A New Direction for Other Metagames

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
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Kingslayer2779 The "X meta uses standard sets" argument applies more so to Monotype than it does to AG because AG lacks clauses such as Swagger, Evasion, and most importantly Species whereas Monotype is for all intents and purposes just a restricted OU. I would much rather do AG analyses than Monotype for that reason. Also, arguing that AG doesn't need analyses because most of the ladder is shit is pretty shaky. The best OU players are at the top of that ladder too and probably don't need analyses either. What's your point exactly?
Let me get this out of the way right off the bat: I'm not pushing for Monotype analyses to be added to OM C&C right now. We've discussed this in the past and I'm fine with how things are currently.

However, I really disagree with "Monotype uses standard tier sets" as the reason to not do it. Some 'mons do, some don't. For example, things like Sap Sipper Azu, fully SpDef Zapdos, Steel's immunity core, Scarf <insert Base 80+ speed pokemon> and RestTalk Mega-Gyarados are metagame defining forces and every team should prepare for them. Yet, these are things you would never learn from a standard tier analysis (or really anywhere at the moment). Josh hit on key point: the team options, usage tips, CnC, etc. are completely unique.

The dex exists to guide competitive pokemon players that chose to play the metagames Smogon sponsors. Monotype is unique, and popular, enough to at least be recognized as something separate from OU and the standard tiers at some point when it comes to the dex.

Now, as for why it isn't/shouldn't be included at the current time. OM C&C is already crowded w/ the three initial metagames and it doesn't need more clutter. Also, there are other metagames that deserve priority over monotype if/when a 4th is added (AG being a prime example).

Edit: Didn't realize AG already had analyses! That is awesome and I hope the OM section continues to expand as the forum space opens up!
 
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Twix

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Let me get this out of the way right off the bat: I'm not pushing for Monotype analyses to be added to OM C&C right now. We've discussed this in the past and I'm fine with how things are currently.

However, I really disagree with "Monotype uses standard tier sets" as the reason to not do it. Some 'mons do, some don't. For example, things like Sap Sipper Azu, fully SpDef Zapdos, Steel's immunity core, Scarf <insert Base 80+ speed pokemon> and RestTalk Mega-Gyarados are metagame defining forces and every team should prepare for them. Yet, these are things you would never learn from a standard tier analysis (or really anywhere at the moment). Josh hit on key point: the team options, usage tips, CnC, etc. are completely unique.

The dex exists to guide competitive pokemon players that chose to play the metagames Smogon sponsors. Monotype is unique, and popular, enough to at least be recognized as something separate from OU and the standard tiers at some point when it comes to the dex.

Now, as for why it isn't/shouldn't be included at the current time. OM C&C is already crowded w/ the three initial metagames and it doesn't need more clutter. Also, there are other metagames that deserve priority over monotype if/when a 4th is added (AG being a prime example).
AG was actually added a while ago lol. I also agree with what you've said here, and Monotype analyses has been something I've been pushing for too.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ok so I mainly want to address the permaladders on the main server currently, as I find that is were we should start fixing things.

Like I mentioned before, I always wondered if there was a limit to how many ladders we can hold, and what permits a meta to gain a perma or rotational ladder (which I will discuss latter). I was suprised and glad when STABmons and AAA were added to the OM ladders, it made sense as they held large playerbases and placing a permaladder can help with testing things which in turn helps with tiering and such. But then I realized there were still meta's like Tier Shift and Inverse Battle who still hold permaladders, but get such low activity, to me it just doesn't add up. I already addressed this somewhere else, and people had told me it was for novelty purposes, which I get to some extent. That is why I loved the idea of Rotational ladders, because as mentioned previously, they will help freshen up some OM's and build hype for when that meta is placed on the ladder (while the other meta's can be set for challenges). I find it gives everyone a fair chance to showcase their favorite OM's and will "freshen" up the stale system we hold currently.

