Lower Tiers ADV NU Viability Ranking (found new host)

MZ

And now for something completely different
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Drop Torkoal, it's just not very good. Weak and not splashable at all, I've got no clue why it's next to Glalie and Raticate when it's simply not that effective at what it does. Move Golbat up to replace it, it's just as good as Murkrow imo if not better. Non-banded sets like Curse or w/e are really cool too. Graveler and Lickitung seem way too high for Pokemon that have gotten like, zero usage the last 2 NUPLs, and same goes for Furret/Lairon/Togetic one rank below. I admit these noms are more out of not being super experienced with why anyone would want to use those, but like Furrett next to Diglett and Graveler next to Kecleon and Pelipper really confuse me. Mid B rank in general is odd, to me it's the cutoff for what's good but only half the rank is, with the three I nominate to drop feeling noticeably out of place. Like below mid B is all the niche random stuff that you don't see on any average teams and I feel like those 3 below more in that category. Honestly the drop-off from mid B minus those 3 to everything else seems like such a severe viability shift I'd change those mons then use it as the cutoff for adv pu but that's not really important here.
 
Huntail just isn't the same meta-defining force anymore. It's really good, don't get me wrong, but it is not on the level of Hitmonchan and honestly I don't think its on the level of the Pokemon in mid S either. It's been so prepared for, every team has a bulky water (Wailord is everywhere and Dewgong is just as common), and Roselia is incredible.

On that note, Roselia needs to rise again. It's one of the very top Pokemon in the tier. Spikes are flourishing, and its the most reliable user of them. Its so customizable in moveset (Spikes obviously, Aromatherapy, Synthesis, Sludge Bomb, even HP Psychic is starting to be run more) and spread and its really difficult to guess what it is running.

I agree that Torkoal needs to drop.

Abra should drop. I tried using it this NUPL and its really bad. Its so frail, has a pretty bad lead matchup versus a lot of things, and I would only use it as a matchup pick versus somebody running a lot of say, Venomoth leads, or something like that.

Diglett is way too low. It is such a dangerous presence in the tier, able to trap and OHKO Flareon, Pikachu, and Mawile, and weakened Hitmonchan, Bellossom, Huntail, and OHKOs some Roselia after a Spike. This thing can turn the presence of games, and with how common so many things are (Flareon, Rose, Mawile, Pikachu, etc.) now I don't see many matchups where Diglett is dead weight in despite its specialized nature.

Golbat is better than Murkrow in my opinion.

Some other thoughts I have would include the possibility of dropping Sunflora, raising Crawdaunt, raising Castform, and possibly dropping Swalot even further.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
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Agree with all of that, except for Golbat being better than Murkrow. As cool as Sludge Bomb is and as much as I like the improved bulk, getting completely blanked by Steels and losing the ability to switch directly into Chimecho (without really gaining any other notable switch-ins) just isn't worth it to me. Beating out things like Vig, Pikachu and Abra is pretty nice Speed-wise as well. Golbat has some additional utility and I think it's definitely a good 'mon, but for my money Murkrow is the best of the CB flying types.

But yeah, 100% agree with a Rose rise + Huntail drop. I think Chan and Rose are pretty much the most important 'mons in the tier. Spikes are just that good.

Also, A- still feels a bit weird in general. Dewgong, Golbat, Plusle and Sudowoodo being in the same rank as Arbok, Kingler, Swalot and Whiscash just feels off. I mean those latter guys are all good, but still feel fairly niche compared to the former group. I'd consider moving Torkoal to A-, and moving all those folks down to B+ (possibly shifting down the B ranks accordingly).
 
--> Mid S
is it just me or does huntail never really play out as threatening as a S+ rank should be, the meta is quite prepared for it, imo deserves to drop

--> Mid S
rose is just great, set and spread adjustable however you need it, w extra options like sludge bomb, aromatherapy, hp psy being p good aswell

I'd agree on dropping this

--> Upper B/ Lower A
offers little defensive utility, and baton passing into it on a mawile doesnt work, but essentially shutting down flareons, pikachus, and a good amount of stuff after some spikes or some breaker did its thing is rly great

--> Upper B
i've not really felt the need to put this onto a team often and when i have i wasnt impressed, and i havent seen it at all (maybe 2 or 3 times) in all of the adv games i played, i get the chan counter aspect but i just dont think this is really worth lower a rank
 

Oglemi

Borf
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I've gone ahead and edited the OP with the changes I listed above, as well as moving Pupitar and Vigoroth into A, as I feel the 4 left in A+ are a slight cut above the rest that are in A in performance and the ease that they fit onto teams compared to the others.

