OU ADV OU Viability Ranking

[Lord Ninjax]

Now that my true purpose of getting this thread rolling is complete (hehehe), you can see my real suggestions (I was joking about Mence, Milo I was semi-serious)

I agree with most of Triangles rankings: the shift down is slightly eh but I definitely agree that T-Tar is the most dominant mon in ADV, who can play on pretty much any team. Suicune's glory days are over due to the prevalence of TSS, and Celebi has also taken a hit due to that, plus its plethora of weaknesses.

Skarm may not be that worthy of A+ as his only real niche is reliably getting down a layer or two of Spikes, as he cannot take on Magneton at all. Though you cant set up on him, most (if not all teams) with a physical setup sweeper have Magneton waiting in the wings to trap Skarm. Plus his SpDef, even with investment is a little lacking meaning he doesn't hold up against CMSpam that well (though sure he can hurt them with Spikes). Skarmory definitely deserves A, just I feel A+ is stretching it a bit.

Mence I have a huge soft spot for (I started out in Gen 5 and my favorite team was DragMag), but either way he deserves better than B+. Sure DDMence is overhyped insanely, but underestimating his other sets is not smart (CBMence makes Milotic and CroCune viable, while MixMence is easily one of the best wall breakers around. Magneton usually tags along to trap the pesky Skarm). CBMence is also a great pivot as it allows you to bring in something on a bulky water (MixMence with Black Belt can do this pretty nicely too, thanks Dekzeh), while if you get spikes or sand up it can wear down said bulky water. I admit S was a really long shot (wasn't sure if we were doing A+/- back then), but it does belong in A- at least as it is one of ADV's top 10 mons, and top 5 (if not 3) offensive mons. The power it brings to the table and momentum it can grab are no joke.

Lastly, Claydol to B+. Okay this is kinda halfhearted but Claydol is a pretty cool mon (do not underestimate those 105/120 defenses). It spins nicely, does not take damage from Sandstorm or Spikes, and is not complete Gengar bait (sorry Forry). Plus, it can wall Taunt DD-Tar and CBMence really nicely, while threatening them with EQ and Ice Beam. Sure a ton of common weaknesses set it back but it's definitely more durable that Starmie at least. (How on Earth did Triangles say that Starmie is more durable, sure Toxic is annoying but Starmie does not have the stats to be a defensive mon)

 

[MoxieInfinite]

Now that my true purpose of getting this thread rolling is complete (hehehe), you can see my real suggestions (I was joking about Mence, Milo I was semi-serious)

Easy to say now...

 

[Lord Ninjax]

Easy to say now...

Believe what you want I don't care cause I succeeded.

 

[Stef0w]

You guys cant really be talking about droping suicune??

It's the second best poke in the game, and can win games from turn one if unprepared for.

Celebi reminds me a lot of (I know this is ruins of alph, but it works) mega pinsir in the current meta, it's amazingly good for a while, then everything starts carring moves to nail it, and it falls out of favor.

Give it a month or two, and the thing explodes back on the field, since everybody forgot about it, so changing it's rank would just end up a circle-jerk.

Heck, I would not be opposed to trying out salamence in S-Rank, he hits hard, and is pretty damn versitile, but maybe that's casue he's a blast to use.

Here's a low-ladder match showing what happens without a decent answer to suicune (you can argue he kind of did, which proves my point http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3oubeta-153766723

 

[Lord Ninjax]

You guys cant really be talking about droping suicune??

It's the second best poke in the game, and can win games from turn one if unprepared for.

Celebi reminds me a lot of (I know this is ruins of alph, but it works) mega pinsir in the current meta, it's amazingly good for a while, then everything starts carring moves to nail it, and it falls out of favor.

Give it a month or two, and the thing explodes back on the field, since everybody forgot about it, so changing it's rank would just end up a circle-jerk.

Heck, I would not be opposed to trying out salamence in S-Rank, he hits hard, and is pretty damn versitile, but maybe that's casue he's a blast to use.

