Adopting VGC rules for OU

[jrrrrrrr]

Now that we have official rules for the VGC tournaments, I think we should revisit an issue that was brought up in the past. It was just discovered that in Nintendo's official tournament, they will be using the infrared capabilities of DSes instead of Wi-fi to run the tournament. This doesn't impact much, but it does set a precedent of banning team previews in official tournaments.

The main argument for team previews last time was that it did not completely simulate the cartridge experience. I feel like this announcement changes things enough to warrant a discussion on the topic for our simulator play. It's pretty hard to argue that we wouldn't be simulating the game mechanics when the game's creators are doing the exact same thing. The slippery slope arguments brought up last time really aren't relevant anymore (I don't see Nintendo banning crits anytime soon), so our only concern is how much our mechanics and rules should mimic Nintendo's.

I don't want this to turn into another circular argument and I don't want this topic to get closed prematurely, so I just want to pose a question to get the discussion started: should we simulate infrared battles, which is what Nintendo is using officially in its worldwide cartridge tournaments...or should we simulate wi-fi, which is more common amongst smogoners?

 

[Nails]

The policy has always been to simulate local battles as far as I know. This would logically lead to wifi clause leaving standard play. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

When has our policy ever been to adopt local rules, especially when fourth generation was the first generation to introduce both local and wi-fi play? This is unprecedented.

We could right now adopt a policy as to which mode of gameplay we intend on simulating, which would apply to all future games. This would simplify things; however, why restrict ourselves? In the future, should one mode of play be, from a competitive standpoint, objectively superior to another (i.e. lacks a glitch found in another mode of play), we would want to be able to choose that one and not be restricted to the other by a rule we ourselves set.

In this case, we have the choice as to which mode to choose. We've been playing with wi-fi clause since the implementation of the Smogon server. Retaining it seems like the best idea to me.

 

[eric the espeon]

The answer is to support both. A VGC metagame which has a ladder and is included in major tournaments, and a WiFi (OU) metagame which is supported in the same way. Nintendo's VGC does not have team previews, but their random matchmaking does, and this is where a huge majority of the non-simulator battles between competitive players will occur. The fact that they are using local battles is simply a matter of practicality. The only reason we stated we simulated local battles in the past was because it was thought best to allow Rotom-A and Shaymin-S.

 

[Chou Toshio]

The ladder is not a tournament. This is an important key factor I think should be considered.

I can understand wanting to avoid team preview in VGC, especially since a large part of it is surprise tactics and team building specifically for the tournament. However, this is a totally different type of competitive battling than the continued fight over countless consecutive battles on the ladder.

If anything in-game is comparable to the ladder, it's wifi battles (and Wifi Random battles). Wifi is the format of international and online cartridge play. It is what connects players online, and is probably the greatest thing for competitive (cartridge) Pokemon in the history of the game. Really, Wifi should be the format for standard ladder play-- period.

While many smogonites will unfortunately scoff at what I will say here, they shouldn't, because the very large wifi community is an important (and very large and active) user base here. One could even go so far as to say the Wifi community connects us to the larger competitive battling community-- you know, the one that actually plays Pokemon, with "real" Pokemon. It's been said many times that as much as possible, it's best to avoid alienating wifi and avoid enforcing policies that creates a greater divide between wifi and simulator. Not alienating Wifi was also one of the strongest arguments for following in-game mechanics.

Now, I know that Infrared is perfectly playable in-game (it's even being used for VGC), but realistically-- how often are you actually going to use it? How many of us have large and active competitive pokemon player-bases near us? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Wifi is the only context in which the "ladder type play" could exist in-cart, so I strongly support that Wifi be the model for OU laddering. Besides, Miracle shooter and level 50 is ughh . . . to be honest, I believe not alienating the Wifi community is more important than having Rotom-A. Rotom-W is only a mid-tier OU poke anyway, and the others are nowhere close.



Putting philosophy aside and talking about actual game play, there's no question in my mind that team preview is immensely beneficial to the ladder and to Wifi battle. The issue came up in 4th Gen, and it's becoming ever more prevalent in 5th-- there are simply too many threats, offensive and defensive, to prepare for. At some point, the more threats there are, the less capable you are of preparing for them, and the more matches are decided by luck of team match up than by actual skill.