This is what I can see:
Permaladders:
  • STABmons
  • AAA
  • Monotype
  • 1v1
  • Balanced Hackmons
And everything else like Battle Factory and CAP...

Rotational Ladders:
  • Mix N' Mega
  • Inheritance
  • Tier Shift
  • Inverse Battle
  • Sketchmons
  • Highest Stat Meta
2 OM's each rotation


I don't agree on removing STABmons from permaladders as it already has analyses on site juts like AAA and BH, so I think it has merited itself as an "official" OM. I also wouldn't mind seeing Monotype analyses and 1v1 ones could be interesting aswell.
 
Ok so I mainly want to address the permaladders on the main server currently, as I find that is were we should start fixing things.

Like I mentioned before, I always wondered if there was a limit to how many ladders we can hold, and what permits a meta to gain a perma or rotational ladder (which I will discuss latter). I was suprised and glad when STABmons and AAA were added to the OM ladders, it made sense as they held large playerbases and placing a permaladder can help with testing things which in turn helps with tiering and such. But then I realized there were still meta's like Tier Shift and Inverse Battle who still hold permaladders, but get such low activity, to me it just doesn't add up. I already addressed this somewhere else, and people had told me it was for novelty purposes, which I get to some extent. That is why I loved the idea of Rotational ladders, because as mentioned previously, they will help freshen up some OM's and build hype for when that meta is placed on the ladder (while the other meta's can be set for challenges). I find it gives everyone a fair chance to showcase their favorite OM's and will "freshen" up the stale system we hold currently.

This is what I can see:
Permaladders:
  • STABmons
  • AAA
  • Monotype
  • 1v1
  • Balanced Hackmons
And everything else like Battle Factory and CAP...

Rotational Ladders:
  • Mix N' Mega
  • Inheritance
  • Tier Shift
  • Inverse Battle
  • Sketchmons
  • Highest Stat Meta
2 OM's each rotation


I don't agree on removing STABmons from permaladders as it already has analyses on site juts like AAA and BH, so I think it has merited itself as an "official" OM. I also wouldn't mind seeing Monotype analyses and 1v1 ones could be interesting aswell.
STABmons got OM analysis because it was a permaladder, it shouldn't keep it's permaladder just because it has analysis. This a logical falllacy. It is also a less active ladder then Tier Shift according to the raw numbers. STABmons just doesn't deserve a permanent ladder anymore. Not based on activity. While i don't want to see it removed from main entirely it doesn't make any sense to give it a permeant ladder.
 

Uselesscrab

You don't have to be a genius, but it helps to
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By the way Funbot28, HSM should absolutely not be considered for a ladder because it was by far one of the least popular Other Metagames of the Month, receiving only one-tenth of the plays of Sketchmons, for instance. I do like the idea of having a two-slot rotation like that, however.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Time to revive this thread again...

As the new year approaches, I feel that OM's can set itself a resolution to accomplish for the betterment of the meta's and the playerbase. I will only address two urgent tasks that I beleive should be set to accomplish for 2016.

Task 1) Implement Rotation Ladders:
This is something that I had already mentioned previously, but I strongly feel that we should implement rotation ladders for OM's for like every three months (equaling to four rotations each year). By rotating two OM's each round, we would be able to "freshen up" meta's that seemed to die down on the main server recently, and we can also implement ladders for popular OM's which the players have been begging to have, and there will be no "downside" per say as they are not technically permanent (because apparently there are strict rules for this). Players would be able to enjoy these meta's for that specific round, and would theoretically be hyped to enjoy the new meta's which would be implemented next round. The only problem that may come up with this is ranking issues, but most /ranks are plagued with OMoTM for OM players. We can have meta's such as STABmons and Inverse Battle be able to have more activity, without removing them the main server permanently. The other meta's that are not in the current round can be implemented as challenge options as well. I know many OM players who would like to see this happen, and by implementing this for the new year, I personally believe we can see a large growth in the OM's playerbase. The list I would like to see is in my prevoius post (removing STABmons as a permanent ladder and added to rotating and Highest Stat Meta possibly be replaced by a more popular OM).

