SwSh Battle Facilities Discussion & Records

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but the Battle Tower appears to not have a ban list at all. Meaning you can bring Zacian or Zamazenta into the tower at any tier.

So far I can only find video evidence showing Zacian in the second Leon fight at Master Ball tier, will need more investigation to see if you can continue using him past that but it looks highly likely.

Also Leon gets a cool new outfit
 
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-No streaks, the win count doesn't reset when you lose and it doesn't even save the game before you go in
-No ban list, so you can just wipe with legends
-Only one trainer in the entire tower seems to use gigantimax

But hey the music slaps.
Are there any clauses enforced at all? Like species clause etc
 
-No streaks, the win count doesn't reset when you lose and it doesn't even save the game before you go in
-No ban list, so you can just wipe with legends
-Only one trainer in the entire tower seems to use gigantimax

But hey the music slaps.
So breeding is basically irrelevant, battle tower is pointless, and raids are easy once you get to a high enough level.

What's the point of this game? Beat the Elite 4 once then sell it to Gamestop?
 

turskain

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Assuming that the battles and opposing trainers still have interesting parts about them - it might be possible to self-impose a streak challenge, tracking your Victories count (assuming it's an accurate number of your total victories ignoring losses) when you start and then noting when you lose to see how far you got in a series of repeated Master Ball rank Tower runs. If there's an interest in doing this, we could still have listings and leaderboards for people attempting this and reporting their results and ideas.

Given the self-imposed and arbitrary nature of this, there could be several meaningful arbitrary rulesets - one where you just keep track of your victories manually and note down when you lose, another that forbids restricted species in addition, and a third that forbids restricted species and Dynamax, to even the playing field with to the AI being unable to use it aside from Leon. These different variants could be tracked and marked for a listing or leaderboard depending on how players want to approach it.
 

Codraroll

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-No streaks, the win count doesn't reset when you lose and it doesn't even save the game before you go in
-No ban list, so you can just wipe with legends
-Only one trainer in the entire tower seems to use gigantimax

But hey the music slaps.
A lot can be and has been said about the things sadly left out from SwSh, but this one was a particular slap in the feels. It practically represents the total erasure of an aspect of the community. It's not a part of the community I was particularly engaged in (I don't think I've ever beaten, or for that matter even reached, a facility boss in any Pokémon game), but it felt good to know it was there and that there were people who had fun in other ways than I - like how I had fun in other ways than them. The mere existence of more stuff to do made it feel like the game would always have something new to discover. Another milestone to pass, should I decide to take the challenge.

For instance, I never completed Pokéstar Studios, but I always knew it would be there to provide several hours more of content if I chose to go into it. Same with Contests or Musicals or PWT or what-have-you: things I never really got around to, but whose existence made me think higher of the games anyway. I didn't always take the option to engage with these features, but knowing I had the option made the games feel rich in content, a feeling that probably made me enjoy them even more. I still think of B2W2 as games with more content for me to find, should I ever choose to take them down from the shelves. I don't feel like I've seen everything they have to offer.

But in SwSh, the Battle Tower is essentially meaningless, and there is no "perpetual challenge" in-game anymore. An option I won't have. Not sure if I would have taken it (my record Battle Tree streak of zero suggest I wouldn't - but on the other hand, that was mostly because prepping for the Tree would take way more time than actually playing it, which this generation seems to have simplified greatly), but I would know the option was available. And now I know it isn't there. It's one less thing for the community to talk about, and it feels like something is lost.

Game Freak probably changed the Battle Whatever because their data suggested few people ever bothered to chase streaks in the endless modes, but I think many players still cherished that feeling of having the option. Few players ever interacted with every bit of content the games have to offer, but each bit of content still had its fans, who would think "these games have a great adventure, this feature I really like, and a bunch of other things too!". Removing options like this makes the games feel poorer even for players who didn't play the Battle Whatever. It would be like the developers limiting the size of a Minecraft world to 5x5 kilometers because few players ever venture further than that from their home base. Dragging the borders of the world close enough that you can see them creates an inhibiting feeling that "this is all there is", taking away that potential for limitless exploration. Even homebound players would be upset about that change.

What's the point of this game? Beat the Elite 4 once then sell it to Gamestop?
There's VGC, if you want to bother with that. If not, well, what you said, but you are also expected to be hyped for the next game in the series when that time of the cycle comes along. At times, I get in a cynical mood and wonder if Game Freak purposefully avoids designing for longevity, as that would make it harder to sell the next game in the series.
 
Beat the Elite 4 once then sell it to Gamestop?
No because you can't even do that
There is no Elite 4, you get a champion's tournament with your rivals, gym leaders, and Leon. Which while kind of cool in a sports anime way, it does mean that this game is lacking four unique trainers.

