OU ADV OU Viability Ranking

He posted a vote, which is doing anything but awarding himself the final word. He also linked you a proper place to discuss the topic, essentially encouraging you to continue. Stop trying to derail one of the most informative threads on the site and follow simple rules.
you should have posted this in the other thread, the last word is mine - porticuno


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there should probably be a fresh thread opened to discuss sleep in ou, instead of one from nearly a year ago, that hasn't been active in forever.

keeping that aside, stop acting like a spoiled child: it's incredibly grating and achieves nothing, there are avenues viz-a-viz opening productive discussion which are available to you, you're not being "silenced by the oppressive moderators".

you're not presenting anything worth silencing either: a lot of people think sleep is contentious at the very least. if you care about the topic, make a thread? no one's stopping you? you're ironically working against the issue by looking ridiculous rambling about it in this thread, without actually gathering data or analyzing the topic in anyway, which you are very much free to do. I'm sure a lot of people would love to post in a thread about the ban worthiness of sleep whether they support a ban or not.

that poll was an impromptu one done in is a discord server to get a feel for how the issue is perceived, it's not "the final word" on anything, because there was no dialogue had in the first place; and if there was a final decision made it would most definitely not be a straw poll of all things.
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i made a serious, sincere post born out of the desire to improve a game i play a lot that queried the lack of response to a significant portion of the playerbase’s concerns about the (un)competitiveness of sleep mechanics, culminating in three questions directed at those in charge of the tier. in response to the questions posed, one of the aforementioned tier leaders posted a meme, undercutting the seriousness of my initial post, and that, i suspect, was ultimately intended as a mocking demonstration of my supposed powerlessness in the situation. before accusing me of lowering the quality of the thread through rambling and irrelevant posting, eden, so heartfelt is your dedication to safeguarding the quality of the thread, you saw fit to like react that very same meme, that is, that one that lowered the tone and denigrated a genuine attempt at discussion. regarding the personal ‘child’ stuff all i’ll say is this, you appear to be thoroughly at home in the adv tours community, and, as a person, i’m real proud to stand apart from you guys.


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The facts are these,

1. The issue of banning/keeping sleep should be discussed in a separate thread.
2. Disputes about the decision-making process with respect to tiering in ADV OU, which include feedback with the playerbase, should be discussed in a thread separate from this, and separate from the thread about banning/keeping sleep.
3. In the interest of those who visit this thread for the express purpose of understanding and discussing viability of Pokemon in ADV OU, posts unrelated to said purpose will be deleted and possibly lead to an infraction.
in response to the questions posed, one of the aforementioned tier leaders posted a meme, undercutting the seriousness of my initial post, and that, i suspect, was ultimately intended as a mocking demonstration of my supposed powerlessness in the situation.
I swear it was followed up by a genuine, good-faith answer. I think all of the responses here were until you started taking them as personal attacks. I'm seeing a lot of self-victimization here.

If you're as curious as you seem to be, you should further the old thread on sleep or create a new one on tiering logistics.
I feel like Nidoqueen should be ranked... somewhere. After stumbling across the thread about her, I figured I'd try Nido out a bit, and she definitely has some tangible niche on certain builds---from my point of view, that niche being most valuable on Forry builds.

BlissPert Forry teams end up with 4 things that are either complete fighter bait (since suit Tar takes up a slot) or incapable of 1v1ing fighters, meaning consistent (defensive) responses to Loom, Heracross, Medicham, etc would go miles in preventing you from getting bled everytime the fighter gets an in via Zap bping on your Blissey or a simple hard-switch in on softs or relatively unthreatening stosses. Having a sturdy defensive answer is pretty day-and-night from how these interactions play out when using Gengar as the closest thing you have to a fighting answer---Loom teams often slot in suit Tar, the Gengar vs Hera 1v1 isn't a clear-cut win for Gar at all, Medicham can just shadow ball your ass, and offensive Yama can sit in front of your weak, neutral-hitting, un-stab special attacks without fear of wisp and rock slide you. Zapdos and Molt are sort of similar in their inconsistency vs fighters, as threatening outright OHKOs against them is difficult for the former while the latter is one stray rock slide away from death at all times.

In comparison to Mence (defensive wishtect or offensive sets), Nido's main point of difference is the ability to trade favorably against HP grass electrics, opening up midgrounds against stuff like Zapdos---which otherwise is obnoxiously consistent at commanding momentum (this is also a point of contrast between the other defensive fighter answers mentioned earlier). Preventing your opponent from constantly pressuring you with the possibility of doubles/BPs into insert-strong-phys-wallbreaker-here on your Blissey switches is a neat luxury further complemented by the fact that Swampert acts as redundancy against electrics running HP ice---meaning even when your Blissey gets beat up Dug'd or overwhelmed or whatever the case may be, you're not instantly SOL. Additionally, Nido isn't as bothered by suit Tar compared to defensive Mence and to an extent CB Mence, which helps a lot vs Loom. Nidoqueen is susceptible to spikes, unlike Mence, but you're presumably running her along Forry anyway---and unlike Mence, Nidoqueen is more status-resistant (immune to t-wave and toxic) and is also sand immune, so that's certainly something worth considering.