Task 2) Advertise the Aqua Server:
This is what really bothers me currently, and was also previously mentioned. For those who don't know, Aqua is a server that hosts multiple OM's which are implemented and runned by Snaquaza. However, there extremely low activity with the highest amount of players ive seen maxed out to 8-10. This is a huge issue, as Aqua can be a server which enables players to playtest with various different OM's being created each month, by not overflowing the main server with OM's. I strongly support what others had mentioned, which is creating a thread in the OM's sub-forum, which would allow players access to recent developments being made to the server, and acting as an overall discussion point on the various different meta's it hosts. Hopefully, this would increase the playerbase on Aqua. It was also suggested to give it the title of the official "OM Server" due to it being the only one hosting these much metas. I really hope this gets implemented as well, as there is an alarming recurrence of OM's dying due to most of the discussion being based on theorymon and not actual play (this applies to past OMoTM as well). The problem which was suggested would be that it can not always be surveyed by Snaq. To solve this, we can have various top OM players to supervise the sever on a regular bases.

I really hope we can achieve this goals, as it would greatly increase the quality of OM's in general imo.
 
Also, and as a way to develop the metagames we've already made, we could give OMs with permanent ladders on the main server a subforum each in OM so they can develop their own resources. Right now, with those resources mixed with other OMs that do not have such a big playerbase, is a bit messy.
 

Josh

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The only OM even worth considering for its own subforum is Monotype, none of the others have enough of a playerbase for it to be worthwhile. Even that doesn't have enough activity imo. However, Eevee's suggestion of only the main OMs in the main subforum (any with a permaladder) and then all the other OMs such as Poison, Itemize, etc being in a subforum sounds like a great idea and I strongly support that.
 
The only OM even worth considering for its own subforum is Monotype, none of the others have enough of a playerbase for it to be worthwhile. Even that doesn't have enough activity imo. However, Eevee's suggestion of only the main OMs in the main subforum (any with a permaladder) and then all the other OMs such as Poison, Itemize, etc being in a subforum sounds like a great idea and I strongly support that.
To add onto this, can we have an 'Archived OMs' or something to commemorate old OMs that don't receive a lot of activity to prevent necrobumps and also keep the subforum tidy? Agree with all of this post though.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
However, Eevee's suggestion of only the main OMs in the main subforum (any with a permaladder) and then all the other OMs such as Poison, Itemize, etc being in a subforum sounds like a great idea and I strongly support that.
Won't this give even less exposure to the "non main OM's"? People going to the OM forum right now for the "main OM's" sake might stumble upon something unrelated or not directly related to the "main OM's" by accident and find it interesting, and possibly contribute or participate.
 
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I have one huge question, why is there no OM server?
I've been looking for about three hours, and nothing. I found one that was othermetascentral.psim.us but it was offline, so I'm guessing it was dropped. But I see no reason why. I see the point of "so many metas that just die out" well then have a server with all the OMs have a permaladders. For example, I've really been trying to find if I can play averagemons somewhere, it's one of my favorite OMs and for the life of me I can't find it (if there is a place to play it PLEASE tell me). In fact I was going to make a draft league based around averagemons. So it wouled benefit to have that, and I'm sure everyone has a meta they've been dying to play. So, yeah?
 

baconbagon

free stabmons
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I have one huge question, why is there no OM server?
I've been looking for about three hours, and nothing. I found one that was othermetascentral.psim.us but it was offline, so I'm guessing it was dropped. But I see no reason why. I see the point of "so many metas that just die out" well then have a server with all the OMs have a permaladders. For example, I've really been trying to find if I can play averagemons somewhere, it's one of my favorite OMs and for the life of me I can't find it (if there is a place to play it PLEASE tell me). In fact I was going to make a draft league based around averagemons. So it wouled benefit to have that, and I'm sure everyone has a meta they've been dying to play. So, yeah?
aqua.psim.us is probably the server where you'll find all the OMs you want.