Yeah, dude, Suicune is cool and all, just it has a lot of issues in the current meta. Primarily it's the prevalence of TSS Stall, as Spikes and Toxic can wear Suicune down and kill its ability to take hits, while Sand negates leftovers recovery. This is big as Suicune's main selling point is as a great Physical wall, now it's being forced to compete with Swampert (who ignores Sand, plus has better offenses and Toxic), and Milotic (Double Status is annoying, and Marvel Scale+ResTalk makes it so darn bulky). SubCMCune is still a beast, but again the meta is finding ways to counter it, primarily Sand keeps it from putting up an indefinite amount of Subs, Snorlax can threaten it a lot due to its power and Special Bulk, same with CMBlissey (Who can set up with it turn for turn), and a ton of faster attackers who can pick it off late game when its worn down. Suicune is still a versatile and useful Mon, just not the force it was early ADV. A Rank suits it fine.

And yeah: That replay was not real proof as that was a pretty awful team he used, period. No high level, or even Medium level (ie me) player would use that kind of team even just for fun.....too awful.

 

[dadoux]

Suicune is a pain in the ass for every team, it can be played as an offensive and defensive cmer, it has crazy bulk, his typing is good enough, and even if you have something like celebi / lax or cmblissey you can still end-up losing to it (cmwar crit / roarcm / dugtrio trapp and stuff), it's crazy hard to prepare and having something that can revenge kill it like zapdos is like a good enough counter (you can check it with stuff roar vaporeon, but +1 hp elec will do a lot and he can comeback without any problem). You can't trap it, you pretty much can't OHKO it besides a boom from lax / gross (losing one mon to counter cune, yeah that's still a win for the cune user)

Suicune is the all-around perfect pokemon, i can't see it being less than S rank, face it : it's crazy good.

 

[Cowboy Dan]

I always felt like cune needs support from a second bulky water type unless it's on a cm spam team or something else that doesn't need a bulky water. On stall or balanced teams though it just gets spread too thin if you're using it to take your opponents physical attackers. If you use it for its role as a sweeper and pressure staller, and don't expose it to your team's physical attackers, it's great, and is for me tied with dd tar as one of the best win conditions there is, but it kind of limits team building. There's also the issue that it shares with curselax when compared to faster win conditions, in that it is more likely to get haxed. It's slow, so it's usually meant to take a hit in order to dish one out, this means it is taking more hits than a fast sweeper, couple this with the longer amount of time it takes to set cune up, and you can see why cune is statistically more likely to get crit or flinched or whatever. These hax are also more relevant on cune because if it takes that extra damage it's harder for it to take hits, which it needs to do, and if it doesn't die, it has to rest and be useless for 3 turns. If this stuff doesn't happen, there is little an opponent can do to stop it, which is why it should be S tier, but these vulnerabilities which can often cost games make it arguable to move it down.

 

[Triangles]

Fine, you guys have changed my mind - I reckon Cune probably deserves A+, mainly on the merit of the offensive set being really powerful with good support. Defensive Cune is similar to (but better than) Curselax in that he's a bulky sweeper who can't switch in too much early game and is vulnerable to sand and Spikes, and is liable to lose momentum for the team from being forced to Rest, and is at his strongest in the lategame. That being said, he's one of the best 'last mons' in the game and in the right conditions, i.e. out of sand and healthy, can be very difficult to break, especially with Pressure. I wouldn't advocate any higher than A+ for Cune, as I think it can be agreed that no other mon is on a par with TTar.

 

[dadoux]

Crocune and snorlax are different in the way that
1/ Snorlax can't spam his stabb like suicune does because gengar is everywhere so he needs to have another offensive move, which means he lacks sleep talk and you can set-up something during his sleep turns
2/ Snorlax can be beaten to death by things like CBttar / Gross even at +1, where suicune's typing is giving only special weaknesses, which are easier to deal with without a special boom attack / choice specs / special boosting besides cm
3/ Suicune got an enormous bulk, where snorlax can't tank repeated special hits like offensive cune's hydro pump and stuff even if he his supposed to be a more offensive special tank than blissey.

Both are stopped by Perish Song celebi though, for the rest set-up sets i mean, offensive cune can do a lot with ice beam before perish song ends, snorlax is easier to switch on with skarmory for example.

 

[musicaltide]

I also think that Suicune should be dropped to A+ tier. Crocune is screwed by Leech Seed/CM/Perish Song Celebi, can be easily phazed out early/mid-game by Zapdos, and is beaten one-on-one by Modest CM Blissey (unless you pack a lot of SpDef EVs which weakens cune's survivability against physical threats like CB/DD Mence and Lax). Offensive Sub/CM/Surf/Ice Beam cune is also stopped by CM Blissey and Perish/CM Celebi, and with sandstorm up cune has even less of a chance to fish for needed crits. CM/Roar/Rest cune is walled by Celebi and Zapdos, and can be forced to rest with Toxic Milotic or Toxic Blissey, or even constant Thunderbolts from CM Blissey, and then can be easily phazed out.

