Implemented ADV LC Doduo Suspect Test (Doduo not banned)

[grape tylenol]

update: Doduo was not banned https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-lc-doduo.3733132/post-9914480



Thanks to the Todd Bonzalez ADV LC Open and LPL 11 (for those who are unaware, a popular Discord team tournament featuring many different LC metagames,) the ADV LC metagame has seen a lot of development. During LPL 11 (which is just wrapping up this week,) Choice Band Doduo became very popular, warping the metagame around it.

Doduo is extremely strong, with only 3 viable defensive checks (Porygon, Koffing, and Duskull.) While Koffing and Duskull are solid answers, Porygon is easily invalidated by a non Choice Band set or by Spikes. Doduo's power is amplified by the tier lacking Normal resists, and by the few Ghost types in the tier getting hit hard by Drill Peck. Doduo is also surprisingly fast, being outsped by only 4 viable Pokemon (Diglett, Elekid, Voltorb, and Abra, all of which can be trapped by Diglett or Trapinch!) Once chipped, these 4 Pokemon are very easily picked off by a Quick Attack:

Damage Calculations

236 Atk Choice Band Doduo Quick Attack vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 13-16 (72.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO*
236 Atk Choice Band Doduo Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Elekid: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Choice Band Doduo Quick Attack vs. 36 HP / 116 Def Voltorb: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Choice Band Doduo Quick Attack vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Abra: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

*Note that Diglett is a shaky check to Doduo, as it needs to Substitute down to its Liechi Berry (or run Choice Band) and connect with Rock Slide to OHKO Doduo.

Doduo forcing physically defensive checks in the builder also artificially makes special attacking Pokemon like Abra much stronger. Special attackers combined with Doduo become especially difficult to deal with, as its hard to make room for multiple physically defensive Doduo checks as well as specially defensive Pokemon.

As LPL went on and Doduo became more popular, players started voicing their concerns. Unsurprisingly, a survey I sent out to LPL players revealed that 50% of players who responded wanted to see tiering action taken on Doduo. As such, the ADV LC council has decided to run a suspect test on Doduo.

Please keep discussion in this thread as to whether or not Doduo is broken, as we have already decided to run a suspect test. Anyone is welcome to discuss, even if you aren't a qualified voter. If you are unable to post in this thread, you can request access here. The list of qualified voters is as follows:

Qualified Voters

ADV LC Open Top 4 (4): Quinn, Flou, ElectricityCat, MOHAMEDALL
ADV LC players in LPL who won at least one game (9): Shing, BlackKnight_Gawain, TRowePrice667, Tack, Medeia, teamo, Kaboom, Concept Everything, DreamyFleur
August 2023 RoA Spotlight Tournament Top 2 (1): Greedy_eb
November 2023 RoA Spotlight Tournament Top 3 (1): reggg
Suspect Tournament Winners (or Runner Ups) (3): zeroouttathere, VTMagno, Cawil Maxamad

Total: 18 unique voters

Live Suspect Tournament Times (in GMT-5):
Saturday December 16th, 2023 at 12:00pm (noon)
Wednesday December 20th, 2023 at 8:00pm
Friday December 22nd, 2023 at 5:00pm
Sunday December 24th, 2023 at 2:00pm

The live suspect tournaments will be held in the Ruins of Alph room on Pokemon Showdown.

This thread will be open for discussion for 2 weeks, and voting will begin on Sunday, December 24th, 2023.

 

[Concept]

Doduo, is an unstoppable force within the tier and with this is a Pokémon that can never be properly defensively checked within the metagame. It has great STAB and offensive movepool but no viable defensive counterplay. It can hit the entire tier heavily with the most common way to counter Doduo is to sack a Pokémon then go into something faster or winning the Doduo speed tie. The issue with this concept is nothing is preventing the opponent from doing the same exact thing and going into a counter for the opposing switch-in. Because of this the game eventually comes down to who can bring in their Doduo the most and dismantle the opponents team first. The best outplay to this is the opponent predicting this and clicking substitute which just isn’t viable in every situation as now they’re forced into a position where they have to sub but for the non banded variants of doduo this potentially leaves an opening with quick attack with the heightened crit and double damage of ADV this effectively makes every Quick Attack into a potential revenge kill with a crit if you attacked the substitute previously.