So yeah, in the event that you don't face any fighters, you still have a backup switchin to HP grass elecs, another rock resist, and something capable of trading favorably with like... MixMence, annoying ProTox Flygons, HP ice elecs, and a handful of other things.

This is the specific set I was trying out:

Nidoqueen (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Atk / 104 Def / 20 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Protect

EVs are to both live jolly Dug EQ at full 100% of the time while always ohkoing 8 HP Dug with EQ after one layer of spikes damage. The rest should be pretty self explanatory---it's sand immune and has stab EQ + flame for steels/poisons (minus Gar, but that's getting trapped by Tar hopefully), so ProTox seems like the logical way to go. Flamethrower kinda bounces off of Skarm, so I feel like taunt might have some potential (didn't test it, though).

Not the type to save ladder replays, but I might add some later. I think her merits are pretty self-evident, though.
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-664119081 - my team here's just a take on the classic yama sand dol style, was experimenting with a no spikes variant

Nidoqueen @
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 76 SpA / 40 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Thief

Was messing around with this a bit:
  • 252 HP/140 def+ for cb gross mmash
  • naturally 3hko'd by mixmence dclaw
Thief is pretty great on the kind of team I was using it on: the niche you described is exactly why I used it, having the midground vs zap is fantastic

the sp.a kos 0/0- mixmence with sand(you can do this with less, but I wanted to improve the roll vs potential hasty mixmence)

fits on teams that aim to chip skarm and reset with dol, has a niche on that style for sure

using it on forre gar pert tar bliss x teams isn’t great, the good fillers on that kind of team always tend towards offensive mons like molt Mence zap aerodug etc for a reason, can’t afford extra blobby mons on that style;

and I’m not dropping gar to accommodate running nidoqueen, if I’m dropping gar it has to be for something adding offensive tempo to that style
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I think we're all forgetting Omastar. McMeghan made a great post detailing its viability on Swift Swim teams a long time ago, and I think it still deserves a place as an F Rank mon due to its niche on Rain teams that Ludicolo and Kingdra do not have, being a resist to Aerodactyl's Double-Edge/Lax's Body Slam and having the ability to set up Spikes. I highly recommend reading Sadlysius's Rain Guide as it gives you an idea of what Rain teams are, and Omastar's niche. I also recommend reading this RMT if you want to see a viable Rain team. It's also of note that this mon came in at #61 in Vapicuno's Aggregate Rankings, so it isn't that much of an obscure pick. Below are the calcs from the McMeghan thread if you're too lazy to read it.
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 144/164 Snorlax in Rain: 258-304 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252/0 Zapdos in Rain: 355-418 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252/0 Metagross in Rain: 355-418 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252/252+ Skarmory in Rain: 293-345 (87.7 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252/0 Swampert in Rain: 355-418 (87.8 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0/0 Jirachi in Rain: 324-382 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0/0 Raikou in Rain: 324-382 (100.6 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0/0 Porygon2 in Rain: 340-400 (90.9 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
I see these calcs and I see the possibility of the 2HKOs/OHKOs being a lot easier with a layer of Spikes. Unfortunately, the presence of HP Grass and Thunderbolt is so prominent that it's hard for Omastar to set up Spikes and then steamroll with Hydro Pump in the same game. That's why I suggest running Protect and/or scouting for the moves before getting Omastar in. You can also run Rain Dance + 2 or 3 attacks (Pump/Beam & HP Electric) and use a different mon as a Spiker.
Omastar @ Mystic Water / Lum Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 48 Def / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Protect / Hidden Power [Electric] / Spikes
Mystic Water is for the added damage which can net some important OHKOs or 2HKO in the case of Lax. Lum Berry is in case you run into something like Tboltless Mie with TWave. 208 Speed EVs are so you can outspeed everything in Rain. Max SpA and Modest Nature of course. Protect is for scouting HP Grass. HP Electric is for the OHKO on Gyarados. Spikes is in case you want to play risky and get rid of HP Grass/Tbolters by luring them in first.
Omastar @ Mystic Water
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 48 Def / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Snorlax @ Leftovers / Rawst Berry
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Self-Destruct / Focus Punch / Shadow Ball


Ludicolo @ Lum Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 72 SpD / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Ice Beam

Kingdra @ Lum Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 104 SpD / 152 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]


Dugtrio @ Salac Berry
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Endure
- Earthquake
- Beat Up
- Hidden Power [Bug]