This is a problem that VGC conveniently, doesn't have. GF has side-stepped that little problem by simply enforcing an extremely harsh limitation on usable pokemon (only 5th gen pokes), which again conveniently, happens to line their pockets well by putting emphasis and show on the new Pokemon. Besides, VGC doubles was always about team matchups and strategy execution rather than countering/metagaming anyway.

OU Ladder is a completely different beast. We use all the available pokemon, a much greater list of offensive and defensive threats (yes, defensive threats ENHANCE the problem, not detract from it-- it is very possible to be swept by a Poison Heal Gliscor should you run out of special attackers/setup sweepers).

Morn as you will about the "lost art of information control," but it is impossible to deny the fact that Team Preview goes a huge way in "helping stronger players win more consistently," ie. making the game more skill-based.

 

[coyotte508]

In my opinion team preview makes the game more boring, moreover with team preview you actually have to use more standard strategies in order to win, otherwise the opponent may see what your weak point is from the start and focus on it.

I mean, of course there's more strategy, but it removes some of the fun. And you can't pull any "surprise" pokemon. And you can get fed up of it after playing a lot of battles. (which doesn't happen on real wifi, because it's all much slower)

Anyway this is Pokémon Online, with a simulator that's designed to be able to simulate various ways of playing and even custom ones, why limit ourselves to only the "Wifi" metagame with team preview?

 

[Dubulous]

Obviously Pokemon Online will be able to support modes with team preview turned both on and off. coyotte has shown time and time again an incredible drive and willingness to include new metagames. Which one should be the "official" mode, though?

I once asked Cathy about something similar to this, and she told me that the only reason Shoddy Battle simulated local wireless play is because that's what she wanted to do. I think that as a website Smogon has grown past this method of making decisions, but the point is that it doesn't really matter if we decide we want team preview on or off.

I think that this should be voted on.

 

[Nails]

The only reason we stated we simulated local battles in the past was because it was thought best to allow Rotom-A and Shaymin-S.

It's still precedent.

This seems like a diversity vs skill sort of thing. There are a lot more pokemon that become viable because of surprise factor. And there is definitely some skill in predicting the last mon on a team based on 4-5 mons. I think this could potentially be up for a test...

As far as my preference, wifi is potentially better for 5th Gen, as it means less stuff is going to be broken (you know to keep your counter alive) so that we can get a balanced meta faster. But I honestly think that the game without wifi clause detracts from the game, as scouting out your opponent's team was a huge part of mons in Gen 4, and wifi clause almost eliminates scouting as an important part of the game, and it turns from a game of information management as well as tactics into pure tactics, which makes the meta seem a lot staler.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

The policy has always been to simulate local battles as far as I know. This would logically lead to wifi clause leaving standard play. Seems pretty simple to me.

I don't think this is the case, both for the reason Eo mentioned and the sheer fact that we've been stuck with team previews for this amount of time. We did this in 4th gen, but I was under the assumption that we were clearing the slate of those rules. I agree with what you said here, I just hate the word "always".

In this case, we have the choice as to which mode to choose. We've been playing with wi-fi clause since the implementation of the Smogon server. Retaining it seems like the best idea to me.

I don't know if "just keep the status quo" is the best solution considering how much discussion was had when it started. Rather than doing another poll topic (to avoid more foot-planting controversy), I figured this topic could be more of a pros and cons list.

The answer is to support both. A VGC metagame which has a ladder and is included in major tournaments, and a WiFi (OU) metagame which is supported in the same way. Nintendo's VGC does not have team previews, but their random matchmaking does, and this is where a huge majority of the non-simulator battles between competitive players will occur.

Good answer, this is exactly what I was hoping for out of this topic. My only question relates to how important we see "random matchmaking" battles in comparison to official battles, since the main argument was simulating game mechanics. Which mechanics would we use? Do we want our OU to look more like the official VGC or the more accessible wifi? It's worth noting that we had to invent an entire clause just to deal with wifi rules, this would simplify things a bit.

