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OU ADV OU Viability Ranking
- Thread starter McMeghan
- Start date
I think I have fixed it now..
could we see what the vr without abrs submission would look like? hes more than competent enough that he deserves to be there, but the list without abrs submission would better reflect meta trends and what people run (even if potentially not viability and what is best, if abr has some galaxy brain trickshot methodology behind it all)
Typically these are adjusted for outliers. I imagine the data post will have that
Disclaimer: This VR is representative of my usage over my last 26 important ADV tour games (jimvitational + classic playoffs). While, in theory, usage does not have to fully align with viability, I believe in putting my money where my mouth is. As such, I use things I believe to be good and don't use things I don't believe to be good.
S
this is evidently going to seem crazy to most people. however... i used blissey in over half my games. it's pretty much the only real special wall in adv, and that type of defensive certainty is near mandatory when you are using things that invite special attacks. spikers, like skarmory and forretress, invite these types of special attacks, and as such i use blissey on roughly 99% of my spike balance teams. the only real exception would be superman, but even then blissey can fit on those (such as the missy 6 where bliss is the only mon taking spikes). the other thing that makes blissey so amazing is its set versatility, between twave toxic sing aroma cm counter you have a ton of options to choose from that help make it more of an active presence.
the best revenge killer in the tier by far. it can trap, with minimal or no chip: bliss, loom, cele, hera, rachi, mag, meta, tar, and other non-ou mons too. the main way to fight against dug is spikes, but dug spike spin teams are the overall most consistent in adv (they also feature blissey...) and dug offenses can often overwhelm spike teams by winning first. i also have to mention the lead dug trend that is absolutely real and makes people consider the lead meta in a different way. there is also the enabling of weather reset (tarless) teams that i love recently.
spikes are more important than sand in terms of shaping adv, and skarm is the best spiker. the only reason i'm not putting it higher is my appreciation of other spikers, which is mostly forry but cloy smear have their uses i will talk about as well.
A+
gar only really fits on spike teams and dug teams, but 90% of my teams have 1 of those 2 elements and gar is amazing when you can fit it. i still believe that boom is the best no matter what team, but things like dbond, raindance, and modest full atker sets are super cool alongside boom too. it's just fast with great immunities and offensive versatility, so long as you don't over-rely on wisp it will be good.
the best mon at exploding, and enabler of offensive strategies. i like cb, mix, and agility (boom, not slide) a lot, cuz the other sets feel like they rely on mash accuracy more. i also like how these sets play into skarm teams, because cb and mix threaten skarm more directly, and agility means you can boom on a defensive piece cuz dug can't revenge you anymore. however, it is not a great physical wall / dd answer and that needs to be kept in mind.
i used to be a big suicune hater, but rain dance changed this for me. i mean, the modest non-rest sets are still amazingly threatening and defensively useful for faster paced teams, but rest alongside dugtrio and weather reset is extremely consistent. when you get the conditions right, and they aren't that hard to get right, then it's often either unkillable or sweeping outright. the right suicune set beats pretty much any team.
A
offensive all the way. modest surf and then honestly pick any 3 of tbolt ice spin recover and you're good. it cleans through offensive teams as well as defensive teams after some steps are taken (like using gar or dug to remove bliss). offmie is also beautiful in the sense that it actually scares skarm out directly so you can keep those spikes off. twave sets are valid but hinge more on the spinning and it requires very precise play vs tox skarm, gar, or suit tar.
gonna be real, i think eq is mid on claydol. psy spin boom are mandatory on pretty much all sets (run boom on mons that learn it), so that leaves eq vs the refresh/rest slot. frankly, if you want any sort of longevity then you need the status healing options and all the eq targets take spikes (or get dugged) anyway. if you happen to use a dol offense with like lax meta and no dug or spikes, then yea you should run eq. anyway, it soft checks pretty much the entire tier with boom and fits on a large variety of teams. it glues many mons, like rest cune, together with a larger team.
so, i have been enjoying forry more lately, but i still don't like the usual structures. i think that forry tar with no other spinner is mid and does not set the right conditions vs opposing spike teams. some ways i've been using forry that feel good are: physdef firetox to 1v1 skarm and other forry alongside umbreon, spike bug zapcannon boom + dol, and spike ghost spin rest + aroma.
versatile in sets and the teams it can fit on. cm and mixed sets are very threatening but usually my favorite is just toxic physdef. it 1v1s tar meta pert and the things that threaten it (fires, dug, gar) can't come in safely or repeatedly. it also takes spikes but wishtect in sand is amazing healing and fully stops things like aero.
A-
one of the best traders and most important mons in the tier for spikeless / dugless teams. whether you use mag, meta, or both to batter skarm, that will generally open up enough room for lax to do its thing. far from a perfect special wall but it, like claydol, soft checks about every mon in the tier yet does so with a much stronger boom.
okay, yes. tar is low on my vr, and i only used it 5/26 games. i did not get rampantly swept by lax, cune, or salac hera. so why do i use less tar than most? i think it's a jack-of-all-trades that does not excel at any one role. it is not a physical wall, special wall, boom trader, spinner, spiker, or spike immune. it can trap, but not as majorly as dug or mag. it can soft check zapdos while applying pressure on a blissey, but performing one role worsens its ability to do the other. it often needs spikes to get past its checks (say, waters), but using a slow pokemon with no defined defensive niche on a spike team is very hard to do. i'd often rather be using a spinner, dug, or gar on my spike teams. sand is nice in some games but hurts a lot of ur own mons too. i also feel like none of tars sets are that amazing, but my favorite right now is probably cb or suit. high ceiling pokemon but i prefer more defined roles from the mons i use.
i think pert is good and important, but my recent high suicune usage has led to less perts. it's probably the best solo physwall in the tier, but that's usually best on teams with spikes. if you're using pert spikes, you may end up weak to opposing spikes, and thus want spin. but if you're spinning, then you feel like you should use cune or milo with your dol to be better vs mixed attackers, so this leaves pert less room. pert is still valid on spinless defensive teams (usually with wish bliss for me), or on offenses. but also on offenses i prefer things like meta, regirock, mie, dol, offcune in place of where pert would usually go, and those other mons also don't need to pump to threaten skarm. timelessly important but not its time to shine right now.
not much to say, skarmforry are good and therefore magneton has use. i still only use modest magnet, and i guess the main thing i could say about magneton is that regirock is amazing with it. more on regi later tho.
it's bad at being a special wall, good at applying pressure. i don't use leech 3 cuz i don't really use cele tar skarm, but i like cele with mag a lot. leech pass sets or honestly just super (cm 3atk) is very good and checks things that magoff usually dislikes (pert and gar to name a couple).
B+
still really good vs some offenses but often feels like it relies on prediction / doesn't have enough time to create the autowin scenarios with spikes. its worse than dug at revenge killing cm'ers, and it's better at revenging birds but it feels like you either get walled by skarm + rock resist anyway, or you don't have enough juice to bypass dual rock res (pert meta or pert rachi type stuff) on offense. it will never be unviable but honestly not a huge fan rn.
the only spike immune physical wall, amazing vs things like rock spam. tox tect with either of hprock or flame is always reliable if your partners can deal with the gar type of mons which they usually can. id say the main issue with flygon is how it matches up vs meta mag combos and differing suicune sets. i also like cb gon as a way to hybridize a dug/aero of sorts that can hard into tar or meta, usually alongside defensive jirachi.
used to not be a fan, but now i am. i still don't rly use it as a skarm replacement but i like it as a spiker on more offensive teams alongside trappers. i had some success with cloy mag and cloy dug, as cloys boom is a good way to secure those traps. i still like going timid with it.
very solid. without dug i like investing in a ton of atk (like near max neutral) for boom ranges on blissey and the like, and with dug even weak booms are good positioning tools. it's incredible vs zapdug teams but also bliss-less spike teams as well. vs blissey you just trade and open up for something like offmie which is plenty good. seismic toss is a neat trick alongside leads that are zapdos weak so you can break the sub pass (i used this with cloy for example).
super deadly in the late games, imo a better function than leading with it most times. you can gain subs on a ton of mons (refpert, skarm if ur lastmon, non cm psy cele, cm bliss, def rachi, gar), and steamroll from there. i've been using it more on spike spin teams rather than offenses because early bliss chips dug or baits beatup -> then you can counter-trap and your kou is set to sweep in the late game. you can also ev it to live a single eq from meta mence dol etc.
B
amazing at what it does (walling mixed attackers), but i really only like to use it on v5 styles (bliss dug dol milo skarm for those unaware). it also unfortunately faces competiton from cune who is a lot better vs opposing milo cune and lax, but it is definitely more comfortable vs zard mence and the like.
honestly, not a big fan. i feel like on spikeless teams it needs dugtrio for progress but i often prefer mons like jynx and explosion users to guarantee my progress more. on spike teams it can make progress but i prefer blissey as a special wall and it also gives claydol opportunity to spin, unless ur using a ghost type but skarm zap ghost(gar) is already a lot of slots and really only fits on superman. if i use it, its with spdef evs and alongside a flygon most likely.
similar to zapdos, while being much worse vs eq and spikes it's often better vs opposing special attackers. i pretty much only use it with meta mie skarm but those teams are timeless.
my guy. i used it quite a bit in revival 1 and for this batch a couple more times in jimvitational. i honestly like hprock over slide for reliability, but besides that and boom there's a lot of flexibility. usually superpower is good vs lax tar, but twave counter etc are great picks as well. it amazingly checks every dragon dancer, lax, zard, mixmence, and does all this while threatening boom on the offensive end. this type of role compression is massive for teams that need help vs the aforementioned threats, like mag teams do. i mean, it's kind of like a tar with better defense and explosion... it just doesn't set sand. rock lax mag, rock lax dol, rock skarm spin, imo these are all good and honestly fairly consistent.
not a ton to say, just better at forcing kills for dug teams than zap usually is. perish (with sub cb dug) is my fav set for that reason, but within that nevermelt and modest are cool options for stuff like nuking opposing zap t1 or 2hkoing offensive tars.
strong dad energy, the hit n run king. for a spike team i really liked the forry umb combo to help vs skarm and gar without necessitating mag. for my own mag team i liked the lax cele combo to bait gar and have backup help vs special attackers. if you get it in the right position (weather reset ideally, skarm dealt with in some form, or just facing offense) it is truly unbeatable. super good at patching up physical weaknesses as well due to its crazy defense.
the best for trapping gar, synchro vs wisp pretty much kills it on the spot. wish tect is good, and honestly umb walls stuff like zap and mixmence pretty well too. charm is a cute option over toxic if you want to use it as a lax check. i would use it with a spinner and 1 of spikes / mag still.
something about this or baton pass still needs to be banned.
B-
i only used it once but i will probably use it more in the future. it's one of the most self sufficient attackers in the tier, not really mandating trapping or spikes even if they are cool bonuses. it's like a mixmence that's better vs skarmbliss and threatens cele rachi more directly. you really need tools vs cune/milo teams tho.
more sufficient than zard in that it kinda needs spikes, but it can be really potent due to its added strength. personally, though, i find its main appeal over zard to be its bulk and because of that i like rest moltres. rest status or rest sunnyday are really good on skarmbliss teams for fighting opposing fires and sitting around to beat opposing skarmbliss with no real time limit.
the best fighter, probably should be ou soon. reversal is cute in the back but it also has an amazing spread at lead. cb is fun and deadly if ur ready to click right.
has better typing as a dd'er than mence even if its slower and weaker. i don't really like dragon dancing much in general tho, often feels like too much has to be set up to get an otherwise mediocre mon going. still, it can definitely sweep some endgames with the right set and i respect that.
same ol same ol, ddpass is cheese but can win t1, while spikes sets are far more consistent. i like mixing it up with encore, dbond, dd boom, whirlwind, etc. really good vs stuff like skarm zap cune leads and can build huge early advantages.
same ol same ol, great vs claydol but meh vs offense (tho dbond is a nice touch in the lax mu). perish song is a good panic button but overall a lot less deadly than something like gar with wisp and boom. i feel like the missy classic with zapmolt can get overrun by offense pretty fast due to being slow paced with not much to change that. still, can definitely autowin some games vs spinner teams.
can be super good but also needs a lot in its favor. i liked it with cloy dug and 3 other boom mons (gar regi meta) to eliminate bliss cune stuff. rd boom gar is an amazing way to get ur kingdra a headstart without taking chip prior, shoutout to Mana for that.
super good physical wall, but needs specific support to not lose to skarm. that is, either run a magneton or do something like mu division don forry where donphan beats peck skarm and forry beats tox skarm, but this doesn't work as well vs pecktox combo and you still need to bypass the gengar. however, huge upside vs some physical offenses and garless teams than run peck skarm.
knock off mon that owns dol and lax (psychup for curse, but yea u can get crit). hits super well in its good mus but also extremely frail for its less good mus (mixed attackers, specoff in general) that it is hard to justify sometimes. still, a viable way to beat some top tiers mons that should be considered.
C+
alright, honestly not my cup of tea, but let me explain. dd has many of the same issues as dd gyara but kind of made worse by the 4x ice weak. mix is its overall best set but idk if intimidate really justifies it over zard which is a much better breaker. its a fast bird but really mid at checking cmers compared to dug aero zard etc. cb has a defined niche of being good vs fighting types and cune, but its still cbmence and can often thud super hard vs tss. im ranking it out of respect, but i genuinely used 0 mence in my last 26 games and i never felt the urge to build with it.
~
hope you enjoyed the read, until next time
S
this is evidently going to seem crazy to most people. however... i used blissey in over half my games. it's pretty much the only real special wall in adv, and that type of defensive certainty is near mandatory when you are using things that invite special attacks. spikers, like skarmory and forretress, invite these types of special attacks, and as such i use blissey on roughly 99% of my spike balance teams. the only real exception would be superman, but even then blissey can fit on those (such as the missy 6 where bliss is the only mon taking spikes). the other thing that makes blissey so amazing is its set versatility, between twave toxic sing aroma cm counter you have a ton of options to choose from that help make it more of an active presence.
the best revenge killer in the tier by far. it can trap, with minimal or no chip: bliss, loom, cele, hera, rachi, mag, meta, tar, and other non-ou mons too. the main way to fight against dug is spikes, but dug spike spin teams are the overall most consistent in adv (they also feature blissey...) and dug offenses can often overwhelm spike teams by winning first. i also have to mention the lead dug trend that is absolutely real and makes people consider the lead meta in a different way. there is also the enabling of weather reset (tarless) teams that i love recently.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-798195?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786563?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786733?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786631
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-785570
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786563?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786733?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786631
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-785570
spikes are more important than sand in terms of shaping adv, and skarm is the best spiker. the only reason i'm not putting it higher is my appreciation of other spikers, which is mostly forry but cloy smear have their uses i will talk about as well.
