camerupt is notably worse when waters are much faster than they were before, if it had a bit more speed it'd be better probably. i definitely don't see kingdra which is a very potent cleaner on zap dug offenses, as remotely being in the same tier of effectiveness as camerupt. the one sort of team where i'd like camerupt is prob stacking dugtrio weaks+p2 cune/rupt/p2/jira style stuff, outside of that i think it's incredibly mediocre. maybe that's more reflective of kingdra being deserving of a higher rank than of camerupt not belonging in the same rank though
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OU ADV OU Viability Ranking
- Thread starter McMeghan
- Start date
There's sure to be a lot of drama following Hclat and Marcop's SPL game, and before all the hellstorm ensues, I would like to propose a solution to Baton Pass.
It's broken. We all know it's broken, and something needs to be done about it. I'm in favor of keeping as many mons in the game as possible, so here is the solution I would suggest:
Implement the Speed + Other Stat part of the BW BP clause, and max teams out to 3 phasers per team, unlike BW. Speed pass is largely what allows chains to function, and even if we ban Mr. Mime, teams are still susceptible to full pass cheese bullshit. Should Mime still be an issue even after we implement the BW BP Clause, then I propose we look at Mr. Mime.
(for the record, the only notable niches the BW clause would remove would be stuff like BP Scizor or AgiliPass Zap with a pinch berry.)
It's broken. We all know it's broken, and something needs to be done about it. I'm in favor of keeping as many mons in the game as possible, so here is the solution I would suggest:
Implement the Speed + Other Stat part of the BW BP clause, and max teams out to 3 phasers per team, unlike BW. Speed pass is largely what allows chains to function, and even if we ban Mr. Mime, teams are still susceptible to full pass cheese bullshit. Should Mime still be an issue even after we implement the BW BP Clause, then I propose we look at Mr. Mime.
(for the record, the only notable niches the BW clause would remove would be stuff like BP Scizor or AgiliPass Zap with a pinch berry.)
As an outsider looking in, didn't seem like Marcop brought much of the standard stuff that would normally hinder full pass, making the style appear stronger than it actually is in his match.
No Tyranitar present stood out to me, as it is near ubiquitous in usage and unanimously agreed upon as the best mon in the tier. This means no sand stream, so the full pass team had a much easier time sustaining itself.
Mime blocks roar, but full pass has no stop for whirlwind to my knowledge (Cradily?), and Skarmory remains an incredible and highly used mon at this time; they even creep speed for other Skarm/Magneton and run taunt frequently, which frustrates full pass even more.
Fast leads like Zapdos and Mence would also stop Smeargle in its tracks and apply a lot of pressure to Ninjask, which itself is put on a timer for sub passing when faced with sand.
I think BKC said in a recent video that full pass is too inconsistent for him to truly regard it as viable, and I'm inclined to agree with that perspective. It also isn't uncompetitive/luck based like Sand Veil; there are numerous roadblocks to its consistency that are largely present in the current metagame, and top players' perceived viability of full pass' usual suspects is reflected in the rankings. One match shouldn't really change much, we should regard it as an outlier until more problematic instances surface.
I will say I do empathize with any victims of full pass though, fuck that cheesy bullshit
No Tyranitar present stood out to me, as it is near ubiquitous in usage and unanimously agreed upon as the best mon in the tier. This means no sand stream, so the full pass team had a much easier time sustaining itself.
Mime blocks roar, but full pass has no stop for whirlwind to my knowledge (Cradily?), and Skarmory remains an incredible and highly used mon at this time; they even creep speed for other Skarm/Magneton and run taunt frequently, which frustrates full pass even more.
Fast leads like Zapdos and Mence would also stop Smeargle in its tracks and apply a lot of pressure to Ninjask, which itself is put on a timer for sub passing when faced with sand.
I think BKC said in a recent video that full pass is too inconsistent for him to truly regard it as viable, and I'm inclined to agree with that perspective. It also isn't uncompetitive/luck based like Sand Veil; there are numerous roadblocks to its consistency that are largely present in the current metagame, and top players' perceived viability of full pass' usual suspects is reflected in the rankings. One match shouldn't really change much, we should regard it as an outlier until more problematic instances surface.
I will say I do empathize with any victims of full pass though, fuck that cheesy bullshit
Hi folks, I want to impart my thoughts on what should be done about the current state of the ADV OU tier. I have been pushing for reform to the sort of teams that we witnessed last night from Hclat in SPL for a very long time.
The problem in question is the existence of "cheesy" team archetypes that utilise stat-chaining. Competitively, these strategies have their limitations, but they do have a an ineludible niche that needs to be addressed. The stat-passing issue is a known agitator to many ADV OU players. eg. Marcop's reaction last night.
I do not believe that the solution to this issue is a tier-wide, blanket ban on baton pass
ADV is a separate tier, and needs to be addressed by the players that know it well and them alone. I do have a proposed solution to the metagame flaws that we are experiencing, and it does contain further refinement. I also acknowledge that many people have different opinions on the topic. This means that we need to leave the final decision into the hands of ADV stakeholders through a democratic process.
Personally, what do I believe needs to be done?
1: Ban Mr.Mime and Octillery
Mr.Mime see's no competitive usage outside of its provocative, stat-chaining set. This set see's no usage at tournament level, and I would wager that most adv stakeholders would like to see it removed from the tier.
This is the very same for Octillery, but it is a different threat. Octillery is a final receiver that annihilates teams without Blissey.
Many people will point out that "provocative" is subjective and that some people see no issue with it as it is not a profound threat. This is why we need to leave it to a vote, to hear all the relevant voices.
2: Ban chaining of more than 2 stats
Banning Mr.Mime and Octillery solves most of the problem, however, chaining is the very toxin that they enable.
The community indignance comes from teams that contain a chaining method that seeks out an endgame where the chain arrives at an all-in-on-1, receiver that has now been given the necessary stat boosts to wreak havoc. This often manifests in the form of Ninjask/Zapdos for speed, Celebi for calm mind and Vaporeon for acid armour.
At present, this form of play is not as inhibited by phasing due to abilities like Soundproof/Suction Cups. However, even if said abilities are removed, we cannot guarantee that opposing teams will have a phaser, as it is not a requirement to. This means that chaining is still possible, which it should not be.
Conclusion
I would like to see the issue put to vote by the adv council with standard requirements for voting. I know that complex bans are advised against, but the alternatives are doing nothing or doing a blanket ban that excludes strategies that give ADV veracity to its moniker as one of the most well-balanced tiers on the site.
The problem in question is the existence of "cheesy" team archetypes that utilise stat-chaining. Competitively, these strategies have their limitations, but they do have a an ineludible niche that needs to be addressed. The stat-passing issue is a known agitator to many ADV OU players. eg. Marcop's reaction last night.
I do not believe that the solution to this issue is a tier-wide, blanket ban on baton pass
ADV is a separate tier, and needs to be addressed by the players that know it well and them alone. I do have a proposed solution to the metagame flaws that we are experiencing, and it does contain further refinement. I also acknowledge that many people have different opinions on the topic. This means that we need to leave the final decision into the hands of ADV stakeholders through a democratic process.
Personally, what do I believe needs to be done?
1: Ban Mr.Mime and Octillery
Mr.Mime see's no competitive usage outside of its provocative, stat-chaining set. This set see's no usage at tournament level, and I would wager that most adv stakeholders would like to see it removed from the tier.
This is the very same for Octillery, but it is a different threat. Octillery is a final receiver that annihilates teams without Blissey.
Many people will point out that "provocative" is subjective and that some people see no issue with it as it is not a profound threat. This is why we need to leave it to a vote, to hear all the relevant voices.
2: Ban chaining of more than 2 stats
Banning Mr.Mime and Octillery solves most of the problem, however, chaining is the very toxin that they enable.
The community indignance comes from teams that contain a chaining method that seeks out an endgame where the chain arrives at an all-in-on-1, receiver that has now been given the necessary stat boosts to wreak havoc. This often manifests in the form of Ninjask/Zapdos for speed, Celebi for calm mind and Vaporeon for acid armour.
At present, this form of play is not as inhibited by phasing due to abilities like Soundproof/Suction Cups. However, even if said abilities are removed, we cannot guarantee that opposing teams will have a phaser, as it is not a requirement to. This means that chaining is still possible, which it should not be.
Conclusion
I would like to see the issue put to vote by the adv council with standard requirements for voting. I know that complex bans are advised against, but the alternatives are doing nothing or doing a blanket ban that excludes strategies that give ADV veracity to its moniker as one of the most well-balanced tiers on the site.
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I've been laddering a bit with the camel and wanted to chime in to say a couple things
a) sub + stabs + boom feels like the best set---sub lets camel hard-commit less by letting you scout out their immediate response and punishes attempts to catch booms by giving camerupt a buffer in the event they do something like switch to ttar from zapdos trying to sus out a boom on their water (if they hard gar trying to catch a boom as well and you sub you're probably in a good position as well). sub on anything prediction reliant is also just nice in general.
b) camerupt's combination of tangible (but obviously not ideal) defensive utility + ability to force in things like waters, flygon, and mence means its a great way to pile on more pressure to the end of cleaning with something like ddtar while giving some supplementary backbone against electrics, gengar, skarm, rachi, etc. offensive builds having defensive redundancy for things like zapdos is a godsend; not forcing your lax or celebi to bear that weight almost entirely opens up midgrounds quite a bit, which is especially coveted on magless offense structures that lack the minor electric defensive redundancy mag usually brings. also, twave support helps a lot obviously, as jirachi/metagross/ttar/lax being para'd restricts RK options (at least for the former 3) in a way that pairs nicely with sub (if their offensive answer is para'd and camel can ohko, they have to respond defensively, which gives you a weighed diceroll in your favor to open something up with boom or simply get more chip on something like pert). also, if they try to sack something para'd that can be ohko'd to facilitate a dug RK, sub gives you outs.
here's a sample team.
i don't really know if i can say anything about specific placement for camerupt but it certainly has some minor niche
also, re: bp---putting ninjask + mr mime up for a vote seems like the easiest solution. no (meaningful) collateral damage and the MU fishing dinguses lose their cheese. win/win imo
a) sub + stabs + boom feels like the best set---sub lets camel hard-commit less by letting you scout out their immediate response and punishes attempts to catch booms by giving camerupt a buffer in the event they do something like switch to ttar from zapdos trying to sus out a boom on their water (if they hard gar trying to catch a boom as well and you sub you're probably in a good position as well). sub on anything prediction reliant is also just nice in general.
b) camerupt's combination of tangible (but obviously not ideal) defensive utility + ability to force in things like waters, flygon, and mence means its a great way to pile on more pressure to the end of cleaning with something like ddtar while giving some supplementary backbone against electrics, gengar, skarm, rachi, etc. offensive builds having defensive redundancy for things like zapdos is a godsend; not forcing your lax or celebi to bear that weight almost entirely opens up midgrounds quite a bit, which is especially coveted on magless offense structures that lack the minor electric defensive redundancy mag usually brings. also, twave support helps a lot obviously, as jirachi/metagross/ttar/lax being para'd restricts RK options (at least for the former 3) in a way that pairs nicely with sub (if their offensive answer is para'd and camel can ohko, they have to respond defensively, which gives you a weighed diceroll in your favor to open something up with boom or simply get more chip on something like pert). also, if they try to sack something para'd that can be ohko'd to facilitate a dug RK, sub gives you outs.
here's a sample team.
this team wasn't built around camel; camel was the last addition, actually. original idea was cm pass + mixed stuff that has offensive redundancy and the capacity to switch into celebi pivots like metagross, mence, aero, blissey, etc, and camel happened to be a good glue for patching up zapdos/gengar issues + a desperate need for more offensive pressure to help tar namely (metagross switchin duty can be relegated to things like zap and molt which tar obviously doesnt need weakened at all, so camel helps put pressure on waters + gon in the event that the opposing team has a decent amount of metagross backup). i wasn't sure on hp grass or hp ice on zap. flygon is a massive pain but opposing swampert could force awkward trades with your own pert/metagross if ice zapdos is run *shrug*. also metagross evs are very weird for a mixed set but the guarantee of ohkoing fast ddtar seemed important for minimizing the windows opposing ddtar have given that pert is offensive---and consequently way easier to chip down.
i don't really know if i can say anything about specific placement for camerupt but it certainly has some minor niche
also, re: bp---putting ninjask + mr mime up for a vote seems like the easiest solution. no (meaningful) collateral damage and the MU fishing dinguses lose their cheese. win/win imo
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I wanna nominate 
to D, why, is a mon that its main purpose is to pursuit gengar, celebi mainly, which is big to let some teamates like heracross and even ttar to shine, why a metion ttar, well it lets me run another set and also a different coverage like ice beam on dd sets. Hound main 's flaw is that it is 100% dead agaisnt dug (nobody is willing to run endure + salac with sand omnipresent and the lack of lefties hold it back, not to metion the last move, that can be key, as u are going to see in this replay. Talking about other benefits, the ability of counntering moltres is very use, because many offensive teams dont pack blissey or milotic to with stand it. Many jirachi cant even scratch hound, KO skarm is nice as well. Swampert is not a good answer to it, because it can pack hp grass to hurt ttar too. So in conclusion this mon has some utility even outside of pursuit.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1297766722
to D, why, is a mon that its main purpose is to pursuit gengar, celebi mainly, which is big to let some teamates like heracross and even ttar to shine, why a metion ttar, well it lets me run another set and also a different coverage like ice beam on dd sets. Hound main 's flaw is that it is 100% dead agaisnt dug (nobody is willing to run endure + salac with sand omnipresent and the lack of lefties hold it back, not to metion the last move, that can be key, as u are going to see in this replay. Talking about other benefits, the ability of counntering moltres is very use, because many offensive teams dont pack blissey or milotic to with stand it. Many jirachi cant even scratch hound, KO skarm is nice as well. Swampert is not a good answer to it, because it can pack hp grass to hurt ttar too. So in conclusion this mon has some utility even outside of pursuit.https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1297766722
BATON PASS REGULATION TIER LIST
==============================
S tier: These are the "cream of the crop" highest-viability options that everyone should seriously consider.
-Ban Baton Pass + Soundproof and speedboost
-Ban boosting moves alongside soundproof and speedboost
A tier: These are the decent, sensible options, that would have positive ramifications if chosen.