Jolteon @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Baton Pass
- Toxic
You can either run standard Snorlax or Lax with Rawst Berry because with Rain, it doesn't need the Leftovers recovery and can take out Gengar with the surprise Rawst + Shadow Ball. Rawst > Lum because you don't want to waste it on a Paralysis when Lax is already slower than everything (unless you just hate Para). Ludicolo is to carry on the offensive pressure once Omastar is out of the picture; carrying Dra may likely to be too similar to Oma, so Ludicolo should be preferred. See my QC draft Pastebin on Ludicolo for more details. Endure Salac Dugtrio is to trap and kill Jolteon. You're left with dealing with Zapdos and luring in Electrics with Oma. The best I could come up with was standard Jolt. Oma lures in Zapdos and you hard switch to Jolt.
Ludicolo @ Lum Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 72 SpD / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Ice Beam

Omastar @ Mystic Water
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 48 Def / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Snorlax @ Rawst Berry
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Shadow Ball

Dugtrio @ Salac Berry
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Endure
- Earthquake
- Beat Up
- Hidden Power [Bug]

Jolteon @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Baton Pass
- Toxic

Heracross @ Salac Berry
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Reversal
Most of this is covered in the sample core. Only addition is Heracross, which is good in Rain because of no Sand chip + SalacSwarmReversal. I have a RMT linked in my signature that goes over a similar team.
So yeah, TLDR; Rain is underused and is perfectly viable, and Omastar has a niche that Kingdra and Ludicolo do not fulfill.
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I'm agree including Omastar on the low bottom list as is one of the swift swimmers available for RD team which are pretty underrated and hasn't been used recently but definitely are viable and have their own niche.

I've checked the actual list on the OP and comparing it to the UUBL list I notice a few remarkable absences: Crobat and Espeon. I don't know what you guys think about them, but IMO they both have some cool techs. Crobat needs Mag support, its CB set is pretty straightforward and although its raw power isn't impressive the fact that it's immune to spikes and X4 resistant to fight/bug makes him a great check for Heracross/Breloom, not to mention its top speed tier. On the other hand Espeon has the ability to lure Tyranitar and Skarmory/Blissey in some scenarios and drypass to your own trapper which is great and while its defensive prowess isn't impressive offensively it's a force to be reckoned with 130/110 base stats (same as Gengar but with a very limited movepool and STAB 90 base power move in the form of psychic).
Band slaking could destroy something for one turn and then switch out, occasionally that could be good but set-up mons like DD dance ttaR and CM Cune could capitalise on it. But I feel that its wall breaking ability is under appreciated and really should move up. It could bust huge holes in teams for set-up mons at the back to clean up. I really enjoy using it along with the above mentioned set up Mons and with skarmony three layer spikes it picks up OHKOs like it is nothing. Gengar could be used for the spin block and essential Boom too. Sure it might be a very lacklustre with no constant offensive pressure to speak of but with the support mentioned earlier it could function. D tier for slaking seems fair to me
Band slaking could destroy something for one turn and then switch out, occasionally that could be good but set-up mons like DD dance ttaR and CM Cune could capitalise on it. But I feel that its wall breaking ability is under appreciated and really should move up. It could bust huge holes in teams for set-up mons at the back to clean up. I really enjoy using it along with the above mentioned set up Mons and with skarmony three layer spikes it picks up OHKOs like it is nothing. Gengar could be used for the spin block and essential Boom too. Sure it might be a very lacklustre with no constant offensive pressure to speak of but with the support mentioned earlier it could function. D tier for slaking seems fair to me
By the way, slaking also pairs well with mag as Skarmory is its biggest wall


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Hello everyone. I usually wait until the Callous Invitational is over to launch the bi-annual VR update, but considering this edition of the tournament has started at a later date than usual, and with SPL approaching fast, I thought now was the appropriate time to get things into gears! You know the drill by now but I will repeat it just in case...

I will just quote myself from the previous update regarding how this thing works:
I want every "relevant" ADV players to PM me their own ranking. I will then make an average of everyone's ranking to reach the final result (similary to the SPL pre-season power rankings). I plan to disclose the full results and show who voted what exactly.

I want you guys to give this post a quick read, and if you care about this thing, to send me YOUR own viability ranking by PM. Also, if you know anyone you'd consider as qualified enough to send their take on the matter, let them know and tell them to PM me with their ranking too.

The only thing I'll do is probably decide myself whose vote gets to be taken into account for the averaged result at the end. Feel free to ask me in PM if you'd make the cut so you dont waste time sending a ranking for no reason.
In the meantime, feel free to influence everyone's vote by pushing for or against various Pokemons.

I encourage everyone to get discussion going/post their rankings, I will post mine at least.