A+
gar only really fits on spike teams and dug teams, but 90% of my teams have 1 of those 2 elements and gar is amazing when you can fit it. i still believe that boom is the best no matter what team, but things like dbond, raindance, and modest full atker sets are super cool alongside boom too. it's just fast with great immunities and offensive versatility, so long as you don't over-rely on wisp it will be good.
the best mon at exploding, and enabler of offensive strategies. i like cb, mix, and agility (boom, not slide) a lot, cuz the other sets feel like they rely on mash accuracy more. i also like how these sets play into skarm teams, because cb and mix threaten skarm more directly, and agility means you can boom on a defensive piece cuz dug can't revenge you anymore. however, it is not a great physical wall / dd answer and that needs to be kept in mind.
i used to be a big suicune hater, but rain dance changed this for me. i mean, the modest non-rest sets are still amazingly threatening and defensively useful for faster paced teams, but rest alongside dugtrio and weather reset is extremely consistent. when you get the conditions right, and they aren't that hard to get right, then it's often either unkillable or sweeping outright. the right suicune set beats pretty much any team.
A
offensive all the way. modest surf and then honestly pick any 3 of tbolt ice spin recover and you're good. it cleans through offensive teams as well as defensive teams after some steps are taken (like using gar or dug to remove bliss). offmie is also beautiful in the sense that it actually scares skarm out directly so you can keep those spikes off. twave sets are valid but hinge more on the spinning and it requires very precise play vs tox skarm, gar, or suit tar.
gonna be real, i think eq is mid on claydol. psy spin boom are mandatory on pretty much all sets (run boom on mons that learn it), so that leaves eq vs the refresh/rest slot. frankly, if you want any sort of longevity then you need the status healing options and all the eq targets take spikes (or get dugged) anyway. if you happen to use a dol offense with like lax meta and no dug or spikes, then yea you should run eq. anyway, it soft checks pretty much the entire tier with boom and fits on a large variety of teams. it glues many mons, like rest cune, together with a larger team.
so, i have been enjoying forry more lately, but i still don't like the usual structures. i think that forry tar with no other spinner is mid and does not set the right conditions vs opposing spike teams. some ways i've been using forry that feel good are: physdef firetox to 1v1 skarm and other forry alongside umbreon, spike bug zapcannon boom + dol, and spike ghost spin rest + aroma.
versatile in sets and the teams it can fit on. cm and mixed sets are very threatening but usually my favorite is just toxic physdef. it 1v1s tar meta pert and the things that threaten it (fires, dug, gar) can't come in safely or repeatedly. it also takes spikes but wishtect in sand is amazing healing and fully stops things like aero.
A-
one of the best traders and most important mons in the tier for spikeless / dugless teams. whether you use mag, meta, or both to batter skarm, that will generally open up enough room for lax to do its thing. far from a perfect special wall but it, like claydol, soft checks about every mon in the tier yet does so with a much stronger boom.
okay, yes. tar is low on my vr, and i only used it 5/26 games. i did not get rampantly swept by lax, cune, or salac hera. so why do i use less tar than most? i think it's a jack-of-all-trades that does not excel at any one role. it is not a physical wall, special wall, boom trader, spinner, spiker, or spike immune. it can trap, but not as majorly as dug or mag. it can soft check zapdos while applying pressure on a blissey, but performing one role worsens its ability to do the other. it often needs spikes to get past its checks (say, waters), but using a slow pokemon with no defined defensive niche on a spike team is very hard to do. i'd often rather be using a spinner, dug, or gar on my spike teams. sand is nice in some games but hurts a lot of ur own mons too. i also feel like none of tars sets are that amazing, but my favorite right now is probably cb or suit. high ceiling pokemon but i prefer more defined roles from the mons i use.
i think pert is good and important, but my recent high suicune usage has led to less perts. it's probably the best solo physwall in the tier, but that's usually best on teams with spikes. if you're using pert spikes, you may end up weak to opposing spikes, and thus want spin. but if you're spinning, then you feel like you should use cune or milo with your dol to be better vs mixed attackers, so this leaves pert less room. pert is still valid on spinless defensive teams (usually with wish bliss for me), or on offenses. but also on offenses i prefer things like meta, regirock, mie, dol, offcune in place of where pert would usually go, and those other mons also don't need to pump to threaten skarm. timelessly important but not its time to shine right now.
not much to say, skarmforry are good and therefore magneton has use. i still only use modest magnet, and i guess the main thing i could say about magneton is that regirock is amazing with it. more on regi later tho.
it's bad at being a special wall, good at applying pressure. i don't use leech 3 cuz i don't really use cele tar skarm, but i like cele with mag a lot. leech pass sets or honestly just super (cm 3atk) is very good and checks things that magoff usually dislikes (pert and gar to name a couple).
B+
still really good vs some offenses but often feels like it relies on prediction / doesn't have enough time to create the autowin scenarios with spikes. its worse than dug at revenge killing cm'ers, and it's better at revenging birds but it feels like you either get walled by skarm + rock resist anyway, or you don't have enough juice to bypass dual rock res (pert meta or pert rachi type stuff) on offense. it will never be unviable but honestly not a huge fan rn.
the only spike immune physical wall, amazing vs things like rock spam. tox tect with either of hprock or flame is always reliable if your partners can deal with the gar type of mons which they usually can. id say the main issue with flygon is how it matches up vs meta mag combos and differing suicune sets. i also like cb gon as a way to hybridize a dug/aero of sorts that can hard into tar or meta, usually alongside defensive jirachi.
used to not be a fan, but now i am. i still don't rly use it as a skarm replacement but i like it as a spiker on more offensive teams alongside trappers. i had some success with cloy mag and cloy dug, as cloys boom is a good way to secure those traps. i still like going timid with it.
very solid. without dug i like investing in a ton of atk (like near max neutral) for boom ranges on blissey and the like, and with dug even weak booms are good positioning tools. it's incredible vs zapdug teams but also bliss-less spike teams as well. vs blissey you just trade and open up for something like offmie which is plenty good. seismic toss is a neat trick alongside leads that are zapdos weak so you can break the sub pass (i used this with cloy for example).
super deadly in the late games, imo a better function than leading with it most times. you can gain subs on a ton of mons (refpert, skarm if ur lastmon, non cm psy cele, cm bliss, def rachi, gar), and steamroll from there. i've been using it more on spike spin teams rather than offenses because early bliss chips dug or baits beatup -> then you can counter-trap and your kou is set to sweep in the late game. you can also ev it to live a single eq from meta mence dol etc.
B
amazing at what it does (walling mixed attackers), but i really only like to use it on v5 styles (bliss dug dol milo skarm for those unaware). it also unfortunately faces competiton from cune who is a lot better vs opposing milo cune and lax, but it is definitely more comfortable vs zard mence and the like.
honestly, not a big fan. i feel like on spikeless teams it needs dugtrio for progress but i often prefer mons like jynx and explosion users to guarantee my progress more. on spike teams it can make progress but i prefer blissey as a special wall and it also gives claydol opportunity to spin, unless ur using a ghost type but skarm zap ghost(gar) is already a lot of slots and really only fits on superman. if i use it, its with spdef evs and alongside a flygon most likely.
similar to zapdos, while being much worse vs eq and spikes it's often better vs opposing special attackers. i pretty much only use it with meta mie skarm but those teams are timeless.
my guy. i used it quite a bit in revival 1 and for this batch a couple more times in jimvitational. i honestly like hprock over slide for reliability, but besides that and boom there's a lot of flexibility. usually superpower is good vs lax tar, but twave counter etc are great picks as well. it amazingly checks every dragon dancer, lax, zard, mixmence, and does all this while threatening boom on the offensive end. this type of role compression is massive for teams that need help vs the aforementioned threats, like mag teams do. i mean, it's kind of like a tar with better defense and explosion... it just doesn't set sand. rock lax mag, rock lax dol, rock skarm spin, imo these are all good and honestly fairly consistent.
not a ton to say, just better at forcing kills for dug teams than zap usually is. perish (with sub cb dug) is my fav set for that reason, but within that nevermelt and modest are cool options for stuff like nuking opposing zap t1 or 2hkoing offensive tars.
strong dad energy, the hit n run king. for a spike team i really liked the forry umb combo to help vs skarm and gar without necessitating mag. for my own mag team i liked the lax cele combo to bait gar and have backup help vs special attackers. if you get it in the right position (weather reset ideally, skarm dealt with in some form, or just facing offense) it is truly unbeatable. super good at patching up physical weaknesses as well due to its crazy defense.
the best for trapping gar, synchro vs wisp pretty much kills it on the spot. wish tect is good, and honestly umb walls stuff like zap and mixmence pretty well too. charm is a cute option over toxic if you want to use it as a lax check. i would use it with a spinner and 1 of spikes / mag still.
something about this or baton pass still needs to be banned.
B-
i only used it once but i will probably use it more in the future. it's one of the most self sufficient attackers in the tier, not really mandating trapping or spikes even if they are cool bonuses. it's like a mixmence that's better vs skarmbliss and threatens cele rachi more directly. you really need tools vs cune/milo teams tho.
more sufficient than zard in that it kinda needs spikes, but it can be really potent due to its added strength. personally, though, i find its main appeal over zard to be its bulk and because of that i like rest moltres. rest status or rest sunnyday are really good on skarmbliss teams for fighting opposing fires and sitting around to beat opposing skarmbliss with no real time limit.
the best fighter, probably should be ou soon. reversal is cute in the back but it also has an amazing spread at lead. cb is fun and deadly if ur ready to click right.
has better typing as a dd'er than mence even if its slower and weaker. i don't really like dragon dancing much in general tho, often feels like too much has to be set up to get an otherwise mediocre mon going. still, it can definitely sweep some endgames with the right set and i respect that.
same ol same ol, ddpass is cheese but can win t1, while spikes sets are far more consistent. i like mixing it up with encore, dbond, dd boom, whirlwind, etc. really good vs stuff like skarm zap cune leads and can build huge early advantages.
same ol same ol, great vs claydol but meh vs offense (tho dbond is a nice touch in the lax mu). perish song is a good panic button but overall a lot less deadly than something like gar with wisp and boom. i feel like the missy classic with zapmolt can get overrun by offense pretty fast due to being slow paced with not much to change that. still, can definitely autowin some games vs spinner teams.
can be super good but also needs a lot in its favor. i liked it with cloy dug and 3 other boom mons (gar regi meta) to eliminate bliss cune stuff. rd boom gar is an amazing way to get ur kingdra a headstart without taking chip prior, shoutout to Mana for that.
super good physical wall, but needs specific support to not lose to skarm. that is, either run a magneton or do something like mu division don forry where donphan beats peck skarm and forry beats tox skarm, but this doesn't work as well vs pecktox combo and you still need to bypass the gengar. however, huge upside vs some physical offenses and garless teams than run peck skarm.
knock off mon that owns dol and lax (psychup for curse, but yea u can get crit). hits super well in its good mus but also extremely frail for its less good mus (mixed attackers, specoff in general) that it is hard to justify sometimes. still, a viable way to beat some top tiers mons that should be considered.
C+
alright, honestly not my cup of tea, but let me explain. dd has many of the same issues as dd gyara but kind of made worse by the 4x ice weak. mix is its overall best set but idk if intimidate really justifies it over zard which is a much better breaker. its a fast bird but really mid at checking cmers compared to dug aero zard etc. cb has a defined niche of being good vs fighting types and cune, but its still cbmence and can often thud super hard vs tss. im ranking it out of respect, but i genuinely used 0 mence in my last 26 games and i never felt the urge to build with it.
~
hope you enjoyed the read, until next time
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Quick summary of VR:
S:
A1:
A2:
B1:
B2:
C1:
C2:
D:
Main things I noted data-wise are
1. Tyranitar and Skarmory stand in similar relative order to last year - 5 people ranked Skarmory above Tyranitar.
2. Tier boundaries don't appear so clearly this year. I wonder if people have started to see many traditionally defined roles as blurred.
Files attached - refer to previous posts for details
S:
A1:
A2:
B1:
B2:
C1:
C2:
D:
E: 
Main things I noted data-wise are
1. Tyranitar and Skarmory stand in similar relative order to last year - 5 people ranked Skarmory above Tyranitar.
2. Tier boundaries don't appear so clearly this year. I wonder if people have started to see many traditionally defined roles as blurred.
Refer to previous posts on reading the following plots.
Files attached - refer to previous posts for details
Sableye will make it next VR, surely.spinblocker, gets Recover, gets Koff, psychic immune
Disclaimer: This VR is representative of my usage over my last 26 important ADV tour games (jimvitational + classic playoffs). While, in theory, usage does not have to fully align with viability, I believe in putting my money where my mouth is. As such, I use things I believe to be good and don't use things I don't believe to be good.
S
this is evidently going to seem crazy to most people. however... i used blissey in over half my games. it's pretty much the only real special wall in adv, and that type of defensive certainty is near mandatory when you are using things that invite special attacks. spikers, like skarmory and forretress, invite these types of special attacks, and as such i use blissey on roughly 99% of my spike balance teams. the only real exception would be superman, but even then blissey can fit on those (such as the missy 6 where bliss is the only mon taking spikes). the other thing that makes blissey so amazing is its set versatility, between twave toxic sing aroma cm counter you have a ton of options to choose from that help make it more of an active presence.
the best revenge killer in the tier by far. it can trap, with minimal or no chip: bliss, loom, cele, hera, rachi, mag, meta, tar, and other non-ou mons too. the main way to fight against dug is spikes, but dug spike spin teams are the overall most consistent in adv (they also feature blissey...) and dug offenses can often overwhelm spike teams by winning first. i also have to mention the lead dug trend that is absolutely real and makes people consider the lead meta in a different way. there is also the enabling of weather reset (tarless) teams that i love recently.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-798195?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786563?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786733?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786631
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-785570
spikes are more important than sand in terms of shaping adv, and skarm is the best spiker. the only reason i'm not putting it higher is my appreciation of other spikers, which is mostly forry but cloy smear have their uses i will talk about as well.
A+
gar only really fits on spike teams and dug teams, but 90% of my teams have 1 of those 2 elements and gar is amazing when you can fit it. i still believe that boom is the best no matter what team, but things like dbond, raindance, and modest full atker sets are super cool alongside boom too. it's just fast with great immunities and offensive versatility, so long as you don't over-rely on wisp it will be good.
the best mon at exploding, and enabler of offensive strategies. i like cb, mix, and agility (boom, not slide) a lot, cuz the other sets feel like they rely on mash accuracy more. i also like how these sets play into skarm teams, because cb and mix threaten skarm more directly, and agility means you can boom on a defensive piece cuz dug can't revenge you anymore. however, it is not a great physical wall / dd answer and that needs to be kept in mind.
i used to be a big suicune hater, but rain dance changed this for me. i mean, the modest non-rest sets are still amazingly threatening and defensively useful for faster paced teams, but rest alongside dugtrio and weather reset is extremely consistent. when you get the conditions right, and they aren't that hard to get right, then it's often either unkillable or sweeping outright. the right suicune set beats pretty much any team.
