OU ADV OU Viability Ranking

im glad u agree but we have different reasons for agreeing. i don't think curselax is very good. too much sand. too many spikes. too many offensive cmers. you can't really rely on it defensively against any TSS team. you're basically down 5-6. at least until the lategme ~n_n~

i think the utility sets with boom are the best.
im glad u agree but we have different reasons for agreeing. i don't think curselax is very good. too much sand. too many spikes. too many offensive cmers. you can't really rely on it defensively against any TSS team. you're basically down 5-6. at least until the lategme ~n_n~

i think the utility sets with boom are the best.
wasnt advocating curse as the top set, the point was more that it has multiple routes to threaten with whereas cune is almost always some variant of CM. basically i think lax is the more versatile threat. boom sets are generally best because boom is just a great utility move and lax has the tools to engineer scenarios where it gets what it wants, but you can run lax without boom and its still a potent threat since you have extra options in fireblast and curse and whatnot. with cune you have to run CM to threaten anything ever so its more limited in the roles is can shine in. that was more what i was getting at.
Here is my opinion, coming from my experience of high-level play many years ago.
Zapdos, in practice, is probably the second most viable in all of Advance.
Forget Snorlax. Forget Suicune. Zapdos needs to be ranked higher than either of them.

That's all I have to say.
Yeah I've been using zapdos a bit recently, it's pretty good, restalk + pressure + good bulk + great typing makes it a great mon for stall on stall match ups, if you can't 3hko it, it will usually beat you one on one. It's also extremely difficult to get rid of, there's nothing that traps it, and its not like you can take it out with residual damage. It's also got that strong stab thunderbolt, that even un-invested hurts quite a bit. It's also the only thing that can truly counter gyarados consistently. My personal favorite is putting toxic in the last slot over hidden power/roar. It makes it so neither pert nor flygon can switch in, it gives celebi a much harder time, (pressure drains leech seed and psychic pretty quickly) and makes it a decent cm blissey answer. Unless you really need it for phazing, i think toxic should be the standard on defensive zapdos. My main problem with the defensive set is that even though its great against stall, I find it often gets overwhelmed by more offensive teams. I don't use the other sets very often, but I've definitely had trouble facing some of them, the baton pass set can be quite dangerous since you can't really phaze it, and even the rarer offensive variants can be scary when coupled with spikes. It is somewhat limited in its attacking options though, its move pool isn't really that great. I don't know if it should be moved up above cune/lax just because it's not as threatening as those two, however it could be argued that it should be moved up higher in the A rank.
my buddy Golden Sun can tell you all about his patented modest restalk zapdos, I used it myself a few times after he owned with it in spl and it is great. I personally like baton pass as the last move btw.

also real men use cb double edge gyara
I think Zap is definitely better than the current list calls it but I wouldn't say its past Lax. Probably over Mence. I wouldn't go so far as to put Toxic as the main option on Rest-Talk either, while its certainly good, roar lets zap fill a pretty good role it only shares with Articuno as the some of the most potent potent spikes shufflers in the game, since they both threaten fliers with their STABs, which makes them very difficult to deal with. Cuno's main advantage is that it also deals with Flygon and Claydol, who shut Roar Zap down completely (and honestly its actually quite a legitimate reason to use Cuno if you're going hard stall). Toxic also leaves you pretty dead vs Cele, immunity lax (imo generally the better ability), mag, rachi, kou. I think its a great option for defensive Zap, but its probably the second best choice. Roar is more reliable, and in some situations can just win games by itself. Although, that said, against Dol it makes Zap a totally dead mon, so perhaps reliable isn't the word I'm looking for.
I don't think toxic leaves you dead to celebi at all, toxic forces celebi to switch out, just like roar, meaning it can't really calm mind up against zapdos, and unboosted psychics really don't do a whole lot to it, so celebi gets pressure stalled quite quickly. Neither leech seed nor psychic have a whole lot of pp. Roar has more utility, but toxic has potentially harsher consequences. I think the argument between toxic and roar really depends on the team, however i do feel both are better than hidden power in nearly all situations on defensive zapdos.
Here's hoping this thread isn't dead.