As the metagame has become more and more Spikes-centric and leaning towards balanced teams, those without reliable recovery and those that rely on brute force have begun to feel more fringe as time as carried on, particularly old staples that are weak to Diglett and the dominant Pokemon in S like Sudowoodo, Torkoal, Swalot, Kingler, and Piloswine, representing their drop.

I'm further thinking of cutting S- out completely and merging them into A+. Definitely open to thoughts there.
 
Left off the list as it is bottom 5 worst pokemon in Gen 3. Even Geodude is better
Cool, thanks. Are there any other terrible pokemon left off the list? I'm completing a cartridge (near) perfect IV-EV pokemon run on fire red and I only need a few more, including Nosepass. I'm continually discovering a single pokemon I forgot because it's too terrible to even remember.
 

Oldamar999

Tien Time
can somebody revive this thread? I'd like to see more.

Also, can some people continue their Gen 3 NU analyses? some (such as wailord ect.) haven't been touched in weeks.
 

Oglemi

Borf
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can somebody revive this thread? I'd like to see more.

Also, can some people continue their Gen 3 NU analyses? some (such as wailord ect.) haven't been touched in weeks.
What do you mean revive? I just updated it, this isn't exactly a high-traffic metagame.

And the analyses /are/ being worked on, they're just extremely low priority
 

Disjunction

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hey, been thinkin about this thread cause of all the recent old gen lower tier talk + nupl and dunno how I feel about how it's sitting right now. I figure it'd be cool to bring up how I think the VR should look, get some discussion points, and we can shuffle stuff around after NUPL. I wanted to do this last year, but IRL was getting really complicated. Better late than never?

SPECIAL SPINK VR

S Rank: Reserved for the top threats in the NU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well with little to no extra support. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

  • Chimecho
  • Haunter
  • Hitmonchan
  • Roselia
  • Wailord
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the NU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively, but still perform less consistently than the average S rank Pokemon. A rank Pokemon have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

Top:
  • Bellossom
  • Flareon
  • Glalie
  • Metang
  • Sableye
Mid:
  • Diglett
  • Golbat
  • Huntail
  • Murkrow
  • Pikachu
  • Pupitar
  • Raticate
  • Relicanth
  • Torkoal
  • Venomoth
Low:
  • Cacturne
  • Dewgong
  • Kecleon
  • Mawile
  • Octillery
  • Tropius
  • Vigoroth
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are slightly above average in the NU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential

Top:
  • Arbok
  • Crawdaunt
  • Pelipper
  • Pidgeot
  • Plusle
  • Sudowoodo
  • Tangela
  • Whiscash
Low:
  • Abra
  • Graveler
  • Kingler
  • Lickitung
  • Piloswine
  • Seadra
  • Shelgon
  • Swalot
  • Togetic
  • Wigglytuff
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being top tier threats. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be as effective as higher ranked Pokemon in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.
  • Dragonair
  • Grovyle
  • Koffing
  • Lairon
  • Minun
  • Magcargo
  • Noctowl
  • Volbeat
  • Wartortle
  • Yanma
Instead of writing out a bunch of detailed descriptions, just gonna jot down some notes
  • I think chime's is arguably as good or better than chan. It supports the team in a million different ways, compresses a ton of different defensive niches into one, and still finds the room to be threatening as a sweeper.
  • Thought the s ranks were also p cluttered between three ranks so I simplified them into 2. I think chime and chan are pretty significantly above the others and the difference in viability between the other s ranks wasn't enough for a difference in ranks. I bet some people have arguments for rose and sab, though!
  • Huntail is a good offensive sweeper, but I think people mostly recognize it isn't the tier dominating threat it used to be. I would respect an argument for A+ if anybody wants to defend it, but I will pursue the discussion on keeping it out of S.
  • Also dropped Maw. I recognize this might be an odd call, it just feels exceptionally weak. It's a cool support pivot, but it can get caught in so many bad situations by the tier's heavy hitters. Definitely open to talking more about this.
  • Offensive Dewgong has fucked me up too many times for me to not recognize that it is at least as good as Wail. Metang and Glalie are also really good, been liking teams with them more and more. Brought all those to A+
  • Shuffled various shit around between A and B ranks. Will list some misc standouts. Don't like Pidge much nowadays because it always feels outdone by either Krow or Rat. Rat's faster/marginally stronger and only lacks the (underwhelming) flying STAB and if you're missing the Spikes immunity, you're likely going to want Krow anyways. Whiscash, Tangela, Kingler, and maybe some others are awkward to fit on teams so I stuck em further down. Kec, Peli, Crawdaunt, and Octillery are all cool dudes so I brought them up. Dropped some other various B shit that likely isn't important.
  • Cleaned up C rank a ton. I think there was an absolutely unnecessary amount of unviable stuff in there, and I know a lot of people have been griping about how it looked. I split it into 2 ranks (edit: just made it one) instead of keeping three since I don't think there's a huge difference in power between these mons. I'm sure somebody has something to say on these.
    • For convenience sake, I unranked all of Seaking, Lilleep, Ponyta, Quilava, Weepinbell, Corsola, Ledian, Mightyena, Parasect, Spinda, Trapinch, Aipom, Duskull, Dustox, Illumise, Sealeo, Staryu, Shuckle. edit: I unranked more stuff but I forgot what lol. hopefully nobody cares a lot about these low ranks
Oh, and to be clear, I'm doing this to spark discussion. I wouldn't feel right unilaterally changing the VR based on my own opinions. If other people want to write up versions of what they think the VR should look like I think that'd be cool to see too.

editing in some notes as I'm changing stuff around over the course of nupl.
  • changed to 1 s rank. flareon and sableye down to a+
  • mawile/huntail down to a
  • vigoroth down to a-
  • unranked poliwhirl, anorith, castform, dunsparce
  • dropped pidge to b+
  • clamperl down to c
  • swalot down to b
  • piloswine and shelgon down to b-
  • torkoal up to a-
5/2/19
  • Beedrill, Charmeleon, Clamperl, Drowzee, Seviper, Sunflora, Shedinja unranked
  • Dragonair, Lairon, Minun, Volbeat, Wartortle, Yanma, Magcargo to C
  • Plusle down to B+
  • B ranks are only 2 ranks now
5/12/19
  • Diglett to A
  • Cacturne to A-
5/20/19
  • Oct to A-
  • Venomoth to A
5/27/19
  • Wailord to S
  • Torkoal to A
  • Mawile to A-
  • Pelipper to B+
  • Koffing to C
  • Dewgong down to A-
 
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Oglemi

Borf
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That is one STEEP drop for Huntail lol. I definitely agree it is probably not an S rank anymore, or at least does not hold the same amount of influence as it used to. People finally seemed to catch on that Dewgong and Wailord just kind of sit on it and he won't sweep if you keep them alive. That said, he is still by far the most dangerous late-game mon, or at the very, very least at the same level as Bellossom. You really don't have to hit too many ticks to open up a sweep for him (get Rose to ~50%, get Dewgong/Wail to ~30%, don't let him get paralyzed) and he has WAY fewer overall checks/counters in the teambuilder than Bell or other comparable mons like Pupitar.

Don't know if I agree with a rise on Metang either, I feel he's a little overvalued in general. He's just such a weird middle of the road mon, and the Agility set is very underwhelming from what I've seen. Explosion is always great obv and the fact that he doesn't just cave to stuff like Wail like Mawile does is always nice I suppose, so I think he deserves a solid A rank, but I just feel A+ is overselling it a little.