lol gooser i ninjad you good
 
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baconbagon

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THANK YOU OH MY GOD. The point is there tho.
np! If you look through the thread a little tho, you'll see we had a bit of discussion concerning Aqua becoming the 'official OM server' and advertising / promoting it more. Try reading through some of that conversation, and you'll understand more of the thinking behind the decision
 

MAMP

mamp
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I have one huge question, why is there no OM server?
I've been looking for about three hours, and nothing. I found one that was othermetascentral.psim.us but it was offline, so I'm guessing it was dropped. But I see no reason why. I see the point of "so many metas that just die out" well then have a server with all the OMs have a permaladders. For example, I've really been trying to find if I can play averagemons somewhere, it's one of my favorite OMs and for the life of me I can't find it (if there is a place to play it PLEASE tell me). In fact I was going to make a draft league based around averagemons. So it wouled benefit to have that, and I'm sure everyone has a meta they've been dying to play. So, yeah?
Just an FYI, Averagemons can be played through challenge on the main server
 
No we really don't need to advertise Aqua. The OM room is the heart of the OM community, and any advertisement of Aqua has the potential to split that community. Our ladders on the main server already don't get enough usage. Advertisement of Aqua is Snaq's responsiblity. If an OM can be played on Aqua it should be made clear on the smogon thread where that OM can be played. That's the only "advertising" we should do for Aqua or any other unofficial server. Smogon shouldn't be responsible for advertising an unofficial server, that doesn't make any sense at all.
 
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Two random ideas:

1. Wouldn't it be more convenient to have a subforum for each permanent OM?
They are entirely diffrent gamemodes after all, so it would make it look a little more serious since that's the way standard metagame forums are set up. It would also make it more convenient for people looking for things related to a specific perm OM.

2. How about we replace the least popular permanent Original Metagame every now and then (once a year?) with the most popular OMotM from that period?
 
Two random ideas:

1. Wouldn't it be more convenient to have a subforum for each permanent OM?
They are entirely diffrent gamemodes after all, so it would make it look a little more serious since that's the way standard metagame forums are set up. It would also make it more convenient for people looking for things related to a specific perm OM.
The only OM even worth considering for its own subforum is Monotype, none of the others have enough of a playerbase for it to be worthwhile. Even that doesn't have enough activity imo. However, Eevee's suggestion of only the main OMs in the main subforum (any with a permaladder) and then all the other OMs such as Poison, Itemize, etc being in a subforum sounds like a great idea and I strongly support that.
 
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EV

Banned deucer.
Update:
  • Added an OM Archive to shuffle locked/outdated metagames out of the main forum.
  • Added the Monotype subforum!

Similarly to PU, Monotype was given this subforum because it has the size and activity of a dedicated userbase that warrants its own separate space.
 

Celticpride

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So I'm not the type to post in this subforum much, but I, and I'm assuming other non-OM people do as well, occasionally play Other Metas such as STABmons, AAA, Sketchmons and other things just for a change of pace. However, the one thing that sticks out in my mind, and I think someone brought this up a little on the first page, is how a lot of these OMs are slow to ban things and even reintroduce Ubers at the same time. Like everything that's unbanned in AAA is still really unhealthy, especially things with "worthless" abilities like DeoD and DeoS. STABmons is similar with things like Icicle Crash Kyu-B (with DD potential!) running around. There's an awful lot of things in Sketchmons that seem just stupid to face. And Monotype virtually does away with the basic idea of resists and creates what seems to be a very Rock-Paper-Scissors heavy environment (yeah I know some people fiercely defend that meta as "competitive" but that's a really hard sell to me when resists hardly exist lol). It's not like these metas usually add both offensively and defensively either, as by their nature it's usually just pumping in more offense and that requires more aggressive banning imo.