The fact that they are using local battles is simply a matter of practicality. The only reason we stated we simulated local battles in the past was because it was thought best to allow Rotom-A and Shaymin-S.

Is that restriction still in place for this gen's wifi? I don't own a DS so sorry if this is a stupid question.

In my opinion team preview makes the game more boring, moreover with team preview you actually have to use more standard strategies in order to win, otherwise the opponent may see what your weak point is from the start and focus on it.

I mean, of course there's more strategy, but it removes some of the fun. And you can't pull any "surprise" pokemon. And you can get fed up of it after playing a lot of battles. (which doesn't happen on real wifi, because it's all much slower)

As much as I agree with everything you said here, I really don't want this to turn into a discussion on the merits of removing team previews. At least not until we've decided that we're willing to consider the possibility of removing them.

Anyway this is Pokémon Online, with a simulator that's designed to be able to simulate various ways of playing and even custom ones, why limit ourselves to only the "Wifi" metagame with team preview?

It's mostly about what Smogon's stance will be in its own tournaments and on its ladder. This also has implications if the doubles/triples metagame ever becomes popular. Obviously on our simulator, anything is possible...but I wanted to know if we could make this official on-site.

I can understand wanting to avoid team preview in VGC, especially since a large part of it is surprise tactics and team building specifically for the tournament. However, this is a totally different type of competitive battling than the continued fight over countless consecutive battles on the ladder.

If anything in-game is comparable to the ladder, it's wifi battles (and Wifi Random battles). Wifi is the format of international and online cartridge play. It is what connects players online, and is probably the greatest thing for competitive (cartridge) Pokemon in the history of the game. Really, Wifi should be the format for standard ladder play-- period.

Every word of the first half of your post would still be true if you replaced the words "wifi" with "infrared".

Wifi is the only context in which the "ladder type play" could exist in-cart,

No it isn't.

Not alienating Wifi was also one of the strongest arguments for following in-game mechanics.

I'm confused about why you think this would alienate wifi players any more than Nintendo's own decision would. If anything, it would bring them in by giving them an online platform to play with the rules they'll be using in the tournament...instead of forcing them to play with wifi clause. I could see how that could be a legitimate argument, but your post didn't really convince me of that.

 

[RBG]

When has our policy ever been to adopt local rules, especially when fourth generation was the first generation to introduce both local and wi-fi play? This is unprecedented.

When we got rotom-a (and shaymin-s and platinum orb) in gen 4 and you couldn't use them on wifi.

 

[capefeather]

I was mostly fine with Shoddy Battle using local battles simply because of the legality of Rotom-A and Shaymin-S. It just seemed incredibly odd that these would be released but never played if we went for the Wi-Fi route. I'm not sure how much this alienated the Wi-Fi community, but team preview seemed like a reasonable sacrifice for Rotom-A and Shaymin-S to me.

For Gen V, I see practical issues with using infrared rules that make me want to go once again to local/Wi-Fi (which I think are the same now...?). Miracle Shooter might be interesting, I suppose, but the Level 50 part is what gets me. Adapting the SCMS for BW has been pretty daunting already, and now with infrared, the stats have to be redone to reflect the Level 50 stats rather than the Level 100 stats, clogging up the site content caching process a huge amount. Not to mention most of the analyses would have to be slightly redone... All this PLUS the Wi-Fi alienation is just not worth removing an element of questionable merit either way like team preview.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

For Gen V, I see practical issues with using infrared rules that make me want to go once again to local/Wi-Fi (which I think are the same now...?). Miracle Shooter might be interesting, I suppose, but the Level 50 part is what gets me.

Do the IR battles force a level cap? Once again, sorry for my ignorance on the matter, I don't own a DS.

Can we get a list of the differences between IR and wifi play for this topic?

Adapting the SCMS for BW has been pretty daunting already, and now with infrared, the stats have to be redone to reflect the Level 50 stats rather than the Level 100 stats, clogging up the site content caching process a huge amount. Not to mention most of the analyses would have to be slightly redone...

