Gen 3 ADV Baton Pass v184

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These last few months I have been playing ADV with a BP style and I have tried CM pass, Curse Pass, Dragon Dance Pass.
The most solid of these 3 is Curse Pass.

Curse Pass: Its problem is that by losing speed the setter ends up poisoned, paralyzed and taunted, which is why it ends up phazed.
Why do I say it is the most consistent? Because most people are not prepared and taunt is rarely used.
Its disadvantage is that it needs many courses to be functional.

Calm Mind pass: is very effective and the easiest to use.....except that Blissey is broken in this generation. Yes, I think it is VERY broken. We didn't notice it because semi baton pass is used a lot with CM pass, and this is where I realized how difficult it is to defeat her even in the best scenarios. Additionally she can use CM and GG EZ.
For this reason, unless she sets a trap, like perish trap, or Dugtrio, it is very difficult for a CM pass team to be consistent.

Dragon Dance pass: is good, but the only one who can do this is Smeargle, who cannot use a berry to combine with substitute to improve his only chance to perform the pass. And few Pokémon can take advantage of it well, since Skarmory is everywhere. One possibility is that Magneton is part of the team, but even so, there are other good phazers that can beat +1 speed and +1 attack. Swampert, Hariyama. And their main problem, Intimidation. Tauros, Salamence, Gyarados are excellent in OU, and constant. It is very easy for them to neutralize if they are more than 1 on the rival team. Another problem is a Lum berry user, who can easily defeat Smeargle. And finally the absence of team preview is another drawback, when it comes to choosing the moment to use Spore on the phazer or the greatest threat.

Agility pass: Zapdos is the most viable. He can exterminate the best Phazer, Skarmory. And with hidden power he threatens Salamence and Swampert, and other good phazers. Moltres, Articuno, they also have a hard time phasing it.
But the biggest disadvantage of him is that most of the time he only has Thunderbolt to pass substitute too. That makes it vulnerable to ground types like Marowak, or Claydol's explosion. Jolteon sub pass and roar.

This is where Ninjask has the advantage, because he doesn't need to spend a slot on agility, instead he uses protect. And he can gain additional attributes with Silver Wind.
Ninjask can give him enough speed to make Snorlax a speedy threat.
He is controllable, especially by Skarmory, since the abusers are all physical attackers. But they are very varied, and this is where Ninjask has the advantage over Zapdos, which wears out much less. He does not need to risk so much or lose turns to achieve his goal, and with 4 abusers and one more pivot accompanying him he can work well.
Both passers benefit from the absence of team preview, since the abusers are very varied: Marowak, Ursaring, Breloom, Heracross, Hariyama, Poliwrath, Swampert, Armaldo, Metagross, Blaziken.

With all the restrictions that currently exist, I only see Ninjask's ease of passing the speed as broken, added to the uncertainty of not being able to react correctly due to the nonexistence of the team preview.

My proposal: complex ban Ninjask+Baton pass
Mr Mime+Baton pass.
Hi, I’m CD56, I play a good bit of ADV OU myself, hit top 500 on the ladder a few times and my elo generally floats around 1450-1500, So I’m no top player, but I do understand the metagame. I firmly believe Baton Pass is necessary as a scouting tool and momentum generator in many ways, but it’s obviously extremely difficult to rein in. As people have said before, the standard users of BP (Zapdos, Celebi, Jolteon to a lesser extent) have no broken applications to them, as CM and Agility pass from these pokemon are generally seen as balanced. The problem, is speed boost, unfortunately. Any pokemon could have speed boost and baton pass in this metagame and it would instantly be an incredibly uninteractive pokemon. I believe the best course of action is to completely axe ninjask. Let’s be serious, no one is using it to actually do anything else other than free speed passing. being able to use other moves while being able to pass extra speed to a teammate is inherently uncompetitive and poses a risk to skill based gameplay. Ninjask is funny and all, but I’ve had enough of this guy.
Today I faced a team that used Zapdos with substitute, roar, bp, and agility. Then I could send it to Smeargle with Spore, BP, Substitute and something else that I didn't see. The last member of the core was Umbreon with Bp, Taunt, Substitute and Sand attack.
I finally met one of these teams. The final recipient was Marowak Jolly with Belly drum.
He was lucky that my attack failed after just one sand attack. I wouldn't have been able to sweep without this.
In another match I managed to beat him thanks to my own Marowak with Bonmerang, who after the Belly drum his marowak behind the substitute was weak.
It is a complex core, not easy to use. It requires too much work to send the speed to surely 2 final recipients. Surely there was another support like Vaporeon, or Celebi that would avoid Leech seed.

