as great but could put in some work, Band more than Scarf. I'm still convinced that Cranidos should go, but at the same time, I would understand why some people may be hesitant to do something about Cranidos now.
 


Spritzee @ Leftovers
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Aromatherapy
- Moonblast


Bronzor @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Psywave
- Toxic
- Hypnosis

Been having good success with this core. Bronzor is a super reliable rocksetter that avoids 2HKOs from nearly all of the tier, which makes it benefit a ton from wish support. Even after it takes a strong hit, there are usually many opportunities to bring Bronzor in on a wish. Running hypnosis over protect lets Bronzor keep up momentum vs. setup mons and Ferroseed, which are its usual problems.

4 Spe is important for speed creeping Bronzors/Spritzees and putting them to sleep.

252 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzor: 126-150 (29.1 - 34.7%) -- 8.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Cranidos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzor: 194-230 (44.9 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Grimer-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzor: 198-234 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 46.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzor: 194-230 (44.9 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Scraggy Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzor: 188-224 (43.5 - 51.8%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO
 

aVocado

Mr. Worldwide
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I'm toying around with the idea of mixed/rock polish cranidos and I think this could be the best set:


Cranidos @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 168 Atk / 88 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Rock Polish
- Blizzard
- Fire Punch
- Rock Slide

88 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vibrava: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferroseed: 458-541 (120.5 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 220-261 (39 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The only problem is slowpoke is a haaaard counter to any set w/o crunch. and even crunch doesn't really do that much. it 2hkos but doesn't really do as much as i'd like it to and it's sad :( slowpoke is fat as hell

Blizzard is really nice cuz it always ohkos non-spdef vibrava, and the EV spread should be self-explanatory. 88 spatk to guarantee the ohko, max speed, rest in attack. 250 base doesn't need full investment cuz its already too much LOL

haven't used this set yet so it's still all theory, but i plan to soon

also I agree with the bronzor statement. I personally run spdef with protect over hypnosis but fact remains its very, very reliable and checks a lot of threats while setting up rocks consistently, always. it's a good mon :)

edit:

i completely forgot the existence of cubone.. it's actually an aids mon -_-

168+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cubone: 139-165 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
88 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cubone: 203-239 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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Disagree with Bronzor being that good.
mold crani, Pdon, Ferroseed, fire punch sd Cubone, you can't just say "put it to sleep and win" when your move has 60% acc.

As for Crani's mixed set:
just proves it's stupid OP.
 

Exeggcute @ Wiki Berry
Harvest
Bold; 252HP, 252Def, 4SpA
- Energy Ball
- Psychic
- Leech Seed
- Substitute

So... I thought I'd try Exeggcute out in this, and it turns out that I like it a lot. A Defense stat of 160 is impressive, especially when combined with 120 HP. Combine that with Harvesting Wiki Berries and you have yourself a fairly reliable bulky Grass type.

This is the set I'm running right now. I'm still experimenting with it, so this might not be the best one it has to offer.

Biggest thing to watch out for with Exeggcute is it's own 4x weakness to Bug, which makes U-Turn a pain in the ass. A designated Knock Off switch-in would be a good partner for it since otherwise Harvest becomes useless. Also, Magnemite for Steels. I tried Alolan Geodude as well, but Magmemite is so much better at dealing with them, I've found.
 

drampa's grandpa

DRAMPA CONFIRMED
is a Pre-Contributor
The OM Moderation Team has decided to suspect Cranidos!


The suspect will last for one week, ending at 11:59 PM EST on Tuesday, October 23.
The requirements for this suspect are 76 GXE in a minimum of 25 games on a fresh alt with "Dos" included in it. Please post proof of your requirements in the thread in order for your vote to be counted.
In order for Cranidos to be banned we will need 50%+1 ban percentage.

In other news...
We are (finally) taking applications for leadership of the 350 Cup metagame.
If you believe you qualify for leadership please fill out the form here.
Please note that the OM Moderation team (E4 Flint, Ransei, The Immortal, and myself) will all see the submissions.
We will be accepting submissions until Saturday at 11:59 EST, in order to find a leader before the end of the suspect.

Until then I will be acting as temporary leader for the 350 Cup metagame, a situation which will soon be rectified :)​
tagging The Immortal
 
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76.png

Cranidos: No Ban

I would like to retract my hasty vote if at all possible and go with no ban. The reasoning for this is in no way a swaying in opinion to fit in with the latter posts but rather my increased knowledge of the tier. Originally not having much experience with the tier i grabbed df-shooks stall team and altered it slightly as a few mons such as a well played gastly threatened me. Honestly mixed groudon gave me far more issues than cranidos which didn't result in a loss ever, granted this is more the standard of the ladder playing a wincon with reckless abandon than an example of cranidos being unbanworthy.I voted purely on the mons powerful attack stat and solid movepool.