I've offered to help but was thoroughly and openly rejected :(

All this PLUS the Wi-Fi alienation is just not worth removing an element of questionable merit either way like team preview.

Once again, I don't see how this alienates anybody any more than Nintendo's own decision does, especially since wifi clause would still be available for use on the simulators.

 

[ΩDonut]

There is *possibly* an option to have no-preview battles over WiFi, in the same menu as the infrared option. If it works, then we can have no-preview be the standard for our Pokemon battles.

However, nobody here has tested it.

1. From the main menu, instead of pressing continue, scroll down to the fourth option. In Japanese it's called バトルたいかい (Battle Tournament), in the patch it's mislabeled "Connect to GL".

2. Select the first option, Wi-Fiたいかい へ (WiFi Tournament)

3. Select the first option, さんかする

 

[DougJustDoug]

Let's be clear that this "decision", however it is made, will be a decision as to the ruleset and format to be observed in Smogon's standard tournaments. What people choose to do on simulators and elsewhere is entirely up to the people in control of those things. Cathy was entirely within her rights to make Shoddy support whatever formats she pleased, and Coyotte is entirely within his rights to open his simulator up to whatever variety of formats he deems interesting, fun, competitive, etc. We have no control over simulator programmers, and they have no obligations beyond their own preferences and best judgement. So let's leave the simulator discussion out of this. We are talking about Smogon standard tournaments, which we DO control.

Yes, when Smogon sets the format for standard Smogon tournaments, that tends to have a ripple effect on other things within Smogon and beyond. Within Smogon, we typically implement a ladder on our battle server that mimics the ruleset of our standard tournaments. That introduces an interesting conundrum regarding the issue mentioned in the OP -- Smogon's tournaments have a "real world" analog in Nintendo's official tournaments, but Smogon's ladder has a real world analog in Wifi matchmaking and battling. If we mimic the standards of the real world analogs, then we would need to "disconnect" the Smogon standard tournaments from Smogon ladders. That isn't going to happen.

The intimate binding of Smogon tournaments and ladders are woven into many other areas of Smogon, including how we collect and interpret statistics, how we write strategies in C&C, how we produce content for The Smog, and even how we discuss matters here in Policy Review. The connection between our standard tournaments and our standard ladder is here to stay.

In the past, we have typically disregarded the ruleset and playing precedents set by Nintendo's official tournaments -- except for our VGC metagame community, that strictly adheres to every nuance of Nintendo's tournament format. I have mentioned many times in the past that I think it would be a good long-term strategy for Smogon to encourage and grow our VGC metagame support, but I acknowledge that the Smogon "Standard Metagame", as defined by the ruleset observed in Smogon Standard Tournaments, is currently the primary focus of Smogon as a whole. Since the advent of wifi play, we have traditionally used wifi as the real world point of reference for our standard metagame. It is not "set in stone", but I do believe that is the commonly-accepted precedent. And that precedent actually dovetails nicely with the point I made at the beginning of this post about separating the discussion of our standard tournaments from the discussion about battle simulators.

We control our tournament format; we don't control the simulator programmers. Yes, we do typically play our standard tournaments on simulators. But, by adhering to wifi play standards, we ensure that we always have a battling medium available to use -- regardless of the decisions made by the people that make and control battle simulators. I'm not saying we should relish the prospect of playing a Smogon Tournament over wifi. But if we really had to do it, we could.

The fact that we COULD play our standard tournaments over wifi, is the only reason we are having this discussion in hopes of making a decision. If we couldn't play our tournaments on wifi -- then you should rename this thread "Coyotte, Cathy, Super, whoever -- will you please read this and agree with us? Please? Pretty please?" In fact, that would be the name of the entire Policy Review forum. Because if we don't have a playing option outside of the sims, then we aren't deciding anything here -- the sim programmers will decide everything. Realistically, the sim programmers have an enormous influence on this metagame, and we have been very fortunate to have benevolent sim programmers that generally do things in the best interests of everyone in the competitive pokemon community at-large. But, with wifi play as a failsafe, we always have a choice as to where we conduct our tournaments -- even if the simulators are BY FAR the easiest and most efficient way to battle.