I nominate Milotic for A Rank, Salamence for S. Milotic is a great mixed tank, easily on par with Suicune and Swampert. Primary reasons: ResTalk activates Marvel Scale, making it even bulkier on the Physical side to pair with that base 125 SpDef. Double status is really handy for shutting down both Offensive and stall teams, as a big attacker like CBMence/Gross can be slept or put on the clock by Toxic. Recover is another big niche, as Milotic can run it and gain an extra moveslot instead of Sleep Talk. Finally, Ice Beam guarantees a OHKO on Mence, which is really handy in case one will try and stay in to do damage. Milotic is a top level wall with a lot of uses that belongs in A.

Salamence is easily the most dominant mon in ADV (next to Tyranitar), and should see way more usage than it is seeing. CBMence hits like a nuke, and with it's coverage means almost anything will die within a few hits. This set is the primary reason why every team runs a Swampert, Suicune or Milotic. DDMence is an amazing sweeper once Skarm is gone (Magneton), and with prior damage, spikes and/or a DD gotten off, even Suicune will be wrecked by the onslaught of this thing. Lastly are the Wish and MixMence sets, which are a lot better than they appear. MixMence is excellent at wall breaking and clearing the way for other sweepers, and Toxic spamming should not be ignored, as Salamence attracts Bulky Waters who hate being Poisoned. Salamence can also Wish pass really nicely, especially since its presence can give stuff a free switch in. Toxic spamming is again annoying, and Flamethrower teaches Spikers their place. This thing is the most threatening and dominant mon in OU, and belongs in S.

So yeah, Milotic for A Rank, Mence for S Rank.
If you think mence is more dominant than gar cune cele lax zap or even skarm and dug then I don't think you've played much. It's great but not S. Bulky cune takes less than half from +1 hp fly btw.
since my friend BKC already told you why salamence is not that dominant, I'll tell you why milotic is the worst bulky water of all. sure, it's the only bulky water that has access to a reliable recovery move such as recover, but it doesn't end up helping to take hits like the others in the physical side. it has the worst defense compared to the top bulky waters (suicune, swampert), meaning it's taking more from salamence, tar, metagross, another physical sweeper. it doesn't have the rock typing like swampert to ressist rock slide, so it isn't an ensured win against aero and dd/cb tyranitar because they can flinch it at some point while you just spam recover. secondly, suicune has a much bigger defense stat (115>79), so in terms of a physical wall it just gets outclassed, and suicune can use calm mind. having a bigger special defense is almost meaningless because most of cm'ers will set up on your face while your surfs will do ~20% at +1, and you don't have roar so you'll have to switch. milotic can't either give team support besides light screen? which is not used commonly, so even vaporeon can fit better on teams given its wish support.

for this reasons, i think milotic is outclassed by the other bulky waters in the tier so it fits well where it is.
Yeah darn. Didn't really think of those.