Please feel free to send me your rankings, especially if you're an active ADVer. Share this with your friends who play the tier. The more the better.
HLing a bunch of people:
ABR M Dragon Mana Cowboy Dan johnnyg2 mikmer umbry Star Triangles dice Hclat Gilbert arenas undisputed SoulWind Golden Sun Fear Tamahome Altina BKC UD z0mOG Endill Teclis CyberOdin✝ Astamatitos bruno watermess Gacu Kerts Sadlysius Ibidemsa Dizno

Gilbert arenas

What's up pencil necks
is a Tiering Contributor
——— Dugtrio between these two tiers imo
——— (lax)
——— (zard)

Once you get past hera or even mag section everything is just bad.
This is what the tier looks like in 2021 peeps.
Ban sleep.
Tar/Jira/Zap/Gross can be on literally every team and be effective in any match up.
This is the first time in my time playing ADV that people have been well prepared for dugtrio.
Skarm is actually not that good and most games it's either battling a spinner or trying it's best not to get haxed. Best way to play skarm is spikes offense or with Wish users.
On Setup: I think setup is inherently broken in ADV OU, the weapons are just not there to counter it as they are in other generations.
On Sleep: We have seen many people forego alternative moves on Milo, Bliss, and Gar for sleep moves because the opportunity cost of essentially killing a mon is worth it on bulkier pokes (Milo, Bliss) and Pokemon that force a lot of switches (Gar). Sleep as an alternative move is something you can't prepare for well, and this doesn't even touch on the designated sleepers. Breloom itself creates a lot of odd situations and is super easy to get in on an offensive team. Jynx is a fucking nightmare for some teams and absolutely useless in other matchups, IMO the biggest fish in ADV atm. The rest of the sleepers would never be viable without access to sleep moves There are just too many other factors that come into play when somebody clicks a sleep move, many of which are out of everyone's control. I wish it were as easy as just playing a correct line vs sleep. the problem w this is sleep often comes in the early game, so your gameplan is still being developed and you may not know the rest of your opps team and the roles that each of your team members play in the gameplan, and most of the time, you find yourself guessing what will and won't work. Sleep turns are nonsense, not to mention sleeptalk doesn't really have a place in the metagame. Sleep sacs are dumb and add another layer of Randomness to a game. I've seen countless games come down to sleep turns, and people trying to play around sleep by guessing. I think we can all agree that in a vaccum we should strive to remove RNG as much as we can from this game, removing sleep would be a step in the right direction. Not to mention sleep also inhibits another broken playstyle in setup.
On Special attackers: There really is no such thing as a special wall in ADV. Every specially based team is more than well equipped to handle their 'counted', not to mention mons like wish Jira and Bliss sap momentum a lot and get shit on by some setup special attackers. Personally, I think this is healthy. We have seen a rise of the counter special attackers by just pivoting and hoping you can outplay on teams wout bliss, which are on the rise. I like the look of the more offensive metagame that we have RN. Offensive waters are super fucking good when they hit hydro, like jesus, they just delete everything on some teams.
Aero is soooo good.
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-Jirachi addiction progresses faster and stronger than heroin.
-4th rank for offensive Celebi, defensive leech seed variant is C tier.
-Probably strongest Salamence year so far.
-Second highest rank for Steelix after my man UD.
-Marowak works well not only as gimmick bp recipient.
-Machamp is so much better than Medicham.
-Jynx is just a glorified coin flip.
-In meta full of Breloom, Nidoqueen deserves more testing.
-Rest talk cm Slowbro is potentially worth more testing as it fits well on cm spam teams with offensive roar Suicune.
-Meme tier is below usable level.
-Jumpluff without spikes takes the prize for the worst possible team concept in ADV.
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Some thoughts from someone making a VR for the first time:
  • Ordered, although everything in the same rank (especially A/A+) feels really close in viability.
  • Aero is incredible, a threat in every single game unless the opponent has spikes control with Steelix or something. Good enough to join the rest of the A tiers imo.
  • DD Mence running spdef makes it very threatening.
  • Spikes are really good, so I rate things that abuse spikes, spinners, and mag highly.
  • Flygon is good, just requires a lot of support and isn't very versatile (although pinch berry sets might be underrated)
  • Raikou is a fantastic lead, big threat with double electric or anything that likes special checks being gone. Not super easy to fit and can pretty easily end up Aero weak though.
  • Everything in D- is basically a shitmon that has a potential/small niche. Qwilfish is a spiker that resists fire and has good support moves like dbond, maybe something can be done with it.
  • Ban sleep.


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Screen Shot 2021-10-21 at 11.47.06 AM.png

Just wanted to give some general comments on my rankings and meta comments from earlier this year:

First a commentary on the metagame

- I think people are beginning to diversify away from the always need a special wall for offstar mantra that has had an iron grip on adv since offstar took off in 2014. I find people are more likely to include a bulked out zapdos, cm rachi, and metagross or take it on or w a water resist like offensive celebi to take hits from starmie, Suicune, kingdra, offpert instead of the classic special walls such as Blissey, Snorlax, or defensive Jirachi. To me, this pushes the meta in a more offensive direction than the forre laden balances we saw earlier this year.

- I found dd mence making a comeback, but instead of meming about its lack of strength, people are bulking it out to live crazy stuff like bliss ice beam and neutral tar rock slide. I find this coincides w a general viability boost to dragon dance sweepers in conjuction w mag.

