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Hi, new player here. I've been trying out the BKC SkarmMag + Aero TSS team in the team dump thread and I'm enjoying it a lot! I did have a couple of questions about the team though:

1. What are Magneton and Tyranitar's roles on the team? I thought Aero doesn't struggle with Skarm as much and that removing Gengar was primarily for allowing spinners to do their thing. Is it still worth it to have them just for trapping Skarm and Gengar, or are there other things I'm overlooking here?
2. Speaking of spinners, I haven't faced many teams with them so far, but I feel like I don't have a good way to stop them from keeping spikes away. In particular, offensive Starmie seems really hard to deal with. How am I supposed to play around these?
 
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Snorlax1599 said:
Hi, new player here. I've been trying out the BKC SkarmMag + Aero TSS team in the team dump thread and I'm enjoying it a lot! I did have a couple of questions about the team though:

1. What are Magneton and Tyranitar's roles on the team? I thought Aero doesn't struggle with Skarm as much and that removing Gengar was primarily for allowing spinners to do their thing. Is it still worth it to have them just for trapping Skarm and Gengar, or are there other things I'm overlooking here?
2. Speaking of spinners, I haven't faced many teams with them so far, but I feel like I don't have a good way to stop them from keeping spikes away. In particular, offensive Starmie seems really to deal with. How am I supposed to play around these?
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1) I think it's good to ask if not Magneton then what? Usually it would be Gengar (which is another famous team). Some similar Skarmory + Celebi teams use Starmie there. There are other variations that are more complex but I won't get into that. Point is, this is usually seen as the Spikes support slot, where the goal is trying to get more Spikes down than the opponent. Spinblockers, trappers, and spinners all fulfill this role. It's obvious for spinblockers and spinners; for trappers, note that apart from obviously trapping Skarmory, Magneton also traps opposing Magneton (especially if Timid with some SpDef) and can be sacrificed to CB Metagross' Explosion. Pursuit Tyranitar traps Starmie and Claydol, the two main spinners. You also get bonuses like giving Celebi the freedom to use some sets that are really weak to Skarmory/Gengar like Sub/Seed/Recover/BP which is the original team.
2) TSS just tries to race against the opponent. It's not made to last forever. You'll have to deal with Starmie using Aerodactyl. Most Aerodactyl teams work on the principle of revenge killing.
 
Also note that Aero's most powerful move is Double Edge. With the bonus of 100% accuracy for consistency.

Removing Gengar allows you to Double Edge for consistent progress and damage. Creating gamestates where you can fearlessly click Double Edge is generally an excellent thing for Aero.

When considering Skarm removal, it's helpful to think; "Am I more worried about Skarm (the physical wall) or Skarm (the spiker)?" In this case, it's both!

That team has no spinner and several grounded mons, so it's important to disallow Skarm (the spiker) from making multiple layers. Otherwise you get worn down too quickly.

Aero benefits from Skarm (the wall)'s demise. While Aero *can* punch through Skarm eventually, Skarm heavily restricts your options. Once Skarm is eliminated, it reduces reliance on predictions. Instead of having to Rock Slide on a Skarm, you can Double Edge everything for neutral damage and threaten earthquake on the resists (meta, jirachi, ttar)

I love that sample team, Aero is very fun.
 
In addition to the two excellent responses above, I also just want to point out that the idea that skarm is not a threat to aerodactyl simply because aero beats it 1v1 is a little oversimplified. Skarm is an incredible mid ground switch and scout into CB aero for regaining momentum.
Let's say you have aero in against a mon that you threaten out with multiple moves so your opponent can't predict what you click. They go to their Skarm on rock slide. This is the calc.
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 119-141 (35.6 - 42.2%)

Looks pretty good. But skarm gets back 6.25% from lefties, and another 6.25% after clicking protect next turn. So its actually that calc -12.5%, and now they know you're locked into rock slide. This means they can go into a sturdy rock resist, like swampert, metagross, or jirachi, take negligible damage from aero, and force you out - they've traded 23-30% on skarm for the momentum back, and that's often worth it. Obviously the interaction isn't so cut and dry - the aero user can switch on the turn skarm protects, or double switch, but this is the general interaction. Skarmory doesn't have to completely wall you 1v1 forever to win that dynamic.

But now you throw magneton in, and suddenly, you flip the dynamic around. You switch to magneton when skarmory protects and you have firmly maintained the momentum, removing the opponent's spiker and double edge switch in. For a offensive team like that, you cannot let the opponent generate free turns and momentum, which is why there is a heavy use of trapping.
 
Hey guys, and I hope everyone reading this has a nice day. I'm quite new to ADV OU, and although I don't know much about the metagame, I'm trying to understand everything there is to it.

The reason why I'm here is because I want to build around Blaziken. I'm not sure what's the BEST set for it, but I want to use it as a lead (anti-lead?). The idea is that most people lead with Skarmory, Tyranitar, Salamence, etc. By using it as a lead, it can demolish them with its STABs, something that most mons can't do.

I'm currently running a special set, with Fire Blast, Thunder Punch, Hidden Power Ice, and Brick Break. It looks good, but the problem is that I don't know what are good or great teammates for it. I think a good, reliable Grass or Water type can work well like Celebi or Swampert, but I'm not sure.
Can you guys help?
Thank you in advance (pun unintended).
 
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4Kuser said:
Hey guys, and hope everyone reading this has a nice day. I'm quite new to ADV OU, and although I don't know much about the metagame, I'm trying to understand everything there is to it.

The reason why I'm here is because I want to build around Blaziken. I'm not sure what's the BEST set for it, but I want to use it as a lead (anti-lead?). The idea is that most people lead with Skarmory, Tyranitar, Salamence, etc. By using it as a lead, it can demolish them with its STABs, something that most mons can't do.

I'm currently running a special set, with Fire Blast, Thunder Punch, Hidden Power Ice, and Brick Break. It looks good, but the problem is that I don't know what are good or great teammates for it. I think a good, reliable Grass or Water type can work well with Celebi or Swampert, but I'm not sure.
Can you guys help?
Thank you in advance (pun unintended).
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I'm pretty new, too, so certainly take my advice with a grain of salt, and listen to more established players over me. That said, you're definitely on the right track with Celebi and Swampert. Celebi especially, because otherwise Swampert is just going to straight-up wall you. Suicune's also going to give you trouble, and can win against Celebi w/ a lot of sets.

Also keep in mind that while special Blaziken lead can kill lead Skarm and Ttar, if Salamence has HP Flying or Earthquake it just wins, and TTar wins with a DDance. Blaziken's not great at switching in to much, so you really have to be careful building around it. It doesn't have Speed Boost in ADV, so its 80 base speed makes it less of a powerhouse than it is in later gens.
 
4Kuser said:
Hey guys, and hope everyone reading this has a nice day. I'm quite new to ADV OU, and although I don't know much about the metagame, I'm trying to understand everything there is to it.

The reason why I'm here is because I want to build around Blaziken. I'm not sure what's the BEST set for it, but I want to use it as a lead (anti-lead?). The idea is that most people lead with Skarmory, Tyranitar, Salamence, etc. By using it as a lead, it can demolish them with its STABs, something that most mons can't do.