Yeah I understand it can be hard to get rid of broken stuff in a timely manner, people have other things to do in their lives, OMotM has a small window, etc but if you are seeking to legitimize yourselves among the larger Smogon community (which you seem to be considering Eevee's OP and the theme throughout this thread, as well as things like Other Meta Grand Slam existing) I wouldn't undersell what I talked about above. I see Kyu-B with its one weakness (lack of physical Ice STAB) patched or DeoD running around with Mold Breaker or Magic Bounce I tend to think "this meta's a joke but let's try out Broken Mon XYZ" not "I want to play this in a competitive Open or Circuit tour where the idea is to try to win a competitive game" and I would assume you would prefer the latter over the former as the general sentiment.

Again that all sounds harsh, the idea of Other Metas is intriguing, and I had a ton of fun doing a similar concept to most OMs in OU Theorymon. Just figure I'd offer an outsiders opinion what seems to be a fundamental issue, at least to me, across multiple OMs.
 
So I'm not the type to post in this subforum much, but I, and I'm assuming other non-OM people do as well, occasionally play Other Metas such as STABmons, AAA, Sketchmons and other things just for a change of pace. However, the one thing that sticks out in my mind, and I think someone brought this up a little on the first page, is how a lot of these OMs are slow to ban things and even reintroduce Ubers at the same time. Like everything that's unbanned in AAA is still really unhealthy, especially things with "worthless" abilities like DeoD and DeoS. STABmons is similar with things like Icicle Crash Kyu-B (with DD potential!) running around. There's an awful lot of things in Sketchmons that seem just stupid to face. And Monotype virtually does away with the basic idea of resists and creates what seems to be a very Rock-Paper-Scissors heavy environment (yeah I know some people fiercely defend that meta as "competitive" but that's a really hard sell to me when resists hardly exist lol). It's not like these metas usually add both offensively and defensively either, as by their nature it's usually just pumping in more offense and that requires more aggressive banning imo.

Yeah I understand it can be hard to get rid of broken stuff in a timely manner, people have other things to do in their lives, OMotM has a small window, etc but if you are seeking to legitimize yourselves among the larger Smogon community (which you seem to be considering Eevee's OP and the theme throughout this thread, as well as things like Other Meta Grand Slam existing) I wouldn't undersell what I talked about above. I see Kyu-B with its one weakness (lack of physical Ice STAB) patched or DeoD running around with Mold Breaker or Magic Bounce I tend to think "this meta's a joke but let's try out Broken Mon XYZ" not "I want to play this in a competitive Open or Circuit tour where the idea is to try to win a competitive game" and I would assume you would prefer the latter over the former as the general sentiment.

Again that all sounds harsh, the idea of Other Metas is intriguing, and I had a ton of fun doing a similar concept to most OMs in OU Theorymon. Just figure I'd offer an outsiders opinion what seems to be a fundamental issue, at least to me, across multiple OMs.
Hey celtic. :]

I don't understand your Kyurem-B argument at all. Sure, on paper the physical Ice STAB rocks, and Kyurem-B is S Rank, it's not overpowered at all. In such an offensive metagame, it's so pressured to even attack, and Jirachi, Mega Scizor, and Heatran can easily come in on Dragon Dance sets, the former can even use it for set up bait. Mega Scizor in particular is one of the reasons Kyurem-B isn't broken. Then there's things like FakeSpeed running around everywhere, and Mega Lopunny even beats Kyurem-B one-on-one. Choice Scarf Jirachi, Terrakion, and Keldeo all outspeed and take it on as well. Sure, you look at just Kyurem-B with Icicle Crash / Dragon dance and it shouts: broken!! but with all the things in the metagame to stop it, that I've listed for example, it's really just awesome, but not overpowered.