- Similar to sand veil last year, I feel people have moved to try to abuse sleep more than before. From my personal CI experience, I have used pretty every sleeper (hypno milo, hypno gar, sing bliss, venu, etc) except for loom and found that it can really open up opponents not only to set up (think dd tar doubling on a sing bliss sleep or sub cm rachi setting up if dol take sleep) but also just generally simplifying the game plan.

- I found rachi to make interesting combinations of mons work with its defensive profile, potential sweeping prowess, and endless customization. I think Rachi approaches gar levels of there's always a rachi set that can mess you up and I think it deserves a bump in viability.

- I also found forre to get a biggggg drop in how much i like using it here. Maybe we're still reeling from the lack of linear's ingenuity to adapting this style, but I've found forre only really good if you're a lot better than your opponent and can consistently outplay. Forre is very threatened by the more offensive slant I've seen teams taking, and I've only really found success w using it as a sole spiker alongside something like dol or star so that it focuses on what it does best.

- I've found myself and others moving more towards special offense and offensive celebis (not cm pass but cm leech and superbi) in general. I'm not talking just the zap loom tar dug cune rachi teams, but also just more offensive cms in general to take advantage of a faster metagame. It'll be interesting to see if this holds beyond ci.

Now onto the a general comment on the rankings:
Big changes (from my last one):

Rachi -> moving into the back of A+ to 4th from its previous 6th and mid A tier
Celebi -> moving from 4th to 8th. I feel this is due to the drop in viability of defensive and cm pass celebi sets and the rise in viability of what comes behind it. Offensive celebi sets are still amazing in my opinion on all types of teams
Gengar -> moving from 9th to 5th. I've been finding gar to really effective in a more offensive meta, esp w suit tar seeming to fall in usage a bit
Skarm -> moving from 10th to 7th. Finding skarm is the premier spiker more than i did in april, esp since I think forre is less effective
Aero -> moving up to 11th. Aero loves taking advantage of faster metas, it's a fantastic revenge killer and I think it enjoys this meta more than the previous iteration
Forre -> 12th to 20th. I think forre might drop even more in a further iteration, but I just feel it is very difficult to consistently spin and spike w the same mon in a balance team throughout the game against an opponent of equal or superior skill.
Mag -> 24th to 16th. I love mag offenses right now. Despite forre dropping imo, mag really enables the dd spam we first saw Asta and then Vapicuno really thrive. I previously thought mag is hard to justify, but I feel very wrong about that opinion
Gyara -> 34th to 18th. This may be a supremely hot take, but I feel Asta's hp ghost gyara really revitalized gyara imo. It really fits well on mag offense and can just bust open teams, despite zap's rise.
Hariyama -> 21st to 31st. I think I really overrated yama in my previous iteration. I think it fits on specific teams, but it is sometimes hard to justify, especially since now everyone knows what it does.

Thanks everyone and roro for tagging me to take part! The meme stuff is in order btw
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:tyranitar: gud mon

:zapdos: best way to check cune and still not suck vs dugtrio, zap is just great on all sort of offenses, sub bp is a great set and im also loving mixed with hpfight.
:metagross: meta is the best offense enabler that doesnt require support, it may not be broken but it never underperforms
:swampert: pert got worse with all the suicunes running around, but it's still the best life saver vs ddtar/aero(unless u count cringe defensive flygon); as far as offensive perts go i like endevour>offpert rn cause at least with end pert you can break through cune

:skarmory: skarm will always be a top 5 adv mon in my mind
:jirachi: sub cm tbolt/ice rachi is the "new" hot thing in adv, but it requires dug/spikes to be really great and that's a bit restrictive, superrachi is underrated and very good(it's actually a semidecent check to subcm rachi), astarachi is also very good especially if u use toxic>bslam
:blissey: bliss is still great, especially with status, sing bliss+dug is quite busted
:gengar: there is a lot of experimentation with gengar's move pool going on, which is cool to see

:Suicune: cune has been buffed in the recent patch, they gave it an offensive set and now it's no longer incompatible with dugtrio and jirachi ;)
:Dugtrio: dugtrio is a bit of a crappy mon but it enables so much stuff, zap rachi and cune being the main offenders, but even stuff like gengar, jolteon, offmie, rain, offcelebi etc.
:Salamence: the chad mon itself, ddmence got a massive buff in the recent patch but mix and cb got nerfed, so overall it's just as good as it was 1 year ago lol, also worth noting with cune rising and pert being a bit worse we see more and more the 4th move on mixmence being something other than hpgrass like roar, wish, stalk, refresh etc.
:Aerodactyl: aero got a small buff in this patch, reason being cb aero being very good into special offense(zap dug etc.), while sub aero really screws with checks like mixmeta/astarachi and last mon sub aereo even beats skarm