-Ban Mr. Mime and ninjask from ADVOU
-Limit to 2 Baton pass users per team
-Ban the move baton pass from every gen except for ADV, while instating an S-tier option for ADV.
B tier: These are the misguided, but ultimately harmless (and perhaps beneficial) changes, that are sensible enough to be worth voicing.
-Ban baton pass and (mr mime, ninjask, umbreon, octillery, cradilly, exploud)
-Ban passing of more than 2 boosts
-Ban passing of speed + another stat
C tier: These are the non-standard, but usable, options for dealing with baton pass. Let's just say they aren't S-tier for a reason.
-Implement RBY mechanics such that status moves bypass substitute
-Give Camerupt the SpeedBoost ability and baton pass to diversify the FullPass metagame
-Switch Ninjask’s base stats with Shedinja
D tier: These approaches cause more problems than they solve, and they should not be considered viable in the metagame.
-Limit to 1 BP user per team
-Ban all stat passing, only allowing dry pass
-Remove Slaking’s Truant ability, allowing it to break BP chains
-Remove 3 pokemon slots from each lineup, leaving us with a 3v3 game
-Re-legalize 6xBaton Pass, Belly drum pass, ingrain pass, and/or smeargle pass.
-Buff the move perish song so that it activates after 1 turn instead of 3.
F tier: These are the galaxybrain approaches, with a primary purpose of setting up hilarious memes in the future.
-Ban baton pass from ADV
-Ban baton pass from every generation
-Ban Dugtrio or Tyranitar from ADV
-Forum-ban RienaRien (Mead) for optimizing 3xBaton Pass
-Forum-ban every who has lost a ladder game to Theasiancp3
-Censor the following words: N*nj*sk, C*mer*pt, B*ton P*ss and forum ban anyone who uses them in threads
-Tourban Thelinearcurve for failing to go 9-0 in SPL
==============================
S tier: These are the "cream of the crop" highest-viability options that everyone should seriously consider.
-Ban Baton Pass + Soundproof and speedboost
-Ban boosting moves alongside soundproof and speedboost
A tier: These are the decent, sensible options, that would have positive ramifications if chosen.
-Ban Mr. Mime and ninjask from ADVOU
-Limit to 2 Baton pass users per team
-Ban the move baton pass from every gen except for ADV, while instating an S-tier option for ADV.
B tier: These are the misguided, but ultimately harmless (and perhaps beneficial) changes, that are sensible enough to be worth voicing.
-Ban baton pass and (mr mime, ninjask, umbreon, octillery, cradilly, exploud)
-Ban passing of more than 2 boosts
-Ban passing of speed + another stat
C tier: These are the non-standard, but usable, options for dealing with baton pass. Let's just say they aren't S-tier for a reason.
-Implement RBY mechanics such that status moves bypass substitute
-Give Camerupt the SpeedBoost ability and baton pass to diversify the FullPass metagame
-Switch Ninjask’s base stats with Shedinja
D tier: These approaches cause more problems than they solve, and they should not be considered viable in the metagame.
-Limit to 1 BP user per team
-Ban all stat passing, only allowing dry pass
-Remove Slaking’s Truant ability, allowing it to break BP chains
-Remove 3 pokemon slots from each lineup, leaving us with a 3v3 game
-Re-legalize 6xBaton Pass, Belly drum pass, ingrain pass, and/or smeargle pass.
-Buff the move perish song so that it activates after 1 turn instead of 3.
F tier: These are the galaxybrain approaches, with a primary purpose of setting up hilarious memes in the future.
-Ban baton pass from ADV
-Ban baton pass from every generation
-Ban Dugtrio or Tyranitar from ADV
-Forum-ban RienaRien (Mead) for optimizing 3xBaton Pass
-Forum-ban every who has lost a ladder game to Theasiancp3
-Censor the following words: N*nj*sk, C*mer*pt, B*ton P*ss and forum ban anyone who uses them in threads
-Tourban Thelinearcurve for failing to go 9-0 in SPL
I just want to chime in and say that if Mr. Mime is banned (or some complex ban that stops him from statpassing) then I don't think that ninjask or octillery are going to be a problem. I think it's reasonable to ask people to run a phazer due to the huge availability of roar, and running a phazer (if mime is banned) makes it next to impossible to get more than one boost on octillery. If your team can't handle an octillery with +2 speed I'd imagine it can't handle Starmie either. Plus, even if zap or ninjask passing to octillery turns out to be a viable strategy, removing Mr. Mime takes care of the non-interactive element. I also don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a metagame where passing speed to Octillery is a viable strategy.
Limiting to two baton passers gets rid of specifically this team but someone's gonna make a slightly less effective and equally infuriating version where Mime runs barrier as well. Cutting it to one bp successfully eliminates statpassing cheese, but also curtails some offense. I personally don't think it would actually be that bad for offense but other people feel differently there.
One potential concern is trappassing, which was discussed on this thread a page or two ago. I think we should decide whether or not we want to address that right now. I think we should not, and if we do we should not try to lump these two potential bans together.
I think the two options here are either a) ban/limit stat passing or b) ban Mr. Mime. The second option is, from what I can tell, the preference of most of the community.
Limiting to two baton passers gets rid of specifically this team but someone's gonna make a slightly less effective and equally infuriating version where Mime runs barrier as well. Cutting it to one bp successfully eliminates statpassing cheese, but also curtails some offense. I personally don't think it would actually be that bad for offense but other people feel differently there.
One potential concern is trappassing, which was discussed on this thread a page or two ago. I think we should decide whether or not we want to address that right now. I think we should not, and if we do we should not try to lump these two potential bans together.
I think the two options here are either a) ban/limit stat passing or b) ban Mr. Mime. The second option is, from what I can tell, the preference of most of the community.
i hope discussion on the subject of banning sleep-inducing moves in adv ou isn't drowned out and forgotten amidst the hubbub of voices clamouring for a reformed tiering of baton pass, and the opportunity to affect change beyond exorcising those fringe, uncompetitive gremlins doesn't go forsaken.
made an account to literally post this, instead of banning mr mime can the ban just be baton pass on pokemon able to limit phasing? so mime would be usable still and this would include smeargle as well because of ingrain and remove the smeargle + bp complex ban and make it less pokemon specific?
I don't really think there is any reason to keep either mr.mime or ninjask around. Call me salty, but after facing a million ninjask leads, no one can say with a straight face that any variation of it is fun to play against. Having to force a phazing move onto offense sucks, and ninjask and mr. mime are the clear problems with bp teams. Just ban them both and lets be done with it so that no one has to play against that garbage again.
Between hypnosis and bp, I think the most problematic one is bp, u are Force to run roar, and if u run that on skarm means no drill peck. Thre are some good roar users like zapdos, suicune and skarm but u get the point, is not funny facing this teams
Dw's Viability Rankings
(Post Spl)
Welcome All of the Advance Community
With Spl Coming to a Close and not many Adv Specific Tours being around for a While I thought it was time To Give My Rankings in Adv Ou and My Favorite Set of the Pokemon.
Let's Get Into it
1.
Their's nothing about Tyranitar that hasn't been Said its the best Mon in the tier. Any Set on Ttar is Amazing from Physical to Mixed,Tar can Pull off almost anything with Superb Ability.
Favorite Set:4 Attacks Physical
2.
Zapdos is Next and it's here for Really Good Reason. It's the tier best method of Momentum
While Carrying Baton Pass. Bp on its on Makes Zap a Great Mon,but due to its Brutal attack Power its also a Great Offensive Pokemon.
Just an all around amazing Pokemon
Favorite Set:Spdef
3.
Metagross is a Behemoth. It's tanks hits well. It Has a really good Mixed Movepool. And Cb Gross as we all know hits like a 18 Wheeler.
Agility is also a decent set and so is Salac Gross
Favorite Set:Defensive
4.
Jirachi compresses so many rolls into one mon
Great On Offensive,and Defensive teams alike. It's Typing is Amazing(Same goes for Gross) This is a Mon that sticks out for the Long game in Many situations. Almost every Set on this thing is a Benefit for itself or it's teammates
Favorite:WishCalm Mind
5.
This is the highest I believe Salamence has ever been ranked on a Viability ranking(Correct me if I'm wrong) that's due to the Surgence of Bulky Offensive teams anchored by a Choice Bander Which are Taking over the Metagame at the moment. Dedicated Wish sets are Returning to Pass Wishes
Mixed sets are Really Great with spikes and Dd is a immense threat
Favorite Set:Dedicated Wish
6.
Celebi is a great special Sponge in Ou as well as a great Momentum Pokemon similar to Zapdos.
It's a Great Wall and can be a dangerous Attacker
Favorite Set:SubSeed
7.
Dugtrio is important to Count for in the teambuilder and is hard as many of the Best Mons Used at the Moment are Trap by Dug. If you're building try not to be too Dug Weak
Favorite Set:Spdef
8.
Starmie's Defensive Set is seeing a Giant Resurgence in Usage. It's Utility is Amazing it has Twave for Speed Control and Rapid Spin. Offensive sets are still really good as well
Favorite Set: Bold Defensive
9.
What hasn't been Said about Blissey it's a Blob.
It takes Special hits well and can dish hits out itself decently well. Wish on Blissey is also seeing a Giant Surge In Usage on the Bulky Offensive/Balance teams Carrying the Metagame.
Favorite Set:Wish
10.
Swampert is still one of the best Rock Resist around and best Mons around in General it takes alot of the choiced hits effectively and is a Pillar on many Offensive teams and Defensive teams alike
Favorite Set:MixedPert
11.
Skarmory is a Mon that Continues to Adapt to the Metagame around it and has done well at that for a long time now. Taunt is becoming amazing as that messes with the bulkier teams.
This is a Mon that stands the test of time.
Favorite Set:Standard
12.
Forry's Surge in Usage is why is this high. It's been Used to its full potential Alongside Pursuit Tyranitar to rid of Gengar which has dropped in Usage due to that.
Favorite Set:Spikes,Rapid Spin,Earthquake,Zap Cannon
13.
Flygon Has the Offensive Firepower to this tier and does Well against so many of the Best Mons.
Defensive sets stay for the Long run while Offensive sets are harbor alot of Power
I believe People Overlook it as a Mon way too much
Favorite Set:Choice Band
14
Suicune is as Dangerous as A water type can come
It destroys Offensive and Stall alike. With the Bulkier Offensive teams that have become Popular in the Metagame,Suicune has become way easier to Support.
Favorite Set:Modest CroCune
15.
Claydol Is a good Rapid Spinners on Bulky Offensive teams and Teams that seek to beat Skarm down with Several Mons. With Gengar in the picture less often, its ability to Rapid Spun have gotten better. Its boom is also a Great tool
Favorite Set:Standard
16.
Moltres is Really Great at Crippling things in the current metagame as alot of the common teams Anchored by Celebi hate Moltres and other Fires as well. Sunny day Moltres also has a Niche to Clear the Weather
Favorite Set:Standard
17.
Milotic does what Mixed Walls do. it walls Mixed attackers. Hypnosis is good Offensive teams like SD Cele Pass. Milo does what it has to do Consistently throughout Matches
Favorite Set:Standard
18.
Aero is Dangerous and should never be counted out spikes teams love Aero and its a Amazing cleaner for them and is Dangerous to some of the Metagames Best. Curse Whiteherb and Liechi Berry can serve their own niches on SD Cele Pass
Favorite Set:Choice Band
19.
Heracross is a Dangerous threat to Defensive teams and in the Current Metagame it's going to dominate teams as the Metagame is Bulky and that's what Heracross specializes in.
Favorite Set:Choice Band
20.
Gengar I'm pretty sure has never been ranked this low and Their's one Big Reason the existence of the move Pursuit has made Gar way less useful. Spdef Gar can be amazing however,Offensive Gar is way less useful
Favorite Set:Spdef
21.
Lax is a Decent choice less sand allows it to be more Bulky and teams always enjoy its presence and help on the Offensive side
Favorite Set:CurseBoom
22
Breloom Carries Sleep and is Dangerous when sleep is around as it's focus punches even take a chunk at Zapdos. But unlike Heracross it doesn't appearciate the Meta getting a bit bulkier.
Favorite Set: Dual Status
23
Zard Brings Things that Moltres Doesn't
Such as Focus Punch for Blissey,Ttar and Lax,and DragonClaw for Salamence. It's a Versatile threat and is really good with Spikes Down. Petaya Berry Sunny Day sets can also break through Blissey especially with Blast Burn
Favorite Set:Mixed
24.
Kingdra is Adv's most Potent Rain Sweeper for good reason. It cuts through Teams at a Rapid Fire Pace. With Support The Best can be brought out of Kingdra
Favorite Set:Hydro Pump,Rain Dance,ice Beam,Hp Grass
25.
P2 is a Great member for teams that have Dug Weaks and Can Reverse Trap it and is a Good Check to Dd Mence and Dd Gyarados
Favorite Set:Standard
26.
Gyarados is in a weird place ,where sometimes it works sometimes its Borderline Useless.
Still A Mon that needs to be accounted for however
Favorite Set:Rest Dd
27.
Vaporeon can be a Demon if left unchecked it's Subspace Set can pass all over u if u don't know how to deal with it and it's sub acid armor set on Full Bp chains is the single biggest boost of the chain that isn't attack or Speed.
Favorite Set:Sub Salac Pass
28.
Blaziken Carries The Coveted Fire+Grass Combination alongside Stab Fighting. It destroys Tss and is a Realky Good Pokemon to use Salac Berry on as well
Favorite Set:Mixed
29.
Raikou Can be a Pain to deal with and is Dangerous when uncalled. And can be a real Great Mon to stick on Special Offense
Favorite Set:SubTox Lead
30.
Weezing Can Bring great Utility for Mixed Offensive Teams as it carries another Boom on the team Counters Fighters. Defensive sets can be great as well if built properly
Favorite Set:Mixed
31
Steelix is a Titanic Defensive Pokemon with The Ability to blank Zapdos tank alot of hits and is a Damn Good Rock Resist and a really underrated Pokemon
Favorite Set:Earthquake,Hp Rock,Explosion,Protect
32.
Jolteon is a Mon not in the best spot right now as Rapid Spin is super common and the team it fits on is Reliant on Spikes.However if the team can keep spikes Jolteon carries great power
Favorite Set:Standard
33.
Machamp is one Dangerous Fighting type and also one of my Favorites of the Bunch. It's Bulk up Set Can Steamroll teams.
It also can use Choice Band
Favorite Set:Bulk Up
34.