Basically, many stall/balanced teams have checks for Suicune, and since Suicune has no reliable form of recovery, once it's forced to rest, physical attackers like Ttar and Mence have free reign unless, as Cowboy Dan pointed out, the team has another bulky water or Skarmory to counter said physical threats. The exception to this is Rest/Roar/Sleeptalk Cune, which is an incredible bulky water and phazer, being useful even while sleeping. However, this variant can't deal with thunderbolt users as well as the cm ones, is walled easily, and sleep talk has a chance to fail at the most crucial moments.

Cune is great, but just not as good as it used to be with the increased usage of CM Blissey.

 

[MoxieInfinite]

Then run cm roar n_n

 

[Lord Ninjax]

Crocune and snorlax are different in the way that
1/ Snorlax can't spam his stabb like suicune does because gengar is everywhere so he needs to have another offensive move, which means he lacks sleep talk and you can set-up something during his sleep turns
2/ Snorlax can be beaten to death by things like CBttar / Gross even at +1, where suicune's typing is giving only special weaknesses, which are easier to deal with without a special boom attack / choice specs / special boosting besides cm
3/ Suicune got an enormous bulk, where snorlax can't tank repeated special hits like offensive cune's hydro pump and stuff even if he his supposed to be a more offensive special tank than blissey.

Both are stopped by Perish Song celebi though, for the rest set-up sets i mean, offensive cune can do a lot with ice beam before perish song ends, snorlax is easier to switch on with skarmory for example.

Several points with flaws

Gengar is everywhere but it is really the only ghost viable in competitive play (no-one uses Dusclops). Also, it has a gigantic weakness: Losing to MixTar with Pursuit. MixTar traps and crushes Gengar seven days a week, allowing CurseLax to sweep easily late game (I edited an RMT of mine for this formula and it worked wonders before school got me off laddering 24/7 to maybe an hour a week.)

Usually also Lax can get off 2-3 Curses which kills its weakness to those CB Mons you mentioned, and if it carries Earthquake they lose anyways. Meanwhile, Suicune unless it's carrying HP Electric cant beat ResTalk Skarm, (and it needs to run Sub to setup safely), while Skarm won't go in on Lax fearing a surprise Fire Blast (you never know). Suicune's bulk is also not that enormous, as its defensive stats are 100/115/115, which are good for tanking if invested plus a CM up, otherwise it can't tank a lot. This especially hurts cause Suicune's main task is not as a sweeper, it's as a bulky water, meaning as Dan said, it has to be paired with other CMers like Celebi or another Bulky Water to succeed. ResTalk Roar Cune is good, but it's flaw is the inability to deal with special threats. MoxieInfinite, do you even play ADV? CM+Roar means that Cune either forgoes Sleep Talk, and the ability to Rest without effectively disabling itself, or Surf, which kills its ability to sweep and makes it total Taunt Bait. Suicune's offensive sweeper set puts it in A+, but its defensive sets no longer hold up and even the offensive set has its issues with CM Blissey. Suicune was fine in A, A+ is pretty nice for it, so please stop trying to push it to S. Nothing in ADV is on Tyranitar's level, that powerful, or versatile, and nothing ever will be. So please accept Suicune being in A+

 

[Cowboy Dan]

eh pursuit tar isn't that reliable in taking out gar. It has to worry about hypnosis, as well as spikes + giga drain, especially if you don't have crunch. Pursuit tar also brings sand which snorlax is not a huge fan of, of course sand will usually be up whether you bring ttar or not, but lax really shines in those instances where it's not there. Pursuit tar alone isn't a reliable enough to handle gar, so this means you have to have snorlax, pursuit tar and a poke that can handle gengar if you want to go with that strategy. Also, cune is way better vs skarm, even if lax has fire blast. Fire blast from lax just doesn't do that much, and misses all the time. Surf does more than hp electric as well. 70 * 2 < 95 * 1.5. Curselax is inferior to cune, its boom sets are the best ones.

 

[dadoux]

Suicune's bulk is also not that enormous.

Dude what do you need, the millenium shield from yu-gi-oh????

And you know that hydro-pump does more damage than hp elec on skamory, right?