The only other ?? I had looking at your list was Octillery in A-. I'm all up on Octillery believe me, but unless BP chains to him have caught on a bit more or something, or like yellow magic teams, I just don't think he's a "top tier" mon at all. He's a solid anti-meta niche pick no doubt, and one of my favorite leads, but you have to sacrifice just way too much in either bulk or speed to get the most out of him. In any case, him and Pidge are not at all on the same level

Overall agree with a lot of your changes, especially the lower rank purge
 
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Disjunction

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That is one STEEP drop for Huntail lol. I definitely agree it is probably not an S rank anymore, or at least does not hold the same amount of influence as it used to. People finally seemed to catch on that Dewgong and Wailord just kind of sit on it and he won't sweep if you keep them alive. That said, he is still by far the most dangerous late-game mon, or at the very, very least at the same level as Bellossom. You really don't have to hit too many ticks to open up a sweep for him (get Rose to ~50%, get Dewgong/Wail to ~30%, don't let him get paralyzed) and he has WAY fewer overall checks/counters in the teambuilder than Bell or other comparable mons like Pupitar.
A+ is fair. You're right that it's for sure better than the other stuff in A. I guess it's mostly just me feeling like teams are going to be prepared for Water-types out the ass in this tier, and I don't believe Huntail adapts as well in that environment as Gong/Wail because of its lack of options. A is still probably underselling it.
Don't know if I agree with a rise on Metang either, I feel he's a little overvalued in general. He's just such a weird middle of the road mon, and the Agility set is very underwhelming from what I've seen. Explosion is always great obv and the fact that he doesn't just cave to stuff like Wail like Mawile does is always nice I suppose, so I think he deserves a solid A rank, but I just feel A+ is overselling it a little.
I think Metang has a lot going on for it even if I keep hearing similar opinions to yours from other people, though. I think calling it a "middle of the road" mon is a compliment when it's able to be threatening as a defensive mon and make use of its defensive prowess as an offensive mon. It's generally more useful in my eyes than a one-trick mon like Mawile, even if Maw can typically squeeze an extra turn or three out of a game compared to Metang. As a defensive mon it's able to maintain a solid offensive presence because of Mash + EQ and its inability to be Toxic'd. You're also bulky enough to be threatening in some capacity to a lot of shit across the board, like Haunter, Hitmon, and Bell. As an offensive mon, I don't value it as much as a sweeper as I do a useful mid to late game presence. Mash is a seriously good STAB, especially at +1, and its useful typing lets it come in on a ton of super common threats, such as Sableye, Roselia, Mawile, most Chimes, Normals, etc. Wailord is your #1 enemy, but in your worst case scenario you can Boom on it for a trade. You have several options for offensive sets too, like CB or three attacks protect, so it's not like you need to go all in on Agility stuff. I think Pokemon that are harder to exploit like Metang are a lot more appealing to me in ADV NU because you're always at the mercy of some lurking offensive presence.
The only other ?? I had looking at your list was Octillery in A-. I'm all up on Octillery believe me, but unless BP chains to him have caught on a bit more or something, or like yellow magic teams, I just don't think he's a "top tier" mon at all. He's a solid anti-meta niche pick no doubt, and one of my favorite leads, but you have to sacrifice just way too much in either bulk or speed to get the most out of him. In any case, him and Pidge are not at all on the same level
I'm not super passionate about oct, so I won't get into him like the others, but I think it really stands out as a cool lead. He shits on most of the other common leads, and being a bulky, strong TWaver is super good in general. I think Para is a lot stronger in this tier than people think, but I don't have any results to back it up. I guess Oct is mostly just a mon I like is all lol
 

Disjunction

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double posting for a spring cleaning update

The thread has an adorable and amazing new banner made by the super talented BlueberryBlanket so thank you for that!
I updated the op to have the PROPER sprites
I'm not updating any higher ranks, but I did follow up with the updates from mid b rank down. I did this for two reasons: 1) I don't think anybody cares about these Pokemon and 2) it was less work for me to do this than to replace all the sprites for the mons that were likely getting axed anyways :psysly:

Gonna come back to this after nupl is over for a content update. See y'all in a few weeks.
 

Disjunction

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alright nupl is winding down, so I figured I'd get the ball rolling on getting this shit updated. Gonna tag all the peeps I can think of that know the tier. Feel free to ignore this if you aren't interested in the VR.