I'm currently running a special set, with Fire Blast, Thunder Punch, Hidden Power Ice, and Brick Break. It looks good, but the problem is that I don't know what are good or great teammates for it. I think a good, reliable Grass or Water type can work well with Celebi or Swampert, but I'm not sure.
Can you guys help?
Thank you in advance (pun unintended).
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If you are brand new to ADV, I wouldn’t recommend using Blaziken. You should probably go with something more standard, maybe something from the sample teams.
 
caelT8 said:
If you are brand new to ADV, I wouldn’t recommend using Blaziken. You should probably go with something more standard, maybe something from the sample teams.
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Thanks, I'll go steal- uhhhh... I mean... borrow some teams, what do you recommend?


Ferpect0val said:
I'm pretty new, too, so certainly take my advice with a grain of salt, and listen to more established players over me. That said, you're definitely on the right track with Celebi and Swampert. Celebi especially, because otherwise Swampert is just going to straight-up wall you. Suicune's also going to give you trouble, and can win against Celebi w/ a lot of sets.

Also keep in mind that while special Blaziken lead can kill lead Skarm and Ttar, if Salamence has HP Flying or Earthquake it just wins, and TTar wins with a DDance. Blaziken's not great at switching in too much, so you really have to be careful building around it. It doesn't have Speed Boost in ADV, so its 80 base speed makes it less of a powerhouse than it is in later gens.
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Thanks for the advice, I think Milotic and Celebi are a good pair, since Milotic walls CM Suicune sets, and Celebi deals with all those Swamperts.
I don't think that I would worry about switching or dying to leads since my idea for it is to kill one or two Pokemon, and then die. It's done its job.

And I hope everyone reading this has a nice day.
 
been intrigued amd wanting to build around mixed zapdos. anyone have any sample teams with it? if not, what are some good partners for it or what tips do you have for building around it? thanks!
 
TrulyDevious said:
been intrigued amd wanting to build around mixed zapdos. anyone have any sample teams with it? if not, what are some good partners for it or what tips do you have for building around it? thanks!
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Hello. There are two sets for mixed Zapdos. Lonely 252Atk Drill Peck/HP Fight/Thunderbolt/filler (I like Thunder Wave) and Mild Drill Peck/HP Grass/Thunderbolt/Agility. The first is a breaker and the second is a sweeper. Spikes is needed for both. The first maintains momentum vs Celebi/Tyranitar and targets damage on Swampert, so pairing it with physical offenses like DDTar and Agiligross is good. You can go to my teambuilding guide thread and download the pdf - there is a Roselia team with Mixed Zapdos near the end. I don't have too much experience with the second set, but UD used to have a team in one of his SPLs with Jolteon + Zapdos where he used this set. Since it doesn't really OHKO anything on its own except Aero, Roar Jolteon is very good to induce chip.
 
vapicuno said:
Hello. There are two sets for mixed Zapdos. Lonely 252Atk Drill Peck/HP Fight/Thunderbolt/filler (I like Thunder Wave) and Mild Drill Peck/HP Grass/Thunderbolt/Agility. The first is a breaker and the second is a sweeper. Spikes is needed for both. The first maintains momentum vs Celebi/Tyranitar and targets damage on Swampert, so pairing it with physical offenses like DDTar and Agiligross is good. You can go to my teambuilding guide thread and download the pdf - there is a Roselia team with Mixed Zapdos near the end. I don't have too much experience with the second set, but UD used to have a team in one of his SPLs with Jolteon + Zapdos where he used this set. Since it doesn't really OHKO anything on its own except Aero, Roar Jolteon is very good to induce chip.
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thank you so much! last question since i’m thinking of running mixed wallbreaker zapdos, does it make sense to pair it with cm raikou? what would that structure look like?
 
TrulyDevious said:
thank you so much! last question since i’m thinking of running mixed wallbreaker zapdos, does it make sense to pair it with cm raikou? what would that structure look like?
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Cloyster zapdos raikou Tyranitar gengar swampert/metagross.
 
How can I prepare for CM Suicune in my Teambuilding and gameplay? I find my teams keep losing to Suicunes that spam CM and rest. They get too bulky and wear down my team even after resetting buffs with Roar/Whirlwind.

I don't usually win the PP stalling either because Suicune has pressure.

Thanks for the help!
 
Stella_R said:
How can I prepare for CM Suicune in my Teambuilding and gameplay? I find my teams keep losing to Suicunes that spam CM and rest. They get too bulky and wear down my team even after resetting buffs with Roar/Whirlwind.

I don't usually win the PP stalling either because Suicune has pressure.

Thanks for the help!
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Hello. Checks and counters section of https://www.smogon.com/dex/rs/pokemon/suicune/
 
:tyranitar::skarmory::swampert::blissey::gengar::moltres:
I would like to talk about three observations I have made about the sample team I have been using as a new player over the past few weeks. I have about 300 games played with Eden's Moltres TSS team, with a rating anywhere from 1200 to 1500 on the gen3ou ladder. I've been having lots of fun and I wanted to try my hand at the skill of identifying what weaknesses this team has. Specifically, I want to know if there is something I could better understand about the purpose of the team, or if other players would corroborate these observations. Namely:

:Tyranitar::Skarmory::Gengar: 1. Taunt is not worth three moveslots
I would guess that a good player taking a look at this team would say that three Taunters--Tyranitar, Skarmory, and Gengar--is unusual. It would suggest that this move is strongly supporting the team's broader game plan, so I want to talk about what this team wants to do with Taunt.​
​
Taunt Tyranitar completely walls Skarmory, which is useful off the rip for forcing out Skarmory leads. Maybe I hit the jackpot and catch an incoming Swampert with Toxic, or Metagross with Earthquake. But this trick only really works once: I can't hereafter switch my Tyranitar in to Skarmory expecting to apply the same pressure, because they now have the threat of bringing in that same Swampert or Metagross for free on the Taunt. I can't both enforce the threat of the taunt and also punish switch-ins and free attacks, so it becomes a 50-50. My own Skarmory can run the same surprise again, but I don't think this is much better than just Spiking up alongside the opponent.​
​
Lategame there is a very satisfying scenario where a low-health Blissey switches into my Gengar's attack, hoping to heal up. I can surprise her with Taunt, allowing me to get in an extra turn before she can heal. If Blissey is too low to attempt switching out and back in again, this can allow Gengar (or maybe Swampert or Tyranitar if I have Spikes advantage, no Paralysis, and health to spend switching into Ice Beam) the time to finish off Blissey where otherwise she would have healed up. But this requires so many favourable conditions: Spikes advantge, health advantage, Taunt landing on the passive move; that it feels more like tapping in an already won game than being an integral part of the win. You certainly wouldn't say Taunt allows anybody to *1v1* Blissey--even if all the conditions are all in my favour, I'm still spending Gengar's health at 2:1 to finish her off.​
​
I see the synergy between Taunt and the Spikes game plan, and I accept that this is a high-skill move that a better player would find better opportunities to squeeze value from. I would really like to hear some theorymon on how I can better use Taunt to enable my gameplan. Ultimately these Pokemon have other very strong, more reliable, much simpler moves competing for the slot.​
​
:Suicune::Milotic::Starmie: 2. Status resistant Bulky Waters 1v6 me
Refresh and Rest give my team a lot of trouble on almost any Pokemon, and Taunt can disable those moves. So I tried to explore if this was a major explanation for Taunt on this team. The correct play with Refresh seems to be to instantly heal off any status without waiting even a single turn. I obviously can't just spam Toxic against someone using this strategy, because of its accuracy and PP disadvantage against Refresh. So I would need to be able to Toxic and then--with the same Pokemon--immediately outspeed and Taunt on the subsequent turn. I would then also need to be able to survive Surfs, even assuming the opponent doesn't just switch out of the Toxic buildup. This just isn't viable against something like Refresh Milotic, who outspeeds outdamages and outlives my two Taunt/Toxic users. The scenario where Gengar makes progress against Milotic here is similarly contrived. Rest and even Sleep Talk also end up being sound against Taunt against all but the most negligent players.​
​
The mere presence of certain status-resistant water types feels like an auto-lose. Milotic/Swampert's Refresh, Suicune's Rest, Starmie's Natural Cure. Blissey can switch in and wall them, but they also wall her and outlast her with their high PP moves. Gengar might be able to switch in once, but is ultimately overloaded. Surf means that Moltres is not a viable switch-in, so the remaining hope is to catch them with HP Grass 3HKO trying to switch into Flamethrower. Starmie can threaten to beat me in its capacity as a sweeper, as a bulky Water, or as a utility Spinner, though countering it is easier once I know which one it is. (This has been one of the most fun things to learn over the last few weeks: how so many Pokes threaten everything before they are scouted, and the little Poker game around figuring out which flavour of Tyranitar or Salamence they have.)​
​
:Forretress::Blissey::Moltres: 3. Forretress+Blissey takes Spikes advantage
Nothing on my team really makes progress by switching into Blissey. Maybe Tyranitars in general will threaten Blissey, but my set in particular can't set up on her or 2HKO. Spikes is the only way for this team to keep damage on Blissey. Nothing on my team can outdamage her heal (best I got is a shot at a 3HKO from Swampert or Tyranitar), and she keeps Toxic off with Natural Cure. But under spikes, she has to be paranoid about staying topped up, or else she won't be able to come in on Moltres' flamethrower. She'll eat 25% from the spikes, 20% from the switch-in flamethrower, then 20% on the outspeed. I feel like this was the idea behind choosing Moltres for this team. Once Spikes are up, Moltres overpowers even the Pokemon designed to switch into it. If Blissey's a bit lower, Skarmory (after Roaring her in) and even Gengar (who Blissey wants to switch in on) can also start to threaten her by taunting her Softboil. This is a little more fraught, as discussed at length above.​
​
This gameplan vs Blissey is so dependant upon Spikes that things fall apart if they have a decent spinner. Forretress illustrates this well, as he is better equipped to sit on Skarmory than the Toxic-and-Taunt-susceptible Claydol. When he Rapid Spins on Skarmory, he unravels any progress I can make against Blissey. This should cost him something, as a passive Pokemon inviting my Moltres a free Flamethrower shot. But with Spikes now cleared, Blissey is such a solid Moltres switch-in that no progress can be made. Not even the bulky waters can boast this, as they are risking a HP Grass 3HKO on the switch, and usually cannot OHKO Moltres.​

I want to thoroughly understand how this team works before I change it, but here are some small things I'm considering:
  • Give Tyranitar Focus Punch over Toxic. This maintains the role of punishing a switch after Taunt.
  • Give Skarmory Protect over Taunt. I also strongly consider Thief, but I want to be careful about trading one gimmick for another.
  • Give Blissey Thunderbolt over Seismic Toss, to better threaten bulky waters (and Skarmory). This probably has big trade-offs, like viability against CM users.
  • Use a more offensive Gengar with Thunderbolt/Ice Punch/Fire Punch/Explosion. This lets it better threaten Forretress while simplifying the threat vs Blissey.
You don't have to read the spoilers, just let me know what you think about the broad observations. I was going to post this as some sort of RMT, but I don't really think this matches that format. This also doesn't really fit in the Metagame Discussion thread since I don't come at this from a point of prior knowledge, and my scope is somewhat confied to this particular team. I know this is probably an odd and somewhat long post for this thread, but I thought this more rule-abiding than posting a thread of its own. Please let me know if this is inappropriate.
 
flome said:
:tyranitar::skarmory::swampert::blissey::gengar::moltres:
I would like to talk about three observations I have made about the sample team I have been using as a new player over the past few weeks. I have about 300 games played with Eden's Moltres TSS team, with a rating anywhere from 1200 to 1500 on the gen3ou ladder. I've been having lots of fun and I wanted to try my hand at the skill of identifying what weaknesses this team has. Specifically, I want to know if there is something I could better understand about the purpose of the team, or if other players would corroborate these observations. Namely:

:Tyranitar::Skarmory::Gengar: 1. Taunt is not worth three moveslots
I would guess that a good player taking a look at this team would say that three Taunters--Tyranitar, Skarmory, and Gengar--is unusual. It would suggest that this move is strongly supporting the team's broader game plan, so I want to talk about what this team wants to do with Taunt.​
​
Taunt Tyranitar completely walls Skarmory, which is useful off the rip for forcing out Skarmory leads. Maybe I hit the jackpot and catch an incoming Swampert with Toxic, or Metagross with Earthquake. But this trick only really works once: I can't hereafter switch my Tyranitar in to Skarmory expecting to apply the same pressure, because they now have the threat of bringing in that same Swampert or Metagross for free on the Taunt. I can't both enforce the threat of the taunt and also punish switch-ins and free attacks, so it becomes a 50-50. My own Skarmory can run the same surprise again, but I don't think this is much better than just Spiking up alongside the opponent.​
​
Lategame there is a very satisfying scenario where a low-health Blissey switches into my Gengar's attack, hoping to heal up. I can surprise her with Taunt, allowing me to get in an extra turn before she can heal. If Blissey is too low to attempt switching out and back in again, this can allow Gengar (or maybe Swampert or Tyranitar if I have Spikes advantage, no Paralysis, and health to spend switching into Ice Beam) the time to finish off Blissey where otherwise she would have healed up. But this requires so many favourable conditions: Spikes advantge, health advantage, Taunt landing on the passive move; that it feels more like tapping in an already won game than being an integral part of the win. You certainly wouldn't say Taunt allows anybody to *1v1* Blissey--even if all the conditions are all in my favour, I'm still spending Gengar's health at 2:1 to finish her off.​
​
I see the synergy between Taunt and the Spikes game plan, and I accept that this is a high-skill move that a better player would find better opportunities to squeeze value from. I would really like to hear some theorymon on how I can better use Taunt to enable my gameplan. Ultimately these Pokemon have other very strong, more reliable, much simpler moves competing for the slot.​
​
:Suicune::Milotic::Starmie: 2. Status resistant Bulky Waters 1v6 me
Refresh and Rest give my team a lot of trouble on almost any Pokemon, and Taunt can disable those moves. So I tried to explore if this was a major explanation for Taunt on this team. The correct play with Refresh seems to be to instantly heal off any status without waiting even a single turn. I obviously can't just spam Toxic against someone using this strategy, because of its accuracy and PP disadvantage against Refresh. So I would need to be able to Toxic and then--with the same Pokemon--immediately outspeed and Taunt on the subsequent turn. I would then also need to be able to survive Surfs, even assuming the opponent doesn't just switch out of the Toxic buildup. This just isn't viable against something like Refresh Milotic, who outspeeds outdamages and outlives my two Taunt/Toxic users. The scenario where Gengar makes progress against Milotic here is similarly contrived. Rest and even Sleep Talk also end up being sound against Taunt against all but the most negligent players.​
​
The mere presence of certain status-resistant water types feels like an auto-lose. Milotic/Swampert's Refresh, Suicune's Rest, Starmie's Natural Cure. Blissey can switch in and wall them, but they also wall her and outlast her with their high PP moves. Gengar might be able to switch in once, but is ultimately overloaded. Surf means that Moltres is not a viable switch-in, so the remaining hope is to catch them with HP Grass 3HKO trying to switch into Flamethrower. Starmie can threaten to beat me in its capacity as a sweeper, as a bulky Water, or as a utility Spinner, though countering it is easier once I know which one it is. (This has been one of the most fun things to learn over the last few weeks: how so many Pokes threaten everything before they are scouted, and the little Poker game around figuring out which flavour of Tyranitar or Salamence they have.)​
​
:Forretress::Blissey::Moltres: 3. Forretress+Blissey takes Spikes advantage
Nothing on my team really makes progress by switching into Blissey. Maybe Tyranitars in general will threaten Blissey, but my set in particular can't set up on her or 2HKO. Spikes is the only way for this team to keep damage on Blissey. Nothing on my team can outdamage her heal (best I got is a shot at a 3HKO from Swampert or Tyranitar), and she keeps Toxic off with Natural Cure. But under spikes, she has to be paranoid about staying topped up, or else she won't be able to come in on Moltres' flamethrower. She'll eat 25% from the spikes, 20% from the switch-in flamethrower, then 20% on the outspeed. I feel like this was the idea behind choosing Moltres for this team. Once Spikes are up, Moltres overpowers even the Pokemon designed to switch into it. If Blissey's a bit lower, Skarmory (after Roaring her in) and even Gengar (who Blissey wants to switch in on) can also start to threaten her by taunting her Softboil. This is a little more fraught, as discussed at length above.​
​
This gameplan vs Blissey is so dependant upon Spikes that things fall apart if they have a decent spinner. Forretress illustrates this well, as he is better equipped to sit on Skarmory than the Toxic-and-Taunt-susceptible Claydol. When he Rapid Spins on Skarmory, he unravels any progress I can make against Blissey. This should cost him something, as a passive Pokemon inviting my Moltres a free Flamethrower shot. But with Spikes now cleared, Blissey is such a solid Moltres switch-in that no progress can be made. Not even the bulky waters can boast this, as they are risking a HP Grass 3HKO on the switch, and usually cannot OHKO Moltres.​

I want to thoroughly understand how this team works before I change it, but here are some small things I'm considering:
  • Give Tyranitar Focus Punch over Toxic. This maintains the role of punishing a switch after Taunt.
  • Give Skarmory Protect over Taunt. I also strongly consider Thief, but I want to be careful about trading one gimmick for another.
  • Give Blissey Thunderbolt over Seismic Toss, to better threaten bulky waters (and Skarmory). This probably has big trade-offs, like viability against CM users.
  • Use a more offensive Gengar with Thunderbolt/Ice Punch/Fire Punch/Explosion. This lets it better threaten Forretress while simplifying the threat vs Blissey.
You don't have to read the spoilers, just let me know what you think about the broad observations. I was going to post this as some sort of RMT, but I don't really think this matches that format. This also doesn't really fit in the Metagame Discussion thread since I don't come at this from a point of prior knowledge, and my scope is somewhat confied to this particular team. I know this is probably an odd and somewhat long post for this thread, but I thought this more rule-abiding than posting a thread of its own. Please let me know if this is inappropriate.
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First of all, great post, I can tell you're already thinking really deeply about the game in spite of being new. Here are my takes on that team in the context of how I understand the metagame as a whole.

The team has a "solid" (grounded) defensive core in pert + bliss, which means that it's somewhat well equipped to play long games. However, notice that there is NO explicit spike control on the team. No spin, no mag, and three grounded members (including the entire defensive core). This is the flaw that means I'd not trust this team against a balanced field of teams, but it can still work in the right matchup, even though it will have lots of trouble outgrinding dedicated stalls (or balances, as some in this community call them) with spikes and spike control.

So this leads to the question: how does the team shore up its poor matchups against balanced and slow Skarm teams? Broadly speaking, it'll have to rush them down and try to win before they can exploit the team's weakness to spikes in a defensive battle. Moltres and Gengar provide an offensive core that's adept at exploiting Skarmory itself (as well as keeping spikes up against enemy spinners), but this is also where taunt comes in: with three taunt members, the team can ensure that it gets spikes and its opponent doesn't if both skarms are in, and also that skarm lead is neutralized if it attempts to spike. This buys you more time to get your offense going. Obviously there are other trickshot ways to use taunt, but on a team with such an obvious skarm weakness, I think this is the main purpose of taunt on three of the members. Taunting enemy Skarm also ensures that Moltres can enter without fearing toxic.

Your observation about Forretress is astute. I think the issue here is more that the team can't adequately punish pursuit Tyranitar (Forretress's perennial partner) than having an issue with the ball itself.

You're also more-or-less right about the water weakness. Starmie can be handled by Gengar if it enters on the spin especially, but Milotic becomes very hard to break, essentially forcing a PP stall. And Suicune is similarly tough. To tell you the truth, a lot of the sample teams were created in a way that ignores Suicune. People have this idea that you can handle Suicune's offensive potency simply by forcing it to be used as a defensive piece (which Moltres and Tyranitar force nicely), but planning for this strategy still allows a tragedy if Suicune manages to sneak by.

Here are my thoughts on your changes:

1. Ttar focus punch seems great. It seems viable for exactly the reasons you stated.
2. Protect over taunt makes the skarm mirror extremely hard for you.
3. Thunderbolt Blissey seems fantastic. You could go all-in and add Calm Mind over toxic, too, if you wanted. This allows you to still check cmers, though it makes your roar offcune matchup harder. Given the aforementioned Skarm weakness, I prefer a move to hit Skarm hard on this Bliss. I approve thunderbolt, even though it means you might lose to Raikou unless you switch to CMbliss.
4. I hate this Gengar. I don't think it solves the Forretress problem, because competent Forretresses will never try to "fight" your Gengar (either they'll switch out or they'll ignore you because they think you fear a suittar double). Meanwhile, the beauty of the existing Gengar is bound up in the fact that wisp + taunt + spikes lets you beat Blissey (or wear it down to the point that Moltres can beat it, 65% as you pointed out) with minimal guesswork. This is one of the main ways you force your offense through stall, and I'd hate to see you lose it to try and punish Forretress when suittar is still going to make that matchup very hard for you.