Mag is a Pokemon I've never liked. Doesn't have alot of Utility outside of Trapping Steels and slowing teams down. However it is a Critical Member of those Bulky Offensive/Balance teams in the Metagame at the moment
Favorite Set: Protect,Toxic,Thunderbolt,Hp fire
35.
Hariyama is the Best knock off user. Why I put it under Machamp some may ask? I like Machamp's more Offensive playstyle. Yama however does allow for some great Defensive builds that really take advantage of Spikes and Sand. It also can play on the Offensive as well
Favorite Set:Defensive
36.
Medicham is a Pokemon with Earth shattering Power and decent coverage. The Rise in Bulky Cores to Support it helps it alot
Favorite Set:4 attacks Lefties
37.
Smeargle is similar to Cloyster however it can't tank hits well at all.However I love that it speeds up the Pace of Offensive teams and Booms Effectively.
Favorite Set: Spikes,Spore,Explosion,Endure
38.
And here it is my Worst Ranked Ou and I'll tell you all why. It's so hard to for this thing to boom on what it wants to,Rapid Spin has never been more common and Gengar Spinblocking has never been harder. It's just so ineffective in my Personal opinion
Favorite Set:Standard
39.
Houndoom is a Pokemon Overlooked in the Current Metagame in my Opinion. It's capable of Destroying Celebi,Jirachi,and Metagross,While Crippling so many other top tier Mons with Wisp,And it carries Pursuit for Gengar. Packing a lot of Utility into it can also be great.
Favorite Set:FireBlast,Pursuit,WoW,Hp Grass
40.
Jynx is a Pokemon that is Effective due to carrying sleep. It struggles with special Walls and with alot of the best Pokemon being great Counters.
Favorite Set:Lovely kiss,3 Attacks
41.
Venasaur is another Pokemon that carries Sleep and carries leech seed so switching around it with spikes down is a Pain,however outside of that I feel it lacks power.
Favorite Set:Sleep Powder,Leech Seed,Giga drain,HpFire
42.
Ludicolo is a Swift Swim Sweeper that can also beat Suicune and Milotic thanks to Grass Stab. It also has a LeechSeed Rain dish Set that can be really Great. However teams with seem to struggle more with Dd Mence than Rain teams with Kingdra
Favorite Set:Rain Dish Defensive
43.
Donphan is the Best Physical Tar counter in the game and comes packing Rapid Spin to spin spikes away for more Defensive teams. Pack it with a Mag and Pursuit Tar to bring out the best In it
Favorite Set:Rapid Spin,Protect,Earthquake,Hp Rock
44.
Umbreon is a Mon that Exists to Trap Gengar and bounce back it's Status back with Synchronoise
It also has Meanlook Bp antics
Favorite Set:Wish,Protect,Pursuit,Toxic
Well thats the end of my Main Rankings. The pokemon that I'm talking about Next are Pokemon I didn't know where to place in the list
Dragonite can use focus punch and thus doesn't need Mag,however unlike Mence it doesn't carry Intimadate to Sponge hits.
Favorite Set:Choice Band
Jumpluff is a Mon that can be a serious Demon with spikes down and can be annoying if not taken seriously
Favorite Set:Sub,LeechSeed,encore,Sleep Powder
Lanturn is a Pokemon that carries special traits however it invites in Mons that can invite it's Counters and is Revenge Killed but Dugtrio
Favorite Set:Hydro Pump,ice Beam, HpGrass,Subsitute
Ninjask is the Mon that leads off the Bp Chain teams that are insanely annoying but dangerous
Favorite Set:None of them
Camerupt is a Mon that Switches in to Zapdos well and can threaten some things however, it's Checked by so much to do things consistently
Favorite Set:Explosion,Toxic,FireBlast,Earthquake
Flareon is a Mon that's sole use is Blanking Moltres and passing its Wishes. Their's nothing much else to it
Favorite Set:Wish
Registeel is like a Metagross that's specializes in walling on both the Physical and Special sides. Decent Defensive Choice
Favorite Set:CurseBoom
Regirock is a Mon that just like its Brotheren is similar to Metagross. However it carries and uses the Rare Superpower to Smack Ttar and Blissey. It also takes Super effective hits really well.
Favorite Set:Choice Band
Lastly is Regice.
Regice is Great for Special Walling. However it's Weak to so many common attacks and is starving for Power,and requires Dugtrio support
Favorite Set:Icebeam,Thunderbolt,Twave,Explosion
That's it for My Rankings Guys hope you all enjoy reading it.
Until Next Time
Dw is Out
(Post Spl)
Welcome All of the Advance Community
With Spl Coming to a Close and not many Adv Specific Tours being around for a While I thought it was time To Give My Rankings in Adv Ou and My Favorite Set of the Pokemon.
Let's Get Into it
1.
Their's nothing about Tyranitar that hasn't been Said its the best Mon in the tier. Any Set on Ttar is Amazing from Physical to Mixed,Tar can Pull off almost anything with Superb Ability.
Favorite Set:4 Attacks Physical
2.
Zapdos is Next and it's here for Really Good Reason. It's the tier best method of Momentum
While Carrying Baton Pass. Bp on its on Makes Zap a Great Mon,but due to its Brutal attack Power its also a Great Offensive Pokemon.
Just an all around amazing Pokemon
Favorite Set:Spdef
3.
Metagross is a Behemoth. It's tanks hits well. It Has a really good Mixed Movepool. And Cb Gross as we all know hits like a 18 Wheeler.
Agility is also a decent set and so is Salac Gross
Favorite Set:Defensive
4.
Jirachi compresses so many rolls into one mon
Great On Offensive,and Defensive teams alike. It's Typing is Amazing(Same goes for Gross) This is a Mon that sticks out for the Long game in Many situations. Almost every Set on this thing is a Benefit for itself or it's teammates
Favorite:WishCalm Mind
5.
This is the highest I believe Salamence has ever been ranked on a Viability ranking(Correct me if I'm wrong) that's due to the Surgence of Bulky Offensive teams anchored by a Choice Bander Which are Taking over the Metagame at the moment. Dedicated Wish sets are Returning to Pass Wishes
Mixed sets are Really Great with spikes and Dd is a immense threat
Favorite Set:Dedicated Wish
6.
Celebi is a great special Sponge in Ou as well as a great Momentum Pokemon similar to Zapdos.
It's a Great Wall and can be a dangerous Attacker
Favorite Set:SubSeed
7.
Dugtrio is important to Count for in the teambuilder and is hard as many of the Best Mons Used at the Moment are Trap by Dug. If you're building try not to be too Dug Weak
Favorite Set:Spdef
8.
Starmie's Defensive Set is seeing a Giant Resurgence in Usage. It's Utility is Amazing it has Twave for Speed Control and Rapid Spin. Offensive sets are still really good as well
Favorite Set: Bold Defensive
9.
What hasn't been Said about Blissey it's a Blob.
It takes Special hits well and can dish hits out itself decently well. Wish on Blissey is also seeing a Giant Surge In Usage on the Bulky Offensive/Balance teams Carrying the Metagame.
Favorite Set:Wish
10.
Swampert is still one of the best Rock Resist around and best Mons around in General it takes alot of the choiced hits effectively and is a Pillar on many Offensive teams and Defensive teams alike
Favorite Set:MixedPert
11.
Skarmory is a Mon that Continues to Adapt to the Metagame around it and has done well at that for a long time now. Taunt is becoming amazing as that messes with the bulkier teams.
This is a Mon that stands the test of time.
Favorite Set:Standard
12.
Forry's Surge in Usage is why is this high. It's been Used to its full potential Alongside Pursuit Tyranitar to rid of Gengar which has dropped in Usage due to that.
Favorite Set:Spikes,Rapid Spin,Earthquake,Zap Cannon
13.
Flygon Has the Offensive Firepower to this tier and does Well against so many of the Best Mons.
Defensive sets stay for the Long run while Offensive sets are harbor alot of Power
I believe People Overlook it as a Mon way too much
Favorite Set:Choice Band
14
Suicune is as Dangerous as A water type can come
It destroys Offensive and Stall alike. With the Bulkier Offensive teams that have become Popular in the Metagame,Suicune has become way easier to Support.
Favorite Set:Modest CroCune
15.
Claydol Is a good Rapid Spinners on Bulky Offensive teams and Teams that seek to beat Skarm down with Several Mons. With Gengar in the picture less often, its ability to Rapid Spun have gotten better. Its boom is also a Great tool
Favorite Set:Standard
16.
Moltres is Really Great at Crippling things in the current metagame as alot of the common teams Anchored by Celebi hate Moltres and other Fires as well. Sunny day Moltres also has a Niche to Clear the Weather
Favorite Set:Standard
17.
Milotic does what Mixed Walls do. it walls Mixed attackers. Hypnosis is good Offensive teams like SD Cele Pass. Milo does what it has to do Consistently throughout Matches
Favorite Set:Standard
18.
Aero is Dangerous and should never be counted out spikes teams love Aero and its a Amazing cleaner for them and is Dangerous to some of the Metagames Best. Curse Whiteherb and Liechi Berry can serve their own niches on SD Cele Pass
Favorite Set:Choice Band
19.
Heracross is a Dangerous threat to Defensive teams and in the Current Metagame it's going to dominate teams as the Metagame is Bulky and that's what Heracross specializes in.
Favorite Set:Choice Band
20.
Gengar I'm pretty sure has never been ranked this low and Their's one Big Reason the existence of the move Pursuit has made Gar way less useful. Spdef Gar can be amazing however,Offensive Gar is way less useful
Favorite Set:Spdef
21.
Lax is a Decent choice less sand allows it to be more Bulky and teams always enjoy its presence and help on the Offensive side
Favorite Set:CurseBoom
22
Breloom Carries Sleep and is Dangerous when sleep is around as it's focus punches even take a chunk at Zapdos. But unlike Heracross it doesn't appearciate the Meta getting a bit bulkier.
Favorite Set: Dual Status
23
Zard Brings Things that Moltres Doesn't
Such as Focus Punch for Blissey,Ttar and Lax,and DragonClaw for Salamence. It's a Versatile threat and is really good with Spikes Down. Petaya Berry Sunny Day sets can also break through Blissey especially with Blast Burn
Favorite Set:Mixed
24.
Kingdra is Adv's most Potent Rain Sweeper for good reason. It cuts through Teams at a Rapid Fire Pace. With Support The Best can be brought out of Kingdra
Favorite Set:Hydro Pump,Rain Dance,ice Beam,Hp Grass
25.
P2 is a Great member for teams that have Dug Weaks and Can Reverse Trap it and is a Good Check to Dd Mence and Dd Gyarados
Favorite Set:Standard
26.
Gyarados is in a weird place ,where sometimes it works sometimes its Borderline Useless.
Still A Mon that needs to be accounted for however
Favorite Set:Rest Dd
27.
Vaporeon can be a Demon if left unchecked it's Subspace Set can pass all over u if u don't know how to deal with it and it's sub acid armor set on Full Bp chains is the single biggest boost of the chain that isn't attack or Speed.
Favorite Set:Sub Salac Pass
28.
Blaziken Carries The Coveted Fire+Grass Combination alongside Stab Fighting. It destroys Tss and is a Realky Good Pokemon to use Salac Berry on as well
Favorite Set:Mixed
29.
Raikou Can be a Pain to deal with and is Dangerous when uncalled. And can be a real Great Mon to stick on Special Offense
Favorite Set:SubTox Lead
30.
Weezing Can Bring great Utility for Mixed Offensive Teams as it carries another Boom on the team Counters Fighters. Defensive sets can be great as well if built properly
Favorite Set:Mixed
31
Steelix is a Titanic Defensive Pokemon with The Ability to blank Zapdos tank alot of hits and is a Damn Good Rock Resist and a really underrated Pokemon
Favorite Set:Earthquake,Hp Rock,Explosion,Protect
32.
Jolteon is a Mon not in the best spot right now as Rapid Spin is super common and the team it fits on is Reliant on Spikes.However if the team can keep spikes Jolteon carries great power
Favorite Set:Standard
33.
Machamp is one Dangerous Fighting type and also one of my Favorites of the Bunch. It's Bulk up Set Can Steamroll teams.
It also can use Choice Band
Favorite Set:Bulk Up
34.
Mag is a Pokemon I've never liked. Doesn't have alot of Utility outside of Trapping Steels and slowing teams down. However it is a Critical Member of those Bulky Offensive/Balance teams in the Metagame at the moment
Favorite Set: Protect,Toxic,Thunderbolt,Hp fire
35.
Hariyama is the Best knock off user. Why I put it under Machamp some may ask? I like Machamp's more Offensive playstyle. Yama however does allow for some great Defensive builds that really take advantage of Spikes and Sand. It also can play on the Offensive as well
Favorite Set:Defensive
36.
Medicham is a Pokemon with Earth shattering Power and decent coverage. The Rise in Bulky Cores to Support it helps it alot
Favorite Set:4 attacks Lefties
37.
Smeargle is similar to Cloyster however it can't tank hits well at all.However I love that it speeds up the Pace of Offensive teams and Booms Effectively.
Favorite Set: Spikes,Spore,Explosion,Endure
38.
And here it is my Worst Ranked Ou and I'll tell you all why. It's so hard to for this thing to boom on what it wants to,Rapid Spin has never been more common and Gengar Spinblocking has never been harder. It's just so ineffective in my Personal opinion
Favorite Set:Standard
39.
Houndoom is a Pokemon Overlooked in the Current Metagame in my Opinion. It's capable of Destroying Celebi,Jirachi,and Metagross,While Crippling so many other top tier Mons with Wisp,And it carries Pursuit for Gengar. Packing a lot of Utility into it can also be great.
Favorite Set:FireBlast,Pursuit,WoW,Hp Grass
40.
Jynx is a Pokemon that is Effective due to carrying sleep. It struggles with special Walls and with alot of the best Pokemon being great Counters.
Favorite Set:Lovely kiss,3 Attacks
41.
Venasaur is another Pokemon that carries Sleep and carries leech seed so switching around it with spikes down is a Pain,however outside of that I feel it lacks power.
Favorite Set:Sleep Powder,Leech Seed,Giga drain,HpFire
42.
Ludicolo is a Swift Swim Sweeper that can also beat Suicune and Milotic thanks to Grass Stab. It also has a LeechSeed Rain dish Set that can be really Great. However teams with seem to struggle more with Dd Mence than Rain teams with Kingdra
Favorite Set:Rain Dish Defensive
43.
