Suspect AAA Suspect Test #4: Poison Heal (Information + Voter Identification Thread)

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Isaiah

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(:Toxic Orb:) Why (Suspect Reasoning):
Poison Heal (ph; pheal) has more than established itself as a staple in Almost Any Ability. It gives a wide variety of Pokemon passive recovery they might not have otherwise, notably creates a pseudo immunity to Non-Volatile Status Effects (which I'll refer to as "status" for the remainder of this), and "absorbs" moves like Knock Off which would otherwise cripple the user or its teammates. While there are certainly prominent users such as Garchomp, Snorlax, and Tapu Fini, in general Poison Heal can be used on virtually any Pokemon looking to bolster its overall utility. Protect scouting adds to this utility, making it extremely difficult to offensively deal with a Poison Heal user who is able to consistently check what move is being used [especially against Choice-locked opponents] and then switch to an appropriate answer. That being said, it's not as if Poison Heal is impossible to counter. Ability-changing moves such as Skill Swap, Gastro Acid, and Worry Seed, are temporarily able to prevent the passive recovery, and offensive pressure through hazards and high-damaging moves make it possible to keep specific Poison Heal users from gaining back too much health. Because Poison Heal creates a nearly irrevocable immunity to common methods of applying pressure over the course of a game and does not give much room for error on the part of the opponent, scrutiny in the form of a suspect test is well warranted at this time.

The primary reasons for any Pokemon to run Poison Heal are fairly straightforward: they gain access to passive healing (+12.5% every turn), an immunity to status effects once activated, and the ability to become a switchin to Knock Off users. In practice, this means would-be standard means of applying pressure like Lava Plume/Scald [burns] and status moves like Toxic or Will-O-Wisp lose a significant amount of their viability right away, making it extremely difficult to actively wear down a Poison Heal target over the course of any given game. The setup with most users is to run Protect, at least one STAB move, and then two coverage/utility options to round it off. This is where Garchomp in particular excels, because while it will pretty much always run Protect and Earthquake, it can choose between Swords Dance, Dragon Tail, Stone Edge, Facade, and even Stealth rock to fill up its last two slots—and it can pull every single one of them off. Snorlax is known for its Curse sets featuring Facade and usually either Darkest Lariat or Earthquake, with Heat Crash [and Gastro Acid] seeing a reasonable amount of use as well. Lastly, Tapu Fini can run Calm Mind together with Moonblast and Scald if it isn't running more defensive options like Knock Off, Defog, and Haze. While there are other Poison Heal users capable of setup (Zarude, for example) all of the aforementioned users contribute to the same trend: defensive Pokemon able to pose a significant enough offensive threat to make them viable as hybrids. The effects of protect scouting exacerbate this phenomenon further by creating 50/50s where an attacker—especially if choice-locked—will rarely ever be able to take advantage of a Poison Heal pokemon who has substantial Protect PP remaining. If they choose the super effective move and the pheal mon protects, they can now switch out to an appropriate counter. If they choose a neutral move or pivoting move, the pheal mon can subsequently in and either go for an attack or setup even further. Even powerful breakers like Noivern and Blacephalon can find themselves getting PPstalled by the combination of protect + Boomburst/Mind Blown switchin without ever actually making substantial progress in terms of damage dealt. This has caused the meta to develop into one where offensive breakers as a whole—even the ones with with setup moves like Gengar or Tapu Bulu for example—aren't actually able to break through Poison Heal cores without either taking huge risks or predicting perfectly with an infallible consistency.

So then, how is Poison Heal usually dealt with? As stated before, moves like Skill Swap, Gasto Acid, and Worry Seed are directly able to reverse the passive recovery from Poison Heal, and users such as Mew, Blissey/Chansey, and Toxapex are generally the ones dishing them out. In practice, Pokemon carrying ability-changing moves run defensive abilities like Dauntless Shield, Unaware, and Prankster so they can switch into phealers and hold them back for a time. The issue is that more often than not, these mons are switching into a phealer that has already boosted up to +1 or +2 in attack or special attack, meaning that they're actually able to offensively threaten their should-be "switchins" using Calm Mind boosted Moonblasts/Scalds or Curse/Swords Dance boosted Earthquakes and Facades unless they're all Unaware. As such, it's not always enough to be able to switch a Poison Heal user's ability to something else—there's always a cost in the form of health lost. Outside of "techs" like the ones mentioned previously, the other method is to attempt to pressure pheal mons with enough damage (or at least the threat of it) to both wear them down and prevent cycles of switching in and clicking protect to double the healing to 25% over the course of two turns. In practice, "regen pheal cycling" means that said pressure isn't ever realistically exerted—switching back and forth between regenerator Pokemon and a protect-scouting phealer(s) make it easy to deprive breakers of any chance at making meaningful progress in a game.

