AccidentalGreed's List - Do These OU Need Revamps?

AccidentalGreed

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#1
Hey all. Following Pocket's actions, I have created my own discussion thread on a specific list of Pokemon, and which ones need revamps or small changes. I will post my courses of action (in addition to test results), and I'd like people here to post on what they think needs attention / fixing. Here it is.

Test results will be posted below each action in this format


Amoonguss:

-Regenerator definitely needs to be implemented here. Like, immediately.
~Well, this is pretty inevitable.

-Rewrite the analysis a little so that Amoonguss seems more relevant to the metagame, which is definitely is and will always be.
-Rewrite approved

-Clear Smog mention of Specially Defensive set, and maybe test out a physically defensive one?
~This will be the new set:

[SET]
Name: Defensive
move 1: Spore
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Sludge Bomb
move 4: Clear Smog / Stun Spore
item: Leftovers
ability: Regenerator
nature: Calm
evs: 220 HP / 28 SpA / 252 SpD

OU worthy: Yes
Worth a revamp: Yes

Celebi:

-Rename "Navi."

-Nothing too complicated, since we basically wrote everything it can do besides Swords Dance and SubSeed (needs a set? Get back to me on this)

-Tweak the EVs on Specially Defensive

-Reorder sets to relevancy and viability

-Add in threats and emphasize Celebi's value in the metagame (against threats like Breloom and Keldeo)

~approved, and all changes will be implemented in the revamp

OU worthy: Yes
Worth a revamp: Yes


Cresselia:

-Make Ice Beam main slash for 3rd move on the Standard set

-Mention Sunny Day on the standard set in AC

-Emphasize Cresselia's strengths on a Sun team

-Retest SubCM, remove if necessary
~Very subpar and unheard of, removing.

OU worthy: hardly, but yes
Worth a revamp: No



Dusknoir:

-Delete the analysis entirely. There are some things that this thing wishes it CAN do, and some QC members have shown agreement with this.

OU worthy: No
Worth a revamp: No

Froslass:

-No major changes outside of shaping up the analysis to be more relevant to the current metagame.

-A mention of specific Hidden Powers.

OU worthy: hardly, but yes
Worth a revamp: No

Heracross:

-Requires a retest of certain sets, since some of these sets don't seem relevant enough in the game now.
~Pocket Approved

-Test Moxie sets

-Test how viable Sleep Talk is

OU worthy: Yes
Worth a revamp: Yes

Kingdra:

-Most Rain Dance / DD sets require 228 EVs to outrun Scarf Latios after a boost. Taking some extra HP EVs doesn't really matter.

-Retest Mixed Dragon Dance, tweak EVs

-Retest Choice Specs for viability, tweak EVs

-Scrap Lum Berry completely from ChestoRest

-Test out some new DD sets, such as Double Dance (Rain Dance + Dragon Dance), SubDD, and Dragon Dance + Disable (Sacrifices Waterfall for Protect and Disable, allowing Kingdra to bypass phazing and status)

-Rewrite some parts of analysis, since I wrote certain parts too long

~Screw it, just revamp the whole thing

OU worthy: Yes
Worth a revamp: Yes

Magneton:

-Slash Salac Berry and tweak EVs accordingly on SubCharge set
~Will do

-Make SubSalac its own set?
~too similar to the other subcharge set; just slash Salac on SubCharge

-Make Hidden Power Ice a slash on SubCharge and possibly SubSalac
~Will do

OU worthy: Yes
Worth a revamp: No

Ninetales:

-Definitely needs Pain Split on several sets, although I don't know how effective it would be in practice. Testing.
~Pain Split is viable only on the Specially Defensive set

-Retest Choice Specs, since I've never seen it in action, nor acknowledged its viability
~Deleting entirely, thanks to QC approval. Ninetales has only, what? 81 SpA?

-Retest Nasty Plot, since I've never seen it in action, nor acknowledged its viability
~I'm convinced

-Remove Special Attacker, since it's a redundant set

~Approved by Shrang

-Scrap Toxic from the Sunny Day set; Will-o-Wisp does more to targets after three turns
~Approved

-Scrap Hypnosis from the Choice Specs set (if it passes the Retest)
~lolnope

-Just revamp the whole damn thing

OU worthy: Yes
Worth a revamp: Yes

Rotom-C:

-Shrang: Merge "Special Scout" with "Choice Specs" and call it "Special Attacker". I need to distinguish the two sets.