Donphan is the Best Physical Tar counter in the game and comes packing Rapid Spin to spin spikes away for more Defensive teams. Pack it with a Mag and Pursuit Tar to bring out the best In it
Favorite Set:Rapid Spin,Protect,Earthquake,Hp Rock
44.
Umbreon is a Mon that Exists to Trap Gengar and bounce back it's Status back with Synchronoise
It also has Meanlook Bp antics
Favorite Set:Wish,Protect,Pursuit,Toxic
Well thats the end of my Main Rankings. The pokemon that I'm talking about Next are Pokemon I didn't know where to place in the list
Dragonite can use focus punch and thus doesn't need Mag,however unlike Mence it doesn't carry Intimadate to Sponge hits.
Favorite Set:Choice Band
Jumpluff is a Mon that can be a serious Demon with spikes down and can be annoying if not taken seriously
Favorite Set:Sub,LeechSeed,encore,Sleep Powder
Lanturn is a Pokemon that carries special traits however it invites in Mons that can invite it's Counters and is Revenge Killed but Dugtrio
Favorite Set:Hydro Pump,ice Beam, HpGrass,Subsitute
Ninjask is the Mon that leads off the Bp Chain teams that are insanely annoying but dangerous
Favorite Set:None of them
Camerupt is a Mon that Switches in to Zapdos well and can threaten some things however, it's Checked by so much to do things consistently
Favorite Set:Explosion,Toxic,FireBlast,Earthquake
Flareon is a Mon that's sole use is Blanking Moltres and passing its Wishes. Their's nothing much else to it
Favorite Set:Wish
Registeel is like a Metagross that's specializes in walling on both the Physical and Special sides. Decent Defensive Choice
Favorite Set:CurseBoom
Regirock is a Mon that just like its Brotheren is similar to Metagross. However it carries and uses the Rare Superpower to Smack Ttar and Blissey. It also takes Super effective hits really well.
Favorite Set:Choice Band
Lastly is Regice.
Regice is Great for Special Walling. However it's Weak to so many common attacks and is starving for Power,and requires Dugtrio support
Favorite Set:Icebeam,Thunderbolt,Twave,Explosion
That's it for My Rankings Guys hope you all enjoy reading it.
Until Next Time
Dw is Out
Pert at No. 10? Could you elaborate why?10.
Swampert is still one of the best Rock Resist around and best Mons around in General it takes alot of the choiced hits effectively and is a Pillar on many Offensive teams and Defensive teams alike
Pert Is Stellar at everything it does from Reisisting attacks to Checking Threats like Dragon Dance Salamence,Metagross,and Dragon Dance Tyranitar,
MixedPert is a Dangerous Mixed Attacker
EndeavorPert is really great
And Defensive sets are Great as well.
However it's biggest Worry is That Everything is Running Hp Grass,and that it sort of Struggles against Opposing Waters. If those weren't as big of a problem it would be even higher,still an Amazing Pokemon even with those problems.
Why is this ranked so low? I understand Pursuit exists but not every team can afford to pack it, so Gengar can be a consistent threat in a lot of games. I'd rank it in my top 10 if I were ever to make a personal Viability Ranking.20.
Gengar I'm pretty sure has never been ranked this low and Their's one Big Reason the existence of the move Pursuit has made Gar way less useful. Spdef Gar can be amazing however,Offensive Gar is way less useful
Gengar is definitely a hard pokemon to rank honestly I was harsh on it during these Rankings at this point a week ago I thought Gengar while Effective was just super risky to use. After some more time thinking I definitely did put it low
Hello everyone. With SPL XII now over, it feels appropriate to have the bi-annual VR update to keep things fresh. You know the drill by now but I will repeat it just in case...
I will just quote myself from the previous update regarding how this thing works:
I encourage everyone to get discussion going/post their rankings, I will post mine at least.
Please feel free to send me your rankings, especially if you're an active ADVer. Share this with your friends who play the tier. The more the better.
HLing a bunch of people: BKC Dizno vapicuno Mana Hclat Sadlysius PDC Altina Astamatitos SoulWind Fakes M Dragon thelinearcurve Fear Zokuru Gacu dice Cowboy Dan Star undisputed CyberOdin✝ UD Golden Sun eden z0mOG roystopror Triangles Gilbert arenas ABR Tamahome dekzeh Teclis gorgie Endill mikmer
I will just quote myself from the previous update regarding how this thing works:
In the meantime, feel free to influence everyone's vote by pushing for or against various Pokemons.
I encourage everyone to get discussion going/post their rankings, I will post mine at least.
Please feel free to send me your rankings, especially if you're an active ADVer. Share this with your friends who play the tier. The more the better.
HLing a bunch of people: BKC Dizno vapicuno Mana Hclat Sadlysius PDC Altina Astamatitos SoulWind Fakes M Dragon thelinearcurve Fear Zokuru Gacu dice Cowboy Dan Star undisputed CyberOdin✝ UD Golden Sun eden z0mOG roystopror Triangles Gilbert arenas ABR Tamahome dekzeh Teclis gorgie Endill mikmer
pole
S rank
Tyranitar
S- rank
Zapdos
A+ Rank
Metagross
Swampert
Gengar
Salamence
A Rank
Jirachi
Skarmory
Celebi
Dugtrio
Suicune
A- Rank
Blissey
Claydol
Starmie
Aerodactyl
Moltres
B+ Rank
Snorlax
Hariyama
Forretress
Milotic
Breloom
B Rank
Vaporeon
Medicham
Flygon
Heracross
Jolteon
B- Rank
Magneton
Charizard
Cloyster
Gyarados
Kingdra
C+ Rank
Raikou
Venusaur
Jynx
Porygon2
Donphan
Blaziken
C Rank
Weezing
Smeargle
Houndoom
Machamp
Slaking
Regice
Steelix
C- Rank
Lanturn
Umbreon
Jumpluff
Dragonite
Gardevoir
Regirock
Solrock
Dusclops
Ludicolo
Exeggutor
Miltank
Scizor
Lapras
Rhydon
Articuno
Armaldo
Alakazam
S rank
Tyranitar
S- rank
Zapdos
A+ Rank
Metagross
Swampert
Gengar
Salamence
A Rank
Jirachi
Skarmory
Celebi
Dugtrio
Suicune
A- Rank
Blissey
Claydol
Starmie
Aerodactyl
Moltres
B+ Rank
Snorlax
Hariyama
Forretress
Milotic
Breloom
B Rank
Vaporeon
Medicham
Flygon
Heracross
Jolteon
B- Rank
Magneton
Charizard
Cloyster
Gyarados
Kingdra
C+ Rank
Raikou
Venusaur
Jynx
Porygon2
Donphan
Blaziken
C Rank
Weezing
Smeargle
Houndoom
Machamp
Slaking
Regice
Steelix
C- Rank
Lanturn
Umbreon
Jumpluff
Dragonite
Gardevoir
Regirock
Solrock
Dusclops
Ludicolo
Exeggutor
Miltank
Scizor
Lapras
Rhydon
Articuno
Armaldo
Alakazam
Last edited:
Allllrighty, back for my second round of VRs. I thought the ones I posted a couple months ago were pretty fun. Some takes aged pretty well (blissey, magneton, and gengar = bad); some not so well (snorlax = consistent). Plus it was pretty entertaining to have some smogon weirdos I've never talked to call my grammar disrespectful (lol wut) and call me an astamatitos wannabe (accurate but rude!). Hope these are equally well-received this time around.
I sprinkle in some teambuilding tips, so have your notepads at the ready. Here we go!
S
======
Obligatory S tier. Use him if you want sand. And you should want sand, unless you don't want sand. Don't be sand-ambivalent. Also its moves, stats, and pursuit are good.
======
S-
======
Mence ascends to the #2 slot. Mence is high because dclaw/fire move/brickbreak/filler is an amazing tempo set. There's like 0 overlap in the venn diagram of [Scary Mons] and [Mons that can Switch in on Mence Repeatedly]. Intimidate is OP, water grass fire resist is great on the special side, bug fight eq resists are great physically. DragonDance and ChoiceBand are sets that exist, and they can beat underprepped teams too. But mixed salamence is the defining mon of this iteration of the adv metagame.
======
A+
======
Metagross is good. Does a buncha damage. Doesn't take much damage. Benefits from mag dropping off the map. SpDef investment is underrated here.
Defensive cele's just a better blissey. Yeah, celebi loses to some random stuff that blissey doesn't. But leech seed is a catch-all move that grabs momentum in a way bliss just can't. Plus celebi pressures starmie and claydol, and it doesn't lose to waters. It's just good for like all the reasons blissey is bad. On the offense side, 2atk CM BP is the keystone of modern special offense and the bane of stall teams. Other cm sets are powerful too, plus opponents are increasingly cautious of bp, which gives it more room. sd/sub/dry pass are okay too.
Spikes are good, nothing new here. I just wanna plug counter>roar on skarm. A lot of people have used roarless skarm (dpeck protect toxic), and counter's a version that isnt vulnerable to metagross.
=====
A
=====
People are deciding not to lose to its cm sets as much anymore. A month ago it was top4.
Offensive zapdos has gotten worse, but defensive has gotten better.
Not swampert's best showing. It's fine, but people are learning to abuse it.
=====
A-
=====
He's fine. Hp fight becoming more standard is kinda cool, but not my cup of tea.
It's not bad. It's just worse at its job than salamence. Maxing SpA is cool.
Blissey's not all that bad in herself. However, players overrate it and allow themselves to be abused. Don't fall into the blissey trap.
Bulkystar is a bit controversial; I think it's fine. Recover+spin is awesome, but nothing else about it is. Offensive star's pretty neat. Good vs everything except bliss (and
). And if ur opponent is using blissey, you're probably winning anyway.
=====
B+
=====
I'm pretty low on it, but its aight.
People are a bit lower on OU's newly-minted member, but it's still great at abusing tar, normals, slow waters. Awesome salamence partner. Subseed and blackbelt (not together tho) are cool.
Good vs stall. bad vs offense. Skill mu vs skarm.
I just don't understand how I'm supposed to use her. 1/2 my ladder losses are to suicune when it outspeeds my celebi though. Defensive sets get crit. Offensive gets walled. Bad alongside spikes. Its stats and pressure are good I guess.
The Ice Queen continues to dominate stally teams. Zap lead punisher. Celebi punisher. Hard to play around without knowing its moves. A bit of bulk goes a long way. I'll never understand people who butcher its set by using thief. Just use cm and 6-0 people. I roll my eyes at players that are too good for 75/25s.
Another stall mon. I actually think lax is about to rise dramatically, since everyone is weak to it. But that day is not today.
Bulky ddtar and no-roar skarm don't do him any favors. Pretty abusable too. But sand immune, spike immune, spin, and boom can't be ranked much lower than this.
=====
B-
=====
Swingy mon that people have forgotten about. He's so-so in some matchups, but more and more teams with Heracross 0-6 Syndrome pop up every day. Unfortunately, he's in the the B- tier, alongside like 5 other mons that get sauced by salamence balance.
Nothin new here. The MU-proof spiker. Dies fast, but doesn't die immediately, unless by design.
I know nobody used him in spl, but it's not too bad. Pair with things that abuse blissey, celebi, claydol.
She lost a friend in Mr Mime, but it's still a great passer and abuses waters.
Rest is good, berries are sneaky. Unfortunately, flygon's teammates are weak to mence, and flygon itself is weak to mence.
Pretty versatile. I like counter on it.
Moltzard took a dive. GoodMon salamence is oppressive.
Lmao feels like hating on lanturn is as trendy as lanturn itself was this summer. Its typing, ability, and stabs are amazing for a spike partner. Skarm is mandatory, but there are several lineups with him that are very good.
=====
C
=====
Fighting types can work. Not the worst.
Sleep + utility. Gambitmons. Usable, but u gotta use a couple brain cells when building.
Just different versions of the bad version of salamence.
Boom mons that can hit boom resists, plus they each resist one or two ScaryMons. Workable, but their stats are bad.
Rain's fun
=====
D
=====
He's low-key decent rn, bc the things that are good vs it are bad (waters). The unfortunate exception is metagross.
UD's son is lower than ever in the age of salamence
My new tech is to utilize pikachu's speed, frailty, and access to wish to allow a partner (belly drum) to heal on the turn it clicks a setup move. Plus its firepower is ridiculous: 90 base speed that reaches over 400 SpA and 120BP volt tackle (recoil self-ko can block recovery too!)
Sand-and-toxic-immune focus punch is unique and good. 4x resisting boom is hilarious.
Ugh I hate these guys. Just more examples of mons that bait you into telling yourself "yeah I totally won't lose to X". They can be okay, but I've seen so many bad builds justified with these guys' presence. Don't fall into the trap.
Pair with a fire type. But really just use jynx instead, unless your team is soloed by starmie.
Has synergistic partners
I don't understand why he finds his way onto stall teams, but it's nasty as a speed recipient.
I'm including him purely out of superstition. If we don't disrespect him, hopefully he will join his pal Mime in the land of the dead.
Not sure why you're using them. Nobody uses gengar.
Don't lead him. Just use smeargle or jynx for the love of god.
These are guys I don't know how to build yet, and other people don't either, with a couple one-off exceptions.
I sprinkle in some teambuilding tips, so have your notepads at the ready. Here we go!
S
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Obligatory S tier. Use him if you want sand. And you should want sand, unless you don't want sand. Don't be sand-ambivalent. Also its moves, stats, and pursuit are good.
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S-
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Mence ascends to the #2 slot. Mence is high because dclaw/fire move/brickbreak/filler is an amazing tempo set. There's like 0 overlap in the venn diagram of [Scary Mons] and [Mons that can Switch in on Mence Repeatedly]. Intimidate is OP, water grass fire resist is great on the special side, bug fight eq resists are great physically. DragonDance and ChoiceBand are sets that exist, and they can beat underprepped teams too. But mixed salamence is the defining mon of this iteration of the adv metagame.
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A+
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Metagross is good. Does a buncha damage. Doesn't take much damage. Benefits from mag dropping off the map. SpDef investment is underrated here.
Defensive cele's just a better blissey. Yeah, celebi loses to some random stuff that blissey doesn't. But leech seed is a catch-all move that grabs momentum in a way bliss just can't. Plus celebi pressures starmie and claydol, and it doesn't lose to waters. It's just good for like all the reasons blissey is bad. On the offense side, 2atk CM BP is the keystone of modern special offense and the bane of stall teams. Other cm sets are powerful too, plus opponents are increasingly cautious of bp, which gives it more room. sd/sub/dry pass are okay too.