Maybe banning sand attack isn't a bad idea. It is a useless attack in most cases.
To follow up on CD56's (and others') comments , I spent the last few days testing nin-pass teams, and yes, nin-pass is the problem. Or at least my biggest issue with the tier as it stands. Its not an enormous problem, as there is plenty of counterplay, but it is restrictive on teambuilding to an extent and probably isn't fun to play against. I stole some wins off actually decent players, and its actually free elo if you can pass an omni-boost to metagross or something. Agilpass limits the options of the passer and you don't consistently get it 3+ times a game. Salac pass is single use and isn't even close to being a problem. Moreover, nin-pass completely invalidates other forms of speed passing, because if you are clicking agility, ninjask is fishing for silver wind boosts, and is still probably passing more speed than you.

It seems a lot of people want something done, so the choice is either ban speedpass entirely to preserve band/SD ninjask (which, why?) or ban jask. I really like speedpass Zap so I'd ban jask, and I actually like SD ninjask but it is UU for a reason. You could do a complex jask+pass ban but why bother, ninjask sucks.

I can only hit top 200 on ladder, not top 25, so I'm not getting the reqs, but I hope the voters pick no and we move for a ninjask ban, which I think would overwhelmingly pass.
That's how it is. Ninjask does not need a slot to spend on agility, he can protect himself and use substitute. If he gets a substitute he can use Sand attack instead of Silver Wind. If you manage to send 1 substitute, it is enough for Marowak, Hariyama, or Snorlax to use Belly drum effectively and sweep.

If Ninjask with Bp is banned. I think that would be enough. Sand Atack should be banned, since as long as Baton Pass chains exist it will always bother.

With these measures I think Mr Mime could be allowed again. If Ninjask with BP is banned, Mr Mime with BP banned, sound proof could return.
Mr Mime as a Calm Mind recipient is not dangerous if he cannot passer to another threat.
The same Eelectrode and Exploud with soundproof.
It's not important, but I wanted to mention that they look like good containers, and they don't abuse them.
Speedpass to CBTar/Dol/EndPert (Astamatitos)
Speedpass to Rhydon (pasy_g)
Starfpass with Swellow (me)
CM pass with Magneton (me)
SalacPass Vaporeon (me)
LiechiPass Zapdos + Jolteon (Astamatitos)
Speed + CM pass on Vaporeon CM Spam (McMeghan)
SubPass to Beat Up Dugtrio (me)
Skarm Speedpass (McMeghan)
Speedpass to RestOffCune (me)
LiechiPass Zapdos Rain Hera (Mana)
I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting more.
About strategies with baton pass, you forget to speak about Umbreon with Mean Look + Baton Pass or Ariados with Spider web+ Baton Pass, both are sweetie if used after a pokémon with Perish song as Lapras or Altaria.
About strategies with baton pass, you forget to speak about Umbreon with Mean Look + Baton Pass or Ariados with Spider web+ Baton Pass, both are sweetie if used after a pokémon with Perish song as Lapras or Altaria.
That was banned a long time ago. Smeargle himself can do that.
My point is that the speed is not really abusive, if not Ninjask, and on the other hand Mr Mime is not abusive either, but is used as a pivot to avoid phazing and send them into a powerful container.
Hence I propose Banning the combination of Ninjask+Bp and Mr Mime+ Bp.
And also ban Sand Attack.
Hence I propose Banning the combination of Ninjask+Bp and Mr Mime+ Bp.
While I personally don't have any experience with this issue, my understanding from this thread, prior votes across many other tiers, and also the recent (ongoing?) Gen 1 SPL Bo3 incident is that pretty much every "council" regardless of the situation hates complex bans (or exemptions in the case of SPL Bo3). Probably the more granular the proposed ban would be, you'd also get more votes that fail due to some voters not liking this or that about the combination, which leads to another vote because people want something done, and so on.

For that reason I would personally advocate for a flat ninjask ban because its the most likely to get done.

That being said, the voters are like the top 10 players of the tier, and I have no idea what a top 10 player wants to see changed vs a 1500 ladder rat, so i guess we'll see.
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