In essence, Poison Heal doesn't leave much room for counterplay outside of very specific examples—the majority of which end up struggling in practice or failing to break completely. It's for the reasons above and any others that might've been overlooked that Poison Heal more than deserves a suspect test at this point in time.

How (Suspect Details):
During a Suspect test, each player must climb the ladder until they've acquired the GXE necessary to participate in the voting. Primarily, everyone that participates needs to make an alt account following these guidelines:
  • Every game must be played on the official Pokemon Showdown! site and on a new account (creation date no earlier than today, March 1) with "PHAAA [Nick]"--for example, I could create one called "PHAAA T" to ladder with.
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 25 games, and you must have a minimum GXE of 75.
  • Poison Heal will be allowed on the ladder during the suspect
  • The suspect test will go for two weeks and end on Monday, March 15th (11:59 pm CST)
  • Upon meeting requirements to vote, post the proof in this thread. Feel free to also use this thread as a means to disseminate topical opinions regarding whether or not Poison Heal should be banned.
  • It is mandatory to provide proof of ownership of the alt account as well. (Post a picture of your reqs with your smogon name featured)
As usual, the actual voting will take place in the Blind Voting Forum, so posting anything other than proof of reqs and discussion isn't necessary.
 
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Banning Poison Heal would change the metagame drastically and permanently, so it's not a decision that one should take on a whim. I'm still not entirely sure what I will vote for, as I find good arguments for both sides.

On the one hand, Poison Heal is extremely centralizing, and despite a rather small number of common users (compared to Regenerator), these mons alone largely define teambuilding. Tapu Fini, Snorlax and Garchomp are perhaps the three most defining forces in the metagame currently. The other ones, Zarude, Glastrier, Tyranitar, Kommo-o, Landorus-T, while not nearly as pressing, are also threatening due to how this ability removes a lot of the usual counterplay.

On the other hand, there are still several ways to deal each of them. Ability manipulation is one way to deal with any of them, but it is not so difficult to take them all into account in the builder, especially when building non-Offense teams.
All of them : Gastro Acid, Worry Seed, Skill Swap Toxapex/Mew/Slowbro/Ferrothorn/Blissey/Chansey/Palossand/Nihilego

Garchomp : Ice Beam on a wall like Mew or Slowbro, U-Turn wall into something that ohkoes (Koko, Weavile/Mamo/Glastrier kinda, Scarf Ice Beam user), Tapu Fini can be iffy but it's an answer, Tapu Bulu, Roar Swampert/Suicune, Unaware.

Tapu Fini : Tapu Bulu/Zarude/Dhelmise, Desolate Land or Water Absorb Heatran/Gengar/Excadrill/Volcarona, Ferrothorn, Glastrier

Snorlax : Iron Defense Corviknight/Skarmory/Kommo-O, Mummy Skarmory/Corviknight/Ferrothorn, Roar Swampert/Suicune/Skarmory/Heatran,
The counterplay is restricted that's for sure, but it's usually very consistent due to how predictable these mons are. I kind of like the current metagame but if we consider passive recovery as a problem right now, then the solution is banning Poison Heal for sure.
 

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Ladder people have no mercy when it comes to bad wi-fi...

I'm gonna be voting Ban on this one, the defensive counterplay to PH is much more awkward than using PH yourself. There's way too much Mummy for what it does (though it's not completely unviable without PH), ability removal takes up valuable slots that you want/need so that you can check other mons (think statusless Blissey/mono-attacking or no Wisp Mew/Toxicless Pex) as well as forcing you into the specific defensive options that learn it in the first place. Other defensive options like Heatran tend to have struggling niches as they have to work around their complete passivity to opposing PH, and typically they also end up competing with Mews/Mummy Corvs/blobs as running too many of these mons together leaves you unable to make progress in some matchups. This level of impact on the builder is pretty hard to deal with properly because once you're shoehorned into recycling the same defensive cores + the few offensive mons that actually threaten some PH users it's very easy to end up weak to all sorts of other things that exploit those cores (yay Genesect).