A
offensive all the way. modest surf and then honestly pick any 3 of tbolt ice spin recover and you're good. it cleans through offensive teams as well as defensive teams after some steps are taken (like using gar or dug to remove bliss). offmie is also beautiful in the sense that it actually scares skarm out directly so you can keep those spikes off. twave sets are valid but hinge more on the spinning and it requires very precise play vs tox skarm, gar, or suit tar.
gonna be real, i think eq is mid on claydol. psy spin boom are mandatory on pretty much all sets (run boom on mons that learn it), so that leaves eq vs the refresh/rest slot. frankly, if you want any sort of longevity then you need the status healing options and all the eq targets take spikes (or get dugged) anyway. if you happen to use a dol offense with like lax meta and no dug or spikes, then yea you should run eq. anyway, it soft checks pretty much the entire tier with boom and fits on a large variety of teams. it glues many mons, like rest cune, together with a larger team.
so, i have been enjoying forry more lately, but i still don't like the usual structures. i think that forry tar with no other spinner is mid and does not set the right conditions vs opposing spike teams. some ways i've been using forry that feel good are: physdef firetox to 1v1 skarm and other forry alongside umbreon, spike bug zapcannon boom + dol, and spike ghost spin rest + aroma.
versatile in sets and the teams it can fit on. cm and mixed sets are very threatening but usually my favorite is just toxic physdef. it 1v1s tar meta pert and the things that threaten it (fires, dug, gar) can't come in safely or repeatedly. it also takes spikes but wishtect in sand is amazing healing and fully stops things like aero.
A-
one of the best traders and most important mons in the tier for spikeless / dugless teams. whether you use mag, meta, or both to batter skarm, that will generally open up enough room for lax to do its thing. far from a perfect special wall but it, like claydol, soft checks about every mon in the tier yet does so with a much stronger boom.
okay, yes. tar is low on my vr, and i only used it 5/26 games. i did not get rampantly swept by lax, cune, or salac hera. so why do i use less tar than most? i think it's a jack-of-all-trades that does not excel at any one role. it is not a physical wall, special wall, boom trader, spinner, spiker, or spike immune. it can trap, but not as majorly as dug or mag. it can soft check zapdos while applying pressure on a blissey, but performing one role worsens its ability to do the other. it often needs spikes to get past its checks (say, waters), but using a slow pokemon with no defined defensive niche on a spike team is very hard to do. i'd often rather be using a spinner, dug, or gar on my spike teams. sand is nice in some games but hurts a lot of ur own mons too. i also feel like none of tars sets are that amazing, but my favorite right now is probably cb or suit. high ceiling pokemon but i prefer more defined roles from the mons i use.
i think pert is good and important, but my recent high suicune usage has led to less perts. it's probably the best solo physwall in the tier, but that's usually best on teams with spikes. if you're using pert spikes, you may end up weak to opposing spikes, and thus want spin. but if you're spinning, then you feel like you should use cune or milo with your dol to be better vs mixed attackers, so this leaves pert less room. pert is still valid on spinless defensive teams (usually with wish bliss for me), or on offenses. but also on offenses i prefer things like meta, regirock, mie, dol, offcune in place of where pert would usually go, and those other mons also don't need to pump to threaten skarm. timelessly important but not its time to shine right now.
not much to say, skarmforry are good and therefore magneton has use. i still only use modest magnet, and i guess the main thing i could say about magneton is that regirock is amazing with it. more on regi later tho.
it's bad at being a special wall, good at applying pressure. i don't use leech 3 cuz i don't really use cele tar skarm, but i like cele with mag a lot. leech pass sets or honestly just super (cm 3atk) is very good and checks things that magoff usually dislikes (pert and gar to name a couple).
B+
still really good vs some offenses but often feels like it relies on prediction / doesn't have enough time to create the autowin scenarios with spikes. its worse than dug at revenge killing cm'ers, and it's better at revenging birds but it feels like you either get walled by skarm + rock resist anyway, or you don't have enough juice to bypass dual rock res (pert meta or pert rachi type stuff) on offense. it will never be unviable but honestly not a huge fan rn.
the only spike immune physical wall, amazing vs things like rock spam. tox tect with either of hprock or flame is always reliable if your partners can deal with the gar type of mons which they usually can. id say the main issue with flygon is how it matches up vs meta mag combos and differing suicune sets. i also like cb gon as a way to hybridize a dug/aero of sorts that can hard into tar or meta, usually alongside defensive jirachi.
used to not be a fan, but now i am. i still don't rly use it as a skarm replacement but i like it as a spiker on more offensive teams alongside trappers. i had some success with cloy mag and cloy dug, as cloys boom is a good way to secure those traps. i still like going timid with it.
very solid. without dug i like investing in a ton of atk (like near max neutral) for boom ranges on blissey and the like, and with dug even weak booms are good positioning tools. it's incredible vs zapdug teams but also bliss-less spike teams as well. vs blissey you just trade and open up for something like offmie which is plenty good. seismic toss is a neat trick alongside leads that are zapdos weak so you can break the sub pass (i used this with cloy for example).
super deadly in the late games, imo a better function than leading with it most times. you can gain subs on a ton of mons (refpert, skarm if ur lastmon, non cm psy cele, cm bliss, def rachi, gar), and steamroll from there. i've been using it more on spike spin teams rather than offenses because early bliss chips dug or baits beatup -> then you can counter-trap and your kou is set to sweep in the late game. you can also ev it to live a single eq from meta mence dol etc.
B
amazing at what it does (walling mixed attackers), but i really only like to use it on v5 styles (bliss dug dol milo skarm for those unaware). it also unfortunately faces competiton from cune who is a lot better vs opposing milo cune and lax, but it is definitely more comfortable vs zard mence and the like.
honestly, not a big fan. i feel like on spikeless teams it needs dugtrio for progress but i often prefer mons like jynx and explosion users to guarantee my progress more. on spike teams it can make progress but i prefer blissey as a special wall and it also gives claydol opportunity to spin, unless ur using a ghost type but skarm zap ghost(gar) is already a lot of slots and really only fits on superman. if i use it, its with spdef evs and alongside a flygon most likely.
similar to zapdos, while being much worse vs eq and spikes it's often better vs opposing special attackers. i pretty much only use it with meta mie skarm but those teams are timeless.
my guy. i used it quite a bit in revival 1 and for this batch a couple more times in jimvitational. i honestly like hprock over slide for reliability, but besides that and boom there's a lot of flexibility. usually superpower is good vs lax tar, but twave counter etc are great picks as well. it amazingly checks every dragon dancer, lax, zard, mixmence, and does all this while threatening boom on the offensive end. this type of role compression is massive for teams that need help vs the aforementioned threats, like mag teams do. i mean, it's kind of like a tar with better defense and explosion... it just doesn't set sand. rock lax mag, rock lax dol, rock skarm spin, imo these are all good and honestly fairly consistent.
not a ton to say, just better at forcing kills for dug teams than zap usually is. perish (with sub cb dug) is my fav set for that reason, but within that nevermelt and modest are cool options for stuff like nuking opposing zap t1 or 2hkoing offensive tars.
strong dad energy, the hit n run king. for a spike team i really liked the forry umb combo to help vs skarm and gar without necessitating mag. for my own mag team i liked the lax cele combo to bait gar and have backup help vs special attackers. if you get it in the right position (weather reset ideally, skarm dealt with in some form, or just facing offense) it is truly unbeatable. super good at patching up physical weaknesses as well due to its crazy defense.
the best for trapping gar, synchro vs wisp pretty much kills it on the spot. wish tect is good, and honestly umb walls stuff like zap and mixmence pretty well too. charm is a cute option over toxic if you want to use it as a lax check. i would use it with a spinner and 1 of spikes / mag still.
something about this or baton pass still needs to be banned.
B-
i only used it once but i will probably use it more in the future. it's one of the most self sufficient attackers in the tier, not really mandating trapping or spikes even if they are cool bonuses. it's like a mixmence that's better vs skarmbliss and threatens cele rachi more directly. you really need tools vs cune/milo teams tho.
more sufficient than zard in that it kinda needs spikes, but it can be really potent due to its added strength. personally, though, i find its main appeal over zard to be its bulk and because of that i like rest moltres. rest status or rest sunnyday are really good on skarmbliss teams for fighting opposing fires and sitting around to beat opposing skarmbliss with no real time limit.
the best fighter, probably should be ou soon. reversal is cute in the back but it also has an amazing spread at lead. cb is fun and deadly if ur ready to click right.
has better typing as a dd'er than mence even if its slower and weaker. i don't really like dragon dancing much in general tho, often feels like too much has to be set up to get an otherwise mediocre mon going. still, it can definitely sweep some endgames with the right set and i respect that.
same ol same ol, ddpass is cheese but can win t1, while spikes sets are far more consistent. i like mixing it up with encore, dbond, dd boom, whirlwind, etc. really good vs stuff like skarm zap cune leads and can build huge early advantages.
same ol same ol, great vs claydol but meh vs offense (tho dbond is a nice touch in the lax mu). perish song is a good panic button but overall a lot less deadly than something like gar with wisp and boom. i feel like the missy classic with zapmolt can get overrun by offense pretty fast due to being slow paced with not much to change that. still, can definitely autowin some games vs spinner teams.
can be super good but also needs a lot in its favor. i liked it with cloy dug and 3 other boom mons (gar regi meta) to eliminate bliss cune stuff. rd boom gar is an amazing way to get ur kingdra a headstart without taking chip prior, shoutout to Mana for that.
super good physical wall, but needs specific support to not lose to skarm. that is, either run a magneton or do something like mu division don forry where donphan beats peck skarm and forry beats tox skarm, but this doesn't work as well vs pecktox combo and you still need to bypass the gengar. however, huge upside vs some physical offenses and garless teams than run peck skarm.
knock off mon that owns dol and lax (psychup for curse, but yea u can get crit). hits super well in its good mus but also extremely frail for its less good mus (mixed attackers, specoff in general) that it is hard to justify sometimes. still, a viable way to beat some top tiers mons that should be considered.
C+
alright, honestly not my cup of tea, but let me explain. dd has many of the same issues as dd gyara but kind of made worse by the 4x ice weak. mix is its overall best set but idk if intimidate really justifies it over zard which is a much better breaker. its a fast bird but really mid at checking cmers compared to dug aero zard etc. cb has a defined niche of being good vs fighting types and cune, but its still cbmence and can often thud super hard vs tss. im ranking it out of respect, but i genuinely used 0 mence in my last 26 games and i never felt the urge to build with it.
~
hope you enjoyed the read, until next time
How many people came here from the Jimothy Cool video?
Anyway, I love this post so much-- really gives insight into what makes a mon good or not from ABR's perspective. Even in the comments of the jimothy vid, so much speculation on an over-riding view of what makes a mon good or bad in here...
...my impression was that ABR's logic de-values Pokemon that have broadly good traits while lacking refinement into a specific niche (Tyranitar, Swampert, Zapdos, Salamence de-valued vs common sense), especially if the niches it has are done better by available specialists (Dugtrio > Ttar as a trapper). Not that this list doesn't value role compression-- it's cited in elevating certain mons (Regirock), but throughout this list being able to "soft check" or "temporarily handle" a broad range of situations is devalued compared to being able to handle specific situations near flawlessly, or at least execute a specific niche better than anything else. Also mons that have the best, direct ways to "force" progression/value acquisition. I get the impression that the philosophy is shunning a "good stuff" building mentality, and that instead by focusing on mons that can handle certain situations/lines of play very well or guarantee certain game states, ABR can string those lines and game states together to orchestrate a winning overall gameplan.
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An insightful take on much of what is considered "standard" in ADV. Even has some team structure recommendations for some mons. Definitly food for thought on many of the less utilized mons (Raiku, Cloyster, Regirock) but taking a meta analysis of ABR's VR based on their play style and preferred team structures might lead some back to what is already considered top tier.Disclaimer: This VR is representative of my usage over my last 26 important ADV tour games (jimvitational + classic playoffs). While, in theory, usage does not have to fully align with viability, I believe in putting my money where my mouth is. As such, I use things I believe to be good and don't use things I don't believe to be good.
S
this is evidently going to seem crazy to most people. however... i used blissey in over half my games. it's pretty much the only real special wall in adv, and that type of defensive certainty is near mandatory when you are using things that invite special attacks. spikers, like skarmory and forretress, invite these types of special attacks, and as such i use blissey on roughly 99% of my spike balance teams. the only real exception would be superman, but even then blissey can fit on those (such as the missy 6 where bliss is the only mon taking spikes). the other thing that makes blissey so amazing is its set versatility, between twave toxic sing aroma cm counter you have a ton of options to choose from that help make it more of an active presence.
the best revenge killer in the tier by far. it can trap, with minimal or no chip: bliss, loom, cele, hera, rachi, mag, meta, tar, and other non-ou mons too. the main way to fight against dug is spikes, but dug spike spin teams are the overall most consistent in adv (they also feature blissey...) and dug offenses can often overwhelm spike teams by winning first. i also have to mention the lead dug trend that is absolutely real and makes people consider the lead meta in a different way. there is also the enabling of weather reset (tarless) teams that i love recently.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-798195?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786563?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786733?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786631
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-785570
spikes are more important than sand in terms of shaping adv, and skarm is the best spiker. the only reason i'm not putting it higher is my appreciation of other spikers, which is mostly forry but cloy smear have their uses i will talk about as well.
A+
gar only really fits on spike teams and dug teams, but 90% of my teams have 1 of those 2 elements and gar is amazing when you can fit it. i still believe that boom is the best no matter what team, but things like dbond, raindance, and modest full atker sets are super cool alongside boom too. it's just fast with great immunities and offensive versatility, so long as you don't over-rely on wisp it will be good.
the best mon at exploding, and enabler of offensive strategies. i like cb, mix, and agility (boom, not slide) a lot, cuz the other sets feel like they rely on mash accuracy more. i also like how these sets play into skarm teams, because cb and mix threaten skarm more directly, and agility means you can boom on a defensive piece cuz dug can't revenge you anymore. however, it is not a great physical wall / dd answer and that needs to be kept in mind.
i used to be a big suicune hater, but rain dance changed this for me. i mean, the modest non-rest sets are still amazingly threatening and defensively useful for faster paced teams, but rest alongside dugtrio and weather reset is extremely consistent. when you get the conditions right, and they aren't that hard to get right, then it's often either unkillable or sweeping outright. the right suicune set beats pretty much any team.
