Lower Tiers ADV NU Viability Ranking (found new host)

i forgot to do this sadly
This looks great though

Agreed with bughouse flareon is top 4 and should be clear s for me

Torkoal is probably good enough to be a+ but im not as adamant on that

Diglett is probably a sub rank or 2 too high for all the drawbacks it has when you actually build with it, esepcially since everyone and their dad ran anti diglett flare this pl

The birds are all sort of equally as good, i think they should all be ranked equally too

And for all i care get tropius to c that thing has never once failed to underwhelm me no matter what archetype im playing against
 

poh

<?>
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
A couple of thoughts:

Diglett just removing mons like flareon and metang is hella undervalued i feel.
Yes it needs quite the chip to ko bulkier mons like wailord and locking into eq isnt exactly great either, giving free turns to 2 s ranks + grasses.
Trapping is hella broken but the low usage + only fits on specific builds = you can maybe drop it futher but not too low?

Whole of S rank is perfect imo.

It kinda irks me that all of dewgong, reli and huntail are all on the same shelf.
I think dewgong can drop cause the other 2 have slightly different roles compared to wailord, im biased tho lol i think you almost always use wailord over dewgong kek. Dewgong-enthousiasts feel free to lecture me.

Dunsparce could be higher, had a good showing last nusd and can effectively trap haunter too which is always a plus. Spreading paras and generating free turns for mons like wailord and chime is great.

Sudowoodo is a viable mon and gets boom, thats immediate a ranks for me kek
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
A couple of thoughts:

Diglett just removing mons like flareon and metang is hella undervalued i feel.
Yes it needs quite the chip to ko bulkier mons like wailord and locking into eq isnt exactly great either, giving free turns to 2 s ranks + grasses.
Trapping is hella broken but the low usage + only fits on specific builds = you can maybe drop it futher but not too low?

Whole of S rank is perfect imo.

It kinda irks me that all of dewgong, reli and huntail are all on the same shelf.
I think dewgong can drop cause the other 2 have slightly different roles compared to wailord, im biased tho lol i think you almost always use wailord over dewgong kek. Dewgong-enthousiasts feel free to lecture me.

Dunsparce could be higher, had a good showing last nusd and can effectively trap haunter too which is always a plus. Spreading paras and generating free turns for mons like wailord and chime is great.

Sudowoodo is a viable mon and gets boom, thats immediate a ranks for me kek
Dewgong enthusiast here.

1) Wailord is base 60 speed, Dewgong is base 70, which is huge in a tier of base 50-60s. Wailord is most likely slower than Flareon, offensive Dewgong is faster, for example. Gotta go fast.
2) Dewgong is substantially specially bulkier if you want to go that route, but even just on fully offensive, Dewgong's innate better special bulk can come in quite handy. You can take a lot more chip from things like spikes and still live certain things.
252 SpA Haunter Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Wailord: 357-420 (74.2 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Haunter Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dewgong: 200-236 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
3) Dewgong's STAB on Ice Beam comes in clutch vs stuff which might matter on certain builds (though I fully acknowledge that the lack of Hydro and Boom and the lower SpA makes Dewgong generally less immediately threatening):
252+ SpA Dewgong Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bellossom: 229-270 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Wailord Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bellossom: 178-210 (60.9 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4) Encore and Perish Song are also unique niches that Wailord lacks. Dewgong also has some other potential niches that might be underexplored like Thief. Of course Wailord also has its own unique options beyond the standard 3 atk + boom like Roar and Curse.
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP Co-Leader
S Rank

High


:chimecho: Chimecho
:haunter: Haunter
:wailord: Wailord

Low

:flareon: Flareon
:glalie: Glalie
:metang: Metang

A Rank

High


:bellossom: Bellossom
:hitmonchan: Hitmonchan
:pupitar: Pupitar
:raticate: Raticate
:roselia: Roselia
:sableye: Sableye

Mid

:cacturne: Cacturne
:dewgong: Dewgong
:huntail: Huntail
:plusle: Plusle
:relicanth: Relicanth
:torkoal: Torkoal

Low

:golbat: Golbat
:murkrow: Murkrow
:octillery: Octillery
:pelipper: Pelipper
:pikachu: Pikachu
:sudowoodo: Sudowoodo

B Rank

High


:crawdaunt: Crawdaunt
:diglett: Diglett
:kecleon: Kecleon
:pidgeot: Pidgeot
:venomoth: Venomoth
:vigoroth: Vigoroth
:whiscash: Whiscash