The “best” defensive checks within the tier are the two levitating ghosts, Gastly and Duskull because of their immunity to Double-Edge and Quick Attack respectively, but then this comes across another issue. Gastly is the same speed tier as Doduo and commonly runs endure Salac Berry just to guarentee that is can outspeed and revenge Doduo with either Explosion or Thunderbolt, but because of this you can pretty freely go into any Pokémon that lives Thunderbolt and any other coverage option and force the Explosion. Gastly also has an unfavorable roll to live Drill Peck from non-banded variants of Doduo if it has zero defensive investment, so not only do you have to win the speed tie if you are a sub variant, but you also need to manage to not take any unnecessary damage throughout the game to live a damage roll.

236 Atk Doduo Drill Peck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gastly: 17-21 (89.4 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Drill Peck is a move that is easily spammed from Doduo as it still hits a lot of the OHKO/2HKO rolls on most Pokémon within the tier, bar being not very effective, banded still 2HKOs or OHKOs the entirety of the metagame with a crit and non banded variants can indulge in Drill Pecking any resisted switch-ins and then unilaterally guarantee the kill through Double-Edge or Hidden Power, this problem is only further expedited through spikes support as rapid spin is not a viable option within the tier and the chip from spikes put every Nuetral Pokémon within range of banded Double-Edge. At three layers everything within the tier is in range of being OHKO’d; at one layer common defensive Pokémon such as Porygon are now guaranteed OHKO’d bar maximum bulk which is still a roll

236 Atk Choice Band Doduo Double-Edge vs. 156 HP / 116 Def Porygon: 23-28 (92 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

236 Atk Choice Band Doduo Double-Edge vs. 156 HP / 116 Def Porygon: 23-28 (92 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

236 Atk Choice Band Doduo Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Porygon: 21-25 (80.7 - 96.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

The saving grace of Doduo clicking Double-Edge is the fact it wears itself down quickly, but by this point the destrucrion has already been done and your team is no longer prepared to go against the opposing team. Bare in mind I didn’t discuss Hidden Power which further lowers its potential checks. Although team preview does not yet exist it’s a reasonable assumption to assume that every competitively viable team has a Doduo on it and thusly needs to be accounted for when teambuilding, it heavily influences building any team within the metagame and in my opinion should not be allowed within the tier for the oppressiveness it has within the builder and every competitive battle. I did not discuss any potential Sitrus Berry checks as they’re all limited in their recovery and still affected by coverage options Doduo carries.

I’m sick and it’s past midnight when I decided to write this, so I apologize for any grammatical or formatting errors. Although I’d love for it to remain in the tier because I like abusing brokens, it’s really not something I can advocate for.

 

[Éric]

in my opinion, this mon should go. in my experience with this tier, this has always felt like the most oppressive mon in the metagame by a mile.
adv lc is an extremely offensive tier, where your check to any given mon is taking 80% and eating your sitrus berry. that is true to pretty much every offensive mon, except doduo. this bird hits so hard it basically ohkoes everything but duskull. its offensive power is way beyond any other mon in the tier, while being too fast to handle.
playing and building adv lc ive always felt like the only reasonable doduo counterplay was stacking a bunch of faster flying resist and a normal resist, and predicting. this is pretty much as volatile as it gets, because if you predict wrong, you die, and if doduo isnt choices you lose. however, this is pretty much the best you can do, and admittedly some of the normal resists like anorith and larvitar can win games in front of doduo.
however, i think doduo is too extreme, and does its job too well for it to be healthy. if this tier hadnt been created only months ago, it wouldve been banned a long time ago

 

[reggg]

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I do not believe Doduo should be banned from the tier, and I want to share my reasons why. Concept and Eric are right that Doduo is the most dominant offensive presence in the tier, and I've felt like that for a long time. In the first ever ADV LC Survey in June during the Todd Bonzalez tournament, I voted Doduo as the most problematic element, so I completely understand where people's concerns come from. The list of things that Doduo can't ohko with Double Edge is rather short, along with its speed and not being able to be trapped by Arena Trap make it a potent hit and run style mon. However, as I played more and the meta developed, I've come to believe that the bird offers a benefit to the tier and isn't as oppressive as others may think.