Wifi is the precedent we follow, and there are traditional and practical reasons for that, as stated above. What Nintendo does in official tournaments is notable and interesting, but probably should not be considered canon for matters related to Smogon's standard metagame.

 

[capefeather]

Once again, I don't see how this alienates anybody any more than Nintendo's own decision does, especially since wifi clause would still be available for use on the simulators.

The VGC format is an entirely different mechanic system - 4v4 doubles - and Smogon makes no effort to enforce deviations from the VGC ruleset. Therefore, Smogon's only responsibility as far as ruleset policy goes is with 6v6 singles (maybe 6v6 doubles/triples if anybody here ends up playing those). Anything that VGC does to its own ruleset is irrelevant to Wi-Fi players wanting to play 6v6 singles. There's no point to talk about alienation through VGC because that arguably happened right from the start of the VGC and apparently we didn't care.

Chou Toshio has posted about the Level 50 cap on infrared before.

 

[zapzap29]

On this issue I think Smogon's tournaments should be held to wifi standards and not VGC standards. VGC is a completely different metagame than Wifi and the fact is that most of Smogon's player base is Wifi. Also, I believe that using VGC rules would limit diversity and creativity because of the various rules implemented in VGC. Having a level cap and only being able to use the Gen IV pokes takes a lot of factors out of the game. Also, I don't think think this issue is worth alienating our Wifi player base over seeing as how Smogon's metagame is slowly diverging from the beta servers. Our server consistently has lower numbers and I think this dramatic change in tournament format would just push more players, new and old, away from our server. For official tournaments I think we should keep Wifi conditions for simplicity's sake.

On the note of the VGC 2011 tier itself I don't see why these rules shouldn't be implemented. But as for implementing VGC on OU? I don't think that's a good idea since the 2 metagames are completely different to begin with. This would be a drastic change that I think would undo all the work we've already put into the Suspect Testing process and tier construction.

 

[coyotte508]

...

Well then at least it's clear that if what OmegaDonut said is not confirmed, it's a definite no to hidden teams (otherwise both options are Wifi really rather than VGC vs Wifi), because Smogon Tournaments couldn't be held in local infrared (though this is really weird, in gen 4 it was local wireless which wasn't plausible for smogon tournaments, we should have just stuck to wifi and removed Shaymin-S and rotom-A and Giratina-O).

The only question remaining would be whether or not to allow this possibility for alternate metagames (like the Dream World ladder), but the VGC ladder will have no team preview anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem. Or, if someone tests what OmegaDonut said and it proves successful, then we'd have a bigger debate to consider =/

 

[Chou Toshio]

Every word of the first half of your post would still be true if you replaced the words "wifi" with "infrared".

Um, no it couldn't

No it isn't.

Yes, it is.

I'm confused about why you think this would alienate wifi players any more than Nintendo's own decision would. If anything, it would bring them in by giving them an online platform to play with the rules they'll be using in the tournament...instead of forcing them to play with wifi clause. I could see how that could be a legitimate argument, but your post didn't really convince me of that.

Because the vast majority of wifi players will never even have the opportunity to participate in VGC. While popular, it's not like these tournaments are extremely accessible. Many players have to severely bend their schedules and/or travel for hours to get to and participate in the events. This is not even taking into account players who live in countries besides the most active VGC countries.

Out of the countless wifi players, what % do you think will actually be able to participate? For most cart players it's not a "clause," it's a condition, and wifi is the format of play because it's the only format accessible.

More than anything, VGC isn't the OU ladder, and we have no obligation to make OU similar to VGC. We have (or will have?) a dedicated VGC ladder. I'd reckon any "experience gained" on the OU ladder would be completely trivial compared to experience from VGC ladder play when preparing for VGC.

Your posts on the other hand didn't convince me of anything either.

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I should note that should Wi-Fiたいかい (Omega talked about) provide a means of doing no-preview Wifi battles, I would be much less adverse to using no-preview as the standard. Then it really would just be a matter of preferences.