Low

:abra: Abra
:arbok: Arbok
:dunsparce: Dunsparce
:kingler: Kingler
:lickitung: Lickitung
:mawile: Mawile
:minun: Minun
:seadra: Seadra
:tangela: Tangela
:tropius: Tropius
:wigglytuff: Wigglytuff

C Rank

:delcatty: Delcatty
:dragonair: Dragonair
:graveler: Graveler
:grovyle: Grovyle
:houndour: Houndour
:lairon: Lairon
:ledian: Ledian
:magcargo: Magcargo
:piloswine: Piloswine
:poliwhirl: Poliwhirl
:shelgon: Shelgon
:swalot: Swalot
:togetic: Togetic
:wartortle: Wartortle
:yanma: Yanma

---

This is the final version I intend to update the OP with.

I went ahead and swapped Sudowoodo's and Diglett's places and dropped Tropius further. Those three points seemed to get the most consensus agreement.

:torkoal::huntail: I do think Torkoal should probably rise back to A+, but I'm not sold on Huntail. I think it does fit really well into the metagame because structures that focus specifically on overwhelming Water-types are really solid, but it still requires a good bit of setup to get it to successfully sweep in my experience and must contend with opposing Bellossom to win the weather war.

Assuming there aren't any strong objections, I'll update the OP tomorrow with this version and likely post about some potential edits that we can consider after NUPL.
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP Co-Leader
OP has been updated, discussion points going forward:

:torkoal::huntail: Torkoal's drop is fairly surprising to many, including me, so I think discussing its placement going forward makes sense. Similarly, Huntail has seen a resurgence lately. Teams dedicated to packing several wallbreakers that force damage onto bulky Water-types are very common now; Silk Scarf Flareon, offensive Water-types, and of course Spikes are all really effective ways to force Huntail's checks into KO range and let it easily sweep late-game.

:dunsparce: Dunsparce saw a good bit of success courtesy of Jisoo in NU Snake II. It's got the broken ability Serene Grace, which makes spreading paralysis with Body Slam really easy, and its coverage is surprisingly deep. Another huge selling point to it, though, is Pursuit. You can EV Dunsparce in such a way for it to fairly reliably take on Haunter and trap it, which is huge. Right now it sits in low B, but a potential rise to high B seems worthwhile.

:diglett::tropius: As stated, I think monitoring both of these Pokemon going forward is worth our time given their immense drop in usage and success across the last several team tournaments that featured ADV NU.

Thank you to everyone that participated in discussion and helped with this update, expect the next update to happen after this year's NUPL
 
Expect a team / set dump and two videos on why glalie and vigoroth should be banned. Please have the brains to ban bright powder / quick claw type items and nerf baton pass, thanks!

VR is ordered, i suggest that we move away from this old fashion looking high low mid stuff and just use +/-.

S
:glalie: Glalie
:chimecho: Chimecho
:haunter: Haunter
:wailord: Wailord
:metang: Metang

S-
:flareon: Flareon
:sableye: Sableye

A+
:bellossom: Bellossom
:hitmonchan: Hitmonchan
:pelipper: Pelipper
:torkoal: Torkoal
:vigoroth: Vigoroth

A
:pikachu: Pikachu
:huntail: Huntail
:raticate: Raticate

A-
:mawile: Mawile
:dewgong: Dewgong
:golbat: Golbat

B+
:octillery: Octillery
:plusle: Plusle
:roselia: Roselia
:whiscash: Whiscash
:kecleon:
Kecleon
:pupitar: Pupitar
:murkrow: Murkrow

B
:diglett: Diglett
:togetic: Togetic
:seadra: Seadra
:relicanth: Relicanth
:arbok: Arbok
:tropius: Tropius
:crawdaunt: Crawdaunt

B-
:lickitung: Lickitung
:omanyte: Omanyte
:minun: Minun
:cacturne: Cacturne
:pidgeot: Pidgeot
:tangela: Tangela
:wigglytuff: Wigglytuff
:sudowoodo: Sudowoodo

C
:piloswine: Piloswine
:magcargo: Magcargo
:swalot: Swalot
:venomoth: Venomoth
:kingler: Kingler

lmk if u think I forgot something. I think we should consider adding a D tier for pokemon like Abra (I will likely edit in my own D tier later).
 