First off, I want to go through parts of VR to show how Doduo matches up vs the rest of the tier. The assumption for all of these is that Doduo is running Choice Band, the far superior set to anything else. While Sitrus of Silk Scarf can catch you off guard in certain scenarios, those sets are much less threatening and in no way could be considered broken.

Going through the VR

The Physically defensive porygon spread that became popular during LPL was a major development in helping manage Doduo. It offers the ability to be a long term Doduo check, or able to trade with it.


Outspeeds and OHKO's with Psychic, and while it can be picked off with Quick Attack if chipped, it often runs sub to avoid that scenario.


Outspeeds and is able to KO with rock slide after a small amount of chip on Doduo. During the course of the game this can happen easily with Doduo clicking Double Edge.


Outspeeds and threatens with thunderbolt, although the Elekid user has to be careful of letting it in too early as the Spdf Diglett that popped up lets it easily be trapped. Can be used as an emergency Flying resist as well, while also punishing with Static.


The common spread dies to Double Edge, but it can be EV'd to live Doduo as we saw during LPL. Either way, this makes Doduo take major recoil damage from DE, making it much easier to handle throughout the course of the game via your own priority or having limited its chances to click Double Edge later on.


Immune to normal but will die to Drill Peck, Gastly is best suited as an offensive check that can come in on a scenario where Doduo is forced to click Double Edge to pick up a KO, and can then take advantage of free turns. In less ideal scenarios where it is not endure Salac, it can force a speed tie with Doduo. I don't find this particularly egregious of Doduo, its something that we see plenty of throughout games in the 18 19 20 speed tiers.


Dies to DE, but is able to force a chipped Doduo out if it is in Quick Attack range. Priority is always useful against an opposing Doduo.


Able to resist the stronger stab move, Eric mentioned how Anorith is able to take advantage of Doduo via a SD with Sub or Salac. It also shares the same speed tier, but if forced into the scenario where the Doduo user wants to stay in, they are forced to click Drill Peck which is much easier to handle.


One of my favorites, Koffing is one of the few that is always able to live a CB Double Edge, and is able to threaten back with Sludge Bomb of Thief. Removing a Doduo's CB is good counterplay, as it is no longer to deal out the OHKO'ing damage that it did previously. It also cannot be trapped by Arena Trap via Levitate which is a major benefit.


Similar to Koffing, but immune to the Normal STAB. Duskull is less immediately threatening as not all sets may be able to KO Doduo even after some chip, but sets often include some variation of wisp, ice coverage, and a Hidden Power to deal some damage. Thiefing away the CB is also a good thing in this scenario. Also is not able to be trapped via Levitate.


Lives a CB Double Edge after Intimidate and can threaten with Return or Thunder Wave.


Similar situation to Elekid


Outruns Doduo and threatens to OHKO, and not being weak to Arena Trap if healthy keeps it involved throughout the game.


Resists both STABS, and is able to threaten a DD. Not a common pick but we still see it on certain spikes or set up teams. It dies to HP Ground but that is not a move Doduo often wants to be clicking.


Resists both STABS, but is easily trappable and dies to HP Ground so is in a similar situation to Larvitar but without the set up move. We've started to see some more exploration of Magnemite recently which I think is nice.

The Points I want to make

Okay, this is a significant portion of the meta but not everything. The rest of the mons, things like Chinchou (Didn't mention is but is good to get a free turn when Doduo is locked into Drill Peck), Exeggcute, Horsea, Pineco, Cacnea, Clamperl and Cubone are where Doduo shines in coming in on. Doduo is at its best when it gets a free turn to come in on something that is slower than it and can die to Double Edge. It is extremely strong in this manner, and does its job like nothing else.

However, I believe that while there are mons that Doduo abuses, the meta is just as full of mons that abuse it in return. The purpose of me going through the VR was to show that the meta is not helpless against this bird, that many of the Pokemon either offensively check it or are able to act as a switch in. ADV LC is an extremely fast paced meta, but so are the mons that its comprised of. Its not uncommon to see teams where 3 or 4 of them are 18 speed or higher, not to mention teams with weather to boost their speed. Good teams will and should naturally be able to handle Doduo through various means, even if there initial counterplay goes down, i.e. Elekid getting trapped but then having Porygon trap the opposing Diglett so that your Abra will still be able to always revenge kill Doduo.