Just Mence is probably my favorite mon in ADV due to the above reasons (I've never used the Wish set but still), and an offensive team that gets up spikes and forces switched can make Mence shine. And I've never really faced CMSpam so Milotic works nicely for me: Double Status is surprisingly deadly in the right circumstances as it can at least put Suicune on a clock against CMSpam. Also ResTalk Milotic thanks to Marvel Scale gets a lot more Physically bulky (like bulkier than Suicune), and can threaten a lot off stuff at the same time thanks to status and a nice SpA. Sorry if I sounded like a noob, I just think those two are really nice and solid mons
Imo some of the rank should be separated, for example having magneton and vaporeon in the same rank is bugging me a lot, Magneton is a key member in offensive teams, trapping skarm / forre and checking fire punch less gengar with a restalk set while vaporeon is not that great and easily replacable, magneton should be B+ at least, even A-.
Milotic's special defense does have some merit to it seeing as it can temporarily handly cm bliss, defensive cm celebi, and a few other weak special attackers thanks to toxic. Being able to force defensive cune to rest is also handy. I personally think it's a better dd mence answer than suicune or swampert, dd mence doesn't really hit all that hard so the defense isn't a huge problem, but thanks to recover it doesn't get worn down as easily as the other two bulky waters. Milotic is also the best answer to mixed attackers like pursuit tar and mixmence, and shuts down endeavor pert for all that's worth. The problem though is that it can't do jack against cb mence, metagross, aerodactyl, and cb/dd tar without some serious luck, which means it's kind of failing at its role as a bulky water. It is a decent poke though, it's main value is that nothing can really scare it too bad thanks to decent mixed defenses, and recover. I hate the restalk set though. It just becomes a cune that needs to be asleep to tank hits better, doesn't have pressure, and can't set up calm minds. Recover is milotic's main niche. Use it. As for mence, it is nowhere near as good as the s tier mons. It just doesn't hit hard enough without a choice band. The choice band set is pretty good, but I hate using sand weak cbers, and it kind of takes away mence's ability to check certain things. Pursuit tar can really screw it up as well. Wishmence can be annoying, but it isn't really needed on most teams, which limits its usefulness. mixmence i've come around on though, it's alright, but nowhere near good enough to make it s tier. Mence is too easy to stop unlike ttar and cune, it's not nearly as versatile as gengar or celebi, and doesn't provide the immense utility that certain sets of any of those pokemon can provide.

Magneton i can see merit to moving up. Even outside of it's niche of trapping steels, the restalk set is quite useful as long as your opponent doesn't have dugtrio, and the regular status set can be very difficult to switch in on. Blissey just gets forced out by toxic, snorlax doesn't like taking those super powerful thunderbolts, and can be forced into a rest loop, it also can't break its subs at +0 if it isn't running eq. Ground types don't like toxic, and have to also worry about the hidden power of choice. It's not entirely useless when there are no steels to kill.


Big Stew
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Champion
Hey guys, I just thought I'd give you my ranking - obviously here there's a degree of personal preference.

Tyranitar - this guy is honestly a step up from anyone else in the whole tier. So versatile, so powerful, a huge game-changer. If you don't have this guy in your team, you already have a small disadvantage before the battle starts. His DD set is just amazing and one of the lategame's best mons, his CB set hits like a truck, and his Pursuit set single-handedly makes Forretress viable. He also brings sand to the table which is a valuable asset against things like Cune and Curselax. I think that while being a step above everyone he's also very good for the meta, as otherwise ADV would be much slower and less interactive.


As opposed to ordering my mons 1 by 1, I'm gonna break them into blocks of guys who are on a par with each other - the differences in viability are too marginal, and often you're comparing one thing with something very different.


Skarmory - by far the best Spiker, amazing defense and utility mon. Unlike Forry, he actually checks things and can't be set up on as he can phaze.
Gengar - like Ttar, he's powerful and versatile. People think of him primarily to block spin, but he can only block Forry's and Cloy's spin, as he loses to Starmie and Claydol. His real strength is his status with Wisp and Hypnosis (the former can single-handedly neuter physical offense) and ability to pop guys like Bliss with a boom. He has a great ablilty in Levitate, allowing him to get in on guys like Flygon. Gar is a very dangerous mon.
Suicune - I changed my mind on this one, partially due to the communal disapproval at my previous ranking of him. The offensive set is super strong, especially with the right support (i.e. on a CM spam team), and the defensive set is very powerful late-game. That being said, I think Cune's hurt by Spikes and Sand a lot and is not as good at switching in as he's made out to be, which is why he's not number 2.
Snorlax - This is maybe a controversial one, but I think Lax is well up here. I think Curselax on its own is low B tier, but the reason this guy is up here is the boom. This guy played right will always trade 1 for 1, sometimes 2 for 1. A utility Lax is one of the best mons early game to set up for a strong lategame. He also checks quite a few special attackers and can keep them at bay while you set up for your own big guns to come out.