:Snorlax: actually one of the few real subcmrachi checks in the tier because it's not weak to dugtrio, but it still gets worne down really easily by spikes+sand
:Claydol: best spinner no cap
:Magneton: mag is gud don't hate
:Forretress: don't know what to say here besides hpfire is gud
:Jolteon: my only regret in CI is not using more jolt, i think jolt is great in the current meta, it does well vs zap dug cune special offense and it's also great vs the subcmrachi skarm dug balance teams

:Celebi: offcelebi is a 6-0 or bust machine, while defensive celebi sux
:Starmie: defensive sux while offensive it's not great rn i feel because dug and aero are really popular
:Heracross: best fighter by a mile imo, run lefties on it and it's really great vs non dugtrio matchups
:Gyarados: gyara has been experimented a lot this year and i think it's better than ever

:Milotic: hypno milo got a buff, while refresh milo on the other hand is quite garbage in this cune infested meta
:Moltres: moltres is a good mu fish vs no bliss/milo/cune and thats really about it
:Breloom: breloom to me is not a real fighting type, i see it more like a trade mon like cbgross or endpert, also stalkmixmence absolutely destroys it

:Vaporeon: offvap is cute, especially with wish+sub, defensive sux tho
:flygon: imo band is the best set, but then why not just use aero at that point
:charizard: cool mon but if u wanna mufish use moltres
:Kingdra: best rain dancer (rip ludi)

:hariyama: i'm a bit low on fighters not named heracross rn, i just think hera gets the job done better in most cases
:Cloyster: not a huge fan of this guy
:venusaur: cool mon, always been a fan
:porygon2: not that great, especially in a subcmrachi infested metagame

:camerupt: the camel in theory is great vs subcmrachi until u realize they always pair it with dug
:medicham: read hariyama
:ludicolo: i have come to the conclusion that kingdra is just better ):
:marowak: in theory good on paraspam but that archeype doesnt really work imo

i haven't tried other bls recently so i don't feel good ranking them

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Hi Everyone,

I tried to take a slightly different approach this time around and really focus on the number teams each pokemon appears on, how important they are to those teams and how effective those teams are in the metagame.

The first tier consists of the best pokemon in the game. These pokemon are the centerpieces of the teams that are most effective in the current metagame. Without these pokemon those teams would not be able to function.

The second tier consists of pokemon that can fill a variety of roles on a variety of teams. They are consistently strong but can often be mixed and matched with other pokemon in this tier depending on what you want to do with your team.

The third tier consists of pokemon that fill important specific niches on good teams. They are a bit limited in the variety of teams they can fit on due to generally being a bit one dimensional but without their support a number of important archetypes would not be able to function.

The next tier includes pokemon that either add variance to the teams they are on or fit onto naturally high variance archetypes. Variance in this context can refer to high RNG elements, high risk high reward prediction elements, or lopsided match ups. These pokemon lack consistency but provide comeback potential in losing situations and disrupt common archetypes so are quite useful particularly in tournament scenarios.

The next tier are pokemon that do fill holes on certain teams but generally these teams are one dimensional and not effective in the current metagame. If you feel you require the qualities one of these pokemon in order for your team to function you are generally better off scrapping the team and starting over.

The final tier consists of pokemon that I believe have potential but haven't been experimented with enough to fully realize that potential. I have tried to order these pokemon within this tier by my perceived potential of them but this is largely theoretical. I also believe it is quite likely many of these pokemon are better than those in the tiers above so you can feel free to not include them in my rankings.

Let me know if I missed anything!
S Tier
Compared to last time, I like dd sets a whole lot more. Sand's still broken and sandless adv still sucks. Suittar doesn't seem as good as it was, or at least the balances it fits on (forre teams specifically). In my experience, suittar is better at trapping claydol for spikes teams than gengar for forre teams.

S- Tier
I've come around on spikeless Gengar teams. Still works best on spikes, but who doesn't really. Hypnogar is extremely strong with spikes or Dugtrio, and regular wisp gar is still impossible to switch into. Most Gengar sets are at worst a 50/50 or a good double switch away from winning the suittar interaction, which makes this guy just so hard to cover defensively. Don't try to spinblock except against forre unless you're good enough to know you have to. Was gonna put him at the top of A+ but honestly gar just feels so much stronger than everything else in there,

A+ Tier
Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 40 SpA / 44 SpD / 52 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
- Protect
would be here alone. Other sets are icing on the cake. I do not like monopert, but with roar (and maybe focus punch) it's definitely pretty good.
Same guy he was before. Zapdug sux but this thing's such a beast as an offensive pivot. Max HP and mixed sets are just as great as they were before, and I'm no longer a whore for restzap but resttalk is pretty awesome if you can keep spikes.
Extremely versatile as always, agiligross is particularly nasty if you have another plan to get rid of waters OR another mon that sweeps when waters are gone. Pairs really well with fire types for that reason, and provides a really scary skarm punish. CBGross clicks its 2 moves like nothing else can and I am personally very fond of mixed sets with hp grass.
Super easy and consistent to pilot. Skarm teams only really have one bad matchup (magdol) and that's both a bad fish and not even a guaranteed win. Skarm offense should run Gengar, balance doesn't need it but really appreciates the help. Being able to spike at least once on just about anything is super good and one of the reasons Skarm's so much better than forre, but I'll get to that more in the forre bit. Try out phazeless skarm with taunt, it's really good (either protox taunt or peck tox taunt. Especially the second one.)