A
offensive all the way. modest surf and then honestly pick any 3 of tbolt ice spin recover and you're good. it cleans through offensive teams as well as defensive teams after some steps are taken (like using gar or dug to remove bliss). offmie is also beautiful in the sense that it actually scares skarm out directly so you can keep those spikes off. twave sets are valid but hinge more on the spinning and it requires very precise play vs tox skarm, gar, or suit tar.
gonna be real, i think eq is mid on claydol. psy spin boom are mandatory on pretty much all sets (run boom on mons that learn it), so that leaves eq vs the refresh/rest slot. frankly, if you want any sort of longevity then you need the status healing options and all the eq targets take spikes (or get dugged) anyway. if you happen to use a dol offense with like lax meta and no dug or spikes, then yea you should run eq. anyway, it soft checks pretty much the entire tier with boom and fits on a large variety of teams. it glues many mons, like rest cune, together with a larger team.
so, i have been enjoying forry more lately, but i still don't like the usual structures. i think that forry tar with no other spinner is mid and does not set the right conditions vs opposing spike teams. some ways i've been using forry that feel good are: physdef firetox to 1v1 skarm and other forry alongside umbreon, spike bug zapcannon boom + dol, and spike ghost spin rest + aroma.
versatile in sets and the teams it can fit on. cm and mixed sets are very threatening but usually my favorite is just toxic physdef. it 1v1s tar meta pert and the things that threaten it (fires, dug, gar) can't come in safely or repeatedly. it also takes spikes but wishtect in sand is amazing healing and fully stops things like aero.
A-
one of the best traders and most important mons in the tier for spikeless / dugless teams. whether you use mag, meta, or both to batter skarm, that will generally open up enough room for lax to do its thing. far from a perfect special wall but it, like claydol, soft checks about every mon in the tier yet does so with a much stronger boom.
okay, yes. tar is low on my vr, and i only used it 5/26 games. i did not get rampantly swept by lax, cune, or salac hera. so why do i use less tar than most? i think it's a jack-of-all-trades that does not excel at any one role. it is not a physical wall, special wall, boom trader, spinner, spiker, or spike immune. it can trap, but not as majorly as dug or mag. it can soft check zapdos while applying pressure on a blissey, but performing one role worsens its ability to do the other. it often needs spikes to get past its checks (say, waters), but using a slow pokemon with no defined defensive niche on a spike team is very hard to do. i'd often rather be using a spinner, dug, or gar on my spike teams. sand is nice in some games but hurts a lot of ur own mons too. i also feel like none of tars sets are that amazing, but my favorite right now is probably cb or suit. high ceiling pokemon but i prefer more defined roles from the mons i use.
i think pert is good and important, but my recent high suicune usage has led to less perts. it's probably the best solo physwall in the tier, but that's usually best on teams with spikes. if you're using pert spikes, you may end up weak to opposing spikes, and thus want spin. but if you're spinning, then you feel like you should use cune or milo with your dol to be better vs mixed attackers, so this leaves pert less room. pert is still valid on spinless defensive teams (usually with wish bliss for me), or on offenses. but also on offenses i prefer things like meta, regirock, mie, dol, offcune in place of where pert would usually go, and those other mons also don't need to pump to threaten skarm. timelessly important but not its time to shine right now.
not much to say, skarmforry are good and therefore magneton has use. i still only use modest magnet, and i guess the main thing i could say about magneton is that regirock is amazing with it. more on regi later tho.
it's bad at being a special wall, good at applying pressure. i don't use leech 3 cuz i don't really use cele tar skarm, but i like cele with mag a lot. leech pass sets or honestly just super (cm 3atk) is very good and checks things that magoff usually dislikes (pert and gar to name a couple).
B+
still really good vs some offenses but often feels like it relies on prediction / doesn't have enough time to create the autowin scenarios with spikes. its worse than dug at revenge killing cm'ers, and it's better at revenging birds but it feels like you either get walled by skarm + rock resist anyway, or you don't have enough juice to bypass dual rock res (pert meta or pert rachi type stuff) on offense. it will never be unviable but honestly not a huge fan rn.
the only spike immune physical wall, amazing vs things like rock spam. tox tect with either of hprock or flame is always reliable if your partners can deal with the gar type of mons which they usually can. id say the main issue with flygon is how it matches up vs meta mag combos and differing suicune sets. i also like cb gon as a way to hybridize a dug/aero of sorts that can hard into tar or meta, usually alongside defensive jirachi.
used to not be a fan, but now i am. i still don't rly use it as a skarm replacement but i like it as a spiker on more offensive teams alongside trappers. i had some success with cloy mag and cloy dug, as cloys boom is a good way to secure those traps. i still like going timid with it.
very solid. without dug i like investing in a ton of atk (like near max neutral) for boom ranges on blissey and the like, and with dug even weak booms are good positioning tools. it's incredible vs zapdug teams but also bliss-less spike teams as well. vs blissey you just trade and open up for something like offmie which is plenty good. seismic toss is a neat trick alongside leads that are zapdos weak so you can break the sub pass (i used this with cloy for example).
super deadly in the late games, imo a better function than leading with it most times. you can gain subs on a ton of mons (refpert, skarm if ur lastmon, non cm psy cele, cm bliss, def rachi, gar), and steamroll from there. i've been using it more on spike spin teams rather than offenses because early bliss chips dug or baits beatup -> then you can counter-trap and your kou is set to sweep in the late game. you can also ev it to live a single eq from meta mence dol etc.
B
amazing at what it does (walling mixed attackers), but i really only like to use it on v5 styles (bliss dug dol milo skarm for those unaware). it also unfortunately faces competiton from cune who is a lot better vs opposing milo cune and lax, but it is definitely more comfortable vs zard mence and the like.
honestly, not a big fan. i feel like on spikeless teams it needs dugtrio for progress but i often prefer mons like jynx and explosion users to guarantee my progress more. on spike teams it can make progress but i prefer blissey as a special wall and it also gives claydol opportunity to spin, unless ur using a ghost type but skarm zap ghost(gar) is already a lot of slots and really only fits on superman. if i use it, its with spdef evs and alongside a flygon most likely.
similar to zapdos, while being much worse vs eq and spikes it's often better vs opposing special attackers. i pretty much only use it with meta mie skarm but those teams are timeless.
my guy. i used it quite a bit in revival 1 and for this batch a couple more times in jimvitational. i honestly like hprock over slide for reliability, but besides that and boom there's a lot of flexibility. usually superpower is good vs lax tar, but twave counter etc are great picks as well. it amazingly checks every dragon dancer, lax, zard, mixmence, and does all this while threatening boom on the offensive end. this type of role compression is massive for teams that need help vs the aforementioned threats, like mag teams do. i mean, it's kind of like a tar with better defense and explosion... it just doesn't set sand. rock lax mag, rock lax dol, rock skarm spin, imo these are all good and honestly fairly consistent.
not a ton to say, just better at forcing kills for dug teams than zap usually is. perish (with sub cb dug) is my fav set for that reason, but within that nevermelt and modest are cool options for stuff like nuking opposing zap t1 or 2hkoing offensive tars.
strong dad energy, the hit n run king. for a spike team i really liked the forry umb combo to help vs skarm and gar without necessitating mag. for my own mag team i liked the lax cele combo to bait gar and have backup help vs special attackers. if you get it in the right position (weather reset ideally, skarm dealt with in some form, or just facing offense) it is truly unbeatable. super good at patching up physical weaknesses as well due to its crazy defense.
the best for trapping gar, synchro vs wisp pretty much kills it on the spot. wish tect is good, and honestly umb walls stuff like zap and mixmence pretty well too. charm is a cute option over toxic if you want to use it as a lax check. i would use it with a spinner and 1 of spikes / mag still.
something about this or baton pass still needs to be banned.
B-
i only used it once but i will probably use it more in the future. it's one of the most self sufficient attackers in the tier, not really mandating trapping or spikes even if they are cool bonuses. it's like a mixmence that's better vs skarmbliss and threatens cele rachi more directly. you really need tools vs cune/milo teams tho.
more sufficient than zard in that it kinda needs spikes, but it can be really potent due to its added strength. personally, though, i find its main appeal over zard to be its bulk and because of that i like rest moltres. rest status or rest sunnyday are really good on skarmbliss teams for fighting opposing fires and sitting around to beat opposing skarmbliss with no real time limit.
the best fighter, probably should be ou soon. reversal is cute in the back but it also has an amazing spread at lead. cb is fun and deadly if ur ready to click right.
has better typing as a dd'er than mence even if its slower and weaker. i don't really like dragon dancing much in general tho, often feels like too much has to be set up to get an otherwise mediocre mon going. still, it can definitely sweep some endgames with the right set and i respect that.
same ol same ol, ddpass is cheese but can win t1, while spikes sets are far more consistent. i like mixing it up with encore, dbond, dd boom, whirlwind, etc. really good vs stuff like skarm zap cune leads and can build huge early advantages.
same ol same ol, great vs claydol but meh vs offense (tho dbond is a nice touch in the lax mu). perish song is a good panic button but overall a lot less deadly than something like gar with wisp and boom. i feel like the missy classic with zapmolt can get overrun by offense pretty fast due to being slow paced with not much to change that. still, can definitely autowin some games vs spinner teams.
can be super good but also needs a lot in its favor. i liked it with cloy dug and 3 other boom mons (gar regi meta) to eliminate bliss cune stuff. rd boom gar is an amazing way to get ur kingdra a headstart without taking chip prior, shoutout to Mana for that.
super good physical wall, but needs specific support to not lose to skarm. that is, either run a magneton or do something like mu division don forry where donphan beats peck skarm and forry beats tox skarm, but this doesn't work as well vs pecktox combo and you still need to bypass the gengar. however, huge upside vs some physical offenses and garless teams than run peck skarm.
knock off mon that owns dol and lax (psychup for curse, but yea u can get crit). hits super well in its good mus but also extremely frail for its less good mus (mixed attackers, specoff in general) that it is hard to justify sometimes. still, a viable way to beat some top tiers mons that should be considered.
C+
alright, honestly not my cup of tea, but let me explain. dd has many of the same issues as dd gyara but kind of made worse by the 4x ice weak. mix is its overall best set but idk if intimidate really justifies it over zard which is a much better breaker. its a fast bird but really mid at checking cmers compared to dug aero zard etc. cb has a defined niche of being good vs fighting types and cune, but its still cbmence and can often thud super hard vs tss. im ranking it out of respect, but i genuinely used 0 mence in my last 26 games and i never felt the urge to build with it.
~
hope you enjoyed the read, until next time
Example: bliss is excellent when it gets chip heal so ttar's sand is a good way to help beat bliss long term, same goes for cuine, salac hera etc (which abr recognised in his rankings. If spikes balance players start to trend towards more "ABR style" teams, offense teams have ttar as a tool to help against these mons.
Of course this is meta analysis within a vaccum of pitting 2 mons against each other without considering the other 5 mons on either side. Ttar helps against bliss but (as ABR stated many times in their rankings) Dug can handle ttar and clear weather.
Not sure if the current VR rankings will shift much with this fresh perspective but time will tell (and possibly make this reply look very silly).
Want to give a shootout to my favorite Mon in the Tier, Gyarados. I actually happened upon it when I was trying to find a Physical Water (I forget why). My thoughts immediately went to Poliwrath, but after that idea was quickly terminated, I went to Dos.
I don't see Gyarados as a Sweeper. It's not strong or fast enough. But in an early/midgame role, it is almost perfect. Here are the Mons, off the top of my head, it can pressure: Suicune, Celebi, NonTox/RS Swampert, Milotic (with Taunt)... I know there's not a lot that immediately come to mind (Blissey being most notable), but just having an immediate and obvious answer to Suicune is a quick ladder rise.
And then there's what it draws in. I like to use it with T-Wave. Because the Mons it draws in are usually ended by this status. Most commonly Zapdos, but also Gengar, Aerodactyl, and Jolteon. Even in matches where it has been crippled by burn, it can spread paralysis which can always be played around. Especially because it can DD, and it is often paired with another DDer.
Last Thoughts: There are a lot of Powerful Waters. There are few that can answer the threat as consistently as Dos. Fight Water w/ Water.
I don't see Gyarados as a Sweeper. It's not strong or fast enough. But in an early/midgame role, it is almost perfect. Here are the Mons, off the top of my head, it can pressure: Suicune, Celebi, NonTox/RS Swampert, Milotic (with Taunt)... I know there's not a lot that immediately come to mind (Blissey being most notable), but just having an immediate and obvious answer to Suicune is a quick ladder rise.
And then there's what it draws in. I like to use it with T-Wave. Because the Mons it draws in are usually ended by this status. Most commonly Zapdos, but also Gengar, Aerodactyl, and Jolteon. Even in matches where it has been crippled by burn, it can spread paralysis which can always be played around. Especially because it can DD, and it is often paired with another DDer.
Last Thoughts: There are a lot of Powerful Waters. There are few that can answer the threat as consistently as Dos. Fight Water w/ Water.
Hello everyone, after five years of competitive pokemon and almost two of gen3 OU I have finally decided to make an account to post my VR.
I am not by any means the greatest player ever but I do want to share my opinions nevertheless. Also, excuse any grammatical mistakes as english isn't my first language. So, intro aside, I'll get to the rankings.
============ TIER LIST ============
====== EXPLANATIONS PART 1 ======
-THE TOP
1. Tyranitar
So, it seems a few very good players lately have taken to saying that Ttar isn't the number one mon. Personally, I just think it's a mix of them being tired of Tyranitar and having gotten so good at dealing with it they don't really realize how good it is anymore. Sand IS the meta and without it so much stuff gets way harder to deal with (Snorlax, Suicune, Blissey, even Zapdos, etc.). Together with sand, Ttar also brings good stats and an absurd moveset that allows it to do tons of useful things for your team. Dd Ttar (both fast and bulky), Choice Band, BKC Tar, Mixed, Pursuit, lesser seen stuff like subpunch (both physical and crunch fire blast) are all good sets that can really help your team out and have tons of options to play around with. Ttar helps check lots of strong stuff and without him the tier would be completly different. The crown stays on the kings head.
2. Skarmory
Spikes are meta defining in gen3 OU for just how good they are at chipping everything down for your offensive mons or your big stally walls/setuppers. It's only natural then to put at number two the best spiker in the tier. Skarm isn't just the spikes machine tho, it's also an important physical wall that helps keep strong attackers in check, it's great at spreading toxic, it can beat Breloom and Heracross with drill peck, it can deny enemy spikes with taunt and it has other cool options like thief for disruption. It is also the king of chip heal thanks to being immune to spikes, sand and toxic, which are normally great ways to punish walls. Biggest issue with Skarm tho is that it's way easier to trap with Magneton than Ttar is to trap with Dugtrio and it can be too passive in certain matchups. My biggest gripe with it for example is how all it can do to Metagross is spiking and roaring, which means the physical steel type can often break the steel resistant physical wall. Due to this passivity and also the fact that Skarm is actually replaceable on a team (thanks to Forretress and kind of Cloyster) I've never agreed with the sentiment of it being number one.
