ADV Baton Pass Test
It's time to test Baton Pass in ADV. Voting requirements can be obtained via tournament experience or ladder rankings. Tournament experience will resemble requirements from other recent tests by the Old Gen Council. In addition, we will offer a laddering opportunity because ADV has a very active and competitive ladder.
For this Baton Pass test, the ADV council has identified two separate issues. On one hand, there is full baton pass, which generally consists of five setup Pokemon and one end game receiver. On the other, there is Drum Pass, which features Smeargle using Belly Drum and a Salac Berry to pass +6 Atk +1 Spe to an appropriate receiver. We have discussed these issues internally and concluded that there is no good single solution to both these issues. Therefore, we will treat them separately for this upcoming test.
I. Simple bans are insufficient for addressing Baton Pass in ADV OU.
Smogon tiering policy favors simple bans over complex bans. When proposing a complex ban, tiering leaders must show that a simple ban would be insufficient for the problem. Here, we believe simple bans are insufficient for Baton Pass in ADV OU because they are overinclusive, meaning they would ban some legitimate strategies in the metagame by extension.
A simple ban involves banning a single Pokemon, Ability, or Move. We see two possibilities for simple bans. One is banning the move Baton Pass. The other is banning Smeargle.
Banning Baton Pass is very overinclusive. Baton Pass is an integral move in the ADV OU metagame that fits on many different legitimate archetypes. Many lead Zapdos run dry Baton Pass sets, similar to U-turn in later generations. Celebi can dry pass or pass Leech Seed. CM Celebi, SD Celebi, and Agility Zapdos have been somewhat-niche strategies for as long as ADV OU has existed. These strategies have been featured in many notable teams throughout ADV's history, and we feel like they are worth preserving for the future. Banning Baton Pass is not an option.
Banning Smeargle is somewhat overinclusive. Smeargle Spike offense is a relatively rare but recognized ADV OU team archetype. In our view, preserving this strategy is worthwhile for the tier considering its history and official tournament presence. At least four recent official tournament games have showcased this strategy, and they can be viewed below. For these reasons, we believe a simple ban on Smeargle is undesirable for addressing Baton Pass as a strategy in ADV OU.
1. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-450291 (Ojama v. ABR ; Smogon Classic V)
2. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-421490 (Dekzeh v. thelinearcurve ; SPL X)
3. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-339414 (Ojama v. Danilo ; SPL IX)
4. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-355636 (thelinearcurve v. k3nan ; SPL IX)
II. Full Pass
Regarding full baton pass, voters will have the option to vote between:
1. Limit teams to a maximum of three baton pass users.
2. Change nothing.
Ban requirement: 60%+ in favor of limiting teams to maximum of three baton pass users.
The ADV Council has discussed a variety of potential solutions, and we believe this is the best overall option. When pursuing a complex ban, our goal is to balance 1) effectiveness of the solution, 2) simplicity or elegance of the rules, and 3) preservation of viable and healthy strategies in the metagame. To effectiveness, limiting teams to only three baton pass users will almost certainly gut full baton pass. It seems infeasible to sustain a pure pass chain resembling Full Pass with only three Baton Pass users. To simplicity, the rule relatively simple and easy to understand for new players and experienced players alike. Three passers also has some degree of elegance compared to limiting to two or four passers, though that is a very minor consideration. To preserving other strategies, we don't believe any currently viable metagame strategies will be damaged by this ban. One example of a strategy we would want to protect is the Zapdos+Celebi CM Pass species of teams. These teams are healthy for the metagame, and sometimes they come with up to three Baton Pass users.
The most important consideration here is effectiveness. We do not want to revisit Baton Pass ever again in ADV OU. The ADV Council feels comfortable that three baton passers cannot sustain an uncompetitive strategy resembling full pass. However, this statement comes with an unavoidable level of uncertainty. Because no restriction exists for the number of Baton Pass users, teams deliberately trying to abuse three Baton Pass users have not been explored. In light of this, we are open to arguments for limiting teams to two Baton Pass users instead.
III. Belly Pass
Regarding Belly Pass, voters will have the option to vote between:
1. Ban Baton Pass on Smeargle.
2. Do not ban Baton Pass on Smeargle.
Ban requirement: 60%+ in favor of banning Baton Pass on Smeargle.