On preferences though, I would still prefer team preview (slightly). No one has argued against the premise that team preview increases the "odds of winning" of the better player. Stronger players utilize team preview better, and it does drastically increase their odds of winning by reducing the luck inherent in team matchups. In other words, team preview battles are inherently "more competitive." Even if there is significant skill in "information management," this in no way is relevant to the fact that Team Preview decidedly tips the outcome of battle in favor of higher skill.

Coyotte has raised the point that non-preview battles can be more "fun", but fun is subjective, and in Smogon's philosophy does not leave room to weigh "fun" over "competitiveness."

The above though, are simply arguments for my preference to hopefully convince others.

If Non-Preview battles are in fact possible over Wi-Fi, it really should be held to a vote, being a question of preference.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Um, no it couldn't

Yes, it is.

Really not worth replying to, considering that the OP of this topic is about the very things that would best respond.

Because the vast majority of wifi players will never even have the opportunity to participate in VGC. While popular, it's not like these tournaments are extremely accessible. Many players have to severely bend their schedules and/or travel for hours to get to and participate in the events. This is not even taking into account players who live in countries besides the most active VGC countries.

Do you have some numbers here, or are you just intentionally using vague words like "vast majority", "not...extremely", and "severely" because there is no way to quantify feelings of neglect that may not even exist?

For most cart players it's not a "clause," it's a condition, and wifi is the format of play because it's the only format accessible.

Which is why I'm particularly interested in OmegaDonut's post, since this condition will no longer be a problem if what he said is accurate.

Your posts on the other hand didn't convince me of anything either.

I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything. As a matter of fact I explicitly stated that I intended this to be a pros/cons list of doing each option, and not to argue the merits of removing or retaining team previews until we established that we were willing to consider it.

No one has argued against the premise that team preview increases the "odds of winning" of the better player.

I have, considering how much team previews favors bog standard teams while eliminating a lot of options in team building. It also gives the poorer player a lot more help than it gives a better player.

Stronger players utilize team preview better, and it does drastically increase their odds of winning by reducing the luck inherent in team matchups. In other words, team preview battles are inherently "more competitive."

I highly disagree, and I think that it makes team matchups even MORE important in determining the outcome of the match (if you want to refer to team matchups as luck, I'll play along). If you have a bad team matchup, your opponent will know it before you even make a move. Now not only are you in a bad position, but you can't even bluff your way out of it. They know exactly what they have to beat to win, their gameplan is laid out right in front of them.

Even if there is significant skill in "information management," this in no way is relevant to the fact that Team Preview decidedly tips the outcome of battle in favor of higher skill.

Even if there is a significant amount of skill removed from the game, that's not relevant to team previews making the game more skillful? What? You're saying that team previews remove a "significant skill" but then somehow make the game more skillful?

Coyotte has raised the point that non-preview battles can be more "fun", but fun is subjective, and in Smogon's philosophy does not leave room to weigh "fun" over "competitiveness."
...
If Non-Preview battles are in fact possible over Wi-Fi, it really should be held to a vote, being a question of preference.

Forgive me for wondering how you can dismiss coyotte's post as being too subjective, then immediately go on to suggest that we hold vote on the matter because it's a "question of preference".

 

[Chou Toshio]

d

Really not worth replying to, considering that the OP of this topic is about the very things that would best respond.

I made responses not worth replying to in replying to responses that were not worth replying to.

Do you have some numbers here, or are you just intentionally using vague words like "vast majority", "not...extremely", and "severely" because there is no way to quantify feelings of neglect that may not even exist?

I don't have to try to dig up numbers from survey research that doesn't exist to tell you that the number of players who participate in VGC are only a small fraction of those players who play Pokemon. I can also turn the question around and say that there is no evidence that the groups "Wifi Community" and "VGC Community" are even well connected.

Which is why I'm particularly interested in OmegaDonut's post, since this condition will no longer be a problem if what he said is accurate.

That's true. Let's wait and see.

I have, considering how much team previews favors bog standard teams while eliminating a lot of options in team building.

If anything, this sentence argues my point.

Why is everyone complaining about the "instability" of 5th Gen OU? It's because with the addition of even more pokemon, you have a big increase in powerful offensive and defensive threats. The problem is with their being too many to prepare for.