3. Blissey
One of the few hot takes I have. Bliss is underrated as all hell by too many people. Every other special wall isn't actually perfect as a special wall, but not Blissey. She can deal with any special attacker aside for sometimes taunt wisp Gengar, subcm Jirachi and of course...the blue dog. But even then it still has ways to make those 1v1s a bit better. This is mostly due to her huge movepool, with great options like seismic toss, tbolt, icebeam, fire blast, twave, toxic, wish, aromatherapy (or I guess heal bell too, if you like the normal type more), counter, calm mind. It's the only catch all answer to special threats. Gen3 OU without Blissey is special attacker hell.
-AMAZING
4. Metagross
An offensive monster with a very strong exsplosion and the ability to just say "Screw you" to its checks with meteor mash attack raises. It can be inconsistent due to accuracy but when it hits it hurts. It also helps vs Ttar and Aero, tho it isn't great at walling them due to the ground weakness. Agility sets are really scary sweepers and the potential of trading with boom keeps your opponent on their toes. It's for sure a great enabler of offensive teams too and just generally helps with wall breaking.
5. Swampert
Honestly, I've been thinking of putting pert over metagross lately. I value a lot consistent rock resists in this meta and Swampert is him. The vast majority of my teams feature it as it is just such a good way to deal with Ttar and Aero while also helping out a ton against Metagross. It doesn't have as vast a movepool as other top tier mons but it doesn't need anything fancy to do it's job game in and game out. Also, by no means is its movepool shallow, stuff like refresh and endevour allows it to play quite differently by leaning more on defense or offense.
6. Zapdos
Such a good offensive mon that applies a lot of pressure with its strong tbolts. Its defensive set is also really usefull, with or without sleep talk, and can feel hard to kill sometimes. Being shackled to rest hurts it a lot tho. The offensive set is just a nice and simple way to deal good and consistent damage and abuse spikes. I should also note how many times this bad boy has saved me from Suicune.
7. Gengar
Spin blocking is huge and its never ending movepool makes Gengar a very customizable and solid option for any type of spikes teams. It can get pursuit trapped but eving to survive it isn't that hard so this isn't a huge knock to it. Of course tho I should point out its lack of good stab moves which leaves it feeling a bit weak sometimes. But with such options as the rare will o wisp, taunt, explosion, destiny bond and more it really doesn't matter that both of its stabs are physical.
8. Salamence
Salamence is my bro. If nobody's got me, I know Salamence's got me. Intimidate is great and makes dealing with fighting types way easier, while my man's great offensive move pool allows him to pull off a great mixed set that is really good at abusing spikes. Having dragon dance and good physical moves also allows Mence to be a great set up sweeper. Salamence helps and gives consistency against a lot of teams and mons, especially fighting types as said before.
9. Suicune
This thing is dumb. It sets up easily thanks to its huge defenses and hp and then it just rolls through the opponent. You really can't give any time to Suicune or it will destroy you easily. Thankfully, being forced to use only rest for healing and it getting hit by both spikes and sand stop it from being too much to handle, but sometimes it can still feel cheesy with just how many one mon stands it can pull of.
-GREAT
10. Dugtrio
This thing is dumb 2. Dug is easily the best revenge killer in the meta thanks to being able to deny switching. So much can be trapped by it after minimal or no chip (Tyranitar, Blissey, Metagross, Jirachi, Celebi, Heracross, Breloom...) and it can be really hard to play around. It also single handendly enables virgin5 and especially special offense, which without it would struggle against a bunch of mons they really want gone. There's more then enough reason to put Dug futher up in the list honestly, but I personally feel right where it sits right now.
11. Jirachi
The king of hax himself. Jira works very well as a setup sweeper with calm mind, a wish user and something inbetween with both wish and calm mind. My personal favourite sets are fire punch + tox + wish, for its great utility and blanking of Aero while also helping with other choice banders, and subcm, for being a cm setupper who can beat Blissey. A generally very useful mon that ties a bunch of spikes teams and spec off teams together. It can get stupid tho with serene grace hax, like have fun switching in your Ttar to eq when my fire punch decides to burn you.
12. Celebi
Celebi isn't a great special wall honestly because of it being weak to ice and fire type attacks, but it still helps out against a bunch of special attackers. Leech seed is also a very useful and rare option that annoys even its checks, while cm and swords dance make it a great baton passer and even a good set up sweeper on its own right. Celebi is a nice alternative to Bliss on offensive teams that can't afford Blisseys passivity while still being rather bulky and having natural cure, leech seed and recover to keep itself alive. Due to it not doing a great job at walling all special attackers and also its propensity to either get worn down easily if it doesn't have recover or become fodder for Skarm if it doesn't have hp fire it doesn't feel worthy of being ranked any higher. It does hold one of my favourite out of the pokemon nicknames I've come up with tho.
13. Aerodactyl
I used to love Aero more but recently it has begun failing me as it really tuds into any team that holds multiple rock resists. God help you if those resists are wish rachi and def pert. It also needs a lot of help to beat Skarm which can be frustrating at times. This doesn't change the fact tho that Aero's great speed allows it to clean up late game like few things can, not to mention its super power to flinch a victory out of thin air. It is still a great mon, but I've come to use it less as the upsides don't always feel worth it. Still, you should always be prepared for it.
14. Claydol
The best spinner in the meta as it can 1v1 Gengar well enough. Don't personally love it tho because it isn't THAT great against Gengar and it's a pretty bad rock resist. It deals little to Ttar for having a super effective stab earthquake and takes too much from hp bug. Due to it's typing tho most Claydol teams won't have Swampert and much less so Flygon, so often times using Claydol teams feels like praying that DD Ttar doesn't flinch you once or your entire game plan is gone. Its utility in getting rid of spikes reliably is still awesome and I appreciate its capability to soft check the electric types when it's healthy.
15. Starmie
Claydoll, but fast and frail. That's about how I feel on Starmie. It's a great mon but it can feel hard to get the most out of it sometimes. The offensive set gets worn down quickly by the spikes it needs to spin while the defensive set is not nearly as defensive as it seems and can't get rid of Gengar as easily, thus making spining take longer. Its high speed and great offensive movepool do allow it tho to act as a great Aero-esque late game cleaner. If you take it less as the spin guy and more as just an offensive beast who also happens to have the great utility of spin it often becomes more reliable.
-GOOD
16. Moltres
I really like Moltres. It's a good offensive threat that abuses spikes well and spams will o wisp. It does struggle a lot against Blissey, Suicune and Milotic tho which leaves it feeling pretty weak sometimes. Roar and Wisp help offset that but you do for sure need a bunch of help from team mates to get the most out of it. I wouldn't personally use it on spikeless teams, but I guess sunny day on a spec off does seem pretty fun.
17. Magneton
It traps the Skarm and the Forre. They good so Mag good too. Snorlax like very much. Not a super complex mon to say a ton about but a very important one on physical offense.
18. Forretress
Used to spam it a lot but I have since grown more distant. It is a very nice pokemon who compresses the roles of spiker and spinner but it needs pursuit support and can often leave games vs Gengar feeling like an uphill battle. Offensive spikes teams with Gengar can really just suck as Gengar is often not going to go down to the first pursuit, leading to mind games and the risk of spikes staying up too long. If played well tho it has the potential to really screw with spikes squad, and of course with no Gengar it is really solid.
19. Charizard
The more I use it the more I like it. A good special attacker that can deal with the opponent without too much support. I should note tho that beat up doesn't beat twave Bliss unless you catch her on the switch, which can really suck, and focus punch is a bit weird against Blissey. It also does nothing at all to Suicune and Milotic aside for giving them free turns, because of this it can sometimes feel match up reliant which isn't great.
20. Flygon
The best alternative to Swampert as a pure rock resist. Levitate is awesome and so is base 100 speed but its lower than Pert stats in everything else leave much to be desired. You also need to choose wheter to hit flying types hard with rockslide and be walled forever by Skarm or run fire blast to help there but become weaker against the flyers if they can heal off your toxic. Offensive Flygon also sucks pretty hard and I don't like it.
21. Heracross
This guy either saves the game on his own or misses three mega horns and dies, no inbetween. It can end games on the spot and it does really hurt big stall but it needs a bunch of support if it wants to get anywhere. I want to like it more but it just isn't consistent enough. Also, don't love its Dug weakness.
22. Breloom
Spore carries Breloom hard. It isn't fast nor bulky and its ability is just fine so it usually doesn't do much outside of sporing. It also hates Gengar, Salamence and Gyarados and that makes it hard to justify it sometimes. If given the right support tho this thing can be really annoying and wall break nicely for team members in the back...if Dug doesn't ruin your fun first.
-OKAY
23. Snorlax
Yes, I am not a Snorlax believer. Sand, spikes, metagross, skarmory and Ttar being things you hate is really bad in this meta and forces a lot of support to allow Lax to do anything. Its huge self destruct, great special bulk and potential to snowball if given help is great and does make it a near mandatory option on physical offense. I just don't think having to rely on so much outside help is a good thing tho.
24. Milotic
I may be too harsh on Milo, but after spending a lot of time with her I just can't put her any higher. Milo is hard to kill and a good wall but it's just so passive and can be really exploited. Not to mention how many times it has to pray that Aero or DD Ttar don't flinch/crit her. Hypnosis on sd pass teams is cool but hardly the most reliable thing ever. Milo can really screw you over if you aren't ready but her passiveness will always leave her feeling as a more specific bulky water than Suicune and his calm mind.
25. Jolteon
Ah yes, the Zapdos check that doesn't like twave nor toxic. This guy is cool with that Aero level speed but it duds into most special walls, doesn't hit insanely hard, gets chipped down quick by spikes and is frail. Thus it ends up feeling like a worse Zapdos most of the time. It does for sure have its place in the meta as a faster Zap alternative that is a bit better into enemy Zap thanks to volt absorb, but it isn't great.
26. Gyarados
Worse DD Salamence is still a DD Salamence. Gyarados' unique typing and access to cool options like Twave and taunt help it stand out from Salamence by making it better in certain match ups, like against Swampert and Suicune. Its way lower speed and worse physical atk coupled with the weird exsclusion of rock slide from its movepool can sometimes make it feel like you are just using a worse Salamence. It also really needs Mag support in most cases or it will get beat by Skarm. Hp Rock + Taunt can work to deal with Skarm if you're magless, but then you have no stab and hit for little damage other stuff. And if you use hp flying with taunt you can't beat Zapdos and Aerodactyl.
27. Medicham
A fun pokemon to use who can deal lots of damage but requires good reads and isn't as fast as something this frail should be. It dies quick but if played right it will leave its mark on the enemy team. I believe it is OU worthy.
28. Cloyster
Cloyster looks so good on paper but bad spdef, meh hp and being hit by sand, spikes and toxic makes it feel worse than Skarm even on offensive teams. Access to boom, spin and not being Mag trapped do give it a reason to exist on offensive spikes teams. It's also better vs Pert than Skarm...and in theory vs Suicune too but a modest +1 Suicune has a roll to 2hko with even just surf.
29. Hariyama
The last mon I believe to deserve an OU rating. It is very specific but the one and only knock off is so stupid of a move that it gives it a reason to exist. It's also not an awful rock resist and it has some nice options like whirlwind while also having two good abilities in guts and thick fat.
====== EXPLANATIONS PART 2 ======
From this point foward every mon I will talk about doesn't deserve to be OU ranked but does have uses in the meta, even if they are very niche.
-NICHE
30. Jynx
Jynx is a nice lead on special offense teams thanks to sleep move and perish trapping making it easier to eliminate threats like Tyranitar and Blissey. Unfortunately that's the only style she really fits on and to me that's a problem as in my eyes special offense is a very match up fishy style that isn't a great idea to spam. When the time calls for spec off tho Jynx can help out in the lead slot.
31. Raikou
Another mon who is very good but mostly works with spec off. It being really Dug weak also sucks as you either have to dedicate a team slot to Porygon2 or you have to come to terms with your fast setup sweeper being easy to revenge kill. With the due support it does pose quite a threat with its great 115 base speed and calm mind.
32. Smeargle
A great lead on hyper offense and the mon with the single most costumizable move set, but it only works on HO which isn't a super reliable team style this gen. I might actually be raking it a bit too high but Smeargle is just such a fun and creative mon and does really help out on HO.
33. Porygon2
Dug b'gone. That's about it. Yeah copying stuff like levitate, volt absorb and natural cure with trace is really nice and its access to tbolt, icebeam, twave, toxic and recover is awesome but if it couldn't trap Dug for Dug weak teams it would just be a worse bulky normal type than Bliss and Snorlax. Raikou's best friend in other words.
34. Kingdra
Another guy that only really works on spec off with Dug support. Noticing a pattern? Yeah I don't love this team style but I do have respect for it and do think the UUBL mons that often appear on spec off are genuine parts of the meta, even if niche. Kingdra itself is a good late game cleaner thanks to swift swim and is also nice at weather clearing for Suicune, but if you don't kill Bliss or have to fight a lax or, god forbid, Milotic or Suicune it will do just about nothing all game.
35. Venusaur
Okay okay, maybe it's a bit high but after playing a bunch on ladder with a team given to me by pkLeech, which even helped me get to my peak of 1813, I actually have a lot of love for Venu. It isn't great by any means and usually Breloom and Celebi will do more for you but Venusaur's unique set of traits (it being much bulkier and even faster than Breloom but having access to a sleep move unlike Celebi) can make it a fun option on some offensive teams.
36. Regice
This sure is a special wall. It gets worn down really quickly and can't afford to use rest so its hp is a finite resource, but while it sticks around it does really annoy special attackers while turning them into good opportunities to spam ice beam. Tbolt is great coverage and twave is nice utility plus being able to boom Bliss is really nice but getting chipped down easily, having a weaker boom than even Gengar and an awful match up into Metagross keep Regice pretty low for me.
37. Regirock
Do you want Ttar on your mag team but you don't want sand due to your Suicune and Snorlax hating it? Here's Ttar's cheap copy that has way fewer options but does get boom and doesn't set up sand. It's cool on the teams it works on but 99% of the times Ttar will do more for you.
38. Registeel
So annoying to kill but really passive. It has essentially the same issues as Milotic but it only has rest and leftys (thanks to its sand immunity) to heal. Super specific and usually outclassed by Metagross, but it can be annoying thanks to its huge bulk.