Here are some changes, maybe dumb, that maybe aren't dumb.

1. Metagross over Swampert. It provides a hard suittar punish, great for you. It also lets you accelerate harder against opposing spikes teams by blowing up. It can exploit a chipped Swampert or Metagross or Suicune that Tar provides. You have ice Bliss and Gar for physical mence already. Most important is that it lets you force the issue vs waters by threatening a boom, letting you accumulate spike chip, end a Suicune's sweep, and position around Milotic. The only problems are the vulnerability to Skarm (maybe you can go mixed to make this less of an issue?) and the fact that it opens a DDTar weakness. Of course, another truth about 3x taunt is that DDtar has a harder time setting up... And you can EV it to live earthquake after 1 DD, so maybe this is fine. By the way, it might be nice to switch to protox Moltres with this change, since Moltres becomes more important as a fire check with Meta granting fire entry, and protect means that you can ensure Meta doesn't take an EQ after Aero revenges Molt. Roar becomes less important with a strong physical Blissey punish like Meta, also.

2. Fit Zapdos on the team. Hypothetically you could fit it over Moltres, keeping the steel-checking (Skarm and Meta) while also allowing you to exert pressure vs the bulky waters that you hate so much. But I find so much of this team's charm is how the double-wisp + spikes overloads opposing status absorbers, so I think dropping Molt defeats the purpose. Maybe you could fit Zapdos over Blissey. A specially defensive Zapdos provides a lot of the same defensive utility that Blissey posseses with none of the spike weakness, and Tyranitar and Moltres minimize the potential weakness to ice that Zapdos brings with it compared to Blissey. If you went in this direction, you could even consider going all-in on superman and trading your pert for a Flygon, though maybe that change is too drastic.
 
flome said:
:tyranitar::skarmory::swampert::blissey::gengar::moltres:
I would like to talk about three observations I have made about the sample team I have been using as a new player over the past few weeks. I have about 300 games played with Eden's Moltres TSS team, with a rating anywhere from 1200 to 1500 on the gen3ou ladder. I've been having lots of fun and I wanted to try my hand at the skill of identifying what weaknesses this team has. Specifically, I want to know if there is something I could better understand about the purpose of the team, or if other players would corroborate these observations. Namely:

:Tyranitar::Skarmory::Gengar: 1. Taunt is not worth three moveslots
I would guess that a good player taking a look at this team would say that three Taunters--Tyranitar, Skarmory, and Gengar--is unusual. It would suggest that this move is strongly supporting the team's broader game plan, so I want to talk about what this team wants to do with Taunt.​
​
Taunt Tyranitar completely walls Skarmory, which is useful off the rip for forcing out Skarmory leads. Maybe I hit the jackpot and catch an incoming Swampert with Toxic, or Metagross with Earthquake. But this trick only really works once: I can't hereafter switch my Tyranitar in to Skarmory expecting to apply the same pressure, because they now have the threat of bringing in that same Swampert or Metagross for free on the Taunt. I can't both enforce the threat of the taunt and also punish switch-ins and free attacks, so it becomes a 50-50. My own Skarmory can run the same surprise again, but I don't think this is much better than just Spiking up alongside the opponent.​
​
Lategame there is a very satisfying scenario where a low-health Blissey switches into my Gengar's attack, hoping to heal up. I can surprise her with Taunt, allowing me to get in an extra turn before she can heal. If Blissey is too low to attempt switching out and back in again, this can allow Gengar (or maybe Swampert or Tyranitar if I have Spikes advantage, no Paralysis, and health to spend switching into Ice Beam) the time to finish off Blissey where otherwise she would have healed up. But this requires so many favourable conditions: Spikes advantge, health advantage, Taunt landing on the passive move; that it feels more like tapping in an already won game than being an integral part of the win. You certainly wouldn't say Taunt allows anybody to *1v1* Blissey--even if all the conditions are all in my favour, I'm still spending Gengar's health at 2:1 to finish her off.​
​
I see the synergy between Taunt and the Spikes game plan, and I accept that this is a high-skill move that a better player would find better opportunities to squeeze value from. I would really like to hear some theorymon on how I can better use Taunt to enable my gameplan. Ultimately these Pokemon have other very strong, more reliable, much simpler moves competing for the slot.​
​
:Suicune::Milotic::Starmie: 2. Status resistant Bulky Waters 1v6 me
Refresh and Rest give my team a lot of trouble on almost any Pokemon, and Taunt can disable those moves. So I tried to explore if this was a major explanation for Taunt on this team. The correct play with Refresh seems to be to instantly heal off any status without waiting even a single turn. I obviously can't just spam Toxic against someone using this strategy, because of its accuracy and PP disadvantage against Refresh. So I would need to be able to Toxic and then--with the same Pokemon--immediately outspeed and Taunt on the subsequent turn. I would then also need to be able to survive Surfs, even assuming the opponent doesn't just switch out of the Toxic buildup. This just isn't viable against something like Refresh Milotic, who outspeeds outdamages and outlives my two Taunt/Toxic users. The scenario where Gengar makes progress against Milotic here is similarly contrived. Rest and even Sleep Talk also end up being sound against Taunt against all but the most negligent players.​
​
The mere presence of certain status-resistant water types feels like an auto-lose. Milotic/Swampert's Refresh, Suicune's Rest, Starmie's Natural Cure. Blissey can switch in and wall them, but they also wall her and outlast her with their high PP moves. Gengar might be able to switch in once, but is ultimately overloaded. Surf means that Moltres is not a viable switch-in, so the remaining hope is to catch them with HP Grass 3HKO trying to switch into Flamethrower. Starmie can threaten to beat me in its capacity as a sweeper, as a bulky Water, or as a utility Spinner, though countering it is easier once I know which one it is. (This has been one of the most fun things to learn over the last few weeks: how so many Pokes threaten everything before they are scouted, and the little Poker game around figuring out which flavour of Tyranitar or Salamence they have.)​
​
:Forretress::Blissey::Moltres: 3. Forretress+Blissey takes Spikes advantage
Nothing on my team really makes progress by switching into Blissey. Maybe Tyranitars in general will threaten Blissey, but my set in particular can't set up on her or 2HKO. Spikes is the only way for this team to keep damage on Blissey. Nothing on my team can outdamage her heal (best I got is a shot at a 3HKO from Swampert or Tyranitar), and she keeps Toxic off with Natural Cure. But under spikes, she has to be paranoid about staying topped up, or else she won't be able to come in on Moltres' flamethrower. She'll eat 25% from the spikes, 20% from the switch-in flamethrower, then 20% on the outspeed. I feel like this was the idea behind choosing Moltres for this team. Once Spikes are up, Moltres overpowers even the Pokemon designed to switch into it. If Blissey's a bit lower, Skarmory (after Roaring her in) and even Gengar (who Blissey wants to switch in on) can also start to threaten her by taunting her Softboil. This is a little more fraught, as discussed at length above.​
​
This gameplan vs Blissey is so dependant upon Spikes that things fall apart if they have a decent spinner. Forretress illustrates this well, as he is better equipped to sit on Skarmory than the Toxic-and-Taunt-susceptible Claydol. When he Rapid Spins on Skarmory, he unravels any progress I can make against Blissey. This should cost him something, as a passive Pokemon inviting my Moltres a free Flamethrower shot. But with Spikes now cleared, Blissey is such a solid Moltres switch-in that no progress can be made. Not even the bulky waters can boast this, as they are risking a HP Grass 3HKO on the switch, and usually cannot OHKO Moltres.​