I built and played a lot during ADVPL and NUPL, I have a better understanding of the metagame than I did a few months ago.
First half of my post will be my new updated VR and the second half will be my reasoning for why Pokemon X belongs in Rank Y, I will be comparing my VR with the official VR.
I won't be covering every Pokemon as they are either perfectly ranked in the official VR or I don't care enough to talk about them.
Everything is ordered except for C rank.

S Rank

S Rank

:Glalie:
:Wailord:
:Flareon:
:Metang:
:Torkoal:
:Chimecho:


A Rank

A+ Rank

:Haunter:
:Sableye:

A Rank
:Hitmonchan:
:Raticate:
:Dewgong:
:Octillery:

A- Rank
:Huntail:
:Vigoroth:
:Golbat:
:Cacturne:
:Pupitar:

B Rank

B+ Rank
:Lickitung:
:Roselia:
:Pikachu:
:Plusle:
:Murkrow:
:Crawdaunt:
:Bellossom:

B Rank
:Pelipper:
:Sudowoodo:
:Pidgeot:
:Diglett:
:Minun:
:Mawile:
:Kingler:

B- Rank
:Whiscash:
:Relicanth:
:Arbok:
:Wigglytuff:
:Seadra:

C Rank
:Dunsparce:
:Tangela:
:Venomoth:
:Kecleon:
:Houndour:
:Meditite:
:Abra:
:Tropius:
:Volbeat:
:Seaking:
:Piloswine:
:Magcargo:

Reasonings

S Rank


:Glalie: Glalie is the best mon in the tier for me, its a fantastic spiker than can fit on most offensive & balance teams, it has good coverage to deal with Metang, Haunter, Chimecho and Flareon; It also has great natural bulk and access to explosion. Its very hard to drop Glalie on a team unless you are using Stall.

:Flareon: Flareon might be the only mon in the tier I would consider broken, The Fire Blast/Double Edge/HP Grass/Endure Salac Berry set is very hard to switch into. It only has 2 solid counters being Torkoal and Defensive Wailord. You can also use Pelipper as well but you would have to watch out for HP Electric.
While it has a tough time switching in and has plenty of checks, Once Flareon is able to get in, it can easily grab a KO or two each game.

:Metang: Metang is just an excellent special defensive wall to have on many teams, not only its able to cover Haunter and Plusle but it's able to switch into the Birds and Raticate very nicely as well.

:Torkoal: Torkoal is one of the main reasons why I decided to make a new VR Post in the first place. Its truly one of the best mons in the tier, Its a mixed wall that can wall many mons such as Bellossom, Flareon, Vigoroth, Raticate, Murkrow, Golbat, Metang, Hitmonchan, Haunter and many more.
Not only its bulky but its great at making progression.
Fire Blast is very strong which can OHKO Haunter, you can get out of bad situations with Explosion and you can annoy the shit out of other Fire Types & Sableye with Toxic.
It absolutely deserves being in S rank.

:Chimecho: Chimecho is still a great mon but I wouldn't consider Chimecho the best mon in the tier anymore.

A Rank

:Haunter: I have decided Haunter is no longer S rank, its still a fantastic mon but I think it's too easy to wall with several mons such as Chimecho, Metang, The Fire Types, Sableye and Bulky Glalie which they all have very high usage.

:Hitmonchan: :Raticate: These two mons are still great but I think with how good Sableye is right now, its quite difficult to use these two mons in the current meta.

:Octillery: Octillery is easily in the top 3 best leads rn, Having access to strong Surfs and Thunder Wave makes Octillery an excellent choice for offensive teams to have as a Lead. Octillery also benefits by the fact that using Two Water types on the same team is very strong. It makes an excellent pairing with one of Wailord and Dewgong.

:Vigoroth: Vigoroth should finally move into A- rank, you have to prepare for 3 Attacks Bulk Up and 2 Attacks Bulk Up Slack Off. If you are not careful with Vigoroth, Its pretty easy to lose to it. However it isn't higher on my VR due to the fact it can lose to Sableye, Torkoal and Pelipper.
Vigoroth also wants to carry both Shadow Ball and Earthquake so it suffers from 4MSS.

B Rank

:Lickitung: Lickitung is a very good pick for any Stall team, Its the best cleric in the tier while being a great wish passer.
Not only that but its pretty tanky too as it can take (37%-44%) from Wailord's Hydro Pump. Its also a better wish user than Wigglytuff due to the fact it has access to heal bell which Wiggly does not. I can see Lickitung being in A rank in the future.