39. Slaking
This guy is here because I'm friends with Blues. That's it. I never use it unless Blues is forcing me. It is really cool but only if you're ready to do tons of great reads...and get clapped by the move protect. Però molto rispetto per Popo comunque. 
friens
40. Misdreavus
Missy works on like one super man team but she works really well there. More of an ABR special than a real meta threath but she can put in work.
41. Houndoom
With 110 spa atk and stab on pursuit this should be the best way to get rid of Gengar but getting easily trapped by Dug and having mediocre stats outside of its spa atk make it hard to justify. I may be too nice on it.
42. Vaporeon
It can sometimes work as a salac pass lead on hyper offense but only sometimes. Blanking mono Suicune (and even toxic Milo thanks to sub) is neat but it doesn't make up for Vaporeon's meh stats. It isn't very compatible with the meta if you will...okay I'll see myself out.
43.
Dusclops
Can sometimes be worth it on stall as a spin blocker that tanks a lot of hits and can beat Snorlax with imprison sets. The best use for it in my opinion is to impede virgin5 from getting 6-0'd by a curse rest Snorlax. Useless everywhere else and even in stall there's other options...and stall itself isn't super popular. Unless people actually believe ABR's recent VR lol.
-VERY NICHE
44. Glalie
It's a worse Smearlge that beats Salamence. Hyper specific but it can work as an agro spikes setter on HO.
45. Umbreon
I don't see the hype for this guy. It pursuits but doesn't even do that much to Gengar, it wishes but it's way worse than Jira. It's so absurdly passive and can end up being a sitting duck really easily.
46. Weezing
It can be an alright answer to fighting types on super man stall, which is normally not great against the likes of Heracross. It doesn't do much anywhere else. Probably better to use Gengar on any other team.
47. Blaziken
Beating Tyranitar, Blissey, Skarmory and Metagross while having options for Pert, Zap and Mence should make this mon great...but it just doesn't have stats. A real shame, with more speed it could really have been something great. Almost feels like it should have an ability that gives it speed, that would be pretty cool and totally wouldn't make it op for several gens in a row.
48.
Articuno
Like Weezing but it beats special attackers and is way more passive. Only use it on specific super man teams and then remember why DD Ttar and Aero are good pokemon.
49. Donphan
It can actually be a great rock resist but man it needs so much support. It hates skarm, it hates ghost types and it only has rest for self healing. Nice stats, typing and rapid spin give it a reason to exist.
50. Marowak
In a perfect world speed pass is banned and Marowak is jobless. Not the world we live in.
51. Armaldo
If it could use both knock off and rapid spin together it would actually be really cool, but it can't. The utility options it has are really cool but there's many better spinners and Hariyama is usually a better knock off user. Armaldo does have a better mu into Snorlax which can be nice but Hariyama isn't awful into Lax either, it is a fighting type after all.
====== EXPLANATIONS PART 3 ======
52. Ninjask
This...thing. My hottest take is that speed pass itself is a bad part of the meta that should be banned. The speed tiers being rather set in stone is a fun part of this meta that speed pass ruins. Ninjask teams are the worst offenders when it comes to this due to being huge mu fishes that insta win or lose based on match up. I hate it and hope it gets banned. Just yesterday I won a game against Ninjask on ladder and I used none of my braincells. Just a braindead mon to use and play against.
(The game in question https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2242529425 )
(https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2247782561 I now feel compelled, as of 20/11/2024, to add this game. On the ADVrevival discord I accidently started a whole conversation on sand attack and Ninjask by posting this and talking smack about these style and I think it works as another example of this style just being luck based and not competitive)
=============================
This concludes my VR. My thoughts are of course bound to change, mostly on the mons I wouldn't rank OU as the rankings there aren't perfect and there's various mons that I could see ranking higher or lower, but for now this should work to give my general feelings on the meta. I've really enjoyed gen3 OU even tho I have had some ups and downs with it and I plan on playing it for a while still. I've also tried out Gen3 Ubers, PU and ZU while they had ROA spotlights and enjoyed the former a lot so maybe one day I'll play Ubers enough to make another VR like this for it. Hope that what I had to say interested you and also BluesEnergy00 is actually a scam and totally washed L + Ratio + Meglio il nord xoxoxo.
-Leo
I am not by any means the greatest player ever but I do want to share my opinions nevertheless. Also, excuse any grammatical mistakes as english isn't my first language. So, intro aside, I'll get to the rankings.
============ TIER LIST ============
====== EXPLANATIONS PART 1 ======
-THE TOP
1.
TyranitarSo, it seems a few very good players lately have taken to saying that Ttar isn't the number one mon. Personally, I just think it's a mix of them being tired of Tyranitar and having gotten so good at dealing with it they don't really realize how good it is anymore. Sand IS the meta and without it so much stuff gets way harder to deal with (Snorlax, Suicune, Blissey, even Zapdos, etc.). Together with sand, Ttar also brings good stats and an absurd moveset that allows it to do tons of useful things for your team. Dd Ttar (both fast and bulky), Choice Band, BKC Tar, Mixed, Pursuit, lesser seen stuff like subpunch (both physical and crunch fire blast) are all good sets that can really help your team out and have tons of options to play around with. Ttar helps check lots of strong stuff and without him the tier would be completly different. The crown stays on the kings head.
2.
SkarmorySpikes are meta defining in gen3 OU for just how good they are at chipping everything down for your offensive mons or your big stally walls/setuppers. It's only natural then to put at number two the best spiker in the tier. Skarm isn't just the spikes machine tho, it's also an important physical wall that helps keep strong attackers in check, it's great at spreading toxic, it can beat Breloom and Heracross with drill peck, it can deny enemy spikes with taunt and it has other cool options like thief for disruption. It is also the king of chip heal thanks to being immune to spikes, sand and toxic, which are normally great ways to punish walls. Biggest issue with Skarm tho is that it's way easier to trap with Magneton than Ttar is to trap with Dugtrio and it can be too passive in certain matchups. My biggest gripe with it for example is how all it can do to Metagross is spiking and roaring, which means the physical steel type can often break the steel resistant physical wall. Due to this passivity and also the fact that Skarm is actually replaceable on a team (thanks to Forretress and kind of Cloyster) I've never agreed with the sentiment of it being number one.
3.
BlisseyOne of the few hot takes I have. Bliss is underrated as all hell by too many people. Every other special wall isn't actually perfect as a special wall, but not Blissey. She can deal with any special attacker aside for sometimes taunt wisp Gengar, subcm Jirachi and of course...the blue dog. But even then it still has ways to make those 1v1s a bit better. This is mostly due to her huge movepool, with great options like seismic toss, tbolt, icebeam, fire blast, twave, toxic, wish, aromatherapy (or I guess heal bell too, if you like the normal type more), counter, calm mind. It's the only catch all answer to special threats. Gen3 OU without Blissey is special attacker hell.
-AMAZING
4.
MetagrossAn offensive monster with a very strong exsplosion and the ability to just say "Screw you" to its checks with meteor mash attack raises. It can be inconsistent due to accuracy but when it hits it hurts. It also helps vs Ttar and Aero, tho it isn't great at walling them due to the ground weakness. Agility sets are really scary sweepers and the potential of trading with boom keeps your opponent on their toes. It's for sure a great enabler of offensive teams too and just generally helps with wall breaking.
5.
SwampertHonestly, I've been thinking of putting pert over metagross lately. I value a lot consistent rock resists in this meta and Swampert is him. The vast majority of my teams feature it as it is just such a good way to deal with Ttar and Aero while also helping out a ton against Metagross. It doesn't have as vast a movepool as other top tier mons but it doesn't need anything fancy to do it's job game in and game out. Also, by no means is its movepool shallow, stuff like refresh and endevour allows it to play quite differently by leaning more on defense or offense.
6.
ZapdosSuch a good offensive mon that applies a lot of pressure with its strong tbolts. Its defensive set is also really usefull, with or without sleep talk, and can feel hard to kill sometimes. Being shackled to rest hurts it a lot tho. The offensive set is just a nice and simple way to deal good and consistent damage and abuse spikes. I should also note how many times this bad boy has saved me from Suicune.
7.
GengarSpin blocking is huge and its never ending movepool makes Gengar a very customizable and solid option for any type of spikes teams. It can get pursuit trapped but eving to survive it isn't that hard so this isn't a huge knock to it. Of course tho I should point out its lack of good stab moves which leaves it feeling a bit weak sometimes. But with such options as the rare will o wisp, taunt, explosion, destiny bond and more it really doesn't matter that both of its stabs are physical.
8.
SalamenceSalamence is my bro. If nobody's got me, I know Salamence's got me. Intimidate is great and makes dealing with fighting types way easier, while my man's great offensive move pool allows him to pull off a great mixed set that is really good at abusing spikes. Having dragon dance and good physical moves also allows Mence to be a great set up sweeper. Salamence helps and gives consistency against a lot of teams and mons, especially fighting types as said before.
9.
SuicuneThis thing is dumb. It sets up easily thanks to its huge defenses and hp and then it just rolls through the opponent. You really can't give any time to Suicune or it will destroy you easily. Thankfully, being forced to use only rest for healing and it getting hit by both spikes and sand stop it from being too much to handle, but sometimes it can still feel cheesy with just how many one mon stands it can pull of.
-GREAT
10.
DugtrioThis thing is dumb 2. Dug is easily the best revenge killer in the meta thanks to being able to deny switching. So much can be trapped by it after minimal or no chip (Tyranitar, Blissey, Metagross, Jirachi, Celebi, Heracross, Breloom...) and it can be really hard to play around. It also single handendly enables virgin5 and especially special offense, which without it would struggle against a bunch of mons they really want gone. There's more then enough reason to put Dug futher up in the list honestly, but I personally feel right where it sits right now.
11.
JirachiThe king of hax himself. Jira works very well as a setup sweeper with calm mind, a wish user and something inbetween with both wish and calm mind. My personal favourite sets are fire punch + tox + wish, for its great utility and blanking of Aero while also helping with other choice banders, and subcm, for being a cm setupper who can beat Blissey. A generally very useful mon that ties a bunch of spikes teams and spec off teams together. It can get stupid tho with serene grace hax, like have fun switching in your Ttar to eq when my fire punch decides to burn you.
12.
CelebiCelebi isn't a great special wall honestly because of it being weak to ice and fire type attacks, but it still helps out against a bunch of special attackers. Leech seed is also a very useful and rare option that annoys even its checks, while cm and swords dance make it a great baton passer and even a good set up sweeper on its own right. Celebi is a nice alternative to Bliss on offensive teams that can't afford Blisseys passivity while still being rather bulky and having natural cure, leech seed and recover to keep itself alive. Due to it not doing a great job at walling all special attackers and also its propensity to either get worn down easily if it doesn't have recover or become fodder for Skarm if it doesn't have hp fire it doesn't feel worthy of being ranked any higher. It does hold one of my favourite out of the pokemon nicknames I've come up with tho.
13.
AerodactylI used to love Aero more but recently it has begun failing me as it really tuds into any team that holds multiple rock resists. God help you if those resists are wish rachi and def pert. It also needs a lot of help to beat Skarm which can be frustrating at times. This doesn't change the fact tho that Aero's great speed allows it to clean up late game like few things can, not to mention its super power to flinch a victory out of thin air. It is still a great mon, but I've come to use it less as the upsides don't always feel worth it. Still, you should always be prepared for it.
14.
ClaydolThe best spinner in the meta as it can 1v1 Gengar well enough. Don't personally love it tho because it isn't THAT great against Gengar and it's a pretty bad rock resist. It deals little to Ttar for having a super effective stab earthquake and takes too much from hp bug. Due to it's typing tho most Claydol teams won't have Swampert and much less so Flygon, so often times using Claydol teams feels like praying that DD Ttar doesn't flinch you once or your entire game plan is gone. Its utility in getting rid of spikes reliably is still awesome and I appreciate its capability to soft check the electric types when it's healthy.
15.
StarmieClaydoll, but fast and frail. That's about how I feel on Starmie. It's a great mon but it can feel hard to get the most out of it sometimes. The offensive set gets worn down quickly by the spikes it needs to spin while the defensive set is not nearly as defensive as it seems and can't get rid of Gengar as easily, thus making spining take longer. Its high speed and great offensive movepool do allow it tho to act as a great Aero-esque late game cleaner. If you take it less as the spin guy and more as just an offensive beast who also happens to have the great utility of spin it often becomes more reliable.
-GOOD
16.
MoltresI really like Moltres. It's a good offensive threat that abuses spikes well and spams will o wisp. It does struggle a lot against Blissey, Suicune and Milotic tho which leaves it feeling pretty weak sometimes. Roar and Wisp help offset that but you do for sure need a bunch of help from team mates to get the most out of it. I wouldn't personally use it on spikeless teams, but I guess sunny day on a spec off does seem pretty fun.
17.
MagnetonIt traps the Skarm and the Forre. They good so Mag good too. Snorlax like very much. Not a super complex mon to say a ton about but a very important one on physical offense.
18.
ForretressUsed to spam it a lot but I have since grown more distant. It is a very nice pokemon who compresses the roles of spiker and spinner but it needs pursuit support and can often leave games vs Gengar feeling like an uphill battle. Offensive spikes teams with Gengar can really just suck as Gengar is often not going to go down to the first pursuit, leading to mind games and the risk of spikes staying up too long. If played well tho it has the potential to really screw with spikes squad, and of course with no Gengar it is really solid.
19.
CharizardThe more I use it the more I like it. A good special attacker that can deal with the opponent without too much support. I should note tho that beat up doesn't beat twave Bliss unless you catch her on the switch, which can really suck, and focus punch is a bit weird against Blissey. It also does nothing at all to Suicune and Milotic aside for giving them free turns, because of this it can sometimes feel match up reliant which isn't great.
20.
FlygonThe best alternative to Swampert as a pure rock resist. Levitate is awesome and so is base 100 speed but its lower than Pert stats in everything else leave much to be desired. You also need to choose wheter to hit flying types hard with rockslide and be walled forever by Skarm or run fire blast to help there but become weaker against the flyers if they can heal off your toxic. Offensive Flygon also sucks pretty hard and I don't like it.
21.
HeracrossThis guy either saves the game on his own or misses three mega horns and dies, no inbetween. It can end games on the spot and it does really hurt big stall but it needs a bunch of support if it wants to get anywhere. I want to like it more but it just isn't consistent enough. Also, don't love its Dug weakness.
22.
BreloomSpore carries Breloom hard. It isn't fast nor bulky and its ability is just fine so it usually doesn't do much outside of sporing. It also hates Gengar, Salamence and Gyarados and that makes it hard to justify it sometimes. If given the right support tho this thing can be really annoying and wall break nicely for team members in the back...if Dug doesn't ruin your fun first.
-OKAY
23.