I want to thoroughly understand how this team works before I change it, but here are some small things I'm considering:
  • Give Tyranitar Focus Punch over Toxic. This maintains the role of punishing a switch after Taunt.
  • Give Skarmory Protect over Taunt. I also strongly consider Thief, but I want to be careful about trading one gimmick for another.
  • Give Blissey Thunderbolt over Seismic Toss, to better threaten bulky waters (and Skarmory). This probably has big trade-offs, like viability against CM users.
  • Use a more offensive Gengar with Thunderbolt/Ice Punch/Fire Punch/Explosion. This lets it better threaten Forretress while simplifying the threat vs Blissey.
You don't have to read the spoilers, just let me know what you think about the broad observations. I was going to post this as some sort of RMT, but I don't really think this matches that format. This also doesn't really fit in the Metagame Discussion thread since I don't come at this from a point of prior knowledge, and my scope is somewhat confied to this particular team. I know this is probably an odd and somewhat long post for this thread, but I thought this more rule-abiding than posting a thread of its own. Please let me know if this is inappropriate.
Click to expand...
Hi flome!

Thank you for your post! I wanted to try and tackle this, as this set of 6 Pokemon is very common and hopefully I can give some tips on how to use it and why the options were chosen. You are also more than welcome to make changes to the team and see how they work. Some of your suggestions are very good ones, as this sample was originally made years ago and may not have aged well for this metagame.

This team, especially by 2023 standards, is a very aggressive TSS team designed to a) hold off Spikes for as long you can as you have no way to mitigate Spikes either via spinning, having your best defensive pieces immune to them, of mag b) get sand and layers up immediately so Waters/Bliss remain low for Moltres and c) keep those layers up and punish opponents for relying on Blissey to absorb Gengar's and Moltres's Will-O-Wisp with Taunt and Roar, respectively. These teams try to win fast against opposing TSS teams with pressure from Taunt, aggressive predictions, and Moltres and maintain maximum potency with Gengar and Moltres against teams without Spikes while still having a strong defensive core in Tyranitar/Blissey/Swampert.

These teams became relatively uncommon for TSS in the following years as players realized it is quite difficult to keep opposing TSS teams from getting layers up with Taunt Skarmory, even with Taunt Tyranitar and Gengar. It requires you to aggressively predict when Spikers come in and Taunt them, which can be challenging against good players repeatedly throughout the game. Even one Spike is enough for opposing TSS to break through blissey and even Swampert. Many TSS teams, especially those with Gengar that often forgo Spinning, choose to use Flygon over Swampert or use the more resilient against residual damage Jirachi alongside Moltres. That way, you can get away with dropping Taunt on Skarmory as you arent as hellbent on preventing Spikes.

Despite what I just said, I still find this team challenging to play against at times. The advantage of Taunt on all of Gengar, Skarmory, and Tyranitar is that it makes this team relatively resilient to defensive counterplay to residual damage. Taunt Skarmory and Gengar also prevent Claydol from healing off Toxic with Refresh or Rest. While Milotic and Swampert can use Refresh and Suicune can Rest, aggressive play makes this hard to do, especially since Moltres 2HKOes Milotic and Suicune and OHKOes Swampert should they come in on 3 layers of Spikes with sand up. The most valuable member of your team is often Gengar -- if you can keep Gengar alive long enough to get an advantageous position before your opponent, you will often beat opposing TSS.

Onto your observations:

1) I think for this team to be consistent, having Taunt on Gengar and Skarmory is very good. Tyranitar can use a whole host of sets: one of the main advantages of this version of the team is because you are wholesale trying to prevent Spikes and then spinblocking with Gengar, you can afford to make Tyranitar physical. You don't need Pursuit Tar as much as you might with other structures, as it Pursuit traps Gengar and other spinners to keep the Spikes advantage. Physical Tar backed by Spikes is one of the best ways of pressuring Blissey and its switch ins -- sometimes to get that crucial advantage, all you need is one Taunt + Toxic combo and aggressive play to hold your advantage.

Having Taunt on Tyranitar though is crucial to maintaining an early Spikes advantage and putting yourself in position to capitalize on it, however. With Taunt of Tyranitar and Skarmory, you can very feasibly get one layer of Spikes up before your opponent can almost regardless of what Spiker they are using. This is extremely helpful. From reading your post, I think a new line to try is if Tyranitar is out vs Skarmory, use Taunt to prevent hazazrds and then switch to your own Skarmory to get layers on the switch in. Almost anything your opp will switch to early game is free reign for Skarmory to get layers. Your goal with this team isnt to wallbreak Swampert and Metagross with Tyranitar; it's to get layers up for Moltres and Gengar to break through Waters, Blissey, and Pursuit Tar.

I almost feel like youre underselling Wow + Taunt Gengar. Having a crucial defensive piece be able to force Blissey's and Milotic's hand is huge for Moltres. While yes, this will often take a lot of Gengar's health to do so, it can immediately put you in an advantageous situation with Moltres, as you should have the Spikes advantage. After you Taunt the opposing Skarmory and get layers, good players are going to try very hard to predict when Skarmory switches out and get their Skarmory in. This is a perfect opportunity for Gengar to get in and apply pressure with WIll-O-Wisp. From here, you can easily wear down Blissey or Celebi or whatever their pivot into Gengar is.

2) As for dealing with Refresh and Rest, it definitely requires some deft play. As all of Milotic, Suicune, and Swampert 2HKO Tyranitar and can make it hard for you to switch in with Toxic and their resiliency, they can be difficult to deal with. The way I see is to once against play highly aggressively. The first time they come in to Tyranitar if you cant hit them with Toxic is probably to switch to Skarmory and get Spikes and then go bliss once you have a layer or two. You can then try to predict a Recover or Refresh and get Gengar in if the opponent doesnt have Pursuit Tar, as this will often threaten out Suicune and Milotic while Swampert doesnt enjoy repeated Seismic Toss from Blissey. Once they switch out, again, being aggressive with Tar to Taunt their (hopefully) recovery on Toxic is critical. You will struggle to beat them if the game goes long -- try to win first with aggressive play. You often only have a few chances to do it before your overloading Pokemon get outlasted by Milotic. Maybe Wish for Blissey over Toxic might be helpful?