A Tier
EXTREMELY versatile, but I haven't felt too good about spdef sets recently. Not actually switching in safely on any special attackers finally caught up to it, I guess. FEARRachi is really good. SubCM is flavor of the month right now, and is also incredible if you run psychic on it. Ice punch is good for freezing pert and all, but psychic/tbolt or hp water is just too good to pass up on imo. Superachi is as good as ever and beats bliss an uncomfortable amount of time for both the bliss and rachi players.
Might be the number one victim of people using bad sets and then complaining about it being bad. Most people use bad sets and then still say it's good though, which I guess is a point in its favor. Use modest with special attacks and toxic (or a third special attack or... subcm) and you will not regret it. Wish stoss stuff has a time and a place but is overused (in a literal sense) in my opinion.
Mixmence is still really good, but kinda lackluster without spikes UNLESS it's very attack invested, which is a good set in itself. DDMence is another flavor of the month thing, but much like subcm rachi I think it's here to stay unless the meta goes in a completely weird direction. Thanks to vapicuno for unlocking the dragon dance DLC for us.

A- Tier
I've used like 1 defensive Celebi recently and it's pretty good if your team doesn't just fold to starmie/offcune aside from it. Superbi goes crazy like always. Run modest on it and it's just so goddamn strong at +1. Heals itself a ton with giga, too. CMpass is good under the right circumstances but cm 3atks is much better in general.
UDCune doesn't hit as many 6-0 matchups as it did at one point, but it's still a nasty set. I've finally made a modest crocune squad that I'm happy with, but I'll keep it under wraps until I use it in tournament I think. Defensive crocune is pretty bad. Roarcune is good if you use it offensively and as a water check or just get it traded with metagross. Offcune is really, really good, but run surf on it not hydro.
I've lost to subliechi aero a bit too often to think of it as just an sdpass recipient, that thing is a total menace for offense to face. CB is incredibly strong as it usually is. Doesn't really need spikes but is probably the 2nd or 3rd best abuser so you feel the drop in power without them pretty heavily.

B+ tier (really big gap here)
Really really bad if you aren't running attack investment, seriously don't even try to do that, at least when using the standard eq/spin/psychic/boom set. Using this thing as a check to attackers is kinda painful, but boom is its saving grace and spin can be invaluable on some teams. Claydol's pretty good to just throw on a team as your last mon, and it'll put in some work.
I'm higher on lax than I was last time, he's not entirely terrible. Curseboom is so expected now that I think it's not worth using at all, but fpunch+boom generally does a pretty good job at trading itself for all/a big chunk of skarm. 4mss is a real bitch for lax though, and most lax teams don't really have a choice except trading a burn on lax for maybe 60% on gengar, if you even have shadow ball to begin with.
Dug teams just get absolutely victimized by the setupspam that's been everywhere on the ladder, but we haven't seen as much of that in tours. Pairs well with rachi. Dug special offense seems to have mostly fallen by the wayside, or at least teams that rely on dug trapping your opponents' blisseys. It's much better at killing tar and metagross anyway to set up for your rachi in the back. Very difficult to make a dug team that isn't very weak to skarmory.
Offmie is due for a comeback, what with the offense that's running the tier right now. Still pretty hard to fit on spikes, unfortunately, although Kerts's classic team is still quite good. Bold sets are alright too, and one of the best ways of shielding your more important defensive mon from metagross.

B- Tier (pretty big gap between these two)
Knock is really good and fighting type attacks hit really hard. Doesn't do as well against offense as it does against fat, but is one of the only ways that lame teams can make progress against other lame teams. Rest isn't entirely terrible, but resttalk is.
Super threatening, especially behind spikes. I'm a big fan of beat up on this too, although opposing bliss is probably to scared of focus punch to switch in anyway, but with beat up and brick break you're much more free to spam fire blast than you would be if you were running focus punch. Zard is also pretty consistent at getting pert to stay in and trade getting hit with an hp grass for the kill, which helps out a lot if you're running ddtar and/or agiligross behind. Pretty unique in that it does really heavy damage to both physical and special walls, and it's one of (if not just) the strongest skarm punishes in the tier.
Gets OHKO'd by everything and its mother and needs to win 50/50s vs just to get a spin off. Suittar losing to gengar is an increasingly common sight and that interaction just keeps favoring gengar more and more by the day, so running this alongside another spinner feels almost necessary, especially due to how spikes-weak forre itself is. Once you're doing that, spin feels like a waste of a moveslot, and anyway skarm+spinner is quite good so why people run forre+spinner is confusing to me. Zap cannon helps this thing. Main problem is the guys that punish forre (fires, mixed attackers) are a lot harder to switch into than the guys that punish skarm (electrics) and forre has less room to stay in on mixed attackers than skarm does, meaning they are less inclined to actually click fire blast and more free to guess at your switchin. Milo solves those issues but this isn't the time or place to write about why I think milo forre is not a good structure.
Gets more 6-0 matchups than anything else, 85% of the time. Maybe this is the place to write about why milo forre sucks.
Subpassing is still strong, pairs pretty well with dug even. Works much better on physical offenses than special offenses. When using it try not to get too caught up in subpassing and try to spam some water moves, cause vap's strong as shit.
Really strong lategame and sleep's broken as per usual, kinda fizzles out earlygame though and lacks much defensive utility. Please don't go hard into this thing on tar t1 lol. Basically needing pursuit or being a slot with very low value against gengar teams really hamstrings him, because offensive loom squads would probably like to run ddtar instead of suit. SD isn't as great as I thought it was, just trying to get 1.5 kills lategame once you've traded down to 3vs3 is loom's best application.