In my opinion, the reality of games are not just "Doduo comes in clicks OHKO button", but that the Doduo user has to carefully position themselves into and endgame where they can achieve that scenario after removing the faster pokemon or chipping the defensive ones, all while having to remain healthy from recoil damage or opposing priority. Its the best at what it does, but I don't think that it is overbearing anymore than Abra is overbearing as a Calm Mind sweeper, Diglett is as an ever present trapper, or Porygon is as a wall that outlasts everything.

On a final note about Porygon, I believe that Doduo's role in the meta in threatening Porygon is actually healthy. Doduo may be the strongest offensive presence, but Porygon is still the best and lives damn near anything the meta can throw at it. Without Doduo, we would lose a vital portion of the meta that can threaten to KO Porygon from a high %, and would allow Porygon to invest in spreads that live even more outrageous things. For example, Porygon's may simply start running full special bulk to completely shut Abra, having a chance to live even +2 Psychic. Instead of a "do it all" set, Porygon's are forced to choose their role in the team builder, whether than be Phys Def, Spdf, some variotion of mixed, slight attack invest, etc. By having Doduo in the tier, you force people to choose in the builder what version of Porygon they want to run and have the proper teammates accordingly, which in my opinion is a good thing.

To summarize, while Doduo is the most potent offensive threat in the meta, it is easily threatened back with faster pokemon or defensive pokemon that force it to choose between dealing damage or switching out, and every team will have some combination of these mons. It also requires skillfull piloting to reach a scenario where it is able to sweep, something that is true of plenty of other pokemon such as Abra, Elekid, Anorith, Clamperl, and Horsea. And finally, it also provides the meta a healthy way to check Porygon, the most popular and dominant presence in the tier with its ability to heal back to full and live near any hit. Thank you for reading, and I hope that you will vote Do Not Ban.

 

[Shing]

I am in the middle on Doduo atm, despite wanting a suspect on it on the survey. There's a side where I find it problematic yet there's another side of mine where I believe its presence provides something that most others aren't able to provide.

So why did I feel like Doduo is warranted for a ban?
Let's start with the defensive checks/counters. So besides the ones Grape Tylenol mentioned, you've Bulky Snubbull and Onix which would be the ones you would see switching in vs Doduo. However, besides Onix, there's a pattern I see that most of them are slow(10 speed as max usually) and very vulnerable to Special Wallbreakers, even Porygon to some degree. While I don't think this problem is a big deal, I wanted to point out that all of them are slow, and most of them kind of share the same checks overall, easier to cover the checks at once.
A scenario I am thinking of is when the Lead Doduo forces the opponent to switch out to their Doduo to check if their lead MU is outsped and OHKO'd. A powerful strategy I've figured out is switching to a Special Attacker that's able to threaten most if not all of them in T2 since that's how you have to react vs Doduo if given a wrong lead MU. I switched in 12 Speed Clamperl as a reaction to that, which is slow but fast enough against all checks besides Onix and OHKO them(Physdef Porygon is a little more complex issue where it has 12,5% percent with Max Health + 76 SpDef EVs to survive, but makes it vulnerable vs DD mons). I call her the "Slower Special Wallbreaker Doduo" with fewer checks since almost no one can switch into it as well. As again, not a big deal since most special attackers aren't breaking Porygon, but it felt like it was quite easy to exploit all Doduo checks with one mon.
I don't think this has been spoken so much, but IMO it feels like Doduo is one of two Pokemon that forces me to have at least 2 to 3 fast Pokemon to either be faster or have the same speed tier as Doduo delete the slower ones with ease. This isn't a bad thing which I'll talk about in the no-ban section, but there's little denying it as Doduo's one of the biggest contributors that forces teams to have faster mons in their team. Now what I don't like is that most of the faster ones are easily trapped by Diglett/Trapinch, only Staryu and Tailow don't get trapped, which both are more uncommon and far easier to play against. Being a flying type means that it'll avoid being trapped by Diglett, avoid taking spikes dmg which has been rising recently, and make it the best hit-and-run Pokemon in the tier. You'll more than likely see it till the end than you would be able to damage it. Not confident to confirm that, but Dodou kind of feels like it will create more 50/50 speed ties than most other mons.