Heracross - so underrated it's criminal. You build around this guy, he'll win you games. With SD, a Sub and a Salac Berry, he's one of the few true sweepers. He can play wallbreaker too with Focus Punch - ever since Skarms stopped running Drill Peck/HP Flying, FPunch became super strong on SD Lefties Hera. Warning though, this guy does need considerable support to be used at his full potential.
Celebi - not as good as before. Can't stand up to Spikes, Sand, and Dug everywhere and new stuff like HP Bug Aero. That being said, still great with Leech Seed, or with the offensive CM set on the right kind of team.
Swampert - keeps a LOT of mons in check. Sticks around for a long time as long as he doesn't get poisoned, and dishes out his own poison too. Very solid pick, and also hidden OP on the right teams with Endeavor.
Aerodactyl - fast, powerful, the cleanup crew. When the fighting draws to a close, the buzzards swoop down for the bodies. Fast as Sonic and Usain Bolt's lovechild, this guy's the finisher.
Metagross - like Lax, all about the boom. This guy pops early and takes a big fat tank down with him, and suddenly the opposing team looks a lot weaker. A godsend for physical offense teams.

Zapdos - the bird can Sleep Talk and phaze, or it can hit hard and keep momentum with BP. Modest Zap hits hard, but offensive Zaps are stopped cold by Blissey.
Dugtrio - traps quite a number of mons and opens up holes that can be exploited by all sorts of teams, most often CM spam or stall. Also outspeeds +1 DDtar - shame Jolly can't oneshot a full health dino with the right EVs. I actually prefer Adamant to Jolly on a lot of my Dugs, unless i'm really scared of Kou.
Blissey - I don't like to use her myself, but I hate to play against her too. She keeps a lot of mons in check, and plays best on a slow team with Spikes. CM is a nice set, but it's a shame you lose out on a little bulk and SToss and Toxic there.
Magneton - this guy's clutch as fuck, and his trapping ability on Skarm pretty much makes physical hyper offense viable. Traps Forry too, which is sweet.
Flygon - relevant as ever, very hard to switch into with Spikes and Sand support, and also not vulnerable to either of them. Great vs DDtar. The 4x Ice weak is probably what holds it back most.
Jirachi - better on paper than in practice - he wins a lot of 1v1s, but at times he can be a momentum loser - also trapped by Dug which is annoying. Superachi is fun and powerful.



Salamence - some people won't like him this low, but who can honestly say that DDmence strikes fear into them? CBmence, Elemence, and Wishmence are better sets than DD (Elemence is the best imo), but unfortunately DD's the one that's most often used.
Starmie - spins but does nothing else. If your team doesn't like spikes, then this guy will always get his spin off. Unfortunately he poses no other threat, as things like Bliss laugh at him.
Forretress - the second Spiker. Notable for having spin, but is a poor user as it has no built-in ability to beat Gar. Explosion is nice but weaker than other booms. Earthquake is great for Mag, and HP Fire is nice for mirror matches. Unfortunately, this guy has chronic 4MSS.
Porygon2 - this guy's both the anti-Dugtrio measure, and a defensive pivot in his own right. Not as Toxic weak as would seem with his ability to trace Natural Cure, but doesn't take too kindly to Spikes and Sand.


Raikou - I know some people rate him higher, but his issue is that he needs a lot of support - he's a high-maintenace mon. I put Hera, another high-maintenance mon, far higher up the list as he brings far better results in practice, and is more flexible than Kou as well - Kou only fits on one specific kind of team.
Gyarados - can do well in the right conditions - his typing is very good, but it's a shame that he gets so hard-walled by the untrappable and hard-to-bait Zapdos. Double-Edge is poor as it means you have to forgo Taunt, which means you actually lose to the Toxic-carrying Waters you once set up on. Also absolutely REQUIRES Mag, as he'lll do nothing otherwise. RestTalk is fun on the right kind of team.
Jolteon - fast like Ramadan, good for keeping up momentum with BP, but too squishy and weak to the elements to last until late, and too easily walled to punch holes early. Can be good roaring with spikes in midgame though.
Claydol - spins too, not quite as reliably as Starmie. Even more dead weight than Star and probably less durable too due to lack of Natural Cure. Counters Taunt DDtar hard, which is nice.