3) You have one of the best Blissey switches in the tier with Toxic Blissey, but your goal is to keep your Spikes advantage. Your opponent should be threatened to switch their Blissey into what you have if you get Spikes up. To your point about Forretress: playing against Forretress is a guessing game that made these teams unpopular for a time. You don't have quite enough aggressive pieces with just Moltres to hold off Forretress teams long term: you need to make aggressive reads to both spinblock Forretress and keep your Gengar alive against Pursuit Tar. If you fail to do this, exactly what you said would happen happens and you cant keep up Spikes. Typically you can Taunt Forretress as it switches into your Skarmory and then go to Gengar potentially on the Rapid Spin. Switch up your timing so you don't become so weak to Pursuit tar switching in.

As for your suggestions:

Focus Punch over Toxic is a very good idea, as this gives you a back up should your Moltres original plan fail. You will miss Toxic against Milotic specifically, but the threat of Toxic alongside Taunt is often good enough.

I would not recommend dropping Taunt on Skarmory unless you'd like to use a different special wall over the Blissey.

Thunderbolt is definitely an option over Seismic Toss, but I would not recommend that Gengar set alongside these Pokemon. You really really want at least Will-O-Wisp -- you can decide if Explosion or Taunt is better.

Redless also makes some excellent points. Hope this helps!
 
flome said:
:tyranitar::skarmory::swampert::blissey::gengar::moltres:
I would like to talk about three observations I have made about the sample team I have been using as a new player over the past few weeks. I have about 300 games played with Eden's Moltres TSS team, with a rating anywhere from 1200 to 1500 on the gen3ou ladder. I've been having lots of fun and I wanted to try my hand at the skill of identifying what weaknesses this team has. Specifically, I want to know if there is something I could better understand about the purpose of the team, or if other players would corroborate these observations. Namely:

:Tyranitar::Skarmory::Gengar: 1. Taunt is not worth three moveslots
I would guess that a good player taking a look at this team would say that three Taunters--Tyranitar, Skarmory, and Gengar--is unusual. It would suggest that this move is strongly supporting the team's broader game plan, so I want to talk about what this team wants to do with Taunt.​
​
Taunt Tyranitar completely walls Skarmory, which is useful off the rip for forcing out Skarmory leads. Maybe I hit the jackpot and catch an incoming Swampert with Toxic, or Metagross with Earthquake. But this trick only really works once: I can't hereafter switch my Tyranitar in to Skarmory expecting to apply the same pressure, because they now have the threat of bringing in that same Swampert or Metagross for free on the Taunt. I can't both enforce the threat of the taunt and also punish switch-ins and free attacks, so it becomes a 50-50. My own Skarmory can run the same surprise again, but I don't think this is much better than just Spiking up alongside the opponent.​
​
Lategame there is a very satisfying scenario where a low-health Blissey switches into my Gengar's attack, hoping to heal up. I can surprise her with Taunt, allowing me to get in an extra turn before she can heal. If Blissey is too low to attempt switching out and back in again, this can allow Gengar (or maybe Swampert or Tyranitar if I have Spikes advantage, no Paralysis, and health to spend switching into Ice Beam) the time to finish off Blissey where otherwise she would have healed up. But this requires so many favourable conditions: Spikes advantge, health advantage, Taunt landing on the passive move; that it feels more like tapping in an already won game than being an integral part of the win. You certainly wouldn't say Taunt allows anybody to *1v1* Blissey--even if all the conditions are all in my favour, I'm still spending Gengar's health at 2:1 to finish her off.​
​
I see the synergy between Taunt and the Spikes game plan, and I accept that this is a high-skill move that a better player would find better opportunities to squeeze value from. I would really like to hear some theorymon on how I can better use Taunt to enable my gameplan. Ultimately these Pokemon have other very strong, more reliable, much simpler moves competing for the slot.​
​
:Suicune::Milotic::Starmie: 2. Status resistant Bulky Waters 1v6 me
Refresh and Rest give my team a lot of trouble on almost any Pokemon, and Taunt can disable those moves. So I tried to explore if this was a major explanation for Taunt on this team. The correct play with Refresh seems to be to instantly heal off any status without waiting even a single turn. I obviously can't just spam Toxic against someone using this strategy, because of its accuracy and PP disadvantage against Refresh. So I would need to be able to Toxic and then--with the same Pokemon--immediately outspeed and Taunt on the subsequent turn. I would then also need to be able to survive Surfs, even assuming the opponent doesn't just switch out of the Toxic buildup. This just isn't viable against something like Refresh Milotic, who outspeeds outdamages and outlives my two Taunt/Toxic users. The scenario where Gengar makes progress against Milotic here is similarly contrived. Rest and even Sleep Talk also end up being sound against Taunt against all but the most negligent players.​
​
The mere presence of certain status-resistant water types feels like an auto-lose. Milotic/Swampert's Refresh, Suicune's Rest, Starmie's Natural Cure. Blissey can switch in and wall them, but they also wall her and outlast her with their high PP moves. Gengar might be able to switch in once, but is ultimately overloaded. Surf means that Moltres is not a viable switch-in, so the remaining hope is to catch them with HP Grass 3HKO trying to switch into Flamethrower. Starmie can threaten to beat me in its capacity as a sweeper, as a bulky Water, or as a utility Spinner, though countering it is easier once I know which one it is. (This has been one of the most fun things to learn over the last few weeks: how so many Pokes threaten everything before they are scouted, and the little Poker game around figuring out which flavour of Tyranitar or Salamence they have.)​
​
:Forretress::Blissey::Moltres: 3. Forretress+Blissey takes Spikes advantage
Nothing on my team really makes progress by switching into Blissey. Maybe Tyranitars in general will threaten Blissey, but my set in particular can't set up on her or 2HKO. Spikes is the only way for this team to keep damage on Blissey. Nothing on my team can outdamage her heal (best I got is a shot at a 3HKO from Swampert or Tyranitar), and she keeps Toxic off with Natural Cure. But under spikes, she has to be paranoid about staying topped up, or else she won't be able to come in on Moltres' flamethrower. She'll eat 25% from the spikes, 20% from the switch-in flamethrower, then 20% on the outspeed. I feel like this was the idea behind choosing Moltres for this team. Once Spikes are up, Moltres overpowers even the Pokemon designed to switch into it. If Blissey's a bit lower, Skarmory (after Roaring her in) and even Gengar (who Blissey wants to switch in on) can also start to threaten her by taunting her Softboil. This is a little more fraught, as discussed at length above.​
​
This gameplan vs Blissey is so dependant upon Spikes that things fall apart if they have a decent spinner. Forretress illustrates this well, as he is better equipped to sit on Skarmory than the Toxic-and-Taunt-susceptible Claydol. When he Rapid Spins on Skarmory, he unravels any progress I can make against Blissey. This should cost him something, as a passive Pokemon inviting my Moltres a free Flamethrower shot. But with Spikes now cleared, Blissey is such a solid Moltres switch-in that no progress can be made. Not even the bulky waters can boast this, as they are risking a HP Grass 3HKO on the switch, and usually cannot OHKO Moltres.​