-No major changes
~The analysis will not be majorly changed outside of new threats

OU worthy: Yes
Worth a revamp: No

Shaymin:

-Retest all sets; the Shaymin analysis is basically cookie-cut from the 4th generation one, and the prose is generic

-Pay special attention to SubSeed

OU worthy: It's an alright attacker
Worth a revamp: No, not really

Stoutland:

-Add Superpower to Choice Band set
~will be implemented in the revamped/rewritten analysis

-Retest for general viability; I've always doubted its viability, especially when it's hard for the dog to get past certain defensive Pokemon in the metagame.
~Proven viable

OU worthy: Rare, but very viable
Worth a revamp: Yes

Uxie:

-Retest for general viability; I think it'll pass, but this thing has massive competition with the likes of other defensive/support Pokemon with competent typings
~Due to some thoughts from QC, we have decided that outside of Uxie's unique combination of Dual Screens | Memento | U-turn / Stealth Rock, it has no reason to wander in OU due to heavy competition with Deoxys-D, as well as other support-oriented Pokemon.

OU worthy: No
Worth a revamp: No

Wobbuffet:

-Test out Custap Berry (and prove its release)
~Custap Berry isn't released, it seems, so nope.jpeg

-looks fine overall

OU worthy: Yes
Worth a revamp: No
 

doughboy

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#2
Amoongus

Amoonguss' analysis is pretty small and it almost looks like it needs to be beefed up a bit >_> For the EV spread I would include 28 SpA EV's to always breaks Keldeo's +2 Substitute.

Heracross

I love Moxiecross to death, but as of now the metagame is not very kind to him. Some of the most common and hardest to handle threats are Flying types like Tornadus and Dragonite. The things he has going for him are being one of the best Sleep Absorbers in the tier since both Breloom and Amoonguss fear him considering how hard he hits.

Celebi

Celebi hasn't really changed much ohter than the specially defensive set's ability to counter Keldeo. I really wish Nasty Plot+Baton Pass was a set because it does it very well and there are plenty of new special attackers in the tier that can receive it. One thing, who the hell uses Calm Mind Celebi? I literally have only seen it once since I have ever started playing lol
 

Pocket

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#3
Amoonguss definitely deserves a revamp. The original analysis is really outdated and skimpy, since nobody really ever considered using Amoonguss in OU. Regeneration, Keldeo, and SD Breloom change that. I am pretty sure we need to optimize the spread to better check these threats, too. The entire analysis needs a big update.

Celebi may need to be revamped for a bigger emphasis in checking Thundurus-T, Keldeo, and Breloom

SubCM Cresselia screams OO to me. Easy TTar / Scizor bait

It's notable that Froslass has Pain Split now.

I also agree that Heracross deserves a revamp, since Moxie + Salac / Scarf can really enhance Heracross's prowess.

Sunny Day Ninetales > Special Attacker. Special Attacker can be removed imo, since it's pretty much a more offensive variant of the specially defensive variant, and LO is not a good item on Ninetales anyways. Sunny Day and Nasty Plot are also much better option for an offensive Ninetales, imo.

I believe Stoutland's access to Superpower is a HUGE buff enough for an entire revamp. Stoutland has been gaining popularity right at the end of BW1, and it probably deserves another serious look

Uxie is like outclassed by Deoxys-D (no Taunt sux), not OU material

tl;dr - I agree with pretty much most of your conclusions, except
1) Revamp for Amoonguss
2) Revamp for Celebi
3) Maybe -> Definite Revamp for Heracross
4) Stoutland IS OU-worthy and revamp-worthy
5) ditch Uxie plz
 
#4
Don't forget to mention that choice scarf Magneton has more of reason to be used over Magnezone since it outspeeds Tornadus-T. You should also mention that it's highly effective on triple dragon teams. (possibly even surpassing Magnezone itself)
 

alexwolf

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#6
Celebi definitely deserves a revamp, as his role changes a lot with Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T and Superpower/Aqua Tail Haxorus in the meta.

Tornadus-T is Celebi's worst nightmare, as Celebi is a free switch-in for it, unless Celebi runs T-Wave, which needs to be emphasized. Celebi is also a very solid check to Keldeo and to Choice Thundurus-T.

Celebi is the best Outrage bait in OU for Haxorus, as all of Haxorus's other moves do nothing to Celebi, so if Haxorus wants to get past Celebi, he must use Outrage, which is not so hard to predict, allowing you to bring in your faster steel type in to revenge kill, or your slower steel type to set-up/cripple, or finally your revenge killer after Celebi died.

Finally Starmie almost never runs Ice Beam, as he needs Psyshock to deal with Keldeo and Amoonguss, and Tbolt to deal with Jellicent and Gyarados, which really helps Celebi as he is now able to counter most Starmie.
 

Electrolyte

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#7
I agree with alexwolf on Celebi's need for a revamp (and was almost going to do it myself). I also never really understood why that set was called Navi.

As for NP Ninetales, it is very viable, and I think it definitely deserves a set. I use it to great effect; for example, at +2
Fire blast- 51-60% to Wish Chansey- guaranteed 2HKO
Fire blast- 60-71% to Support Blissey- guaranteed 2HKO
Fire blast- 61-73% to support Latias- guaranteed 2HKO
Energy ball- 40-47% to Sp Def Tyranitar- guaranteed 3HKO, about 25% chance 2HKO after rocks
While specstails would have to 3 HKO Chansey and only a chance of 2HKOing Blissey and Latias and a chance of 3HKOing Tyranitar.