Applying the same framework above, we believe this is the best solution for the metagame. To effectiveness, Belly Pass is impossible without Baton Pass Smeargle. To simplicity, this rule is relatively easy to apply and understand. New players may not understand the exact motivation for the rule on first glance, but the rule clearly communicates that there is some uncompetitive strategy with Smeargle plus Baton Pass. Furthermore, banning Baton Pass on Smeargle would allow us to drop the BP + Ingrain complex ban thus simplifying our ruleset. To preservation of viable stratgies, the council does not believe we will lose much of value from unexplored CM/SD/DD + Baton Pass Smeargle sets. These sets have been ineffective on the ladder, and they've never seen official tournament play. Therefore we predict any collateral damage to be zero or extremely minimal.
We considered "Ban Belly Drum on Smeargle" instead, but ultimately we conclude that this is more complex. A new player can infer the motivation for "Ban Baton Pass on Smeargle" more easily. "Ban Baton Pass on Smeargle" also allows us to simplify our ruleset by eliminating a different tier rule, which is a very compelling factor.
IV. Qualifications
The tournament-based qualifications are as follows. For SPL, voters must have played at least six ADV games OR won at least three games. For WCoP, voters must have played at least four ADV games OR won at least three games. For ADV Cup, we will take the top eight. Under these requirements, the following people qualify.
SPL: gilbert arenas, thelinearcurve, triangles, eden's embrace, Golden Sun, zf, Alexander, Jirachee, dekzeh, UD
WCoP: Golden Sun, gilbert arenas, cyberodin, undisputed, elodin, melle2402
ADV Cup: Ojama, Lavos, Fakes, McMeghan, elodin, Malekith, meridian, Tamahome
Unique voters (20): glibert arenas, thelinearcurve, triangles, eden's embrace, Golden Sun, zf, Alexander, Jirachee, dekzeh, UD, cyberodin, undisputed, melle2402, ojama, Lavos, Fakes, McMeghan, Malekith, meridian, Tamahome
To qualify via the ladder, players must reach 1500+ ELO and 85% GXE simultaneously. No game cap. The ladder window will last for two weeks 7/28 - 8/11. Submit requirements to me or any council member at any time you fulfill them.
V. Conclusion
Please post questions, thoughts, concerns, or praise. The ADV Council will read this thread and respond thoughtfully to anyone who is genuinely involved in the ADV community or interested in the future of the ADV metagame. Thank you!
It's time to test Baton Pass in ADV. Voting requirements can be obtained via tournament experience or ladder rankings. Tournament experience will resemble requirements from other recent tests by the Old Gen Council. In addition, we will offer a laddering opportunity because ADV has a very active and competitive ladder.
For this Baton Pass test, the ADV council has identified two separate issues. On one hand, there is full baton pass, which generally consists of five setup Pokemon and one end game receiver. On the other, there is Drum Pass, which features Smeargle using Belly Drum and a Salac Berry to pass +6 Atk +1 Spe to an appropriate receiver. We have discussed these issues internally and concluded that there is no good single solution to both these issues. Therefore, we will treat them separately for this upcoming test.
I. Simple bans are insufficient for addressing Baton Pass in ADV OU.
Smogon tiering policy favors simple bans over complex bans. When proposing a complex ban, tiering leaders must show that a simple ban would be insufficient for the problem. Here, we believe simple bans are insufficient for Baton Pass in ADV OU because they are overinclusive, meaning they would ban some legitimate strategies in the metagame by extension.
A simple ban involves banning a single Pokemon, Ability, or Move. We see two possibilities for simple bans. One is banning the move Baton Pass. The other is banning Smeargle.
Banning Baton Pass is very overinclusive. Baton Pass is an integral move in the ADV OU metagame that fits on many different legitimate archetypes. Many lead Zapdos run dry Baton Pass sets, similar to U-turn in later generations. Celebi can dry pass or pass Leech Seed. CM Celebi, SD Celebi, and Agility Zapdos have been somewhat-niche strategies for as long as ADV OU has existed. These strategies have been featured in many notable teams throughout ADV's history, and we feel like they are worth preserving for the future. Banning Baton Pass is not an option.
Banning Smeargle is somewhat overinclusive. Smeargle Spike offense is a relatively rare but recognized ADV OU team archetype. In our view, preserving this strategy is worthwhile for the tier considering its history and official tournament presence. At least four recent official tournament games have showcased this strategy, and they can be viewed below. For these reasons, we believe a simple ban on Smeargle is undesirable for addressing Baton Pass as a strategy in ADV OU.
1. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-450291 (Ojama v. ABR ; Smogon Classic V)
2. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-421490 (Dekzeh v. thelinearcurve ; SPL X)
3. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-339414 (Ojama v. Danilo ; SPL IX)
4. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-355636 (thelinearcurve v. k3nan ; SPL IX)
II. Full Pass
Regarding full baton pass, voters will have the option to vote between:
1. Limit teams to a maximum of three baton pass users.
2. Change nothing.
Ban requirement: 60%+ in favor of limiting teams to maximum of three baton pass users.
The ADV Council has discussed a variety of potential solutions, and we believe this is the best overall option. When pursuing a complex ban, our goal is to balance 1) effectiveness of the solution, 2) simplicity or elegance of the rules, and 3) preservation of viable and healthy strategies in the metagame. To effectiveness, limiting teams to only three baton pass users will almost certainly gut full baton pass. It seems infeasible to sustain a pure pass chain resembling Full Pass with only three Baton Pass users. To simplicity, the rule relatively simple and easy to understand for new players and experienced players alike. Three passers also has some degree of elegance compared to limiting to two or four passers, though that is a very minor consideration. To preserving other strategies, we don't believe any currently viable metagame strategies will be damaged by this ban. One example of a strategy we would want to protect is the Zapdos+Celebi CM Pass species of teams. These teams are healthy for the metagame, and sometimes they come with up to three Baton Pass users.
The most important consideration here is effectiveness. We do not want to revisit Baton Pass ever again in ADV OU. The ADV Council feels comfortable that three baton passers cannot sustain an uncompetitive strategy resembling full pass. However, this statement comes with an unavoidable level of uncertainty. Because no restriction exists for the number of Baton Pass users, teams deliberately trying to abuse three Baton Pass users have not been explored. In light of this, we are open to arguments for limiting teams to two Baton Pass users instead.
III. Belly Pass
Regarding Belly Pass, voters will have the option to vote between:
1. Ban Baton Pass on Smeargle.
2. Do not ban Baton Pass on Smeargle.
Ban requirement: 60%+ in favor of banning Baton Pass on Smeargle.
Applying the same framework above, we believe this is the best solution for the metagame. To effectiveness, Belly Pass is impossible without Baton Pass Smeargle. To simplicity, this rule is relatively easy to apply and understand. New players may not understand the exact motivation for the rule on first glance, but the rule clearly communicates that there is some uncompetitive strategy with Smeargle plus Baton Pass. Furthermore, banning Baton Pass on Smeargle would allow us to drop the BP + Ingrain complex ban thus simplifying our ruleset. To preservation of viable stratgies, the council does not believe we will lose much of value from unexplored CM/SD/DD + Baton Pass Smeargle sets. These sets have been ineffective on the ladder, and they've never seen official tournament play. Therefore we predict any collateral damage to be zero or extremely minimal.
We considered "Ban Belly Drum on Smeargle" instead, but ultimately we conclude that this is more complex. A new player can infer the motivation for "Ban Baton Pass on Smeargle" more easily. "Ban Baton Pass on Smeargle" also allows us to simplify our ruleset by eliminating a different tier rule, which is a very compelling factor.
IV. Qualifications
The tournament-based qualifications are as follows. For SPL, voters must have played at least six ADV games OR won at least three games. For WCoP, voters must have played at least four ADV games OR won at least three games. For ADV Cup, we will take the top eight. Under these requirements, the following people qualify.
SPL: gilbert arenas, thelinearcurve, triangles, eden's embrace, Golden Sun, zf, Alexander, Jirachee, dekzeh, UD
WCoP: Golden Sun, gilbert arenas, cyberodin, undisputed, elodin, melle2402
ADV Cup: Ojama, Lavos, Fakes, McMeghan, elodin, Malekith, meridian, Tamahome
Unique voters (20): glibert arenas, thelinearcurve, triangles, eden's embrace, Golden Sun, zf, Alexander, Jirachee, dekzeh, UD, cyberodin, undisputed, melle2402, ojama, Lavos, Fakes, McMeghan, Malekith, meridian, Tamahome
To qualify via the ladder, players must reach 1500+ ELO and 85% GXE simultaneously. No game cap. The ladder window will last for two weeks 7/28 - 8/11. Submit requirements to me or any council member at any time you fulfill them.
V. Conclusion
Please post questions, thoughts, concerns, or praise. The ADV Council will read this thread and respond thoughtfully to anyone who is genuinely involved in the ADV community or interested in the future of the ADV metagame. Thank you!
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