SnorlaxYes, I am not a Snorlax believer. Sand, spikes, metagross, skarmory and Ttar being things you hate is really bad in this meta and forces a lot of support to allow Lax to do anything. Its huge self destruct, great special bulk and potential to snowball if given help is great and does make it a near mandatory option on physical offense. I just don't think having to rely on so much outside help is a good thing tho.
24.
MiloticI may be too harsh on Milo, but after spending a lot of time with her I just can't put her any higher. Milo is hard to kill and a good wall but it's just so passive and can be really exploited. Not to mention how many times it has to pray that Aero or DD Ttar don't flinch/crit her. Hypnosis on sd pass teams is cool but hardly the most reliable thing ever. Milo can really screw you over if you aren't ready but her passiveness will always leave her feeling as a more specific bulky water than Suicune and his calm mind.
25.
JolteonAh yes, the Zapdos check that doesn't like twave nor toxic. This guy is cool with that Aero level speed but it duds into most special walls, doesn't hit insanely hard, gets chipped down quick by spikes and is frail. Thus it ends up feeling like a worse Zapdos most of the time. It does for sure have its place in the meta as a faster Zap alternative that is a bit better into enemy Zap thanks to volt absorb, but it isn't great.
26.
GyaradosWorse DD Salamence is still a DD Salamence. Gyarados' unique typing and access to cool options like Twave and taunt help it stand out from Salamence by making it better in certain match ups, like against Swampert and Suicune. Its way lower speed and worse physical atk coupled with the weird exsclusion of rock slide from its movepool can sometimes make it feel like you are just using a worse Salamence. It also really needs Mag support in most cases or it will get beat by Skarm. Hp Rock + Taunt can work to deal with Skarm if you're magless, but then you have no stab and hit for little damage other stuff. And if you use hp flying with taunt you can't beat Zapdos and Aerodactyl.
27.
MedichamA fun pokemon to use who can deal lots of damage but requires good reads and isn't as fast as something this frail should be. It dies quick but if played right it will leave its mark on the enemy team. I believe it is OU worthy.
28.
CloysterCloyster looks so good on paper but bad spdef, meh hp and being hit by sand, spikes and toxic makes it feel worse than Skarm even on offensive teams. Access to boom, spin and not being Mag trapped do give it a reason to exist on offensive spikes teams. It's also better vs Pert than Skarm...and in theory vs Suicune too but a modest +1 Suicune has a roll to 2hko with even just surf.
29.
HariyamaThe last mon I believe to deserve an OU rating. It is very specific but the one and only knock off is so stupid of a move that it gives it a reason to exist. It's also not an awful rock resist and it has some nice options like whirlwind while also having two good abilities in guts and thick fat.
====== EXPLANATIONS PART 2 ======
From this point foward every mon I will talk about doesn't deserve to be OU ranked but does have uses in the meta, even if they are very niche.
-NICHE
30.
JynxJynx is a nice lead on special offense teams thanks to sleep move and perish trapping making it easier to eliminate threats like Tyranitar and Blissey. Unfortunately that's the only style she really fits on and to me that's a problem as in my eyes special offense is a very match up fishy style that isn't a great idea to spam. When the time calls for spec off tho Jynx can help out in the lead slot.
31.
RaikouAnother mon who is very good but mostly works with spec off. It being really Dug weak also sucks as you either have to dedicate a team slot to Porygon2 or you have to come to terms with your fast setup sweeper being easy to revenge kill. With the due support it does pose quite a threat with its great 115 base speed and calm mind.
32.
SmeargleA great lead on hyper offense and the mon with the single most costumizable move set, but it only works on HO which isn't a super reliable team style this gen. I might actually be raking it a bit too high but Smeargle is just such a fun and creative mon and does really help out on HO.
33.
Porygon2Dug b'gone. That's about it. Yeah copying stuff like levitate, volt absorb and natural cure with trace is really nice and its access to tbolt, icebeam, twave, toxic and recover is awesome but if it couldn't trap Dug for Dug weak teams it would just be a worse bulky normal type than Bliss and Snorlax. Raikou's best friend in other words.
34.
KingdraAnother guy that only really works on spec off with Dug support. Noticing a pattern? Yeah I don't love this team style but I do have respect for it and do think the UUBL mons that often appear on spec off are genuine parts of the meta, even if niche. Kingdra itself is a good late game cleaner thanks to swift swim and is also nice at weather clearing for Suicune, but if you don't kill Bliss or have to fight a lax or, god forbid, Milotic or Suicune it will do just about nothing all game.
35.
VenusaurOkay okay, maybe it's a bit high but after playing a bunch on ladder with a team given to me by pkLeech, which even helped me get to my peak of 1813, I actually have a lot of love for Venu. It isn't great by any means and usually Breloom and Celebi will do more for you but Venusaur's unique set of traits (it being much bulkier and even faster than Breloom but having access to a sleep move unlike Celebi) can make it a fun option on some offensive teams.
36.
RegiceThis sure is a special wall. It gets worn down really quickly and can't afford to use rest so its hp is a finite resource, but while it sticks around it does really annoy special attackers while turning them into good opportunities to spam ice beam. Tbolt is great coverage and twave is nice utility plus being able to boom Bliss is really nice but getting chipped down easily, having a weaker boom than even Gengar and an awful match up into Metagross keep Regice pretty low for me.
37.
RegirockDo you want Ttar on your mag team but you don't want sand due to your Suicune and Snorlax hating it? Here's Ttar's cheap copy that has way fewer options but does get boom and doesn't set up sand. It's cool on the teams it works on but 99% of the times Ttar will do more for you.
38.
RegisteelSo annoying to kill but really passive. It has essentially the same issues as Milotic but it only has rest and leftys (thanks to its sand immunity) to heal. Super specific and usually outclassed by Metagross, but it can be annoying thanks to its huge bulk.
39.
SlakingThis guy is here because I'm friends with Blues. That's it. I never use it unless Blues is forcing me. It is really cool but only if you're ready to do tons of great reads...and get clapped by the move protect. Però molto rispetto per Popo comunque.
friens40.
MisdreavusMissy works on like one super man team but she works really well there. More of an ABR special than a real meta threath but she can put in work.
41.
HoundoomWith 110 spa atk and stab on pursuit this should be the best way to get rid of Gengar but getting easily trapped by Dug and having mediocre stats outside of its spa atk make it hard to justify. I may be too nice on it.
42.
VaporeonIt can sometimes work as a salac pass lead on hyper offense but only sometimes. Blanking mono Suicune (and even toxic Milo thanks to sub) is neat but it doesn't make up for Vaporeon's meh stats. It isn't very compatible with the meta if you will...okay I'll see myself out.
43.
DusclopsCan sometimes be worth it on stall as a spin blocker that tanks a lot of hits and can beat Snorlax with imprison sets. The best use for it in my opinion is to impede virgin5 from getting 6-0'd by a curse rest Snorlax. Useless everywhere else and even in stall there's other options...and stall itself isn't super popular. Unless people actually believe ABR's recent VR lol.
-VERY NICHE
44.
GlalieIt's a worse Smearlge that beats Salamence. Hyper specific but it can work as an agro spikes setter on HO.
45.
UmbreonI don't see the hype for this guy. It pursuits but doesn't even do that much to Gengar, it wishes but it's way worse than Jira. It's so absurdly passive and can end up being a sitting duck really easily.
46.
WeezingIt can be an alright answer to fighting types on super man stall, which is normally not great against the likes of Heracross. It doesn't do much anywhere else. Probably better to use Gengar on any other team.
47.
BlazikenBeating Tyranitar, Blissey, Skarmory and Metagross while having options for Pert, Zap and Mence should make this mon great...but it just doesn't have stats. A real shame, with more speed it could really have been something great. Almost feels like it should have an ability that gives it speed, that would be pretty cool and totally wouldn't make it op for several gens in a row.
48.
ArticunoLike Weezing but it beats special attackers and is way more passive. Only use it on specific super man teams and then remember why DD Ttar and Aero are good pokemon.
49.
DonphanIt can actually be a great rock resist but man it needs so much support. It hates skarm, it hates ghost types and it only has rest for self healing. Nice stats, typing and rapid spin give it a reason to exist.
50.
MarowakIn a perfect world speed pass is banned and Marowak is jobless. Not the world we live in.
51.
ArmaldoIf it could use both knock off and rapid spin together it would actually be really cool, but it can't. The utility options it has are really cool but there's many better spinners and Hariyama is usually a better knock off user. Armaldo does have a better mu into Snorlax which can be nice but Hariyama isn't awful into Lax either, it is a fighting type after all.
====== EXPLANATIONS PART 3 ======
52.
NinjaskThis...thing. My hottest take is that speed pass itself is a bad part of the meta that should be banned. The speed tiers being rather set in stone is a fun part of this meta that speed pass ruins. Ninjask teams are the worst offenders when it comes to this due to being huge mu fishes that insta win or lose based on match up. I hate it and hope it gets banned. Just yesterday I won a game against Ninjask on ladder and I used none of my braincells. Just a braindead mon to use and play against.
(The game in question https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2242529425 )
(https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2247782561 I now feel compelled, as of 20/11/2024, to add this game. On the ADVrevival discord I accidently started a whole conversation on sand attack and Ninjask by posting this and talking smack about these style and I think it works as another example of this style just being luck based and not competitive)
=============================
This concludes my VR. My thoughts are of course bound to change, mostly on the mons I wouldn't rank OU as the rankings there aren't perfect and there's various mons that I could see ranking higher or lower, but for now this should work to give my general feelings on the meta. I've really enjoyed gen3 OU even tho I have had some ups and downs with it and I plan on playing it for a while still. I've also tried out Gen3 Ubers, PU and ZU while they had ROA spotlights and enjoyed the former a lot so maybe one day I'll play Ubers enough to make another VR like this for it. Hope that what I had to say interested you and also BluesEnergy00 is actually a scam and totally washed L + Ratio + Meglio il nord xoxoxo.
-Leo
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Lead Medicham is definitely fun and has good matchups against some common leads. It usually leads to early Gar entries which can be trapped and eliminated, letting the rest of the team take advantage. Leading can be a great way of getting extra value from Medi which is usually hard to get in safely.
Does Medicham being higher than 3 ou ranked mons mean anything for it's tiering?Quick summary of VR:
S:
A1:
A2:
B1:
B2:
C1:
C2:
D:
E:
Main things I noted data-wise are
1. Tyranitar and Skarmory stand in similar relative order to last year - 5 people ranked Skarmory above Tyranitar.
2. Tier boundaries don't appear so clearly this year. I wonder if people have started to see many traditionally defined roles as blurred.
Refer to previous posts on reading the following plots.
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Files attached - refer to previous posts for details
Ask adv council!
To some extent the lead metagame, where most of the Medicham resurgence is coming from is slower than the game itself, such that you can get away with having a lower speed so long as you match up okay into the common leads you can't outrun.
az
I'm going off of October gen 3 OU elo 1500+ lead stats for this conversation.
Medicham (Assume Adamant) into common leads:
| Tyranitar | 18.2% | Out-speeds all sets |
| Zapdos | 17.4% | Usually gets out-sped, but does not get ohko'd |
| Salamence | 7.8% | usually gets out-sped |
| Metagross | 7.3% | out-speeds all common sets |
| Skarmory | 6.6% | Need Jolly to outrun YOLO Skarm I guess lol |
| Suicune | 3.8% | Does not always out-speed, does not get ohko'd |
| Hariyama | 2.5% | out-speeds all sets |
| Jolteon | 2.3% | Does not out-speed, does not get ohko'd |
| Jynx | 2.1% | You risk getting slept unless Lum Berry |
| Snorlax | 1.5% | out-speeds all sets |
| Blaziken | 1.5% | same base speed stat |
| Smeargle | 1.4% | gets slept unless Lum Berry or Jolly |
| Glalie | 1.3% | same base speed stat |
| Gengar | 1.3% | gets out-sped |
| Slaking | 1.2% | gets out-sped |
| Breloom | 1.2% | Depends on Nature |
| Jirachi | 1.2% | Usually gets out-sped, but does not get ohko'd |
| Forretress | 1.1% | out-speeds all sets |
| Vaporeon | 1.0% | out-speeds all sets |
| Aerodactyl | 1.0% | gets out-sped |
| Regirock | 0.9% | out-speeds all sets |
| Ninjask | 0.9% | gets out-sped |
| Heracross | 0.9% | out-speeds and kills if Hera is adamant. If Jolly it's a roll to kill. |
| Celebi | 0.8% | Usually gets out-sped, but does not get ohko'd |
With an Adamant nature, base 80 out-speeds or has the possibility to out-speed (set depending) ~2/3 of lead matchups.
As a community, we need to put Pert above Gross. Blissey and Pert belong in the S Tier. I love having them and hate facing them.
Game doesn't really happen for you until you take out Bliss and/or Pert. Gross is easily handled. That's the difference.
I can see ABR's Vision. Not sure if I ever faced him on The Ladder. But if I have, he is well aware I hate when he does the Dug trick. Usopp (Magneton) has 1 job! Don't Dug Trap Him! Let him do his job! :P
Celebrating my 2nd Place finish at 1827. I think I know a little about this game my friends. I wanted to the #1 so bad. I'll try again. When you see Koby23 on The Ladder, know that I will desperately try to Para you. Because I run 1 squad always. I want #1. :p
Game doesn't really happen for you until you take out Bliss and/or Pert. Gross is easily handled. That's the difference.
I can see ABR's Vision. Not sure if I ever faced him on The Ladder. But if I have, he is well aware I hate when he does the Dug trick. Usopp (Magneton) has 1 job! Don't Dug Trap Him! Let him do his job! :P
Celebrating my 2nd Place finish at 1827. I think I know a little about this game my friends. I wanted to the #1 so bad. I'll try again. When you see Koby23 on The Ladder, know that I will desperately try to Para you. Because I run 1 squad always. I want #1. :p
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I've only just recently been able to stay above 1600/now around 1700 and am not trying to make a tier list. I noticed that Ninjask is getting banned in some tournaments, is there a time when people might vote on banning it or limiting it in general play? I enjoy playing and losing vs almost anything except for Ninjask.
I came up with a Skarmory build with Substitute, Roar, (Spikes) + 1. If the Ninjask doesn't Baton Pass on the same turn I switch it in, I can Substitute and successfully Roar out a Magneton. This stops the initial Ninjask pass and gives me a chance to preserve Skarmory, and enables a possible double switch to take out their Magneton with another trapper (or a switch to a non-trapper).
However I still have a feeling that most players don't like Ninjask, and I feel like I enjoy teambuilding around other threats more.
Also are discussions on bans ok to have here? I like that ABR said it should be banned.