I want to thoroughly understand how this team works before I change it, but here are some small things I'm considering:
  • Give Tyranitar Focus Punch over Toxic. This maintains the role of punishing a switch after Taunt.
  • Give Skarmory Protect over Taunt. I also strongly consider Thief, but I want to be careful about trading one gimmick for another.
  • Give Blissey Thunderbolt over Seismic Toss, to better threaten bulky waters (and Skarmory). This probably has big trade-offs, like viability against CM users.
  • Use a more offensive Gengar with Thunderbolt/Ice Punch/Fire Punch/Explosion. This lets it better threaten Forretress while simplifying the threat vs Blissey.
You don't have to read the spoilers, just let me know what you think about the broad observations. I was going to post this as some sort of RMT, but I don't really think this matches that format. This also doesn't really fit in the Metagame Discussion thread since I don't come at this from a point of prior knowledge, and my scope is somewhat confied to this particular team. I know this is probably an odd and somewhat long post for this thread, but I thought this more rule-abiding than posting a thread of its own. Please let me know if this is inappropriate.
Click to expand...
I think that if you want to improve the matchup into Pursuit Tyranitar + Forretress teams, you can try using Will-O-Wisp + Giga Drain on Gengar. It gives you a good chance of beating Pursuit Tar with Will-O-Wisp + Spikes up. If you keep your Gengar alive and reasonably healthy, then Forretress can't spin and you get to keep your spikes, which puts you at a big advantage. It also has the bonus of helping vs Claydol. I also agree with the things stated by johnnyg2 above.
 
Some things that were not mentioned -

Having a ttar faster than cune and milo with rock slide, fpunch and two of dedge/taunt/eq can catch and 2hko them especially after milo takes spikes + wisp damage.

If you're not using tox bliss then wish is also a possibility. It will let you heal skarm somewhat indefinitely which helps when facing opposing toxic users. Snatch is also a cool idea - I've never tried it on this 6 but it stops refresh and softboiled and even rest if you are at full hp.

To help vs pert you can also use toxic refresh pert yourself. This however would fit better with wish than toxic blissey I think, as the intention is to play a longer game instead of catching those opportunities to 2hko blissey with eq and wishbliss has stoss for calm minders, and molt kind of does the same things as eq (hit steels) anyway.
 
hi, me again. is there any way that entei could be a viable mon to use in the current meta? if so, what set and how to build? thinking sunny day + 3 attacks as a late game sweeper, is this good? what are some good partners and cores?
 
TrulyDevious said:
hi, me again. is there any way that entei could be a viable mon to use in the current meta? if so, what set and how to build? thinking sunny day + 3 attacks as a late game sweeper, is this good? what are some good partners and cores?
Click to expand...
Entei @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 120 HP / 240 SpA / 148 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sunny Day
- Hidden Power Ice
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
This is a smogon set I've seen on ladder before and it was pretty solid. It likes being paired with dug who can helped eliminate special walls and tyranitar who is probably your biggest enemy for this mon. Celebi and Jirachi could help pass key calm minds and subs to enhance your wall breaking prowess (Celebi is especially great versus the bulky waters).
 
hey guys. Im an old player (~10 years, this acc is from 2013 and the account Paaadeli has some of my old activity on it, I recently recovered this one) and have been playing adv on the ladder casually the last year or so.

I was hoping a more experienced player could tell me why whenever I use the following team, I shoot straight up to 1700 on the ladder. I made it, but I don't understand why it works. I kinda hate the team, lol. Please explain to me why its actually good, or reassure me that its ass!

The team has peaked 1802 (no proof of that! But I'm 1704 rn for instance: Screenshot 2024-01-08 193140.png

Here's the pokepaste for the team: https://pokepast.es/496a157cc69f32bf

tyranitar.png
skarmory.png
gengar.png
swampert.png
zapdos.png
starmie.png


Tyranitar (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 96 HP / 240 Atk / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Taunt
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance

Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 248 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Protect
- Whirlwind

Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 168 HP / 164 SpD / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Punch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunderbolt
- Taunt

Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 84 Def / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Rash Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Focus Punch

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 84 Atk / 148 SpA / 132 SpD / 144 Spe
Mild Nature
- Drill Peck
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Hydro Pump


Since its 2024, no doubt these 6 have appeared together before, so its of course nothing new. It's just skarm/tar/gar TSS with some weird things going on I feel like. Let me just try to recall how I made it, and then somebody more experienced can maybe pick it apart and explain why it works:

I started off in ADV using Kerts team with Jolteon. I loved offensive starmie with spikes but not so much jolteon cause Claydol is everywhere now. So I tried to build around starmie without jolteon but keep up the offensive idea.

I left skarm, and picked taunt tar for the tar set. This tyranitar is so filthy early game. It is extremely consistant at revealing swampert/flygon/claydol early, and if they don't have those as rock resist, because skarmory is complete bait for this tar, some matches the game ends extremely early. I think my idea with the spread on the tar was to maximize my ability to get +2 in the early game. 400 attack points adamant allows me to kill bulkless salamence at +0, which happens surprisingly often because of mence pivoting. It's disgusting, this set. I win a lot of games with it.

As for the others, I wanted taunt gar and FP off pert to maximize my ability to hit blissey and keep spikes off since I'm using spinless starmie. I don't remember why the zapdos is mixed with twave, certainly though I remember that celebi was on my mind. Drill peck pressures celebi/blissey surprisingly well.

I don't really like it because offensive swampert is completely awful with no spinner, this team does lose to aero sometimes. But there is counterplay to that, because of the taunt spamming going on. I've even put triple taunt on skarm before. If I can manage to taunt on skarm even just once, usually there aren't spikes on my side, because all my pokemon (except skarm, which is why I want to put taunt on it too sometimes) are strong into skarmory.

Again though, swampert is kinda not. Offensive swampert for me really fails to be strong offensively and reliably defensively, its just ass at both. I could use surf/protect/FP defensive instead, maybe.

If I had to guess, I'd say it just works because taunt tar lead is excellent at chipping things early (or winning...) and together with the added taunt from gar (or skarm), spikes stay off, and in those games I'm safer using offpert against aero. If theres no aero (or jolt), 4 attacks starmie is really really strong as a cleaner with all the blissey traps on the team (again, taunt gar, FP pert, drill peck zap). 4 attacks also allows us to outspeed and kill offensive gengar which is really huge and unique to starmie: this also helps the other members, I think.

Some obvious flaws in its consistancy are the many missing moves, no spin, zapdos weakness, aero, a few other pokemon are strong into it too. But, it wins a lot of games on the ladder.

Anyways I'm sick of typing: hopefully somebody more experienced can rectify this for me. Thanks for reading!

-Padeli
 
I know older generations have different tiering methods once they aren't current (and I don't think adv used the usage stats for it back in the day anyway), but is there a reason in that there are so many uubl pokemon? There's more than enough for them to make up an entire tier, but instead there's heaps of mons just sitting in uubl with nothing to do in OU. Has there been any talk about uubl being its own tier?
 
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