So just justifying that, can also be run with other metagames. On the paper, from an outsider's perspective, sure, things look broken, but when they get to look more in-depth, they really aren't. I personally think Mega Altaria is broken in OU, for example, but I'm not an expert in the metagame. And I do understand why it's not. I think that issue with making more bans is that it makes everything more complex. People could not understand a Keldeo ban in STABmons, even though it could potentially be noticed. Making the metagames more complex makes it even harder to get into the metagames.

Just my two cents.
 
So I'm not the type to post in this subforum much, but I, and I'm assuming other non-OM people do as well, occasionally play Other Metas such as STABmons, AAA, Sketchmons and other things just for a change of pace. However, the one thing that sticks out in my mind, and I think someone brought this up a little on the first page, is how a lot of these OMs are slow to ban things and even reintroduce Ubers at the same time. Like everything that's unbanned in AAA is still really unhealthy, especially things with "worthless" abilities like DeoD and DeoS. STABmons is similar with things like Icicle Crash Kyu-B (with DD potential!) running around. There's an awful lot of things in Sketchmons that seem just stupid to face. And Monotype virtually does away with the basic idea of resists and creates what seems to be a very Rock-Paper-Scissors heavy environment (yeah I know some people fiercely defend that meta as "competitive" but that's a really hard sell to me when resists hardly exist lol). It's not like these metas usually add both offensively and defensively either, as by their nature it's usually just pumping in more offense and that requires more aggressive banning imo.

Yeah I understand it can be hard to get rid of broken stuff in a timely manner, people have other things to do in their lives, OMotM has a small window, etc but if you are seeking to legitimize yourselves among the larger Smogon community (which you seem to be considering Eevee's OP and the theme throughout this thread, as well as things like Other Meta Grand Slam existing) I wouldn't undersell what I talked about above. I see Kyu-B with its one weakness (lack of physical Ice STAB) patched or DeoD running around with Mold Breaker or Magic Bounce I tend to think "this meta's a joke but let's try out Broken Mon XYZ" not "I want to play this in a competitive Open or Circuit tour where the idea is to try to win a competitive game" and I would assume you would prefer the latter over the former as the general sentiment.

Again that all sounds harsh, the idea of Other Metas is intriguing, and I had a ton of fun doing a similar concept to most OMs in OU Theorymon. Just figure I'd offer an outsiders opinion what seems to be a fundamental issue, at least to me, across multiple OMs.
What I think you don't understand here is how hard it actually is to determine what is and is not ban worthy. Due to an inability to perform "true" suspect tests thanks to our small player bases, what is and isn't banned will usually come down to the tier leader's or council members' subjective opinions (as much as we try to avoid that) and even in metagames where people have a vote to decide on bans, it can be argued and is very likely that these votes are still flawed because voting requirements are very easy to get (OM ladders are, in general, very easy to climb). And as much as some of us proud OMers would swear otherwise, OM players in general aren't as good as battling as most standard players are, meaning these decisions come down to less skilled players (EDIT: I'm not trying to say OM players suck here for the OM players reading this, I'm just saying since OMs are less competitive we inevitably aren't as serious about things as in Standard.)

I'm not trying to be harsh either, but this type of call to action to "ban the obviously broken shit" isn't going to get anything done because it doesn't offer any solution. What would actually change things is if you and other tour players actually voiced your concerns about potentially broken things in the respective metagame threads - the more good players we have voicing their opinions, the easier we can get things done. We listen, we promise. I realize of course that, as you say, Other Metagames are just something you do on the side and not really any primary concern of yours. But until this situation changes and the people who think the ban lists are shit actually come forward with their concerns, nothing will happen.

I wouldn't say OMGS is anything official either, as much as just a fun tourney. There's a reason it's not part of the official Grand Slam (and if it was I would agree your concerns would be of the upmost importance to immediately fix).
 
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