Despite all this, I am extremely hesitant about banning it, why?
I like the fact it's a powerful hitter that creates a little dilemma on Porygon's Bulk where Porygon has to think about the bulk before using the same tanky set as always. Despite how exploitable the checks can be, Doduo gives those mons a little more reason to be used and most of them have something different to provide after the Doduo interaction. Without Doduo, I think most of them will fall in usage, and it'll be more difficult to challenge Porygon from the physical side. Besides that, Physdef Porygon is a consistent Pokemon that prevents Doduo from sweeping your team.
I also think the speed dynamic wouldn't change a whole lot since teams have always used two faster mons regardless if it gets banned or not. People do want to prepare for Gastly, Anorith, and Abra as well, so there will be 50/50 existing without Doduo. There is also that Doduo won't always be guaranteed to sweep right away at late games since most people pull their faster mons at the end.
For the last part, I appreciate we have a wall breaker that isn't affected by trapping since I find Diglett traps way too many fast Pokemon that things become a little too centralized because of it. A bonus is that it's one of the few priority users, and I find it important in a tier that has power fast mons that lacks scarf sets.


Doduo is ridiculously dumb for what it has going for, but it has a varied amount of physical checks and offensive revenge killers. What I don't like is that Doduo's weakness is extremely easy to cover and it doesn't feel like Doduo has any genuine weakness due to these factors. However, I don't think Doduo is any more oppressive than the other mons and has its healthy part in the meta. I'll decide ban or not on my vote since I'll never do an abstain vote since those are lame af.

Since you were so nice to read and maybe you're interested in trying Doduo, here's a team I'll give to you if you want to try the suspect test.

If you read the first paragraph, you'll somewhat understand how this team was built. Make some changes if you want, I don't mind that~

 

[ElectricityCat]

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I was never interested in contributing to any tier. I think I tried a single suspect test about 10 years ago, but playing more than 1 game a day was never my style. I also wasn't very interested in reading the threads. I clarify this because it's the first time I'm engaging with a suspect seriously, and perhaps my arguments don't follow conventions.

I believe Doduo should remain in the tier. From my perspective, Doduo is one of the Pokémon that defines the ADV LC metagame, one of the most representative. I feel it's necessary to maintain balance in the tier, similar to Snorlax in GSC.

Balance of ADV LC
ADV LC doesn't have a very extensive pool of "viable" options. There are approximately around 30 usable Pokémon. The rest have very specific or no utility, either due to their low stats or lack of movepool. Among these 30 usable Pokémon, the following stand out: Porygon, Abra, Elekid, Gastly, Doduo. In my opinion, Doduo plays a key role in the metagame by threatening Porygon. In a scenario where Doduo is banned, Porygon would wreak havoc in the metagame. It's very difficult to inflict residual damage on Porygon to be able to revenge-kill it without getting at least 1 or 2 mons paralyzed in the process. Porygon is incredibly strong, and the one that deals with it best is CB Doduo. Both are abusive, but both represent this tier and the metagame. Banning both would also mean that Abra and Elekid would become nightmares. Reggg explains this a bit better in his last point within the spoiler, and I think the same.

I believe that banning Doduo would lead to a series of suspects that would significantly reduce the variety of Pokémon in the tier (which is already very limited, with only 30 viable Pokémon).

Doduo is not invincible
It abuses speed ties and slow Pokémon a lot, but it receives revenge kills from many others and is not usually a safe switch for almost anything. Even recognizing Doduo's offensive virtues, I believe there are very good options within the tier to counter it. Before mentioning some of them, yes, none is a perfect counter. In this tier, there is no Eviolite, and the only recovery used consistently is Recycle on Porygon. Therefore, you will never find a counter that lasts more than 2 or 3 turns using its Sitrus Berry. The only wall with longevity in this tier is Porygon. It is generally a very offensive tier, so don't look for counters because 80% of the time, the only answer is Porygon.