Spikes are good, nothing new here. I just wanna plug counter>roar on skarm. A lot of people have used roarless skarm (dpeck protect toxic), and counter's a version that isnt vulnerable to metagross.
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A
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People are deciding not to lose to its cm sets as much anymore. A month ago it was top4.
Offensive zapdos has gotten worse, but defensive has gotten better.
Not swampert's best showing. It's fine, but people are learning to abuse it.
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A-
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He's fine. Hp fight becoming more standard is kinda cool, but not my cup of tea.
It's not bad. It's just worse at its job than salamence. Maxing SpA is cool.
Blissey's not all that bad in herself. However, players overrate it and allow themselves to be abused. Don't fall into the blissey trap.
Bulkystar is a bit controversial; I think it's fine. Recover+spin is awesome, but nothing else about it is. Offensive star's pretty neat. Good vs everything except bliss (and
). And if ur opponent is using blissey, you're probably winning anyway.=====
B+
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I'm pretty low on it, but its aight.
People are a bit lower on OU's newly-minted member, but it's still great at abusing tar, normals, slow waters. Awesome salamence partner. Subseed and blackbelt (not together tho) are cool.
Good vs stall. bad vs offense. Skill mu vs skarm.
I just don't understand how I'm supposed to use her. 1/2 my ladder losses are to suicune when it outspeeds my celebi though. Defensive sets get crit. Offensive gets walled. Bad alongside spikes. Its stats and pressure are good I guess.
The Ice Queen continues to dominate stally teams. Zap lead punisher. Celebi punisher. Hard to play around without knowing its moves. A bit of bulk goes a long way. I'll never understand people who butcher its set by using thief. Just use cm and 6-0 people. I roll my eyes at players that are too good for 75/25s.
Another stall mon. I actually think lax is about to rise dramatically, since everyone is weak to it. But that day is not today.
Bulky ddtar and no-roar skarm don't do him any favors. Pretty abusable too. But sand immune, spike immune, spin, and boom can't be ranked much lower than this.
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B-
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Swingy mon that people have forgotten about. He's so-so in some matchups, but more and more teams with Heracross 0-6 Syndrome pop up every day. Unfortunately, he's in the the B- tier, alongside like 5 other mons that get sauced by salamence balance.
Nothin new here. The MU-proof spiker. Dies fast, but doesn't die immediately, unless by design.
I know nobody used him in spl, but it's not too bad. Pair with things that abuse blissey, celebi, claydol.
She lost a friend in Mr Mime, but it's still a great passer and abuses waters.
Rest is good, berries are sneaky. Unfortunately, flygon's teammates are weak to mence, and flygon itself is weak to mence.
Pretty versatile. I like counter on it.
Moltzard took a dive. GoodMon salamence is oppressive.
Lmao feels like hating on lanturn is as trendy as lanturn itself was this summer. Its typing, ability, and stabs are amazing for a spike partner. Skarm is mandatory, but there are several lineups with him that are very good.
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C
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Fighting types can work. Not the worst.
Sleep + utility. Gambitmons. Usable, but u gotta use a couple brain cells when building.
Just different versions of the bad version of salamence.
Boom mons that can hit boom resists, plus they each resist one or two ScaryMons. Workable, but their stats are bad.
Rain's fun
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D
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He's low-key decent rn, bc the things that are good vs it are bad (waters). The unfortunate exception is metagross.
UD's son is lower than ever in the age of salamence
My new tech is to utilize pikachu's speed, frailty, and access to wish to allow a partner (belly drum) to heal on the turn it clicks a setup move. Plus its firepower is ridiculous: 90 base speed that reaches over 400 SpA and 120BP volt tackle (recoil self-ko can block recovery too!)
Sand-and-toxic-immune focus punch is unique and good. 4x resisting boom is hilarious.
Ugh I hate these guys. Just more examples of mons that bait you into telling yourself "yeah I totally won't lose to X". They can be okay, but I've seen so many bad builds justified with these guys' presence. Don't fall into the trap.
Pair with a fire type. But really just use jynx instead, unless your team is soloed by starmie.
Has synergistic partners
I don't understand why he finds his way onto stall teams, but it's nasty as a speed recipient.
I'm including him purely out of superstition. If we don't disrespect him, hopefully he will join his pal Mime in the land of the dead.
Not sure why you're using them. Nobody uses gengar.
Don't lead him. Just use smeargle or jynx for the love of god.
These are guys I don't know how to build yet, and other people don't either, with a couple one-off exceptions.
Last edited:
Actual VR time
S rank:
Completely invaluable presence for pretty much any team that doesn't not want sand, and even usable on those if you're that umbreon averse. A great offensive threat as well. Incredible stats, movepool, and ability, and the typing can't weigh it down that hard. Pursuit tar is really good on teams where you don't really know what set to use, it'll very consistently do good work.
A+:
Easily number two in my eyes. Zapdos is to spikeless offense as Gengar is to spikes offense, in that you almost always want to fit it if you can, and it'll very consistently put in work. Not to mention spdef Zapdos is an incredible glue for balance, as it is a really good check to waters that might otherwise run you over.
Protect 3atks pert is probably the single most consistent set in the game in my opinion. It's always going to do its job as long as you're careful about not throwing it into hp grasses too often. Defensive pert is pretty much never bad in any matchup. Offensive pert has significantly more variance in terms of matchup, sometimes it'll be great and sometimes really bad. It's still pretty decent overall, though.
Electric resistance, reliable recovery, and being really annoying with leech seed make defensive celebi a huge pain to deal with. I personally think cmpass celebi is slightly overrated, however, it's certainly very powerful. Superbi is very good. Celebi is very customizable in its spread and moveset to deal with certain threats, a trait it shares with many other highly-ranked mons.
Spikes are the best, and Skarm is the best spiker. This bird is right after Tyranitar when I think about what defines the tier. Special attackers are so massively improved by spikes it's hard to describe. Being able to punish your opponent for pivoting around your attackers is so, so powerful.
Not quite as high on this as some others but this last several months has been an absolutely meteoric (heh) rise for this mon. Spdef sets I believe are still held back by being very bad vs wisp gengar, almost so much so that I think it needs a pursuiter. Physdef jirachi is demonic, some teams just cannot break that thing. CM Wish is really great with thunder and ice punch (rip Altina), and subCM is too. Jirachee was using wish/protect/thunder/ice punch and I think that's neat, because this thing getting freezes can just blow games open.
A:
There's one reason to use this over Jirachi or Swampert defensively, and that's explosion. Metagross is such an incredible emergency check to just about anything in the tier, if you can place your boom properly. Offensive sets are good as well; I've been using a lot of psychic/fire/mash/boom. Mash/EQ/grass/boom is also a great set, and tpunch over mash works there too. I'm not a huge fan of agility, but salac is ok. Needing mag support is really crippling for both those sets though. Offensive meta is best when it's breaking waters for your ddtar or aero in the back, not sweeping on its own.
Blissey gets a lot of hate and I don't think it's deserved. Zap into beat up dug isn't the end for her, and I don't really think there ever will be one. I'll admit that I've been using a lot less of beam/stoss/soft/last bliss, as I think other sets (snatch, fire, etc) are better geared to the current metagame. Fire tox bliss especially is great, as pretty much every mon in the tier is scared coming into at least one of those two moves
Gengar can do anything. Having a fast explosion is such a huge boon for this guy, and there aren't too many feelings in mons as good as having your gengar in front of a full stack of spikes, clicking wisp and knowing literally nothing can confidently switch in. Plus, hypnogar is completely broken.
Peak mence is right now, and I rarely consider using mence that's not mixed anymore. Dclaw/Brick Break/Fire Blast, and then whatever last move you like. I still think grass is the best option, but if your team wants something else just go for it.
A-:
Really unique from the other 'bulky waters,' which is a bit of a misnomer in my opinion because suicune really isn't that bulky under common circumstances. Performs best with a ton of support, however, it performs really, really well if it does have that. Offensive suicune sets are pretty good and sub+rain dance is very cool.
This thing just smashes some offenses so hard, and it seems like it almost never has a bad matchup. Occasionally you'll run into something like tect rachi+pert+ground immune and your aero has a hard time making anything happen, but that's really not common. Shutting down cm chains is extremely valuable, and having that super-fast mon to catch something before it gets out of control and steamrolls your team is invaluable. Dramatically improved by spikes, but still really good without them.
My personal thoughts on dugtrio are that 6 team slots really isn't very much, and if I think 'oh, I could put a dug on here' I'd probably rather put something on that actually adds to the offensive presence of my team, or covers another threat defensively. Some teams need dug, but aside from a few structures I don't think they're that great. Zapdug is alright, and in my opinion the best cmspam is the Vapicuno/McMeghan one that doesn't carry dug. Trapping is broken though.
B+:
Bold starmie is ok, it's a really good metagross switchin, which I think is undersold about it. Offensive starmie is pretty good, but it seems like kind of a matchup pick to me in a lot of games. Sometimes a fast spin with strong attacks behind it is really good, and sometimes it isn't. 4atks starmie is a really good cleaner if your team doesn't care about the spin.
Easily the best spinner at spinning, and can explode as well. If you're running dol without boom, you're running a terrible mon that will be completely useless against spikeless teams. The only spread worth using in my opinion is max hp adamant nature, because losing 1 on 1 to unboosted ddtar is really pathetic.
Held back by being Not As Good As Skarm. Feels like you have to outplay your opponent to have safe opportunities to get spikes up in a lot of matchups, unless you just want to not scout firebliss or something. Also, doesn't spin reliably, even with suittar support (gengar can be spdef and just beat your tar sometimes). Forre+dol is ok, but not as good as skarm+dol imo. Better vs skarm than skarm is, but worse in pretty much every other matchup except mag I guess.
There is one problem with this guy and it's megahorn accuracy. And being switched in on by the 2nd hottest mon in the tier right now, I guess. Salac hera demolishes a lot of mediocre teams though, and if you can force damage on mence or gar somehow it can demolish good teams too.
B:
Sleep is broken. Breloom also has the advantage of having 3 (well, more than 3, McLoom is good too) sets that I think help it perform well at different stages of the game. Double status loom is really good early-game: baiting in that mence or gengar to get paralyzed makes them much, much easier to deal with for the rest of your team. Triple fight loom is a great wallbreaker for the middle of the game, after your pursuiter has taken care of gengar, and SD Loom is an incredible cleaner once your opponent's team has been knocked into range of +2 brick break or mach punch. Late-game sleep is much, much more threatening than early-game sleep.
This is a wallbreaker, not a special tank. If this is your special tank, you will lose against any team with special attackers and sand. Spikes make it even worse. If lax can blow up skarm, and maybe have damaged something else along the way, that's the best contribution you can expect from this guy.
Fine mon and you'll run into some great matchups, but really just use zap most of the time.
Just kinda mediocre. Walling mixed attackers forever is cool, but getting beat down pretty easily by just about everything that's not mixed attackers isn't. Snatchbliss owns this thing too.
Not that bad, reverse trapping dug really isn't so much of a game-changer most of the time though so if that's the only reason it's on your team then it's underwhelming.
Haven't used this thing in quite a while but watching Kerts play with it has made me see the light. That being said, this is a really prediction-reliant mon, and in my opinion prediction-reliant is just about the same thing as bad. Electric STAB + ambiguous hidden power is always going to be pretty decent though.
B-:
Hits like a truck, can pass 101 HP subs, and depending on the last move might just have an insane matchup. Timid ice beam vap against defensive celebi is such a satisfying interaction, for the vap user. Roar vap, well, we all saw hclat vs linear this spl.
Comes in and spikes on weak waters. Has explosion, so it can't be that bad.
Knock off is great. Absolutely needs spin+wish support if you want him to stick around, but he doesn't really have to do that if your team doesn't need him to. Knocking off mence and gar is huge, sand damage really adds up, and knocking off cune is the motherlode.
extreme glass cannon, obviously. Good vs fat, bad vs offense, but maybe can pick up a ko here or there.
I used to hate on defensive weezing but I think it's good now. Offensive is ok, but very hard to fit without becoming weak to common threats, and not very threatening if it doesn't have spike support.
Shitmon with a niche. Very bad in any non-skarm or forre matchup. Lefties sets can sort of do work against some teams, like switching into spdef zapdos reasonably well, but this is gonna be a useless mon probably at least half of the time.
C+:
Spam fire move. Too prediction-reliant (bad) for me, but in the right hands a big threat.
Complete MU pick. Clowns on big 5, not too good elsewhere. Not a lot of big 5 going around right now so not a great bring.
CB gon sucks. Others are super weak. Salac is ok, protox is actually pretty good sometimes.
Better than snorlax at checking special attackers, and has a really strong+spammable STAB. Being a special tank that actually scares skarm is good.
Indomitable physical wall, and a great electric switchin to boot.
Not very consistent in my opinion but I'm open to being proven wrong. Seems like it's on the come-up right now. Ruined by lum lead.
Legitimately OK. Really great movepool-taunt, superpower, sludge bomb, etc. and a pretty good typing as well. Very hard to fit though.
C:
Pretty decent set variety. Espeed is a great tool.
CB has promise I think. Knock is always good.
Not a fan, but I guess it can work.
Strong + pretty fast, Dark+Fire is a great typing.
Sleep is broken but if you don't freeze it doesn't seem to do much. Ruined by lum lead, like smeargle is. Also jolly cb mence, which seems more common than ada nowadays.
C-:
Probably just use yama or medi.
Very strong, but not very good.
Mediocre even if it has the million support mons it needs.
Actually has a great movepool and better speed than other spikers.
Way, way too passive. I tried to use it to pursuit mence once, doing 30% on a switch sucks ass.
IMO mixnite is ok, dd is pretty bad. Heal bell is just not that great a move or this would be cooler.
DA and Linear think this is good so who am I to say it isn't.
I think this mon might be usable but I've yet to make it actually work.
Cheese pick imo, if your opponent knows it's there they shouldn't lose to it unless it has an insane matchup.
Dies to every stray HP grass. Works with a ton of support but bad without.