:Roselia: Roselia has fallen off for me, She is meant to be a Wailord switch in but gets 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Not only that but she is too frail and not strong at all to be a consistent spiker.
The only mon Roselia truly counters is Plusle but even then Glalie can pull that off well. I would only use Roselia on Stall builds or fat Balance teams.

:Plusle: I don't think Plusle is as good as people make it out to be, People are still spamming grass types and there is still a good amount of switch ins such as Metang, Glalie and Vigoroth. However I do think Plusle's Sub Baton Pass set is good and is the best set. I just find it difficult to find a reason to use it over Haunter which deals with the Grass types more smoothly and it can deal with the Offensive teams better as well.

:Crawdaunt: Pretty underrated, The modest Surf Crunch set is quite strong and being a giant road block vs Chimecho is a great niche to have.

:Bellossom: By far the most overrated mon in the tier, Bellossom is not good rn especially with how amazing Flareon and Torkoal are.
To use Bellossom effectively you are required to lure one of these two mons and get them KOed. Even if you manage to secure the KO on one of two mons, You still have make sure you don't lose to Vigoroth, Golbat, Murkrow and Pidgeot.
I think the special defensive set has potential to be good on bulkier teams but the sunny day set is pretty bad atm.

:Minun: To end on a positive note, I think Minun has a lot of potential to be high B rank in the future.
If you use a bulky set with TBolt, Wish and Protect; Minun is able to handle Haunter, Dewgong, Plusle, Pikachu and Huntail in one slot.
You will be surprised how Bulky and Strong Minun can be.
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP Co-Leader
my take on the meta, not ordering within subrank because I think it's a pointless endeavor:

S Rank

S


:chimecho:
:flareon:
:glalie:
:haunter:
:metang:
:wailord:

A Rank

A+


:bellossom:
:hitmonchan:
:pelipper:
:raticate:
:sableye:
:torkoal:

A

:dewgong:
:huntail:
:octillery:
:pikachu:
:plusle:
:vigoroth:

A-

:cacturne:
:golbat:
:pupitar:
:roselia:
:sudowoodo:
:whiscash:

B Rank

B+


:crawdaunt:
:kecleon:
:mawile:
:murkrow:
:relicanth:
:venomoth:

B

:arbok:
:diglett:
:dunsparce:
:kingler:
:minun:
:pidgeot:

B-

:lickitung:
:seadra:
:tangela:
:tropius:
:wigglytuff:

C Rank

C+


:delcatty:
:grovyle:
:ledian:
:magcargo:
:piloswine:
:swalot:
:togetic:

C

:abra:
:dragonair:
:graveler:
:houndour:
:lairon:
:poliwhirl:

---

Collapsed the S subranks because I don't think the divide between S and S- is large enough to warrant it anymore, also bothered to do C+ and C only to contrast between what I think is maybe, sometimes, perhaps worth using versus what is never worth using.

General things I think are worth noting:

:cacturne::roselia: Dropped these two a fair bit because Glalie is just the best Spiker in the format by a country mile, and the builds they fit on aren't super dominant anymore. Their defensive shortcomings feel much more noted currently, especially Roselia's because its bulk is genuinely bad.

:pelipper: The pelican is good because compared to Huntail, you can more easily set rain for yourself because of defensive utility.

:torkoal: Why it was dropped originally I have no answer for, but I'm glad to see people, so far, being on board to send it back up to A+.

:mawile: It's slightly better now because it checks Glalie pretty well and can use Baton Pass, a certified broken move.

:pikachu: Bulky Grass-types are super uncommon and the meta is much more offensively inclined, so he gets a rise.

:pupitar: I still think Pupitar is dangerous as fuck and people are too quick to think they're safe against it because of a single Reflect Chimecho, but it's pretty clear Pupitar finds a lot fewer setup chances nowadays.

:vigoroth: Very versatile Pokemon, so long as you avoid the Sableye matchup it's likely to give your opponent some headaches.

:relicanth: Defensively very underwhelming, offensively I just don't care for it.

:octillery: Roseybear is right; this Pokemon is a great lead and must be given more respect.
 
Before I make my formal post-NUPL rankings, I want to speak about a specific mon in-depth

Shuckle's viability was theory-crafted on the ADV NU Champions discord for our Pokemon 72 feature. ThatOneBall, SweetPatata, and I came up with spreads, tested, and worked to figure out which teams and strategies Shuckle could facilitate. Jisoo took a liking to Shuckle and we built the Shuckle stall together for ADVPL II.