That said, I haven't had problems dealing with Doduo as long as I have at least 2 Pokémon that can revenge-kill it (not very difficult) and 2 from the following list: -Koffing -Snubull -Porygon -Wailmer -Duskull -Gastly -Anorith -Larvitar

Possible alternative
The only problematic set for Doduo is Choice Band, due to its excessive power. Silk Scarf is an excellent item, but let's be realistic, it's used to bluff a Band and try to gain an advantage. The CB set is much superior. I would dare to say that Doduo is the only viable user of Choice Band. Thanks to having sufficient speed to not have to use Agility/DD/Salac Berry, it is top 5 in base attack stat and has a STAB move with 120 power. In addition, its typing is very good offensively. You could consider banning Choice Band instead of Doduo. But honestly, I feel that it would have almost the same impact on the metagame, and Porygon would become too strong, more than it already is.

Final words
I believe the tier is balanced; it's a highly offensive metagame, with just 30 usable Pokemon. Banning Doduo would mean disrupting this balance and, consequently, risking the need to conduct at least 4 or 5 more suspects. Who knows if they would lead us to a better metagame.

 

[grape tylenol]

The first live suspect tour has concluded! Congratulations to MOHAMEDALL, the winner!
Replays: Game 1, Game 2

The second live suspect tour has concluded! Congratulations to TRowePrice667, the winner! Because TRowePrice667 is already a qualified voter, and zeroouttathere is not, zeroouttathere will be qualified to vote in the suspect tour.
Replays: Game 1, Game 2

The next suspect tour will be held in the Ruins of Alph room on Friday December 22nd, 2023 at 5:00pm GMT-5, followed by the final tour on Sunday December 24th, 2023 at 2:00pm GMT-5. I hope to see you there!

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

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Your honor, Doduo deserves a ban because I think it'd be funny.

Read if you're boring and unconvinced.

Ok, jokes aside I think Doduo's presence in the tier is unjustified and long-term problematic.

An understated part of ADV LC is the emphasis on physical attackers, largely in part due to the generational mechanics being pre special/physical split and the lack of Choice Specs as an equivalent to Band. Compared to other LC tiers as well, a lot of mons with viability that traditionally check normal/flying spam are lacking the tools their future counterparts have — Onix and Magnemite being notable examples that can do this role in future generations but are underwhelming here. This means a fast mon like Doduo is naturally going to be a level of strength the tier doesn't appreciate, which in turn dictates the meta around its presence.

As others have touched, it seems fine in play and I'm inclined to agree — there's a skill level in not being swept by it and using it to sweep that relies on knowing the tier's teambuilding trends and being able to infer the right sequences. My issue with Doduo then is looking at the part I mentioned in my pre-amble: it's forcing a level of centralization that we've quietly accepted for better or worse, as healthy.

To digress a bit here, my number 1 request for a ban was actually Abra in part because of the CM sets being overwhelming. After talking with grape tylenol and some others, I thought about why exactly I felt Abra was broken: it goes back to the whole issue of the meta being so ready to deal with physical spam that its left itself wider open for special-oriented threats. Porygon, the ultimate glue guy of ADV LC, has to run a max physdef set to be a consistent Doduo check. A lot of mons that are arguably momentum-sapping in a fast-paced meta like Duskull are far more viable in part because Doduo demands respect in the teambuilder. LPL was an experimentation period for me in the builder to see in part how much I could deviate away from metagame trends as I felt teambuilding was becoming too same-y, with the same mon picks and structures for consistency.

I fully believe this is in part due to Doduo necessitating physically bulkier sets on many Pokémon such as Porygon, Wailmer etc. which hinders a lot of potential variation in the tier's current sets. Snubbull for example in a Doduo-less world, run a better optimized EV spread to accomplish different roles instead of being more physically defensive to check CB. Overprepping for Doduo in the builder also means it's easy to exploit people's Doduo checks. I brought CM Abra nearly every week in the back half of LPL in part because it exploits most of the Doduo checks as they can't run spdef investment to keep their role. I semi-seriously said weather feels frustrating to play, but this is also linked to Doduo's impact on the tier demanding Porygon and other glue mons be more physical oriented (weather sweepers are special oriented in this tier).

Despite all this, I could still grit my teeth and say it's fine for the most part had it not been for one last detail:

Access to priority.