So over the course of NUPL I've just been editing my last post to reflect what I think the VR should look like. Here it is in quotes
SPECIAL SPINK VR
S Rank: Reserved for the top threats in the NU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well with little to no extra support. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

  • Chimecho
  • Haunter
  • Hitmonchan
  • Roselia
  • Wailord
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the NU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively, but still perform less consistently than the average S rank Pokemon. A rank Pokemon have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

Top:
  • Bellossom
  • Flareon
  • Glalie
  • Metang
  • Relicanth
  • Sableye
Mid:
  • Diglett
  • Golbat
  • Huntail
  • Murkrow
  • Pikachu
  • Pupitar
  • Raticate
  • Torkoal
  • Venomoth
Low:
  • Cacturne
  • Dewgong
  • Kecleon
  • Mawile
  • Octillery
  • Tropius
  • Vigoroth
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are slightly above average in the NU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential

Top:
  • Arbok
  • Crawdaunt
  • Pelipper
  • Pidgeot
  • Plusle
  • Sudowoodo
  • Tangela
  • Whiscash
Low:
  • Abra
  • Graveler
  • Kingler
  • Lickitung
  • Piloswine
  • Seadra
  • Shelgon
  • Swalot
  • Togetic
  • Wigglytuff
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being top tier threats. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be as effective as higher ranked Pokemon in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.
  • Dragonair
  • Grovyle
  • Koffing
  • Lairon
  • Minun
  • Magcargo
  • Noctowl
  • Volbeat
  • Wartortle
  • Yanma
Code:
Format changes
Only 1 s rank
Only 2 b ranks
Only 1 c rank

Rises
Venomoth A- --> A
Wailord A+ --> S
Metang/Glalie A --> A+
Torkoal B+ --> A
Diglett A- --> A
Cacturne/Octillery to B+ --> A-
Koffing UR --> C


Drops
Flareon/Sableye S --> A+
Huntail down to S --> A
Pidgeot to A+ --> B+
Vigoroth A --> A-
Plusle/Pelipper A- --> B+
Poliwhirl, Anorith, Castform, Clamperl Dunsparce, Beedrill, Charmeleon, Drowzee, Seviper, Sunflora, Shedinja C --> UR
Dragonair, Lairon, Minun, Volbeat, Wartortle, Yanma, Magcargo B/B- --> C
Almost undoubtedly I made a change and I forgot to document it, so imo just see if you agree with my rankings or not.

Gonna also write a good deal on my reasoning for a lot of stuff. Gonna try and keep it to a minimum since I don't want to write about every mon in the meta. It'll be organized in the hide tags below.

I think that the s ranks currently are on about equal levels of potency in the meta. Builds nowadays are becoming standardized and each of the 5 s ranks I picked are the ones responsible for many of the significant building trends nowadays.

The b ranks were changed because I don't think there is a huge difference in ability between them. Most of these mons are used as counter styling measures or to fill in some strange combination of weaknesses to something. The mons here are good mons, but are usually worse than something else.

The c ranks are fringe viables. Stratifying those ranks is pointless.

Wailord is, imo, the best mon in the tier. It pretty much picked up where Huntail left off as it was falling out of relevance and then did it ten times better. The main set is three attacks boom (hydro/ice beam/hidden power) because there is not a single safe switch in in the tier. It can break down defensive cores, check metang/waters/fires/pupitar, and remove whatever essential thing you need it to with boom.

Huntail isn't a terrible sweeper, but it loses to Best Mon in the Tier Wailord and also the most common spiker in Roselia. It's also outclassed by wailord half of the time anyhow. It's stupid hard to build a successful team with him nowadays when the water slot needs to be bulky most of the time as well. Absolutely not meta defining anymore and doesn't get tech like Sleep Powder like Bell does to cheese around some of its checks.

Mawile is functionally dead weight in matchups against opponents that don't have a normal or flying type, and even then it's not always the best you could have (think mons like trop or bu vig.)

Metang, on the other hand, has the ability to pressure shit far more easily. Mash/Eq are infinitely more threatening than HP Steel + Toxic and that's not even bringing up Explosion, which is an extremely handy panic button for any situation. Its typing is better, it has a wider variety of useful sets, and it's genuinely scary. Even if it gets pressured more by an aggressive HP Ground, it does way more to make up for it in the majority of matchups to make up for it.