But beyond that, I think it's clear that this is a very bare bones pokemon game where everything has gotten deep cuts. The Battle Tower and post-game challenges is just another victim in a long list.
 
Shortcut to this page: http://spo.ink/tower8

Sword and Shield are nearly here and the opponent set data has been dumped, and it's time to discuss the new battle facility: Battle Tower.

We have a Discord server: https://discord.gg/QrsE2ep
The #treexit channel is for discussion of 8th generation Battle Tower. It also includes #general for 6th and 7th generation discussion and #frontier for 3rd, 4th and 5th generation facility discussion.

Brief Rules
  • Regular Smogon and Orange Islands forum rules apply.

  • Feel free to discuss any topics related to Battle Tower: teambuilding, foe sets and trainers, streaks you're working on. Theorymon is also more than welcome.

  • Information and speculation on AI behaviour, particularly with respect to changes from previous generations. Sharing battle videos of unusual behaviour, to enable mock battling to reproduce weird occurrences is most helpful. (If mock battling is a feature in Sword and Shield!)

  • If you think the AI is cheating, whether in improbable luck, illegal abilities or illegal movesets, please provide a battle video of the incident for further analysis. Regarding unfavorable luck, consider the following first: Probability primer by Coeur7

  • Facility play is based around trust, given the infeasibility of providing airtight proof of legitimacy for streaks running for dozens or even hundreds of hours. We ask that you do not cheat and submit streaks in good faith. Save-file back-ups, editing the savefile to increase the streak number, and other cheating methods are prohibited.

  • Super Singles and Doubles streaks of [TBD] wins or more are eligible to be listed on the leaderboard (to be added after the game has been out for a bit). To submit your streak for the leaderboard, include a screenshot and/or battle video of your accomplishment in your post and provide set details of the team(s) you used.

  • As a new addition, with this generation ALL ongoing streaks above [TBD] wins are eligible for listing, to maintain a more thorough index of teams and encourage streak posts. Ongoing streaks will be placed in a separate listing for ongoing streaks, and moved onto the leaderboards once the streaks are finished.


Useful Resources
*Historical Records*
Battle Tree Discussion and Records
Battle Maison Discussion and Records
Battle Subway Discussion and Records
Battle Tower / Frontier Discussion and Records
Gen III Battle Frontier Discussion and Records

*Trainer Data and Searchable Spreadsheets*
Tower sets and trainers (courtesy of SadisticMystic, based on data dumps from Kaphotics)

*Damage Calculator*
Tree Damage Calculator (not yet updated for SwSh)


Since we're just getting started and the games aren't out the door yet, I consider the exact details for the rules to be up for discussion at the moment. If you have ideas or suggestions for what you'd like to see, feel free to discuss in this thread or in Discord, or send me a PM.
What does the "1 neutral," "13 no + invest," and "4 - invest" mean?
 

turskain

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is a Community Contributor Alumnus
What does the "1 neutral," "13 no + invest," and "4 - invest" mean?
They refer to what the set's EVs are invested in relative to their nature and the number in front is the amount - so 13 sets don't invest into a stat that their nature boosts, 4 sets invest into a stat reduced by their nature, and 1 set has a neutral nature.
 
A lot can be and has been said about the things sadly left out from SwSh, but this one was a particular slap in the feels. It practically represents the total erasure of an aspect of the community. It's not a part of the community I was particularly engaged in (I don't think I've ever beaten, or for that matter even reached, a facility boss in any Pokémon game), but it felt good to know it was there and that there were people who had fun in other ways than I - like how I had fun in other ways than them. The mere existence of more stuff to do made it feel like the game would always have something new to discover. Another milestone to pass, should I decide to take the challenge.

For instance, I never completed Pokéstar Studios, but I always knew it would be there to provide several hours more of content if I chose to go into it. Same with Contests or Musicals or PWT or what-have-you: things I never really got around to, but whose existence made me think higher of the games anyway. I didn't always take the option to engage with these features, but knowing I had the option made the games feel rich in content, a feeling that probably made me enjoy them even more. I still think of B2W2 as games with more content for me to find, should I ever choose to take them down from the shelves. I don't feel like I've seen everything they have to offer.

But in SwSh, the Battle Tower is essentially meaningless, and there is no "perpetual challenge" in-game anymore. An option I won't have. Not sure if I would have taken it (my record Battle Tree streak of zero suggest I wouldn't - but on the other hand, that was mostly because prepping for the Tree would take way more time than actually playing it, which this generation seems to have simplified greatly), but I would know the option was available. And now I know it isn't there. It's one less thing for the community to talk about, and it feels like something is lost.