 

[Bad Ass]

The only Suicune that is really viable is Rest / Sleep Talk / Calm Mind / Roar. Rest + ST is for nice healing and not being setup bait while you sleep, Calm Mind allows you to take on numerous special attackers such as Gengar, Zapdos, Tyranitar, Blissey, and Regice. Roar allows you to beat other CM Suicune as well as some niche threats such as CM Blissey and CM Celebi 1v1, as you can CM up with them and then Roar them out. Also really nice for racking up hazard damage.

 

[Lord Ninjax]

The only Suicune that is really viable is Rest / Sleep Talk / Calm Mind / Roar. Rest + ST is for nice healing and not being setup bait while you sleep, Calm Mind allows you to take on numerous special attackers such as Gengar, Zapdos, Tyranitar, Blissey, and Regice. Roar allows you to beat other CM Suicune as well as some niche threats such as CM Blissey and CM Celebi 1v1, as you can CM up with them and then Roar them out. Also really nice for racking up hazard damage.

2 Words only: Taunt Bait

 

[Cowboy Dan]

How often do you see taunt in adv? there are like 3 mons that run it.

 

[Lord Ninjax]

How often do you see taunt in adv? there are like 3 mons that run it.

Yeah, but when they're Gengar, Tyranitar, Skarm.....they're everywhere and can set up brutally on Cune (okay maybe Taunt+DDTar is outdated but it would have a field day against this Cune).

 

[dadoux]

You feel sad when bad ass's troll set makes more sense than any of the things Ninjax said

 

[Bad Ass]

You feel sad when bad ass's troll set makes more sense than any of the things Ninjax said

Make no mistake boy, my set is no troll. Sit your behind down before I am forced to paddle your ass.

 

[Cowboy Dan]

cune doesn't need attack moves to sweep, it's legendary, do you even watch the anime?

 

[Bedschibaer]

Daily reminder to not shitpost in viability rankings threads

 

[Lord Ninjax]

cune doesn't need attack moves to sweep, it's legendary, do you even watch the anime?

This is what Cowboy Dan thinks:
Suicune used Calm Mind! The foe's Salamence fainted.

Get real dude. I cant believe that we've gone from a debate on Suicune being S Rank, to random praise of it being 'legendary', and hating on the guy correcting your mistakes.

No hate to Bad Ass's set though, aside from being taunt bait it's actually quite nice, combining the things that Cune needs to succeed: Safe recovery, the ability to wall Special Attackers and Phaze out setup sweepers. Just pack ResTalk Magneton to beat Skarm and Gengar.

 

[Cowboy Dan]

dude... ok back on topic, sorry about that post it was insensitive. err... can we talk about flygon? i think it's a pretty underrated mon, decent defenses combined with a great typing + ability make it really hard to wear down, and a great check to certain attackers, ie ddtar and certain mixtar, It has somewhat ok attack backed by STAB eq, good speed, and depending on its move set can make some of its common counters weary about switching in. Skarm doesn't like fire blast, celebi doesn't like hp bug, and waters + salamence don't like toxic, It has some pretty serious 4 move slot syndrome, and gengar can switch in pretty freely (although it doesn't like cb rock slides), another problem is outside of eq, most of its moves don't hit very hard unless they're super effective. So this is problematic especially with the choice band set as you can capitalize on the desire to press eq with one of the many pokemon that is immune to it. In this very spikes + sand dominated meta, it has very huge utility in its ability to recover health through leftovers alone, better than just about anything. I don't really think it should be moved at all, but just wanted to ask what people's opinions are?

Edit: forgot to add, the jolly max speed choice band set can also act as a revenge killer against cm offense. It will always outspeed hp fire celebi, at worst speed ties vs jirachi, and isn't going to get ko'd against non hp ice raikou unless they have considerable boosts. It can't trap things like dugtrio can obviously, but it will kill anything that tries to test flygon's speed to keep their boosts, and at least forces them out preventing a sweep from happening right then and there. it can work for teams that need something with a bit more defensive utility, and attack power than duggy.

 

[Stef0w]

I like flygon a lot, fast, hits hard, usually always pulls it's weight, pecfect placement for him imo.

A poke I would like ranked is acually venusaur, The thing is imo severely underated, and could easily rank up there with cacturne, breloom and sceptile.

Decent speed, good bulk, has sleep powder over sceptile, better speed than cac, and loom, and a poison typing to eat up all the hidden power bug users.

C-rank would suffice.