Moth/Oct/all the others are all apart of stupid ass BP chains that are aids to play against. I could talk about BP in this tier for a while, but the long and short of it is that there is extremely little counterplay to a well designed BP team. I rose moth/oct because they're the most important components to the chain.

He gets boom and he's ridiculously bulky on the physical side. That bulk comes into play a ton vs threats like Murk or Hitmonchan. Playing around him can be a lot more annoying than playing around Flareon because you're constantly scared of bringing in Wailord or whatever else on him because you might lose it early to a boom. Also being one of the few sunnybeam checks that isn't trapped effectively by diglett. It's a mon that always carries its weight.

These guys fell out of S rank and I don't think it's because they got any worse, but I just do not see them at all on the same level as the top 5. Sableye is fat and checks important stuff, but it just struggles against the strong special attacks in the tier or getting toxic'd into oblivion.. It's always predictable and it always feels more exploitable than other Pokemon.

Flareon is sick, but it struggles with the fact that Wailord is everywhere. Defensive sets are neat, but they're easy to switch into, and offensive sets rarely see much action past turn 10-12. It's also easily trapped by Diglett, which is a less important point, but a notable one regardless.

Both are super strong and should be accounted for in the builder (hence the A+ rank) but I definitely don't think they control the meta like the mons above them.

Gonna talk about both at once here because I think the main reason Bell is so good is because of Dig. Pretty old school Dig + Normal/Flyer cores were never super amazing because, honestly, the tier never has had amazing normal- or flying-type that can take the game away. However, Bellossom is different. You can trap Flareon/Metang/grounded poisons and suddenly be in a much tougher spot because Bell is running around Sleeping your shit and outspeeding everything the next turn. I'm either thinking "well, hope they don't run diglett" or how to fit a Bell check that isn't trapped by dig on my team.

I was pretty big on him at the start of nupl, but as offensive Wailord kept getting spammed, the question always became "Why use Dewgong when Wailord exists?" Wail just kills more shit than gong because it's stronger and has access to boom. Encore gong still acts as a decent cm chime check, but it hasn't really adapted to the current metagame.

I unranked a lot of shit because they were all mons that you would never use on a sensible team even 1 out of 100 times. If it's not explicitly viable I don't think it deserves a spot.

Koffing is cool though. He gets boom, wisp, and a sick typing + ability. Lets him check physical attacks and more specifically chan/pupitar. Not as important, but he's also the best user of Memento which is neat for set up squads. Not an every team pick, but he works as well as the other mons in C.
I could get into more specifics, but I think I covered the most metagame-defining stuff. I'll push forward whatever changes that the majority agrees on in a week or two. Cheers, dudes

edit: gonna respond to posts in a day or two so everyone can get their thoughts out
 
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Bughouse

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disagree with raising venomoth metang glalie and octillery
disagree with dropping sableye minun and yanma
disagree with putting poliwhirl, castform, and drowzee in UR. these are all as usable as some mons in C.

the rest are fine

I would also drop golbat
 

Oglemi

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Actually agree with p. much everything except for dropping Pidgeot that far down. ProTox Pidge sounds very appealing right now and I don't think that saw any usage this nupl; you shit on pretty much everything that's not Maw/Metang and ofc you can always pair that with Diggy. In any case, dropping Pidge below Kecleon is just criminal, and I say that as an avid user of Kec, and especially criminal to drop it that far down below Golbat.

Otherwise I pretty much agree with everything else, or at least don't disagree enough to argue except that purging quite THAT much out of C doesn't seem super warranted (poli, shed, clamperl are all definitely fringe noteworthy)
 

poh

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Disagree with Veno rise, unranking of Poliwhirl (BD + Salac is crazy and good enough niche imo), Castform (anti-weather) and Clamperl (crazy after an agility, might be outclassed by Octillery in that regard).
Agree with everything else.

Might write a proper post once everything got shifted around.
 