If Team Preview makes gimmick sets less viable and limits the number of usable options, than it decidedly works against the problem of increased threats.

It also gives the poorer player a lot more help than it gives a better player.

Mind explaining? I see it as the exact opposite.

I highly disagree, and I think that it makes team matchups even MORE important in determining the outcome of the match (if you want to refer to team matchups as luck, I'll play along). If you have a bad team matchup, your opponent will know it before you even make a move. Now not only are you in a bad position, but you can't even bluff your way out of it. They know exactly what they have to beat to win, their gameplan is laid out right in front of them.

I don't agree with any of this.

Why do teams have good/bad matchups? The greatest factor is the presence of a threat you are weak against in the enemy team. Knowing the enemy is extremely helpful in defending against said problem threats, since you will better know what measures must be taken to defend against it. It's 100% certain you know your team better than the enemy does, and will thus be much more apt to hold onto your valuable "checks" than the enemy will be apt to realizing exactly which of his pokemon are the most problematic for your team.

If anything (and none of these arguments are empirical), I would argue that team preview is a much more desirable when your team is at a disadvantage.

Along the same line of thought, it takes much more skill to use Team Preview to read the enemy's weaknesses than it does to simply notice your own weaknesses in the enemy team. However, skilled players are capable reading the enemy weaknesses from team preview much more than weak players are-- this further enhances the wall between skill levels.

Even if there is a significant amount of skill removed from the game, that's not relevant to team previews making the game more skillful? What? You're saying that team previews remove a "significant skill" but then somehow make the game more skillful?

You are making a mistake in thinking of skill only as a "quantity" instead of as "kind." This mistake is also due to my lack of clarity. A certain type of skill is removed by including team preview. Different types of skill though emerge.

Reducing the influence of one type of skill does not take away from the argument that I am sticking to as true: Skilled players win more often under Team Preview conditions.

I didn't say that Team Preview makes the game more skillful (the level of skill of the players).

I said that Team Preview makes the game more skill-based (that the outcome of the match becomes more dependent on skill).



As I have not played during Suspect period II due to LoA, and the possibility you could have alts, I dare not say to know, but based on the play/ranking activity of your more obvious accounts (ones that look like "jrrrr") during the first period, imma going to guess you actually haven't laddered very intensely under Team Preview.

I will say from my own experiences, that about halfway through the first period, getting into the habit of writing down team preview and thinking about it, I dramatically raised my own winning ratio. It's definitely something that can be utilized depending on the skill of the player.

Forgive me for wondering how you can dismiss coyotte's post as being too subjective, then immediately go on to suggest that we hold vote on the matter because it's a "question of preference".

That's simple. All you have to do is re-enter the part you chose not to quote.

Coyotte has raised the point that non-preview battles can be more "fun", but fun is subjective, and in Smogon's philosophy does not leave room to weigh "fun" over "competitiveness."

The above though, are simply arguments for my preference to hopefully convince others.

If Non-Preview battles are in fact possible over Wi-Fi, it really should be held to a vote, being a question of preference.

I never said directly that Coyotte's thinking is "wrong" or that building a game based on player preferences (even for fun) is wrong. Rather, I have always been a proponent for subjective preference-based policy decisions.

The bold statement clearly indicates that my points above are not about right or wrong, but merely arguments of persuasion, trying to appeal to the larger Smogon community to agree with me and my preferences. I am merely appealing to the Smogon ego of being hard-core competitive to get players to fall in line behind my thinking should it come to vote. Manipulative, yes, but all tiering arguments are made for the same purpose. There is no right or wrong involved.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

If we can get a definitive reply on whether or not we're looking into adopting Nintendo's new stance on team previews, I will make a full reply to Chou's post. That kind of debate was specifically what I was trying to avoid in this thread. I don't want you to think I'm ignoring your post, so if you want to carry the discussion further, please just PM me. Until then I just want to discuss the possibility of this occurring, then we can get into the specifics.