D for don't use rank:
Lanturn
Jumpluff
Gardevoir
Regirock
Exeggutor
Miltank
Lapras
Alakazam
Articuno
Ludicolo
Slaking
S rank:
Completely invaluable presence for pretty much any team that doesn't not want sand, and even usable on those if you're that umbreon averse. A great offensive threat as well. Incredible stats, movepool, and ability, and the typing can't weigh it down that hard. Pursuit tar is really good on teams where you don't really know what set to use, it'll very consistently do good work.
A+:
Easily number two in my eyes. Zapdos is to spikeless offense as Gengar is to spikes offense, in that you almost always want to fit it if you can, and it'll very consistently put in work. Not to mention spdef Zapdos is an incredible glue for balance, as it is a really good check to waters that might otherwise run you over.
Protect 3atks pert is probably the single most consistent set in the game in my opinion. It's always going to do its job as long as you're careful about not throwing it into hp grasses too often. Defensive pert is pretty much never bad in any matchup. Offensive pert has significantly more variance in terms of matchup, sometimes it'll be great and sometimes really bad. It's still pretty decent overall, though.
Electric resistance, reliable recovery, and being really annoying with leech seed make defensive celebi a huge pain to deal with. I personally think cmpass celebi is slightly overrated, however, it's certainly very powerful. Superbi is very good. Celebi is very customizable in its spread and moveset to deal with certain threats, a trait it shares with many other highly-ranked mons.
Spikes are the best, and Skarm is the best spiker. This bird is right after Tyranitar when I think about what defines the tier. Special attackers are so massively improved by spikes it's hard to describe. Being able to punish your opponent for pivoting around your attackers is so, so powerful.
Not quite as high on this as some others but this last several months has been an absolutely meteoric (heh) rise for this mon. Spdef sets I believe are still held back by being very bad vs wisp gengar, almost so much so that I think it needs a pursuiter. Physdef jirachi is demonic, some teams just cannot break that thing. CM Wish is really great with thunder and ice punch (rip Altina), and subCM is too. Jirachee was using wish/protect/thunder/ice punch and I think that's neat, because this thing getting freezes can just blow games open.
A:
There's one reason to use this over Jirachi or Swampert defensively, and that's explosion. Metagross is such an incredible emergency check to just about anything in the tier, if you can place your boom properly. Offensive sets are good as well; I've been using a lot of psychic/fire/mash/boom. Mash/EQ/grass/boom is also a great set, and tpunch over mash works there too. I'm not a huge fan of agility, but salac is ok. Needing mag support is really crippling for both those sets though. Offensive meta is best when it's breaking waters for your ddtar or aero in the back, not sweeping on its own.
Blissey gets a lot of hate and I don't think it's deserved. Zap into beat up dug isn't the end for her, and I don't really think there ever will be one. I'll admit that I've been using a lot less of beam/stoss/soft/last bliss, as I think other sets (snatch, fire, etc) are better geared to the current metagame. Fire tox bliss especially is great, as pretty much every mon in the tier is scared coming into at least one of those two moves
Gengar can do anything. Having a fast explosion is such a huge boon for this guy, and there aren't too many feelings in mons as good as having your gengar in front of a full stack of spikes, clicking wisp and knowing literally nothing can confidently switch in. Plus, hypnogar is completely broken.
Peak mence is right now, and I rarely consider using mence that's not mixed anymore. Dclaw/Brick Break/Fire Blast, and then whatever last move you like. I still think grass is the best option, but if your team wants something else just go for it.
A-:
Really unique from the other 'bulky waters,' which is a bit of a misnomer in my opinion because suicune really isn't that bulky under common circumstances. Performs best with a ton of support, however, it performs really, really well if it does have that. Offensive suicune sets are pretty good and sub+rain dance is very cool.
This thing just smashes some offenses so hard, and it seems like it almost never has a bad matchup. Occasionally you'll run into something like tect rachi+pert+ground immune and your aero has a hard time making anything happen, but that's really not common. Shutting down cm chains is extremely valuable, and having that super-fast mon to catch something before it gets out of control and steamrolls your team is invaluable. Dramatically improved by spikes, but still really good without them.
My personal thoughts on dugtrio are that 6 team slots really isn't very much, and if I think 'oh, I could put a dug on here' I'd probably rather put something on that actually adds to the offensive presence of my team, or covers another threat defensively. Some teams need dug, but aside from a few structures I don't think they're that great. Zapdug is alright, and in my opinion the best cmspam is the Vapicuno/McMeghan one that doesn't carry dug. Trapping is broken though.
B+:
Bold starmie is ok, it's a really good metagross switchin, which I think is undersold about it. Offensive starmie is pretty good, but it seems like kind of a matchup pick to me in a lot of games. Sometimes a fast spin with strong attacks behind it is really good, and sometimes it isn't. 4atks starmie is a really good cleaner if your team doesn't care about the spin.
Easily the best spinner at spinning, and can explode as well. If you're running dol without boom, you're running a terrible mon that will be completely useless against spikeless teams. The only spread worth using in my opinion is max hp adamant nature, because losing 1 on 1 to unboosted ddtar is really pathetic.
Held back by being Not As Good As Skarm. Feels like you have to outplay your opponent to have safe opportunities to get spikes up in a lot of matchups, unless you just want to not scout firebliss or something. Also, doesn't spin reliably, even with suittar support (gengar can be spdef and just beat your tar sometimes). Forre+dol is ok, but not as good as skarm+dol imo. Better vs skarm than skarm is, but worse in pretty much every other matchup except mag I guess.
There is one problem with this guy and it's megahorn accuracy. And being switched in on by the 2nd hottest mon in the tier right now, I guess. Salac hera demolishes a lot of mediocre teams though, and if you can force damage on mence or gar somehow it can demolish good teams too.
B:
Sleep is broken. Breloom also has the advantage of having 3 (well, more than 3, McLoom is good too) sets that I think help it perform well at different stages of the game. Double status loom is really good early-game: baiting in that mence or gengar to get paralyzed makes them much, much easier to deal with for the rest of your team. Triple fight loom is a great wallbreaker for the middle of the game, after your pursuiter has taken care of gengar, and SD Loom is an incredible cleaner once your opponent's team has been knocked into range of +2 brick break or mach punch. Late-game sleep is much, much more threatening than early-game sleep.
This is a wallbreaker, not a special tank. If this is your special tank, you will lose against any team with special attackers and sand. Spikes make it even worse. If lax can blow up skarm, and maybe have damaged something else along the way, that's the best contribution you can expect from this guy.
Fine mon and you'll run into some great matchups, but really just use zap most of the time.
Just kinda mediocre. Walling mixed attackers forever is cool, but getting beat down pretty easily by just about everything that's not mixed attackers isn't. Snatchbliss owns this thing too.
Not that bad, reverse trapping dug really isn't so much of a game-changer most of the time though so if that's the only reason it's on your team then it's underwhelming.
Haven't used this thing in quite a while but watching Kerts play with it has made me see the light. That being said, this is a really prediction-reliant mon, and in my opinion prediction-reliant is just about the same thing as bad. Electric STAB + ambiguous hidden power is always going to be pretty decent though.
B-:
Hits like a truck, can pass 101 HP subs, and depending on the last move might just have an insane matchup. Timid ice beam vap against defensive celebi is such a satisfying interaction, for the vap user. Roar vap, well, we all saw hclat vs linear this spl.
Comes in and spikes on weak waters. Has explosion, so it can't be that bad.
Knock off is great. Absolutely needs spin+wish support if you want him to stick around, but he doesn't really have to do that if your team doesn't need him to. Knocking off mence and gar is huge, sand damage really adds up, and knocking off cune is the motherlode.
extreme glass cannon, obviously. Good vs fat, bad vs offense, but maybe can pick up a ko here or there.
I used to hate on defensive weezing but I think it's good now. Offensive is ok, but very hard to fit without becoming weak to common threats, and not very threatening if it doesn't have spike support.
Shitmon with a niche. Very bad in any non-skarm or forre matchup. Lefties sets can sort of do work against some teams, like switching into spdef zapdos reasonably well, but this is gonna be a useless mon probably at least half of the time.
C+:
Spam fire move. Too prediction-reliant (bad) for me, but in the right hands a big threat.
Complete MU pick. Clowns on big 5, not too good elsewhere. Not a lot of big 5 going around right now so not a great bring.
CB gon sucks. Others are super weak. Salac is ok, protox is actually pretty good sometimes.
Better than snorlax at checking special attackers, and has a really strong+spammable STAB. Being a special tank that actually scares skarm is good.
Indomitable physical wall, and a great electric switchin to boot.
Not very consistent in my opinion but I'm open to being proven wrong. Seems like it's on the come-up right now. Ruined by lum lead.
Legitimately OK. Really great movepool-taunt, superpower, sludge bomb, etc. and a pretty good typing as well. Very hard to fit though.
C:
Pretty decent set variety. Espeed is a great tool.
CB has promise I think. Knock is always good.
Not a fan, but I guess it can work.
Strong + pretty fast, Dark+Fire is a great typing.
Sleep is broken but if you don't freeze it doesn't seem to do much. Ruined by lum lead, like smeargle is. Also jolly cb mence, which seems more common than ada nowadays.
C-:
Probably just use yama or medi.
Very strong, but not very good.
Mediocre even if it has the million support mons it needs.
Actually has a great movepool and better speed than other spikers.
Way, way too passive. I tried to use it to pursuit mence once, doing 30% on a switch sucks ass.
IMO mixnite is ok, dd is pretty bad. Heal bell is just not that great a move or this would be cooler.
DA and Linear think this is good so who am I to say it isn't.
I think this mon might be usable but I've yet to make it actually work.
Cheese pick imo, if your opponent knows it's there they shouldn't lose to it unless it has an insane matchup.
Dies to every stray HP grass. Works with a ton of support but bad without.
D for don't use rank:
Lanturn
Jumpluff
Gardevoir
Regirock
Exeggutor
Miltank
Lapras
Alakazam
Articuno
Ludicolo
Slaking
Wanted to share my ideas of the metagame and post some of my own takes on where I see the meta going w a Vr. (warning this is super long)
S Rank:
Tyranitar is of course the best Mon in the tier -- I think it bares repeating, but even if it had no moves or EVs, Tar's sand would be defining in Adv due to pressure it puts on defensive builds. Since we all know this, would like to shoutout the value of Phys defensive Pursuit Tar (something like 248 Hp / 108 Def), as it can fulfill an aero check on those Loom / Mence / Forre teams we've seen running around. I also love bulky Lum DD Grass Tar alongside SubCM Thunder / Ice Jirachi, as it allows you pressure the few things that wall Jirachi while still having a fat TTar in the back for when you need it. Other options I enjoy include Protect, Counter, DD Double Edge, DD Endure Salac, UDTar (I think Fast MixTar could use some resurgence), and CB.
S- Rank: (I think these next two are a cut above the others)
Zapdos is one of the best offense enablers in the tier. I think we've seen the Timid Fast BP die out a bit as people realize the value that SpDef + BP and Twave has on creating offense opportunities. Don't sleep on SubPass either -- one option I've really liked is to combine it w a Focus Punch Gar with enough EVs to live Modest Bliss Ice Beam (248 HP on Zap and 204 SpDef on Gengar will do the trick) so you can get that instant momentum on bliss off of a Skarm/Cune lead as an example. Zap is also one of my favorite options on Forre teams, as its resistances and overall bulk can help save your bliss or celebi against trapping or a rogue MixZap. A cool option I first heard of from Ibidem is to run enough Speed for Ada Hera and Drill Peck, so you're not so vulnerable against Loom and Hera (even Timid 0 Atk Drill Peck OHKOs them) with Rest / Roar or Hp Grass / Tbolt. Fully offensive MixZap is also really awesome too, as you take advantage of those teams that rely on just celebi to be their special wall. Zap + Beat Up dug of course is awesome, but I think people are starting to catch on and not lead mons passive to Zap on their stall teams or run other special walls besides bliss (like pairing it w their own Rest Zap).
Meta is another great offense enabler that also has a lot of defensive versatility. I think its bulk and Explosion is one of the best blanket checks to anything in the tier. Team weak to Starmie after you lost Snorlax? Tank the Hydro and boom on it. Salamence giving you pain? Even max Hp allows you to live any hit and Explode. I personally am really liking the Eq / Tpunch / HP Grass / Explosion set, but I'm also a big fan of CB of course, defensive, and any super fast version (salac or the fast Mix set Cowboy Dan likes). I think Agility is pretty mediocre unless you're running like Smeargle HO w Rock Spam. I think there's some unexplored territory using it as the main Rock resist on some Forre spikes like Marcop used in SPL. Also think its one of the main reasons Mag first starting dropping in usage once people figured out CB Boom killed SpDef skarm and people dropped Protect on Skarm for some reason
A+ Tier:
Like Siglut, I think Celebi belongs up here up at the top of A+ (I don't think people have had it this high since like 2014?). I value versatility pretty highly, and Celebi is one of the most diverse mons in the tier -- Defensive (both SpDef and Phys Def although imo SpDef is better), SuperBi, and CMPass (although I think it has started to be better prepped for) are all great options. Having Leech Seed is such a great tool to force switches, while having the immunity is also very helpful. I think SDPass is a little too inconsistent for my liking -- a lot has to go right to get the pass off, and with Salamence (either CB, or Mix w Roar) being super popular, it is pretty hard to make work beyond the normal inconsistencies of Mag offense. A set I have always enjoyed is CM 2 attacks + Leech seed with a Special wall like Bliss in the back. I enjoy pairing it with Fighters like Yama or Medicham to help them against break through Moltres and Salamence. I think we'll see a bunch more great Celebi builds in the coming year.
I find it hard to put Pert outside of the top 5 in ADV -- even though I love to use other Rock resists, I always come back to Pert in some way due to its insane reliability at its job. I think there are a lot of teams out there cleaved by offensive Pert, although I think the nonbulky (you pretty much need 248 HP) version kinda struggles in the current metagame cause it gets blasted by Aero. Like Eden, my standard is to run the Quiet offensive pert, but I also like EndSalac's ability to break through things Pert should have no ability to get through, like Milo if you cheese w like Swagger. An option I first heard from Asta I like is to try mono Focus Punch w ProTox (perhaps w Surf as well), as you help your Jolt Spikes or other special offense break through Bliss while still giving them some coverage against Rock threats.