ADV as a whole is dictated by ensuring innate speed control, as without Scarf existing yet your only external control is with Salac Berry which demands a certain level of prediction and positioning in ADV LC, or with Fake Out/Quick Attack. Fake Out has lower distribution and the first-turn drawback, but Quick Attack is largely free to click bar Static or Ghosts. Having access to a strong Quick Attack invalidates many faster checks like Abra, or softens them up for another sweeper in the back as losing Berry is big.

Relying on forced structures of physical defensive mons + a 18-20 speed tier being omnipresent discourages diversity in the tier, and forces a certain level of centralization even among the current VR which will likely remain similar post-ban. Doduo is not healthy for this tier and while this isn't immediately visible as we've managed to last long enough to consider it acceptable this long, I think it's warped the metagame in a way that's going to be long-term worse for a growing tier that has a lot left to explore. Get the bird out.

 

[grape tylenol]

The third live suspect tour has concluded! Congratulations to Shing, the winner! Because Shing is already a qualified voter, and VTMagno is not, VTMagno will be qualified to vote in the suspect tour.
Replays: Game 1, Game 2

As a reminder, the final tour suspect tour will take place in the Ruins of Alph room on Sunday December 24th, 2023 at 2:00pm GMT-5. The voting thread will be posted after the tour concludes.

 

[Kaboom]

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ADV LC is a tier with a lot of repetitive and necessary sequencing to its game play. Sub spam on slower targets to steal their Sitrus Berry, Porygon arena trapping each other, progress is established through these patterns and softening up threats into ~55-70% range to limit their potential at a 2nd life via Sitrus. Doduo does not play by these rules, Choice Band with just 1 layer of Spikes (in a tier with very limited rapid spin distribution/usage) set OHKOs every grounded mon with a neutral Double Edge, and 90% are accounted for prior to that spike. It also has the strongest priority in the tier, so able to revenge would-be game ending threats from high %. This reduces the game to denying as many opportunities for the Doduo to get in, and severely limits teambuilding. Stacking multiple normal resists/immunities is great for when you're able to win the prediction war, but the Doduo user gets multiple times throughout a game to retry, and one right guess can spell doom for your structure defensively. This is ignoring the pressure of the less egregious, but extremely fast and powerful threats like Abra or Elekid on teams that require adapations (sdef diglett being a notable innovation to check Elekid) for Doduo to benefit from.

Doduo isn't just a one trick pony with Choice band though, a lot of mons struggle to OHKO it w/o a SE move in their kit, so Sitrus Berry is a reasonable consideration. The reason to run Sitrus berry would primarily be on teams where you couldn't fit spikes, and instead of raw power, aim to just drill peck -> double edge to eliminate the Physdef Porygon, a hard check to the Choice Band Doduo set. This changes the formula for handling Doduo by a considerable degree. Free access to prio whenever its needed albeit weaker, and hidden power ground or grass to target magnemite, larvitar, etc. You generally cannot afford to challenge the set, esp when brought it on a chipped mon if u sack there could be no clarification on the set. Gastly being the most popular immunity to Double Edge means you're a speed tie away from Drill Pecking it to death as it thinks ur required to switch out. Overall lower highs, but a would be lure to cripple the only mandatory mon in the metagame, or snipe a kill on a would be problem like DD larvitar. Healing back to full off a double edge also is another lease on life if a team intends on throwing mons at it to be in range of your opposing priority, usually a QA Doduo of their own.

With Doduo gone we'd lose one of the biggest tools to pressure Porygon, and as the most reliable priority user theres a healthy aspect to its offensive presence, but teams would be much more varied, and able to afford slower bulkier tools to check the naturally fast sweepers, or Chloro/Swift Swim abusers instead of simply RKing with a Quick Attack from upwards of 60%. Clamperl, Cubone were already rising as suspect sentiments cried out, but thats because they simply are more mons with OHKO potential to rival Doduo, and create more of a reduction in gameplay choices and mid games. I would like to see more defensive mons shine, rather than be denied viability by their inability to threaten a Doduo from switching in and threatening to claim a kill. This is why I'll be voting to ban Doduo this coming vote.

 

[grape tylenol]

The final live suspect tour has concluded! Congratulations to Cawil Maxamad, the winner!
Replay: Game 1

The voting thread will be posted tonight. Thank you to everyone who participated in this thread and in the suspect tournaments!