Game Freak probably changed the Battle Whatever because their data suggested few people ever bothered to chase streaks in the endless modes, but I think many players still cherished that feeling of having the option. Few players ever interacted with every bit of content the games have to offer, but each bit of content still had its fans, who would think "these games have a great adventure, this feature I really like, and a bunch of other things too!". Removing options like this makes the games feel poorer even for players who didn't play the Battle Whatever. It would be like the developers limiting the size of a Minecraft world to 5x5 kilometers because few players ever venture further than that from their home base. Dragging the borders of the world close enough that you can see them creates an inhibiting feeling that "this is all there is", taking away that potential for limitless exploration. Even homebound players would be upset about that change.


There's VGC, if you want to bother with that. If not, well, what you said, but you are also expected to be hyped for the next game in the series when that time of the cycle comes along. At times, I get in a cynical mood and wonder if Game Freak purposefully avoids designing for longevity, as that would make it harder to sell the next game in the series.
It’s also worth noting this tier list is the new Battlespot, or Battle Stadium: That maybe the reason why they replaced it with this system. I do agree that SwSh comes off as “lazy”, and I’ll probably put my review on SwSh later.
 

CTNC

Doesn't know how to attack
-No streaks, the win count doesn't reset when you lose and it doesn't even save the game before you go in
-No ban list, so you can just wipe with legends
-Only one trainer in the entire tower seems to use gigantimax

But hey the music slaps.
You... you can't be serious... >:( Starting to wish I kept waiting for the third version even after I knew it probably wasn't happening.

Passive-aggressive attempt at optimism: I knew some people would stick to the Battle Tree because of Dexit, so I guess this keeps the Tower/Tree community together.

Pathetic attempt at serious optimism: Maybe we can see who gets the worst team to Master Rank Leon?
 
The 'purpose' of the Battle Tower is quite clear... to grind BP for things to optimize your squad for multiplayer.

It almost feels like a sort of PvP - MMO style. You grind various sources for the 'gear' to take on other players. Between the best moves being one-use TR's which you need to grind Watts for; to needing to be Lv100 for Hyper Training [Which you can reach with lv60 wilds and Candies from Raids/Tower] and then there's Mints/Items from BP...
 
Anyone else noticing that the BP rewards really seem to dry up after beating master rank Leon?

You'd think it'd scale so I get more than 2 BP per fight eventually or keep giving me rare candies and bottle caps to help smooth things along.

It's like with money, I was overloaded in the main game but it costs 520k to max a dude with vitamins and refilling my bank can be surprisingly slow.

Am I missing something here? I'm trying to get a decent stockpile together to prepare for tournaments and the grind seems pretty unforgiving.
 
Anyone else noticing that the BP rewards really seem to dry up after beating master rank Leon?

You'd think it'd scale so I get more than 2 BP per fight eventually or keep giving me rare candies and bottle caps to help smooth things along.

It's like with money, I was overloaded in the main game but it costs 520k to max a dude with vitamins and refilling my bank can be surprisingly slow.

Am I missing something here? I'm trying to get a decent stockpile together to prepare for tournaments and the grind seems pretty unforgiving.
There is a BP Shop in Hammerlocke's south Pokémon Center that allows you to buy Vitamins for 2 BP each, as well as other items (Power equips, PP Up, etc.).

Unless you're just referring to the BP grind in general, which, yeah, it's somewhat jarring after getting showered with BP in the Tree, especially with Mints being so costly.
 

Jibaku

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If you lose your streak, do you get the bonus BPs and items from ranking up again?
 
It's like with money, I was overloaded in the main game but it costs 520k to max a dude with vitamins and refilling my bank can be surprisingly slow.

Am I missing something here?
In this game we have easiest money grind in Pokémon history.

1. Go get yourself that early access Gigantamax Meowth, make sure that he has at least one damaging normal type move
2. Go to Pokemon League, start tournament
3. Immediately Dynamax your Meowth and cast Gold Rush three times in the row
4. Switch him out, sweep all that rest and pick up around 81-86k, on top of normal prize money (which can be doubled with Amulet Coin and Lucky Essence)
5. In 2 pokemon league runs only you can just buy all necessary vitamins to EV max out your pokemon. It's like 30 min work, seriously

Well, if someone reading this comment from near future, where G-Max Meowth is no more - SoL. But you can catch Galarian Meowth, trade him for common Meowth with the boy in grass gym. That Meowth goes by the name Cash, and has move called Pay Day, which is similar to Gold Rush, but works outside of Dynamax shenanigans. It doesn't generate huge amounts of coins, as Gold Rush does, but hey - it's better than nothing.
 