Jirachi is another super versatile threat that people have tended to not prepare for as well. A lot of teams really struggle against SubCM Jirachi (especially those super Fat Double Wish stalls and poorly build Forre teams). Defensive Jirachi typically struggles once it takes a Zap TWave, but is still pretty reliable for teams trying to bypass the pain of ZapDug (running SpDef Zap helps here). Superrachi is still a great offensive threat, and physically defensive (either straight up or with CM) can just seem unkillable to some teams. I am not a huge fan of the Mixed set w DynamicPunch as I used to be due to its unreliability, but it is there. Jirachi has seen a rise as people have explored its versatility (can distinctly remember 10 years ago when people only though of Calm Mind sets). I also really enjoy it w DDGrass Tar or w CMPass celebi/Sub Pass Vaporeon -- helps it get through Bliss or any other thing.
A Tier
I am a Mence lover, and really helps to shore your team up against a whole host of threats, most prominently the Fighters and Celebi. Intimidate is also a fantastic tool to help out for weakening threats such as DDTar or Heracross. I think Mixed is probably the in vogue set, but I'm also a big fan of Jolly CB and a fat Protect Wish set (specifically 152 HP / 20 Def / 200 SpA / 136 Spe so you can combat opposing Salamences w Dragon Claw better than the super fat WishProtect set). I think a lot of people have replaced Gar w Mence on their stall teams, as they satisfy the Fighter defensive switch in, but I've had success running them together (like a CB mence aggressively predicting TTar w Brick Break so that Gar can be more free, see my Finals g2 in my set against Mikmer for PP Open 1 as an example for a team). Mence also is a fantastic Breloom partner much like Zard is -- I think we're in peak Mence metagame for now.
And now the Mon people love to shit on, Gengar. I do not prescribe to theory that Gar is washed -- imo any list w Gengar outside the top ten is hard to take seriously. I think Gar is due for a revival -- with Spikes down, nothing is harder to switch into for offensive teams than Taunt Wisp Gengar. Options I really love on it are SpDef Giga Drain, SpDef Taunt Wow Destiny Bond (being able to do your Gengar shenanigans while still removing Tar for something like a SubCune in the back is awesome), double Status, HP Grass, and Hypno Focus Punch. Gar also shores your team up against Fighters with its fast Explosion, while also stopping Celebi from passing w its fast Taunt (although watch out for Psychic). Gengar I think is gonna make a comeback despite Pursuit Tar's high usage, especially since a lot of teams are relying solely on an unreliable trapper to remove it. I think it is also great on Spikeless builds -- Roro ran a fantastic team w Jynx + Dug to remove Tar for Gar to run rampant, and it always is nice to remove Bliss the old fashion way by boom + Dug (even if this is pretty predictable). I also like the linear option of running it on Medi + Meta + Celebi + Star team for that opposing Fighter counter.
Another mon people have loved to bash, Blissey. As someone who used to think Bliss was the second best mon in the tier, I think the key to getting the most out of Blissey's incredible potential is to build properly w it. Having leads that immediately are forced out by Zapdos, not having other options for switching into special threats, and having Bliss be your only way to revenge Mence is a recipe for disaster in the current meta. Bliss's bulk is accentuated w Spikes and Sand up -- even things like SD Pass can be annoyed by Bliss repeatedly clicking Seismic Toss or Ice Beam. Bliss can also shore up a team against mixed attackers, as without Fighting coverage, it can be quite difficult to 2HKO reliably. I think people will start diversifying their special wall slot or run things alongside Bliss, but I think it is still quite reliable. Shout out to Aromatherapy, Toxic Snatch (and Toxic in general), and of course Fire or Electric Bliss.
If you asked me a few months ago, I would have had Skarm in the next tier or even lower, but I've been liking recent builds w it. Skarm is one of the more iconic threats in ADV, as Spikes makes so many mons much greater threats while it is also the former gold standard for physical walling. I really like dropping Roar on Skarm (as long as you can handle Metagross well), as being able to have both the ProTox that made Skarm so good in 2016/2017 while also having Drill Peck for Fighters is great. A set I don't really like right now is YOLOskarm, as Mag is pretty bad in the current metagame and having a Skarm without HP or Special bulk feels painful (a SpDef Gar tbolt does about double the damage) and it is hard to get the spikes up. Like CB Meta boom, I think Taunt Skarm is another reason Mag usage has dropped due to its Spikes preventing utilities.
A- tier:
I think Dug is a very polarizing mon -- on one hand, it is partially responsible for helping make bliss less secure about its metagame placement, while on the other, making a defensive team w only five slots forcing you into predictable defensive builds or missing key utility. However, Dug is undeniably great at simplifying the game -- a lot of top mons are trappable, and being able to trap TTar and then remove Sand for something like a Suicune is fantastic. A pairing I like in the current meta is both Sunny Day Dug + Suicune and the classic Skarm + Dug. Spikes makes it a lot easier to trap the threats you need to. I am not as high on CM Spam w Dug as I was, I personally think the best CM Spams drop Dug to make the team more powerful.
I think the biggest winner of the "Gar sucks" chant is Forre. I'd argue that Forre is the best option in the game for the hazards war -- while not nearly as good as a wall as Skarm, its durability, relative difficulty in trapping, and access to both Spikes and Rapid Spin make it good at getting Spikes up for you an removing them. An option I really like on Forre is Counter, as it helps you out a lot on the phys def side by counter strong attacks while still covering you against Mag to an extent. I think the meta is gonna come for Forre soon, as the same forces in like 2015/2016 that brought Forre back down (like more Fire spam, SpDef Gengar, more offensive threats to take advantage of Forre's lack of offense) could return. But right now, I like it here.
Aero can sometimes just bullshit its way to win games. I think Aero Spikes teams are one of the strongest teams against cheese or other non optimal structures. I think Aero also is pretty underrated defensively -- it stops CM Celebi from passing w HP Bug, is the best nontrapper revenge killer in the game by being faster than everything, it is a pretty good MixMence counter, and can remove DDTar w HP Fighting if you choose to go that route. I wish I could have it higher up, as it just cleaves through people cheating on their defense for more speed, but a well build team can sometimes make Aero feel a little lost. Niche options like Curse or SD pass are nice on specific teams.
I personally have relatively high Suicune usage, but I feel it needs to be all the way down here. Cune can be really awesome w a lot of support, but it is susceptible to a lot of metagame conditions like sand and Spikes. I find offensive Cune w/o rest or Sub to be mediocre -- Resting sets have a ton of potential, but need to be built around. Cune's functional bulk also helps it act a Rock resist if sand isn't up. I love Suicune on Explosion offense, as well as with Sunny Day Dugtrio. I do not like it as much as a replacement to Milotic on Spikes teams unless alongside Aroma Bliss or Heal Bell Celebi even if it has a great Roar and defensive utility on those teams. SubCune also requires a team built around it, but can absolutely devastating w Rain Dance.
I think Lax is due for a rise in the next installment, as people as running teams very weak to good ole curse lax. Forre teams typically only have Ttar to phase it out, as Forre is set up bait for it. I think Curse Boom is great (it can get rid of Skarm, but I like to run it with something else that gets rid of Skarm to take advantage), but I like it alongside Claydol, as it helps you out from being so weak to special threat w sand and Spikes. I think dropping the normal coverage on these sets can be pretty great. A Curse, Rest, EQ lax I think is gonna be the next big metagame adjustment bc those teams people ran in SPL are quite weak to it.
B+ tier:
I'm a huge Claydol spammer. I think it is quite nice get your special wall in against Zapdos without immediately losing it to Dugtrio/getting worn down by Tbolt. There was a period where I had a Claydol, Starmie, or Forretress on every team I build, simply bc the utility of Spin is so high. I do like the double spinner archetype w Forre, Boom spam w Off Claydol, and just good ole Skarm beatdown. An option I'm really liking is to run 248 HP 136 Atk / 112 Def to dodge the 2HKO from Aero Double Edge while still being a threat. It also is a great answer to the Fighters and generally helps keep your Snorlax healthy from Tbolt on Spikeless offense.
Another Mon I use a lot of, Starmie. I think Bolt Star is a little over saturated in the metagame, but it is a quite nice Swampert/Meta answer while still being fast enough for Moltres as well as of course being a great spinner. Be careful about getting trapped by TTar Pursuit (I like a little SpDef on it so this doesn't happen) or blanking your Rapid Spin into Gar when you could have Para'd or hit it. I haven't used an OffStar in quite some time -- I don't think it is bad, but it feels very match up dependent. I think the 3 attacks Spin is pretty mediocre. I do think OffStar is due for a rise, if only Hydro didn't miss.
I love the fire bird. It is definitely a mon that can run into some great matchups -- those Jolt Spikes teams typically really struggle to switch into it (shoutout hclat). Even Milo can struggle to switch into Modest HP Grass w Spikes down (please run Modest on your Moltres). It quite enjoys Bliss's usage dropping. An option I really like on it is Protect, which helps your team be less weak to Aero. Sunny Day + Morning Sun is one of the better weather clearers. I don't really agree that using Zap is better, as Molt's unique ability to shred offensive teams w Fire + Grass + Wow while giving the team a check to Hera is under-appreciated.
Missing Megahorn is such a pain. I feel like it'd be a tier higher if it didn't miss (which it never seems to do against me :( ). Hera is the 6-0 machine though, and is the bane of poorly build defensive teams. It doesn't like being in the Mence era much, but Sub Salac sets clean like few others and CB tears teams apart. I also am a big fan of the Linear bulky set w Thief on it, but not as much as I was a few months ago. It pretty much forces teams to run some kind of Flyer, Gengar, or trap it w Dug lest than want to be annihilated
I think Vaporeon belongs back in OU -- its offensive SubPass set generate momentum like few others while its defensive sets are the bane of Suicune. It lost a great partner in Mr. Mime on MaedPass, but it still is a great Wish mon. A pairing I really like is w Medicham -- passing a 101 HP sub from the lead spot against Bliss is a guaranteed KO on anything in the game w Lefties Medicham. An underrated option I feel is Roar over Ice Beam on the Offensive SubPass set, as Hclat showed last SPL, prevents slow Roar Cune from being a counter. Vaporeon also survives all kinds of dumb stuff at full health, like DD Tar Rock Slide, Mence boosted HP Flying, Zap Tbolt, and others. Defensive Vaporeon needs to be run w a Heal Beller, but is really good at being an alternative option to Milo that shores the team up against Suicune.
Another Mon I think should be OU, Yama is a great option both w offensive and hyper stall options. Pairing it w defensive Star is a great option to help mitigate Skarm without a Magneton. Knock Off is obviously great, and Focus Punch + Coverage hits really hard. Doesn't enjoy the Mence metagame that we're currently in, but Knock + Sand is always a great wallbreaker. Another option I like to help w teams without a good Heracross answer is to run HP Flying, as it takes Megahorns fairly well. I don't think it ever should be your only Rock resist unless you're running a super physically fat Pursuit Tyranitar and Wish support. I think we've already hit peak Hariyama, but it still is a great option
B tier:
Loom has finally gotten its due as a scary Sleep + Fighting option. Being able to almost always get a Spore off is a fantastic ability and its triple Fighting set has really been a boon for teams that drop Gengar for more offensive coverage over the last year+. I think you should always run Jolly -- being able to get Spore off against the 244-252 tier is invaluable. I've experimented w bulky Breloom and thought it was pretty mediocre. I think running other Hidden Powers is quite nice -- running Bug to nail Celebi or Ghost to get Gengar is quite nice. It also helps reduce the dependence on Pursuit Tar. I think we will see an adjustment in the meta to help combat Breloom, but I have been enjoying the innovation like w SubPunch and SD Loom.
I think Milo is a bit ass right now. It of course walls Mixed threats forever, and is awesome alongside Celebi or on any team that needs a lot of threats checked in one slot. However, it is really passive and hard to prevent Metagross from Exploding on a key member. I don't think the offensive sets are are really worth it, and Milo really needs Refresh to not be completely helpless to Toxic. I think pairing it besides another Rock resist is pretty mandatory.
I feel like teams relying on Magneton to remove Skarm or Forre can feel hard to justify in the current meta. I personally think the only Mag worth using is one w Magnet and Forre bulk, as not shoring yourself up against those threats is rather painful. Some teams need it to function, but smart play from Skarm or Forre can make your team getting worn down relatively quickly. I do think Mag has some nice utility as a switch in against CB threats w its resistances as well as forcing damage on Bliss teams w Toxic. I suppose rain support or EndSalac are there, but don't feel very good in the current meta. MagDol also feels like a matchup fish at this point
Flygon is another good Rock resist that isn't affected by Spikes -- however, it primary issue is being OHKOed by so many Ice-type moves. I am a fan of the Rest sets, whereas the offensive sets need quite a bit of support, but can feel fantastic w Pursuit Tar and maybe Mag as well due to its high speed and great coverage. I'm not a huge fan of CB, I like the berry options Hclat has experimented w, but can feel easily walled. I think relying on Flygon to pivot Zapdos can be a fool's errand due to HP Ice, but works well on highly offensive teams that use Zapdos or Jolt as their main special wall.
P2 is quite good at its niche of removing Dug and being prob the game's best counter to Salamence. Its also one of the best Para spreaders. It's bulk is deceptive esp not in sand -- tanking things like Molt Flamethrower, Aero, and Starmie. However, I find that unless it is absolutely needed for Dug removal, it is extremely passive and often can be fulfilled with another mon. Even Gardevoir or Salac Dug can do what P2 does wrt to removing opposing Dug. P2 gives momentum to Meta and Lax while also giving Bliss a super free softboiled. It can also lull teams w multiple Ground weaks into a false sense of security by removing Dug, but then being weak to Spikes or generally being weak to Earthquake.
B- tier:
I feel like Venu's viability is really hurt by the prominence of TWave Zap. I also think that other Venus besides Timid max Speed are viable -- Gacusaur (max Calm special bulk w 252 speed) is also quite nice. I think it was Watermess who said Venu fits only on teams that can really use that extra momentum from Sleep + Seed, and I agree -- looking at my Venu teams, the best partners I found were Forre/Skarm spikes or SubPunch and ZapDug. I think it absolutely needs back up in the special wall slot -- I think this mon could definitely use some more innovation.
I am a big fan of Steelix -- being immune to Aero's Rock Slide and being the best Steel type against both Mag and Dug is quite nice. I think teams like the Forre + Steelix and Gyara + Steelix are quite good, as they give the team options to absorb CB Meta without having to risk the Water. However, despite my love for lix, it is very passive -- games against Skarm teams feel like inexorable Stall walls or force the usage of Magneton. I've been experimenting w Boom teams w Steelix, think it is one of the best BLs.