Rabia

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disagree with raising venomoth metang glalie and octillery
disagree with dropping sableye minun and yanma
disagree with putting poliwhirl, castform, and drowzee in UR. these are all as usable as some mons in C.

the rest are fine

I would also drop golbat
would be radical if you could say why you disagree with the raises and drops instead of just saying well, that you do; some of them I can figure some reasoning for given I'm not too sure about if I agree with the move or not (Sableye being the main culprit), but the others I'm not sure on.

anyhow, the vr looks pretty accurate; I don't really give a fuck about the shitmons in low b and c, but the a ranks and s look pretty good. like I said I'm not entire sold on dropping Sableye, but I can see the rationale for it so meh.

protox pidg sounds absolutely horrible if I'm being honest, but maybe the drop of mawile in favor of metang could be beneficial? I'm just not sure given pidgeot's already lacking power and the prominence of heal bell courtesy of chime.

I still could see Dewgong in mid A; it's definitely a worse Wailord, although I think the utility of Encore in stopping broken Baton Pass is just really really good lol (see Megazard's NUPL game from this week), and as you said stopping CM Chime. I'm not really worried about it too much, but it's a rise that I could definitely get behind.

part of me wants to see a Pikachu drop to low A because of how awkward it is to build with, but its tour success (albeit with a small sample size) is notable, and it's for sure really potent in practice. idk, I think it's worth considering at the least.
 

Bughouse

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We're mostly talking about like half ranks here... I'm not writing an essay about my subjective opinions. Do I think Venomoth is awful? No. But do I think it's better than Dewgong, Mawile, etc and as good as Huntail, Murkrow, etc? No. Rinse and repeat for all other things I disagree about.

For the 3 things that I'd like to see stay ranked, I'm fine to elaborate on those. As poh already said, BD Poliwhirl can be scary. It was all the rage at one point and it's still a viable option. As poh also already said Castform is a weather counter. To elaborate, it has a unique niche in being anti sun AND anti rain in one slot. This role compression is appreciated for some offenses that want to use a specific core that can't fit in 2 weather checks. Drowzee I kinda like as a niche sun counter. There are better wish mons out there but again for role compression it can work. It just barely walks the tighrope of having passable enough bulk for it to be plausibly used. That said, it's certainly hard to justify in a meta with Chimecho though, which is why I don't care about it as much as the other two, which don't really have direct competition at all.
 

MZ

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Agree with Dewgong being worth mid A, and I'd drop Venomoth and Torkoal. I agree moth is good but not quite worth being so high, and Torkoal I have zero idea why it'd ever be that high I get it has spin but everything else about it is awful. Low B rank confuses me a bit too, Togetic and Wigglytuff don't really need to be the same rank as Lickitung. Also Graveler... idk I've never seen anyone use it but C rank would seem a lot more appropriate.
e: that would explain why all my torkoals aren't spin. it's still just so mediocre, exploding is the only reason I'd ever use it over flareon
 
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Rabia

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Agree with Dewgong being worth mid A, and I'd drop Venomoth and Torkoal. I agree moth is good but not quite worth being so high, and Torkoal I have zero idea why it'd ever be that high I get it has spin but everything else about it is awful. Low B rank confuses me a bit too, Togetic and Wigglytuff don't really need to be the same rank as Lickitung. Also Graveler... idk I've never seen anyone use it but C rank would seem a lot more appropriate.
torkool doesnt have spin this gen :( also ya the lower rank cleanup makes sense; graveler i feel is more of an in theory mon than anything else and lickitung is just better than the other two fat normals
 

Disjunction

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ProTox Pidge sounds very appealing right now and I don't think that saw any usage this nupl; you shit on pretty much everything that's not Maw/Metang and ofc you can always pair that with Diggy. In any case, dropping Pidge below Kecleon is just criminal, and I say that as an avid user of Kec, and especially criminal to drop it that far down below Golbat.
ProTox sounds neat, but if it hasn't seen any usage rn I don't know how I feel about raising it based on a set that has speculative success, especially with Metang being super hot. I think I've been a little more keen on pidge since I dropped him on whatever week, though, and I know a couple other people like him. Murkrow's frailty is a bigger issue than I made it out to be before, I think, and I actually like the sub three attacks set a bit. He's probably ok in A- even if I rank him slightly lower than that.