Now of course none of this would be possible without NP, as without NP it is basically special attacker. But NP is all that this set needs to stand out, so that's why it should stay as a set.

EDIT: To add on to what Alexwolf said, Starmie deals 60-70% with Ice Beam to Celebi, while Celebi OHKO's back with leaf storm.
 

AccidentalGreed

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#8
Okay, here's the deal: I edited the OP to reflect some of the suggestions posted here. Here are the changes/results from testing:

  • Custap Berry is confirmed unreleased, so no on Custap Wobb.
  • Uxie is no longer getting an analysis
  • Dusknoir is no longer getting an analysis
  • Amoonguss will have a revamp because of new threats and subpar prose
  • Celebi will have a revamp because of new threats
  • Heracross will have a revamp because of new threats and its new ability, which is good competitively.
  • Stoutland will maintain its analysis, but will have a revamp due to new threats and subpar prose
  • Choice Specs Ninetales is no more
  • SubCM Cresselia is no more
Things I'm not sure of:

  • Shaymin
  • Rotom-C
  • Magneton's SubCharge sets being separate
  • Toxic on Ninetales
 
#9
Having written the Magneton analysis, I think that Eviolite is really the key to SubCharge's success, and although Salac Berry sounds cool, I just don't see it working on Magneton. Getting Magneton down to Salac range is much easier said than done with its terrible Special Defense and weakness to common physical moves. I think an OO mention would suffice.

I wonder how its big brother Magnezone would fare with Salac though...
 

AccidentalGreed

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#10
Thanks for the thoughts, Arctic.

Anyways, the reason I feel Magneton should have a SubSalac analysis is because due to the ridiculous amount of fast threats in the metagame, Magneton nearly does a better job than this than Magnezone due to its slightly higher Speed. I would definitely consider Magnezone if only it had just a few, and JUST a few more Speed points. However, it should be noted that Tornadus-T and Starmie still outruns Timid +1 Magnezone and revenge kills it with the appropriate move, while being outsped by Scarf Politoed is not a fun prospect at all.

Yes, Magnezone's Substitutes can survive Power Whips and Gyro Balls and Bullet Punches with impunity, while Magneton has a little less time to set up. I find it really, really annoying when Ferrothorn's Power Whips KO through anyways. However, in my experience, setting up boosts and consuming the Salac Berry is actually pretty easy, and will always result in Magneton either sweeping or weakening the opposing team enough for its fellow Water- or Dragon-type sweeper to come in.

Salac Magnezone can't really be ignored either, though IMO it's really annoying when you face random ScarfTars, and you can never kill Tornadus-T. I guess it's all about staying behind the substitute though.
 

Pocket

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#12
Things I'm not sure of:

  • Shaymin
  • Rotom-C
  • Magneton's SubCharge sets being separate
  • Toxic on Ninetales
Shaymin - the current OU analysis seems well-written, so it does not need a revamp; SCMS changes should suffice. I also believe Shaymin is viable in OU; it is just as bulky as Celebi, without the exploitable weakness Pursuit and quad weakness to U-turn. Although it does not have Nasty Plot / Calm Mind, it does have that phenomenal Seed Flare and Growth.

Rotom-C - Its Grass-typing would come in even more handy imo. It would want HP Ice to hit Thundurus-T super-effectively, but Leaf Storm still packs a punch, especially from a Specs Rotom-C. I would leave the analysis at its current state, until Rotom-C sees some major action in BW2 in the future.

Can't say much about Magneton, but the fact that it needs Eviolite to prevent Ferrothorn's Power Whip from breaking its Sub make the set's viability suspect. However, ShakeItUp said that the overall boost in bulk make this set works, so I guess we can keep it. Depending on how effective SubSalac set ends up, you may want to make Salac Berry the primary set over Eviolite. One set is enough, imo, since they both work "roughly" the same.

Yea, Will-O-Wisp > Toxic on Ninetales. Wisp cripples TTar and Hippowdon more and it's an overall superior utility move. The only advantage Toxic has is statusing Fire-types and having higher accuracy. I can see the specially-defensive set making use of Toxic with Sub & Protect, but you can remove Toxic on the Sunny Day set.
 

shrang

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#13
Well, I guess you can always stack Defense EVs into Magneton if you really want to survive those Power Whips without using Eviolite, although you do need a bucket-load to be able to do this. So far, I've gotten 12 HP / 228 Def / 16 SpA / 252 Spe. Whether this massive power drop is worth it remains to be seen, but if it's not worth using, I'd say scrap the SubCharge set altogether. Magneton's only real advantage over Magnezone is its Speed. If you want SubCharge without Salac, you may as well use Magnezone, IMO.
 

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