After voting I realized I had never actually used the team so after a few tweaks ended up with this and laddered up to top10 which isn't saying all that much about the team but more the amount of games as often you're getting low rank opponents and gaining few points.
350 cup.png
<-- Import
sp def seed acts as the teams water resist and lays on spikes to support the hard hitting hjks and double u turn on this build. vibrava is a nice ground and elect immune in one, while being this teams answer to primal groudon as well as an emergency defogger.Speed can be invested to outrun un boosted cranidos but i prefer the bulk as it is the main fire resist as well as a fight resist and can sometimes be quite pressured. Band grimer traps ghosts (without it scarf gastly 6-0s) for mienfoo and helps out with abra, it also deals a hefty amount of damage if brought in via a slow u turn or on forced switch. This team is slightly foongus weak so pressuring it with hazards and pursuit is vital if not dealth with by cranidos fire punch. clef is a secondary fight resist which is very much needed as well as a dragon immune and rocker it also acts as a late game wincon. Mixed cranidos is there to break for scarf foo by ridding teams of hippo,slow vibrava etc.
My findings
scarf.png
The scarf set which i tried first of all was rather underwhelming in terms of being banworthy. I ran a slow bulk foo in order to get slow turns into it and honestly the team worked rather well but cranidos still needs to be played well to pick up kills even with it being aided by spikes from ferroseed. I found cranidos had issues with protect sprit,vibrava, cubone, hippo etc. I also ran banded for a while with scarf foo but found it literally had to be used as a sack against offensive teams where everything outsped it. For me the biggest issue with this mon is the unpredictability of the set. Mixed ice beam beats supposed checks or counters, band bops slow builds and scarf can be a threat to teams lacking traditional answers. However this pokemon ends up being quite matchup reliant and once the set is revealed can often be dealt with fairly economically. Swings and roundabouts as they say! what you gain from one set you lose on the other. This mon is good, there is no doubting that and you obviously have to build with that in mind as you would with any high ranking mon but it can't do everything.It's role is confined to each set and shouldn't be looked at as a unified entity.
 

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Cranidos: Do Not Ban
Cranidos is strong for sure but it certainly doesn't lack counterplay. For one, Choice Scarf variants just don't output the right amount of damage to smash through things and often times it tends to kill itself through recoil. Choice Band has this issue which is helped by it taking on blanket checks like Slowpoke and Mienfoo better but is hindered by its incapability to deal with bulky Ground types too well and a lack of general switchins. Life Orb and Rock Polish variants are also solid and happen to be excellent lures to targets but I feel that this is quite easily dealt with in the same way and Cranidos is unlikely to manage to set up Rock Polish where a blanket check does not exist. On top of this it also has some serious 4MSS for Life Orb variants and this can lead to it being total deadweight if it lacks the proper coverage.

Here is an example of a team that I used which can happily deal with Cranidos:

:sm/slowpoke: :sm/foongus: :sm/mienfoo: :sm/staravia: :sm/cubone: :sm/grimer-alola:
Slowpoke @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Slack Off

Foongus @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Spore
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Mienfoo @ Poisonium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 116 HP / 248 Def / 144 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Poison Jab
- Swords Dance
- U-turn

Staravia @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Roost
- Defog

Cubone @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance

Grimer-Alola @ Choice Band
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Gunk Shot
- Fire Punch

This team bolsters multiple blanket checks whilst still having Pokemon that manage to let Cranidos in fairly freely (Staravia). It is quite consistent in its role as to deal significant damage to this core, Cranidos needs to have Crunch and Zen Headbutt and needs to come in twice to have a shot of winning. It also needs to predict the switchin correctly which often means it is more switches than this in practice.

Overall, Cranidos is a major threat but something I would consider healthy for 350 Cup.
 
Cranidos Reqs.png

I'm going to vote No Ban on the Cranidos Suspect. Cranidos is strong but is very affected by 4 move syndrome that makes it unable to deal with multiple Pokémon. While it does require possibly multiple checks or a couple counters in each team, I find that the entire metagame is entirely oriented around physical offense. It is not so much Cranidos by itself that pressures teams the most, but rather multiple physical attackers. With that in mind, I find it necessary that teams have a strong physically defensive backbone, not just because of Cranidos but because of threats like Banded/Scarf Reckless Staravia, SD Cubone and Banded Mienfoo. I vote against the ban not because Cranidos is not a great mon, but rather because it's niche isn't unique; it isn't overcentralising but rather one element of a defining feature of the tier.
 
Sandshrew-Alola's iron head eats cranidos for lunch in hail
252+ Atk Sandshrew-Alola Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cranidos: 386-456 (94.3 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after hail damage
252+ Atk Sandshrew-Alola Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Cranidos: 386-456 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252+ Atk Muscle Band Sandshrew-Alola Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cranidos: 422-500 (103.1 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Muscle Band Sandshrew-Alola Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Cranidos: 422-500 (89.5 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after hail damage
but it does need scarf or it gets outspeeded by scarf jolly 252 cranidos
252+ Atk Cranidos Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Sandshrew-Alola: 238-282 (59 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cranidos is missing stuff like its 134/80/60 defences that is beaten by spritzee and others and 116 speed isn't always reliable, therefore it could be beaten by other competitors

e.g:
Groudon-Primal
100/180/160/150/90/90

the set for testing:
God (Groudon-Primal) @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fire Punch
- Precipice Blades
- Power-Up Punch
- Rock Slide

252 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Cranidos: 560-662 (118.8 - 140.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Cranidos Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 170-201 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Groudon-Primal: 404-476 (118.4 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 214-253 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
umm… both doesn't stand a chance against this op guy

252 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Spritzee: 213-252 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Groudon-Primal Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Spritzee in Harsh Sunshine: 202-238 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Spritzee: 319-376 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Cranidos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Spritzee: 170-200 (32.9 - 38.7%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sheer Force Cranidos Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Spritzee: 352-416 (68.2 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Cranidos Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Spritzee: 272-322 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Cranidos stand with iron head

252 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Cubone: 144-169 (35.7 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 400-472 (106.1 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Cranidos Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Cubone: 113-134 (28 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Cranidos: 720-852 (152.8 - 180.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Groudon win for attack and both fall when hit with bonemerang

252+ Atk Cranidos Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 266-314 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cranidos: 416-492 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
but no one runs that so
252 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cranidos: 600-708 (127.1 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO

EDIT:
Lets see this amazing Rowlet:
Don't Bully Me (Rowlet) @ Leftovers
Ability: Long Reach
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
also voltorb is stupidly weak
nevermind any of that
EDIT 2:
I would vote for no ban on cranidos
 
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