Most people seem big on dropping Veno back down and getting Poli back on the ranks. I am not super passionate about Veno (even if bp is cancer) and I am really so uninspired about a discussion on Poliwhirl's fringe viability that I'll concede on these

Clamperl (crazy after an agility, might be outclassed by Octillery in that regard).
I don't really want to re-rank Clamperl, though. In terms of being a strong ass Water-type, Wailord has that role covered and then some. Clamp lacks the bulk, the speed, the lefties, and boom. In terms of being a recipient for BP, Oct should be used 999/1000 times. Clamperl's inability to be crit is pretty negligible when you're almost always getting passed into with a Sub, and making your BP team be able to be countered by Roar/Whirlwind is awful.
I would also drop golbat
There are a couple of people who hate on bat and idk why. He offers a ton of unique shit to a team that no other mon does. A sunny beam check + hitmon check + speed. I don't even think it's a mon that is easy to switch into, when you're frequently fearing a Sludge Bomb poison. He's as strong as Pidgeot too, yet I see a lot of people saying Pidge is as good or better when it offers nothing defensively.
I still could see Dewgong in mid A;
Agree with Dewgong being worth mid A,
Sure. A- or A is fine with me, as long as he isn't within a sub rank of Wailord.
As poh also already said Castform is a weather counter. To elaborate, it has a unique niche in being anti sun AND anti rain in one slot. This role compression is appreciated for some offenses that want to use a specific core that can't fit in 2 weather checks.
I think castform was a lot more relevant ~2 years ago when Rain Dance mons were big. Nowadays, Rain mons are far more obscure picks and are often covered by your team's Grass or Water type anyhow. Often you're just going to have Castform be a dedicated sun check, in which case it's just a shitty Fire-type that could be a Flareon or Torkoal. Like, yes, theoretically you could have a 5 mon team that has absolutely nothing for Rain and Sun that could use Castform, but that is a 1 out of 1000 kind of team that Castform fits onto. I don't think that niche is important enough to rank it over.
Torkoal I have zero idea why it'd ever be that high I get it has spin but everything else about it is awful. Low B rank confuses me a bit too, Togetic and Wigglytuff don't really need to be the same rank as Lickitung. Also Graveler... idk I've never seen anyone use it but C rank would seem a lot more appropriate.
e: that would explain why all my torkoals aren't spin. it's still just so mediocre, exploding is the only reason I'd ever use it over flareon
I can drop Graveler. He's not amazing and it's hard to find reason to use him over Reli. Between Toge, Wiggly, and Licki, I would rather just see Wiggly drop than anything else happen. Toge is a much better sunny beam check than the others and it has room for other useful tech, like immediate healing with Softboiled, Baton Pass, T-Wave, etc. Wiggly theoretically is more threatening with access to shit like Fire Blast and Thunder, but it's much less bulky for sure.

Torkoal is a super useful glue mon. Flareon is amazing obviously, but I think Torkoal makes use of its typing better than Flareon in not so obvious ways. For example, Bellossom pretty commonly partners up with Diglett to get rid of Flareon. However, Diglett does like 50 max to Torkoal and makes it a lot harder for Bell to find that opportunity to sweep late game. Torkoal also acts as a much more sensible Metang switch in because it fears EQ a lot less, and it works as a back up check to a lot of scary physical threats like Tropius, Hitmonchan, and the birds. It's also becoming very hard to undervalue explosion imo. Yeah, it doesn't do offensive sets nearly as well as Flareon does, but I think it does defensive sets as good or arguably better. I get that a lot of people haven't really made use of him in NUPL, but I consider Torkoal a super high value mon for most teams. I use this set if you wanted to try him out.

Torkoal @ Leftovers
Ability: White Smoke
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Flamethrower
- Explosion
- Toxic
- Protect

Gonna work on getting this updated, too, since the majority of people have commented and have minimal gripes about the list at large. I'll edit in a list of changes I made from people's suggestions and the stuff we're currently talking about etc etc. Thanks for the talk so far dudes.

edit for the update:
Code:
Did:
Sableye A+ --> S
Dewgong A- --> A
Pikachu A -- > A-
Venomoth A -- > A-
Graveler B- --> C
Minun C --> B-
Wigglytuff B- --> C
Poliwhirl UR --> C

Talking about:
Torkoal
Clamperl
Castform
 
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