Shuckle
ShuckleEmerald.gif

It is no secret that Shuckle has historically been seen as a joke Pokemon. He has no power or speed, and his singular game plan is to toxic stall.

However, I believe that Shuckle's typing is thoroughly excellent, and it gives him a unique place among normal resists in the meta game. Shuckle is a rock type/ normal resist that is not weak to ground, and a bug type that is not weak to flying or fire. This allows Shuckle to survive coverage options which otherwise nail most other normal resists (Metang, pseudo-normal resist Torkoal, Mawile, Magcargo, Graveler are all collectively smacked by HP Ground/ Earthquake). Shuckle is also a fire neutral mon that is not vulnerable to HP Grass, which is hugely important in the offensive Flareon matchup. Additionally, Shuckle performs better than most normal resists vs. Hitmonchan because he is neutral to Brick Break and Earthquake. Shuckle can generally stay in vs. Plusle and Haunter and spam encore, which can give a teammate a free pivot on a resisted move or an encored Substitute. Importantly, Shuckle is a normal resist who does not fear Liechi Reversal Raticate or Flail Flareon. I would call Shuckle's defensive profile the most similar to a Spdef Torkoal; but with greater long-term survivability and less vulnerability upon pivoting (doesn't fear ground coverage like Torkoal does).

Encore is absolutely vital to Shuckle's game plan. It forces switches and foils setup, which allows Shuckle to spread Toxic. Encore can also be great in enabling your own team's setup threats; which is why I don't believe Shuckle is exclusive restricted to stall teams (though his slow pace allows him to fit on stall more easily). Shuckle can work as glue to hold setup spam together.

Shuckle isn't perfect. He is exploited by Metang; who doesn't fear any of his moves and can pivot into him forever. However, a smart builder can use this to their advantage. Depending on the team style, pair Shuckle with a Diglett, Flareon, or 3 attacks Wailord (offense) or a Torkoal or defensive Wailord (stall). Shuckle can also be taken advantage of by Substitute Flareon variants, assuming Shuckle doesn't Encore them into Substitute or an attack. The worst case scenario is a Substitute and Baton Pass Flareon who has not been encored.

This is the best spread that I came to. +Spdef is just more useful in handling offensive Flareon and Bellossom. Defensive nature isn't necessary to destroy the offensive normal types.
Some useful calcs:
252+ SpA Bellossom Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 64+ SpD Shuckle: 71-84 (29 - 34.4%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Flareon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 64+ SpD Shuckle: 73-87 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Raticate Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192 Def Shuckle: 103-122 (42.2 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Raticate Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 192 Def Shuckle: 46-55 (18.8 - 22.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

The Wrap Assassin (Shuckle) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Wrap
- Encore
- Rest


In the instance of a team that especially fears physical threats, going +defense nature is an option with marginal benefits. This +defense spread was the initial spread that TheOneBall, SweetPatata, and I came to. I've come to like +spdef better.

ThatOneBall (Shuckle) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpD
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Wrap
- Encore
- Rest


There is also a Rollout set which drops Wrap. Rollout should only be used at the very end of the game to cleanup threats who could otherwise sit in front of Shuckle forever I.e. Haunter, Golbat (though CB can be PP stalled), etc. I give credit mostly to Patata and OneBall for this set. Sometimes you find yourself using Wrap infrequently, so Rollout can be a more useful option.

Rock Titan (Shuckle) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Atk / 72 Def / 64 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Encore
- Rollout
- Rest


Jisoo already shared the stall team in the NUPL X dump, but I figure I might as well post it here as well:
https://pokepast.es/c4795515efba1683

Shuckle.gif

Replays of Jisoo succeeding with Shuckle:
ADVPL II Week 2 (Jisoo vs. Void) - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3nu-618709
NUPL X Week 5 (Jisoo vs. Rabia) - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3nu-631655

Crazy casual game where Shuckle staves off reversal rat, CB Hitmonchan, CB Murkrow and a Sunny Day Belle for a long time - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1625995364-v5wa07h7r9xgzuzvixk8pklap0rg7kepw

Thanks to Jisoo for winning with Shuckle in tour.

Jisoo and Shuckle: o_O <3
ShuckleGIF.gif
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top