I also think I saw a wave of teams using things from the ABR tier list and I do think Clear Body on several of his picks like the Regis are interesting. I was playing lead Salamence for a while and noticed I had to get lucky vs lead Regirock. Normally Regirock uses either Rock Slide, Thunder Wave, or Explosion, and of these Rock Slide still can be subbed once or twice against in order to fish for a miss or switch in a check.
I also tried using a Blissey team for a time and constantly got wrecked by Zapdug and dropped quite a bit, but Regice seems like a nice alternative.
I came up with a Skarmory build with Substitute, Roar, (Spikes) + 1. If the Ninjask doesn't Baton Pass on the same turn I switch it in, I can Substitute and successfully Roar out a Magneton. This stops the initial Ninjask pass and gives me a chance to preserve Skarmory, and enables a possible double switch to take out their Magneton with another trapper (or a switch to a non-trapper).
However I still have a feeling that most players don't like Ninjask, and I feel like I enjoy teambuilding around other threats more.
Also are discussions on bans ok to have here? I like that ABR said it should be banned.
I also think I saw a wave of teams using things from the ABR tier list and I do think Clear Body on several of his picks like the Regis are interesting. I was playing lead Salamence for a while and noticed I had to get lucky vs lead Regirock. Normally Regirock uses either Rock Slide, Thunder Wave, or Explosion, and of these Rock Slide still can be subbed once or twice against in order to fish for a miss or switch in a check.
I also tried using a Blissey team for a time and constantly got wrecked by Zapdug and dropped quite a bit, but Regice seems like a nice alternative.
Please do not discuss bans here.
i'm surprised porygon2 isn't on this list at all given its ability to trap dugtrio. i know this is based on your personal usage but i agree with your dug take and i like using pory2 to help with opposing dugsDisclaimer: This VR is representative of my usage over my last 26 important ADV tour games (jimvitational + classic playoffs). While, in theory, usage does not have to fully align with viability, I believe in putting my money where my mouth is. As such, I use things I believe to be good and don't use things I don't believe to be good.
S
this is evidently going to seem crazy to most people. however... i used blissey in over half my games. it's pretty much the only real special wall in adv, and that type of defensive certainty is near mandatory when you are using things that invite special attacks. spikers, like skarmory and forretress, invite these types of special attacks, and as such i use blissey on roughly 99% of my spike balance teams. the only real exception would be superman, but even then blissey can fit on those (such as the missy 6 where bliss is the only mon taking spikes). the other thing that makes blissey so amazing is its set versatility, between twave toxic sing aroma cm counter you have a ton of options to choose from that help make it more of an active presence.
the best revenge killer in the tier by far. it can trap, with minimal or no chip: bliss, loom, cele, hera, rachi, mag, meta, tar, and other non-ou mons too. the main way to fight against dug is spikes, but dug spike spin teams are the overall most consistent in adv (they also feature blissey...) and dug offenses can often overwhelm spike teams by winning first. i also have to mention the lead dug trend that is absolutely real and makes people consider the lead meta in a different way. there is also the enabling of weather reset (tarless) teams that i love recently.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-798195?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786563?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786733?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-786631
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-785570
spikes are more important than sand in terms of shaping adv, and skarm is the best spiker. the only reason i'm not putting it higher is my appreciation of other spikers, which is mostly forry but cloy smear have their uses i will talk about as well.
A+
gar only really fits on spike teams and dug teams, but 90% of my teams have 1 of those 2 elements and gar is amazing when you can fit it. i still believe that boom is the best no matter what team, but things like dbond, raindance, and modest full atker sets are super cool alongside boom too. it's just fast with great immunities and offensive versatility, so long as you don't over-rely on wisp it will be good.
the best mon at exploding, and enabler of offensive strategies. i like cb, mix, and agility (boom, not slide) a lot, cuz the other sets feel like they rely on mash accuracy more. i also like how these sets play into skarm teams, because cb and mix threaten skarm more directly, and agility means you can boom on a defensive piece cuz dug can't revenge you anymore. however, it is not a great physical wall / dd answer and that needs to be kept in mind.
i used to be a big suicune hater, but rain dance changed this for me. i mean, the modest non-rest sets are still amazingly threatening and defensively useful for faster paced teams, but rest alongside dugtrio and weather reset is extremely consistent. when you get the conditions right, and they aren't that hard to get right, then it's often either unkillable or sweeping outright. the right suicune set beats pretty much any team.
A
offensive all the way. modest surf and then honestly pick any 3 of tbolt ice spin recover and you're good. it cleans through offensive teams as well as defensive teams after some steps are taken (like using gar or dug to remove bliss). offmie is also beautiful in the sense that it actually scares skarm out directly so you can keep those spikes off. twave sets are valid but hinge more on the spinning and it requires very precise play vs tox skarm, gar, or suit tar.
gonna be real, i think eq is mid on claydol. psy spin boom are mandatory on pretty much all sets (run boom on mons that learn it), so that leaves eq vs the refresh/rest slot. frankly, if you want any sort of longevity then you need the status healing options and all the eq targets take spikes (or get dugged) anyway. if you happen to use a dol offense with like lax meta and no dug or spikes, then yea you should run eq. anyway, it soft checks pretty much the entire tier with boom and fits on a large variety of teams. it glues many mons, like rest cune, together with a larger team.
so, i have been enjoying forry more lately, but i still don't like the usual structures. i think that forry tar with no other spinner is mid and does not set the right conditions vs opposing spike teams. some ways i've been using forry that feel good are: physdef firetox to 1v1 skarm and other forry alongside umbreon, spike bug zapcannon boom + dol, and spike ghost spin rest + aroma.
versatile in sets and the teams it can fit on. cm and mixed sets are very threatening but usually my favorite is just toxic physdef. it 1v1s tar meta pert and the things that threaten it (fires, dug, gar) can't come in safely or repeatedly. it also takes spikes but wishtect in sand is amazing healing and fully stops things like aero.
A-
one of the best traders and most important mons in the tier for spikeless / dugless teams. whether you use mag, meta, or both to batter skarm, that will generally open up enough room for lax to do its thing. far from a perfect special wall but it, like claydol, soft checks about every mon in the tier yet does so with a much stronger boom.
okay, yes. tar is low on my vr, and i only used it 5/26 games. i did not get rampantly swept by lax, cune, or salac hera. so why do i use less tar than most? i think it's a jack-of-all-trades that does not excel at any one role. it is not a physical wall, special wall, boom trader, spinner, spiker, or spike immune. it can trap, but not as majorly as dug or mag. it can soft check zapdos while applying pressure on a blissey, but performing one role worsens its ability to do the other. it often needs spikes to get past its checks (say, waters), but using a slow pokemon with no defined defensive niche on a spike team is very hard to do. i'd often rather be using a spinner, dug, or gar on my spike teams. sand is nice in some games but hurts a lot of ur own mons too. i also feel like none of tars sets are that amazing, but my favorite right now is probably cb or suit. high ceiling pokemon but i prefer more defined roles from the mons i use.
i think pert is good and important, but my recent high suicune usage has led to less perts. it's probably the best solo physwall in the tier, but that's usually best on teams with spikes. if you're using pert spikes, you may end up weak to opposing spikes, and thus want spin. but if you're spinning, then you feel like you should use cune or milo with your dol to be better vs mixed attackers, so this leaves pert less room. pert is still valid on spinless defensive teams (usually with wish bliss for me), or on offenses. but also on offenses i prefer things like meta, regirock, mie, dol, offcune in place of where pert would usually go, and those other mons also don't need to pump to threaten skarm. timelessly important but not its time to shine right now.
not much to say, skarmforry are good and therefore magneton has use. i still only use modest magnet, and i guess the main thing i could say about magneton is that regirock is amazing with it. more on regi later tho.
it's bad at being a special wall, good at applying pressure. i don't use leech 3 cuz i don't really use cele tar skarm, but i like cele with mag a lot. leech pass sets or honestly just super (cm 3atk) is very good and checks things that magoff usually dislikes (pert and gar to name a couple).
B+
still really good vs some offenses but often feels like it relies on prediction / doesn't have enough time to create the autowin scenarios with spikes. its worse than dug at revenge killing cm'ers, and it's better at revenging birds but it feels like you either get walled by skarm + rock resist anyway, or you don't have enough juice to bypass dual rock res (pert meta or pert rachi type stuff) on offense. it will never be unviable but honestly not a huge fan rn.
the only spike immune physical wall, amazing vs things like rock spam. tox tect with either of hprock or flame is always reliable if your partners can deal with the gar type of mons which they usually can. id say the main issue with flygon is how it matches up vs meta mag combos and differing suicune sets. i also like cb gon as a way to hybridize a dug/aero of sorts that can hard into tar or meta, usually alongside defensive jirachi.
used to not be a fan, but now i am. i still don't rly use it as a skarm replacement but i like it as a spiker on more offensive teams alongside trappers. i had some success with cloy mag and cloy dug, as cloys boom is a good way to secure those traps. i still like going timid with it.
very solid. without dug i like investing in a ton of atk (like near max neutral) for boom ranges on blissey and the like, and with dug even weak booms are good positioning tools. it's incredible vs zapdug teams but also bliss-less spike teams as well. vs blissey you just trade and open up for something like offmie which is plenty good. seismic toss is a neat trick alongside leads that are zapdos weak so you can break the sub pass (i used this with cloy for example).
super deadly in the late games, imo a better function than leading with it most times. you can gain subs on a ton of mons (refpert, skarm if ur lastmon, non cm psy cele, cm bliss, def rachi, gar), and steamroll from there. i've been using it more on spike spin teams rather than offenses because early bliss chips dug or baits beatup -> then you can counter-trap and your kou is set to sweep in the late game. you can also ev it to live a single eq from meta mence dol etc.
B
amazing at what it does (walling mixed attackers), but i really only like to use it on v5 styles (bliss dug dol milo skarm for those unaware). it also unfortunately faces competiton from cune who is a lot better vs opposing milo cune and lax, but it is definitely more comfortable vs zard mence and the like.
honestly, not a big fan. i feel like on spikeless teams it needs dugtrio for progress but i often prefer mons like jynx and explosion users to guarantee my progress more. on spike teams it can make progress but i prefer blissey as a special wall and it also gives claydol opportunity to spin, unless ur using a ghost type but skarm zap ghost(gar) is already a lot of slots and really only fits on superman. if i use it, its with spdef evs and alongside a flygon most likely.
similar to zapdos, while being much worse vs eq and spikes it's often better vs opposing special attackers. i pretty much only use it with meta mie skarm but those teams are timeless.
my guy. i used it quite a bit in revival 1 and for this batch a couple more times in jimvitational. i honestly like hprock over slide for reliability, but besides that and boom there's a lot of flexibility. usually superpower is good vs lax tar, but twave counter etc are great picks as well. it amazingly checks every dragon dancer, lax, zard, mixmence, and does all this while threatening boom on the offensive end. this type of role compression is massive for teams that need help vs the aforementioned threats, like mag teams do. i mean, it's kind of like a tar with better defense and explosion... it just doesn't set sand. rock lax mag, rock lax dol, rock skarm spin, imo these are all good and honestly fairly consistent.
not a ton to say, just better at forcing kills for dug teams than zap usually is. perish (with sub cb dug) is my fav set for that reason, but within that nevermelt and modest are cool options for stuff like nuking opposing zap t1 or 2hkoing offensive tars.
strong dad energy, the hit n run king. for a spike team i really liked the forry umb combo to help vs skarm and gar without necessitating mag. for my own mag team i liked the lax cele combo to bait gar and have backup help vs special attackers. if you get it in the right position (weather reset ideally, skarm dealt with in some form, or just facing offense) it is truly unbeatable. super good at patching up physical weaknesses as well due to its crazy defense.
the best for trapping gar, synchro vs wisp pretty much kills it on the spot. wish tect is good, and honestly umb walls stuff like zap and mixmence pretty well too. charm is a cute option over toxic if you want to use it as a lax check. i would use it with a spinner and 1 of spikes / mag still.
something about this or baton pass still needs to be banned.
B-
i only used it once but i will probably use it more in the future. it's one of the most self sufficient attackers in the tier, not really mandating trapping or spikes even if they are cool bonuses. it's like a mixmence that's better vs skarmbliss and threatens cele rachi more directly. you really need tools vs cune/milo teams tho.
more sufficient than zard in that it kinda needs spikes, but it can be really potent due to its added strength. personally, though, i find its main appeal over zard to be its bulk and because of that i like rest moltres. rest status or rest sunnyday are really good on skarmbliss teams for fighting opposing fires and sitting around to beat opposing skarmbliss with no real time limit.
the best fighter, probably should be ou soon. reversal is cute in the back but it also has an amazing spread at lead. cb is fun and deadly if ur ready to click right.
has better typing as a dd'er than mence even if its slower and weaker. i don't really like dragon dancing much in general tho, often feels like too much has to be set up to get an otherwise mediocre mon going. still, it can definitely sweep some endgames with the right set and i respect that.
same ol same ol, ddpass is cheese but can win t1, while spikes sets are far more consistent. i like mixing it up with encore, dbond, dd boom, whirlwind, etc. really good vs stuff like skarm zap cune leads and can build huge early advantages.
same ol same ol, great vs claydol but meh vs offense (tho dbond is a nice touch in the lax mu). perish song is a good panic button but overall a lot less deadly than something like gar with wisp and boom. i feel like the missy classic with zapmolt can get overrun by offense pretty fast due to being slow paced with not much to change that. still, can definitely autowin some games vs spinner teams.
can be super good but also needs a lot in its favor. i liked it with cloy dug and 3 other boom mons (gar regi meta) to eliminate bliss cune stuff. rd boom gar is an amazing way to get ur kingdra a headstart without taking chip prior, shoutout to Mana for that.
super good physical wall, but needs specific support to not lose to skarm. that is, either run a magneton or do something like mu division don forry where donphan beats peck skarm and forry beats tox skarm, but this doesn't work as well vs pecktox combo and you still need to bypass the gengar. however, huge upside vs some physical offenses and garless teams than run peck skarm.
knock off mon that owns dol and lax (psychup for curse, but yea u can get crit). hits super well in its good mus but also extremely frail for its less good mus (mixed attackers, specoff in general) that it is hard to justify sometimes. still, a viable way to beat some top tiers mons that should be considered.
C+
alright, honestly not my cup of tea, but let me explain. dd has many of the same issues as dd gyara but kind of made worse by the 4x ice weak. mix is its overall best set but idk if intimidate really justifies it over zard which is a much better breaker. its a fast bird but really mid at checking cmers compared to dug aero zard etc. cb has a defined niche of being good vs fighting types and cune, but its still cbmence and can often thud super hard vs tss. im ranking it out of respect, but i genuinely used 0 mence in my last 26 games and i never felt the urge to build with it.
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hope you enjoyed the read, until next time