As I have not played during Suspect period II due to LoA, and the possibility you could have alts, I dare not say to know, but based on the play/ranking activity of your more obvious accounts (ones that look like "jrrrr") during the first period, imma going to guess you actually haven't laddered very intensely under Team Preview.

I haven't played in this second round, but I played quite a bit in the first round with a bunch of different teams. I have definitely played a lot both with and without team previews, mostly during suspect test 1. It's just really hard to force yourself to battle in a metagame that you hate. Between facing 10+ rain teams in a row (on more than one occasion) and going into cruise control mode because of team previews, playing pokemon is really just not as exciting as it used to be so my playing time has suffered. I don't really care about getting that little checkmark anymore because the bans are coming inevitably due to the way the tests are structured, but that's an argument for the other active PR thread. I think I understand what you were getting at, but if you were trying to imply that I'm not qualified to speak on this matter then you are mistaken (to put it politely, since I've turned over a new leaf). But this topic isn't about me, it's about our community's position on Nintendo's choice in rules and mechanics.

I will say from my own experiences, that about halfway through the first period, getting into the habit of writing down team preview and thinking about it, I dramatically raised my own winning ratio. It's definitely something that can be utilized depending on the skill of the player.

You can hit "Prnt Scrn" to make a screenshot of your opponent's team and paste it into Paint before the match starts, it saves you time writing! I just wish this option was available in all the other gens of pokemon =[

 

[Firestorm]

Please don't hide behind "VGC is doing it this way" when you've made it clear you don't give a shit what other parties do and have advocated for not even looking at official tournaments. You dislike team previews and don't want to use them. That is your actual argument.

The decision to be made here is which mode of battle to emulate. For the past few months it has been WiFi.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Please don't hide behind "VGC is doing it this way" when you've made it clear you don't give a shit what other parties do and have advocated for not even looking at official tournaments. You dislike team previews and don't want to use them. That is your actual argument.

The decision to be made here is which mode of battle to emulate. For the past few months it has been WiFi.

You've made it clear that you only give a shit about what Nintendo does, which is why I brought this up. I'm not hiding behind anything, I made this topic out in the open and I have not denied the fact that I also dislike team previews in addition to now having an official Nintendo precedent for not requiring them. The only reason why I have started looking at official tournaments is because Phil put his foot down and said that we're sticking with Nintendo's mechanics no matter what, so I don't have a choice but to change my mindset. It's amazing that you criticize me when I am going against the grain and then you call me a hypocrite when I start listening to people and going with the grain. I really don't appreciate your condescending tone in this otherwise civil thread, please try to stick to comments like your last sentence instead of your negative accusatory tone from the first. I get stuck with infractions no matter what I say, even if the admins tell me that they disagree with them. So if I can't make accusatory posts like this anymore then I would appreciate it if we didn't have a double standard.

 

[Firestorm]

Oh, if it's misunderstanding what "mechanics" mean you should have said so in the first place.

The Pokemon Company International choosing to use the IR mode is not a mechanic. It's their chosen medium for competitive play. We were under the assumption they would use Local Wireless.

Smogon chose WiFi for Generation V. That had nothing to do with TPCi's choices for competitive play. TPCi using different rules has absolutely no bearing on Smogon's OU metagame. If they did, we wouldn't be playing Singles with only Pokemon that a majority of our best players like.

I have tried to get a full list of what IR can do but the only person I've found on this board with a Japanese copy of the game, the ability to understand it, and access to other people to the game is Chou and he has limited access to that.

If you want to push no team preview, it would be less hypocritical and easier to support if you did the research to find out what IR can do, and put forth an argument for what it offers over WiFi which seems to be our established standard.

 

[locopoke]

Does infared always have miracle shooter? j/w

Also I think this topic is kinda just jrrrrrrr trying to use w/e he can to get rid of team previews because he likes the game better without them. You can tell by his replies he didn't do much research on the subject. I honestly like team previews and believe that they make the game more dependent on skill rather than team matchups and shots in the dark but I've already said all of this in previous threads. I think we've gone too far with team previews already and it'd be stupid to change the way we play now. Even if it comes to a vote people have already gotten so used to it that it will be unanimous.