Cloyster - the third Spiker. Not durable like Skarm and Forry, but has better boom targets and can hurt Gar somewhat with Surfs. You probably won't get to Spin with it - this guy sets up Spikes and goes pop.
Regice - better on paper than in practice. Would be really good if it had a better Attack stat - booms and Focus Punches are still really weak with a lot of EVs, and having these moves mean that less EVs can go towards Special Attack. Defensive Ice is too weak to the elements to last long. Use Blissey instead for special walling purposes.
Houndoom - the other pursuiter, used when you don't want sand, i.e. you have a Curselax. Has Wisp and is slightly more specially powerful and fast than Tar, but is painfully squishy and fails to do its job more often than Tar. Often the no sand thing backfires too as they probably have a Tar.
Medicham - very hard to use but very powerful. High risk, high reward.
Vaporeon - not used it much myself but I know a lot of good ADVers got a soft spot for this guy.
Slaking - this guy fell hugely out of favour but is still strong when used right IMO. He's a hard-to-play mon, but the returns are great if you predict well.
Charizard - this guy hits ridiculously hard. Requires some decent team support but can do some serious damage if you pet him right. Has the potential to do nothing sometimes though, not very consistent.
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Big Stew
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Champion
i cut off the S rank so everything naturally shifts a few places down. don't compare this to Mcms list, A there doesnt mean the same as A here
suicune's 5th best overall for me, I was tempted by a+ for him and switching him and lax
Im ok with suicune being A tier, it's not as good as people say it is. Sure it's hard to counter, but it's really vulnerable to hax and residual damage. Then again so is lax. I would put blissey in the A tier personally, the calm mind set is just too good. It's one of the few tanks that doesn't really care about residual damage, and has a pretty easy time outliving it's counters, who tend to be fairly dugtrio weak. This also allows it to check the things it needs to check in the early game, and still be able to pull off a sweep in the late game. One softboiled, and a switch out of status, and it's as good as new. I don't think the loss in bulk is a huge deal, as it's really only marginal. Blissey only needs physical defense evs, you can max out the special attack with a modest nature and barely notice the loss in bulk. I don't think the support sets are that good anymore though, although the toxic set that forgoes the support moves is decent for it's ability to reliably check opposing cm bliss, as well as surpassing cm bliss in the role of taking on offensive celebi and raikou, as it doesn't have to worry as much about crits. It also acts as a good forretress lure if you run flamethrower, which is an exceedingly annoying poke.


B is for BRUTUS
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Pretty good rankings, just gonna post here what I told you on IRC already

Drop Celebi to A-Rank, below Snorlax.
Drop Salamence all the way down to behind Aerodactyl, and also up Zapdos/Dactyl ahead of Swampert (maybe) but ahead of Dugtrio (definitely) and swap them.
A-Rank should then look something like: Snorlax, Celebi, Metagross, Skarmory, (Swampert?), Aerodactyl, Zapdos, (Swampert?), Dugtrio, Salamence, and from here everything unchanged.
Except for Starmie, drop it down to B-Rank as it's quite awful, probably somewhere around Claydol.
I'd up Magneton, maybe even up to A-Rank, but this is a discussion we had already and I can understand your points, it's definitely better than Forretress and probably Porygon2/Milotic too.
Jolteon is severly underrated and I don't care about C-Rank stuff sorry :o

Trying not to be too biased against Swampert; if anyone asked my real opinion it'd probably be mid~low B-Rank though ;]

what are you even saying?
Um it's a pokemon that's meant to use its bulk in order to last, and yet it's vulnerable to both spikes and sand and only has rest for recovery. What else is there to say? I'm not saying it's bad, it's amazing, just that i can see why triangles may have put it in that rank.

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