From a playing perspective you also have to consider a lot that you cant really account for in the builder because there's simply too much going on. I regularly see top players in this meta just completely get the wrong end of a PH or regen cycle and gradually sink and lose because it's much easier for their opponent to make progress. Personally I take this as a sign that passive recovery has definitely gone too far in terms of how easy it is to fit on teams vs how easy it is to actually deal with. Normally when that isnt happening I'm usually seeing some threat blow right through the opposing team, either because they failed to prep for it or sometimes just because one player has access to favourable cycles that let them bring in breakers consistently and repeatedly over the course of the game until whatever slightly unreliable check for that mon eventually falls. This comes back to what I was saying about defensive cores being too predictable, to the point where they get exploited fairly often while the opponent may be unable to hit back.

https://pokepast.es/897268e3dd44c005 - webs I used (lolol Togekiss). Be careful though, ladder likes cteaming offense.
 
I think I'll vote do not ban. Here's my reasoning.

- The metagame is good as it is (baring Genesect). There isn't as much freedom in the builder as in other tiers but I think that's the nature of AAA. There will always be top tier threats that you need to deal with by using one of the few answers. The metagame still leaves room for every kind of team styles, and experimenting new things is pleasant and doable. We really don't need a total overthrow imo.

- Poison Heal users aren't that restrictive in the builder. I already made a non-exhaustive list of ways to deal with each of them here. I don't think they're nearly as restrictive as the most common breakers right now. As stresh mentionned, you often have to use a moveslot for them ; but 1) ability manipulation is always good to have, and more often than not it ends up being useful in various situations, 2) using a movelot for a group of mons that you want to deal with is the basis of teambuilding. Poison Heal users are just one more group of mons that you need to deal with somehow.

- They deal with each other. That wasn't brought up but it's important. Snorlax deals with Tapu Fini very consistently. Tapu Fini isn't a good Poison Heal Garchomp answer but it beats it if it comes in on anything but SD. DTail Garchomp deals with Snorlax. If you look at the other Poison Heal users, they're also good at doing that. Glastrier deals with Fini, Zarude deals with Garchomp, and we can go on for a while. The presence of Poison Heal balances itself to some extent.

- They have serious weaknesses. We all know what Poison Heal does, it makes you safe from Knock Off and any type of status while giving you huge passive recovery. But it also comes with some considerable weaknesses. 1) You need a moveslot for Protect. One consequence of this is that you can't afford to run utility on them, since it would make them too passive. Protect + 2 atks already takes 3 slots, and the last slot has to be setup, otherwise you're too passive. That leads to 2) They can be hard to build with, since they provide no utility, no pivot and no speed control. That's self-explanatory. 3) They hate hazards. Rocks / Spikes restrict their movements a lot, and forces the use of Protect in situations where it's unsafe, or a loss of momentum. Hazards make them much easier to exploit and chip down. They also sometimes remove their ability to come in on breakers. For example Snorlax comes in quite freely on Blacephalon with no Rocks up, but with rocks up it's already dangerous.

- I don't want stall to become mainstream in tournaments. Poison Heal is one of the reasons stall isn't that great currently, maybe the main one. Stall just can't wear PH users down and struggles with them setting up repeatedly. I like this.

My point isn't to pretend Poison Heal is bad or insignificant. I already said it but it's a driving force in gen8aaa. I just don't think it needs to go.
 
Been a minute, it was quite fun to ladder again ngl and I had some really enjoyable games (shoutouts Quantum Tesseract ). I ran HO, stall and balance and they were all pretty good. I didn't find the meta super frustrating like others say (admittedly I only played a little).


Ran a couple PH-less HO and still managed to beat stall. It's much rougher for balance admittedly, but it's not like stall is unbeatable without PH. There's a few good breakers who aren't really used rn because they're hard to fit, but could make a comeback if balance teams stop dedicating slots to specific fat setups and broken shit like Noivern.

Magic guard is kinda underated as well and would probably see more use on setup in the even that PH does get banned. Personally in the event of a single ability clause, Magic Guard would be the most affected one in my teams. As Atha said I don't think double PH is very good on one team.

I brought up the cycle of PH threats checking eachother earlier, but I was using it at the time to say that PH is broken and that your PH matchup can decide games. I don't think that's entirely true, but I do find it odd to say that PH is ok because PH checks it. Oftentimes it brings the game to a complete halt as one player is forced into their hardcounter and protect starts getting clicked on both sides.
This seems like a weird point, but whenever I played in a PH-less AAA meta the most enjoyable aspect is how much more fluid the games were when it doesn't stop every 5 turns for stalemates and protect spam. Also makes choice attackers much better, Mamoswine for example is gains so much longevity without life orb chip and really appreciate the extra power from band.

I'm torn. I'm not convinced it's broken, altho I'm leaning this way. But I also disagree that we can't have a balanced and fun AAA meta without PH.

Here's my low IQ screens HO for anyone interested: https://pokepast.es/d6ad9be3f1134728
 
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