Well, if someone reading this comment from near future, where G-Max Meowth is no more - SoL. But you can catch Galarian Meowth, trade him for common Meowth with the boy in grass gym. That Meowth goes by the name Cash, and has move called Pay Day, which is similar to Gold Rush, but works outside of Dynamax shenanigans. It doesn't generate huge amounts of coins, as Gold Rush does, but hey - it's better than nothing.
Pay Day is actually a regular TM, there's quite a few pokes that can learn it (including Galar Meowth itself)
 
Pay Day is actually a regular TM, there's quite a few pokes that can learn it (including Galar Meowth itself)
Oh, didn't know that, thanks. Well, if you have access to G-Max Meowth, Pay Day is not needed at all - difference is huge.
 
In this game we have easiest money grind in Pokémon history.

1. Go get yourself that early access Gigantamax Meowth, make sure that he has at least one damaging normal type move
2. Go to Pokemon League, start tournament
3. Immediately Dynamax your Meowth and cast Gold Rush three times in the row
4. Switch him out, sweep all that rest and pick up around 81-86k, on top of normal prize money (which can be doubled with Amulet Coin and Lucky Essence)
5. In 2 pokemon league runs only you can just buy all necessary vitamins to EV max out your pokemon. It's like 30 min work, seriously

Well, if someone reading this comment from near future, where G-Max Meowth is no more - SoL. But you can catch Galarian Meowth, trade him for common Meowth with the boy in grass gym. That Meowth goes by the name Cash, and has move called Pay Day, which is similar to Gold Rush, but works outside of Dynamax shenanigans. It doesn't generate huge amounts of coins, as Gold Rush does, but hey - it's better than nothing.
Glad i was missing something in the money front. I forgot about the event meowth because it looked like a joke. Thanks.
 
Hey, it could still be fun to race and see how many battles you could win in an hour or two. I feel like the vast majority of the people talking about how the challenge is all gone would still have a tough time getting 500+ straight or whatever; it's not like the legendaries are immune to hax items or OHKO moves, and the two main ones require an item that offers them no status protection or health recovery.

It's just so goofy that this was shaped up to be the first generation that could be played on a console where you had much better options for streaming or otherwise showing you were playing the game in a legit fashion, and then they just made a joke of it.
 
For all it's worth, it seems that the AI isn't duped by Tricking a Choice item onto it anymore. My Scarf Rotom parked it onto not-very-effective options and status stuff, and they switched out in both cases.

Unsure of its logic for choosing when to switch, but it seems that Choice locking is no longer the easy win it used to be.
 
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turskain

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In the absence of streaks tracked by the game, I introduce to you: the Streak Challenge. Just like the streaks in previous-gen facilities, but entirely self-imposed and optional! Also included in the preliminary rules in the OP.

  • Streaks as we know them have been removed from the game. The gameplay and battle mechanics remain intact, and streaks for the leaderboard will now exist in the form of the self-imposed Streak Challenge. To participate, track your win streak in repeated Tower rounds in Master Ball MAX rank manually by:

    1) Writing down or screenshotting the amount of Victories at the start of your streak, and when you lose for the first time. Then subtract the former from the latter to get the length of your winning streak!

    2) Alternatively, if the Victories counter maxes out, or turns out to be inaccurate: count the amount of rounds you go through, each of them containing 11 battles each, ending in a battle with Leon. Once you lose, calculate the total amount of battles you won during your winning streak from the amount of rounds you cleared.

  • Singles and Doubles Streak Challenges of 50 wins or more are eligible to be listed on the leaderboard (to be added after the game has been out for a bit). To submit your streak for the leaderboard, post details of your team and include an estimate of your Streak Challenge's length in your post. This operates on the honor system and we ask you to participate in good faith and not cheat, or forget losses that are not tracked by the Tower itself. Gameplay recordings or streams are appreciated but not necessary.

  • As the Streak Challenge is an arbitrary self-imposed challenge, you may opt to explore additional rules or variants such as No Dynamax, Monotype, or Only NFE Pokémon. Include any extra rules you followed in your post and I will include your Streak Challenge in one way or another.

  • Battle Tower allows restricted Pokémon, and they are allowed for Streak Challenges. Depending on how things go, there may be a separate Ubers leaderboard for Streak Challenges using restricted Pokémon

  • As a new addition, with this generation ALL ongoing streaks above 50 wins are eligible for listing, to maintain a more thorough index of teams and encourage streak posts.

Note that this is all not yet set in stone and likely to be adjusted as we move forward - if you have feedback or ideas for what you'd want to see, don't be shy!
 
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