C Tier
Really a lot better against opposing gengar than suittar is, and also has a really good matchup against cm users. Allowing you to run dd/phystar alongside your offensive fighters is extremely nice. Surprisingly customizable, alongside your fire move and crunch and suit, roar wisp hpgrass and even beat up are all good in the last slot depending on the team. Houndoom is the kind of mon that makes members of its team look really good, even if it only does a couple things over the course of the battle. I'm extremely high on doom and I think it should see a lot more usage.
Asta's ghost gyara is really neat. Gyara's nice on teams that beat up skarm and leave it low, although I think mag offense is not that great. Of course, gyara likes mag support if you can fit it, but it's good that it isn't necessary. Pairs well with other setuppers, which is really nice.
Just fine, I don't have much to say about it despite trying to use it several times. Getting a spike or three and blowing up is strong. I've tried spin with wish support, but it kinda sucks unfortunately. Ice beam is good.
Physical offenses don't need it and mag spin is pretty bad, so I am not very high on mag. Can be pretty annoying for some teams, and can act as a pretty decent half-measure to zap and aero, especially because you don't mind saccing this once it's done its job. Aero locking into eq against a good mag team is suicide anyway.
Another one that's just fine. I like hp ice on it. Kerts joltspikes is good but this thing seriously has one team.
Not necessarily worse than Zapdos on all teams, but it's so much less customizable. Beats up phys offense, but not quite as well as offmie does. Protect is cool.
Actually beats up phys offense even better than offmie! Sometimes. Really restrictive on the types of team that it fits on (basically requires dug, unfortunately) but pairs pretty well with heracross like other offensive waters do. Run sub on it.

D Tier
Just use Suicune, if Suicune isn't sufficient defensively then milo probably wasn't going to be either. Absolutely 0 offensive pressure sucks. Loses hard to opposing spikes unless you're running like milomagdol.
Really cool. Hard to think of roro's cb regice as anything more than a gimmick that won't ever work again now that it's revealed, but gee that was pretty neat. Modest boltbeam twave boom is hellish for special offense but pretty bad into other teamstyles.
Probably the most efficient beerlover matchup fish, other than that it's not great.
Countertrapping dug is aight and helps to not get swept by some of the good physicals in the tier. Hp fight boltbeam is the only one I've really used much recently.
Massive beast, unfortunately held back by 4mss and crippling weakness to waters. Boom is nice but you have to predict to get it on cune bc you get outsped and ohko'd. Iron tail is nice to deter some switches.
Kinda fallen out of favor with me, physical sets are cool and wisp+spikes immunity is great but unfortunately this is the 3rd best mon in the tier with wisp and a spikes immunity.
Gotta be my least-used OU by far, even less than p2. Henz's subliechi one was cool but needs too much support. Gets around the extreme pain of locking into EQ, but flygon's just not strong. Defensive sets have some merit but it's just so, so much worse than pert.
I mean it's not that bad. Not quite as good as jynx in the lead position, but has some merit as a cleaner in the back.
Fine lead but idk if I've ever seen it out of that slot. If you need tar gone so badly that you're willing to give up a mon and the immediate momentum that dug gives your opponent, then go right ahead. LK turn 1 into tar is suicidal, you're just asking to be down 6-4 right off the bat against dug bulk ddtar.

Technically usable Tier (half starless nights half paraspam)
Fun, hpfight is cool, tox is nice, but this thing struggles
annoying in rain but it's not as strong as kingdra and has a worse defensive typing
pass recipient and paralysis abuser, probably worse than rhydon at the second thing though
kinda fucks up some teams but super prediction reliant and frail unfortunately

This is pretty much every mon I've used on a non-meme team over the last 6 months, and one mon I haven't (flygon). Houndoom is super good, and really opens up the game for fighters. Don't try to directly switch your pursuit mon into Gengar unless you know its set because you're going to lose.


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