Jynx is one of the best offensive leads in the metagame -- it immediately forces a trap on TTar and Meta while gaining momentum on all leads except like modest CroCune. I've tried the occasional midgame Jynx, but I feel like most Jynx builds have been optimized pretty well -- you're pretty much required to run Dug, but Jynx can just 6-0 some teams w Ice Beam and HP Fire/Psychic and Calm Mind. Jynx's main problem is the brutal accuracy on Lovely Kiss, sleep RNG, and the prominence of Jolly CB Mence leads, but if you're willing to risk that, Jynx is one of the best options for CM Spam archetypes in the current meta.
I have real problems w Cloy in the current meta. It dies so quickly, and w the reemergence of Claydol, Starmie, and Forretress over the last two years has really hurt Cloy's viability. Cloy forces you to run Gengar for this reason, of which teambuilding feel quite restrictive in making sure everything is covered. However, Cloy is the only Spiker that can't be trapped easily, as well as has less variance than the other two HO Spikers, Smeargle and Yoloskarm. Cloy is also quite good at gaining momentum on bulky waters. Cloy's style also is quite prediction dependent to make sure one gets the most out of its Boom and Spikes combination, and as such, can feel quite inconsistent.
Like Cloy, Zard can feel quite inconsistent -- it is arguably the most prediction heavy non Choice Band Mon in the entire metagame. However, getting the Focus Punch on Tar or Bliss can win games, and if the opponent doesn't have Milo or Suicune, the opportunity can arise frequently. Zard also suffers from Heracross syndrome -- missing Fire Blast on Zapdos or Gengar can be soul crushing at times. I think the Sunny Day Blast Burn set is fun, as well as Beat Up (with or without the gimmicky Fire Spin to trap Bliss). If the meta goes more offensive, definitely looking forward to more Zard.
Again, another very inconsistent mon. I find Jolt Spikes to be very hard to use, as I constantly feel I am one Suicune Hydro Pump or Molt Flamethrower away from losing the game. However, it is undeniable these teams have found success on ladder and in the past. My take on it is to run more bulk -- I've used 144 HP and 8 Sp Def to Tank Suicune's +1 Hydro Pump while running enough speed for Dugtrio. Think Wish is a nice option -- run it alongside things that can take care of Bliss and Spikes.
Medicham is one of the scariest Fighters in the game. Nothing walls Medicham outside of Super Fat ProTox WishMence or maybe Weezing. I think Medi's bulk is rather underrated, as even w a small amount of investment it can live DDTar Eq and Jolly Dug Eq. I think CB is rather bad on Medi despite the insane power -- lefties or even Black Belt or Lum (lures Gengar like a charm) allows you to switch moves and 480 Attack does quite a bit of damage. I think we've seen some nice Medi builds in the metagame, although I think the hype has died down a bit. One of my favorite tools on my bulkier teams
I really struggled where to put Gyarados -- I think it has some good sets like TWave, Taunt HP Rock (pairing it w Knock Off for Skarm is amazing), HP Ghost Gyara, etc. But it is so unbelievably weak even at +1 and is hard countered by Zapdos. Even on SD Pass at +3, Gyara stills struggles to get kills. Teams that it should ravage can typically tank a hit and boom on it or hit it w like TTar Rock Slide. It also almost 100% requires Magneton to function. However, if teams are lacking options for it, it can be quite devastating. I think Rest DD bulky Gyara is pretty bad right now, but I would love to be wrong.
C+ Tier:
Despite recently dropping to BL, Ice man can be effective w the right support. It is great as a back up special wall and likes Dug support for its pathetically weak Explosion to get the trap on Bliss. It does a good job spreading Twave and hitting things hard w Ice Beam. Being weak to TTar and Meta really shafts its viability, however.
Smeargle is main HO Spiker in the metagame (I think it is a lot better than Yoloskarm). Infinite options and access to Spore help teams built around Rock spam + Agiligross function. I think previous iterations of the metagame w BP allowed on it were a lot more favorable for it, but it's got a decent Speed tier and just enough bulk to tank hits and activate that Salac to get off a STAB Boom, Spikes, or really whatever it wants.
I think Armaldo has a lot of unexplored territory both w other options and in teams. Knock Off is always excellent and it has a great offensive typing. It of course is the best Snorlax counter in the game w Harden, but it also can use HP Bug to OHKO offensive Celebi while being deceptively bulky. The mons that hurt its viability are not as good, with the exception of Metagross. Be on the lookout for it
Kingdra Rain can be quite good if built around it. Think it is a great receiver for CM Pass Celebi. Like Sub on it, as well as HP Grass to not have to risk HPump's horrible accuracy. While Kingdra's bulky, it can be hard to justify letting the cleaner take a big hit to revenge like a DDTar for example. Think Kingdra isn't as viable as it used to be, but still can be effective.
I love Raikou, but I think the hype behind Lead Toxic has worn off and we're left w all the normal Raikou problems. Sub CM can sweep w the best of them if it receives a CM Pass from Celebi, and the rogue CMRest can be quite nice w support. Still think it is quite effective in the right match up, however.
Blaziken hype has definitely worn off from last SPL -- it still is a Big 5 killer that can quite some damage behind a Sub. An underrated option that Asta showed me was max attack Focus Punch -- being able to 2HKO Milo behind a sub is quite impressive. Think it really didn't like Zapdos running a lot of bulk as the standard, but it still can be effective in the right match up against standard TSS.
I used to be a big Weezing fan, but I now find it pretty hard to build with. I liked it on Boom offense w Naughty HP Fighting, Fire Blast, and Wow, but it can feel difficult to use. I found Gar to just work better in the slot I used Weezing unless I really needed help against Drill Peck Skarm. I think Taunt can still be effective, and it of course has a much stronger boom and physical bulk than Gengar.
Donphan needs so much support to be usable -- pursuit trapper for Gar, Magneton, special wall, etc. But it is the best DDTar counter in the game (besides Groudon lol) and can be quite effective against Aero Spikes teams. Don't think the metagame has really affected it all that much -- might see a comeback if CurseLax sees a resurgence.
Umbreon pretty much only fits if you want a Pursuiter that doesn't bring sand or you want to use a physical ttar. It is quite good at its niche -- it pretty guarantees Gengar's removal next time it comes in if you switch into WoW and it hits if you're smart and invest in SpA. I find my Umbreon teams typically can struggle against the classic Gar + OffStar combo if I don't run a Heal Beller. You can also be cheeky and run Vapicuno's Mean Look pass too, be on the lookout for that.
That other Pursuiter. Like Umbreon, run Houndoom if you want to run a physical Tar or don't want sand. However, unlike Umbreon, Houndoom fulfills almost no defensive niche, so it is more restrictive in terms of team building. On the other hand, Houndoom's Pursuit is much stronger than both Umbreon and Ttar's, so it can actually remove SpDef Gar instead of chipping it w a good roll. I think there are some under-explored options on Doom like Beat Up, but it feels so restrictive to build w you might not ever see those options.
Registeel is infuriating to play against -- it never dies and has Counter if you try to use physical moves on it then Rests off the damage while spreading Paralysis. It pretty much only fits on hyper stall teams w Forretress, but its defensive utility is undeniable. I've seen curse + boom sets, but I've had a hard time fitting them, although definitely theorymonned them as a back up special wall if curse + boom lax dies.
Like Hclat, I also see Scizor as more of a Fighting mon than as a Bug mon. It can definitely match up fish for someone who doesn't know what's up w the EndSalac Reversal. I also think it can be a decent CB mon w Baton Pass acting like U-Turn for Mag to switch in. I think the SD passer can have some viability on hyper offense. At the same time, I don't think it is consistent at all and that HP Bug is doing very little damage otherwise.
C Tier:
Cross Chop accuracy makes me hate this mon. I swear its like 60% accurate and misses at the worst possible times. I think it's only really viable as either Bulk Up or CB. I liked Linear's teams w it -- it is enormously powerful if you can predict well as well as being deceptively bulky with investment. If only No Guard was in Adv...
The fish! I think Lanturn has become underrated after it was overrated over the summer. I'm not a huge fan, but it can be effective in the right circumstances. I typically just set up on it w Suicune or just kind of ignore its coverage, but it is absolutely a great Starmie counter and Volt Absorb is quite helpful. It is good when you don't want to be so passive against special threats.
Marowak is prob the best Speed pass recipient in ADV -- almost every good adv player has been swept by this getting Speed passed from Ninjask or Zapdos on the ladder. It also fits on some defensive teams as a breaker w Para support. Can live some weak attacks, but this thing took a hit to its viability once Mime got banned.
I think Eggy is the most underrated mon in ADV. Sleep + Boom is always a good combo, and it has a good movepool with options like Wish and of course the standard Psy / Grass / Fire coverage. Eggy really made me appreciate how good Celebi's stats are, because even to live Dug's HP Bug, you need insane investment. It is prob best to run speed for base 70 creep, enough bulk for Swampert ice beam, and then put the rest in SpA. Can be a good option for some Spikeless offenses.
Linear showed us all how effective Jumpluff Spikes can be after I think UD theorymonned this Poke. Still think it only really fits on very specific teams, but in that niche (preventing set up w Encore, Sleep, SubSeed) it is bar none the best at it.
Demon bug! I think Ninjask is probably going to eventually get banned, but it is undeniably the best Dugtrio punisher in the game and definitely the best Speed passer. I can't tell how many times I raged at this thing when I lost my Sand Veil (RIP Cacturne and Gligar in these rankings) req accounts to teams w this thing. Maybe the Mime banning will finally be what's needed for this thing not to be awful?
Dusclops is so bad. I have tried to make this thing work in modern ADV, but it is just so uniquely bad, I don't know how to justify running this over Gengar or even alongside it if you Destiny Bond the Tar. I think the Snatch Wow Thief set is pretty cool, as is the attack invested set w Shadow Ball Wow Pain Split and Focus Punch. But its so unbelievably slow and weak -- I guess that Sean B guy annoys me w it whenever I play him on ladder.
Good ole Zammer. Zam has an awesome movepool, a great Speed tier, and SpA stat. It can be quite effective w four attacks, Knock off, or a Calm Mind. So what gives? It just has no defensive niche whatsoever. It has to risk the speed tie w Dug. I have seen it work on some Jolt Spikes and as a kinda pseudo suicide lead for Dug, but Jynx or Raikou just do that way better. If it had Magic Guard and Focus Sash, I could see it be amazing like in BW, but it instead sucks in ADV.
Gardevoir can actually be kind of effective -- it is a much more offensive Dug trapper w Trace and can be annoying w Taunt, Salac, and Destiny Bond. Pokology stalled the shit out of me w a ProTox Wish specially defensive Gardevoir. It is pretty decent option that prob needs some more exploring.
I swear every time I try to make Ludicolo work as a rain sweeper or as a bulky leech seed attacker, it disappoints me. I just find it to be too weak or too frail to do anything of note. I know some people love it, but count me out.
Camel! I'll repeat what I said in the earlier thread -- a Ground-type that can't counter TTar and is immediately removed by ZapDug is rather hard to build around. It is quite nice that it is a great counter to Defensive Zap and Gengar. It also has Explosion and good offensive stats. But it is so unbelievably slowwwwwwwwww. Previous iterations of the metagame were kinder to it.
Everything else really isn't worth using (like Slaking or Rhydon) or I haven't really experimented w it enough to comment (like Miltank, Dragonite, Solrock, or Politoed). Seen them on ladder, though.
Thanks for reading!
S Rank:
Tyranitar is of course the best Mon in the tier -- I think it bares repeating, but even if it had no moves or EVs, Tar's sand would be defining in Adv due to pressure it puts on defensive builds. Since we all know this, would like to shoutout the value of Phys defensive Pursuit Tar (something like 248 Hp / 108 Def), as it can fulfill an aero check on those Loom / Mence / Forre teams we've seen running around. I also love bulky Lum DD Grass Tar alongside SubCM Thunder / Ice Jirachi, as it allows you pressure the few things that wall Jirachi while still having a fat TTar in the back for when you need it. Other options I enjoy include Protect, Counter, DD Double Edge, DD Endure Salac, UDTar (I think Fast MixTar could use some resurgence), and CB.
S- Rank: (I think these next two are a cut above the others)
Zapdos is one of the best offense enablers in the tier. I think we've seen the Timid Fast BP die out a bit as people realize the value that SpDef + BP and Twave has on creating offense opportunities. Don't sleep on SubPass either -- one option I've really liked is to combine it w a Focus Punch Gar with enough EVs to live Modest Bliss Ice Beam (248 HP on Zap and 204 SpDef on Gengar will do the trick) so you can get that instant momentum on bliss off of a Skarm/Cune lead as an example. Zap is also one of my favorite options on Forre teams, as its resistances and overall bulk can help save your bliss or celebi against trapping or a rogue MixZap. A cool option I first heard of from Ibidem is to run enough Speed for Ada Hera and Drill Peck, so you're not so vulnerable against Loom and Hera (even Timid 0 Atk Drill Peck OHKOs them) with Rest / Roar or Hp Grass / Tbolt. Fully offensive MixZap is also really awesome too, as you take advantage of those teams that rely on just celebi to be their special wall. Zap + Beat Up dug of course is awesome, but I think people are starting to catch on and not lead mons passive to Zap on their stall teams or run other special walls besides bliss (like pairing it w their own Rest Zap).
Meta is another great offense enabler that also has a lot of defensive versatility. I think its bulk and Explosion is one of the best blanket checks to anything in the tier. Team weak to Starmie after you lost Snorlax? Tank the Hydro and boom on it. Salamence giving you pain? Even max Hp allows you to live any hit and Explode. I personally am really liking the Eq / Tpunch / HP Grass / Explosion set, but I'm also a big fan of CB of course, defensive, and any super fast version (salac or the fast Mix set Cowboy Dan likes). I think Agility is pretty mediocre unless you're running like Smeargle HO w Rock Spam. I think there's some unexplored territory using it as the main Rock resist on some Forre spikes like Marcop used in SPL. Also think its one of the main reasons Mag first starting dropping in usage once people figured out CB Boom killed SpDef skarm and people dropped Protect on Skarm for some reason
A+ Tier:
Like Siglut, I think Celebi belongs up here up at the top of A+ (I don't think people have had it this high since like 2014?). I value versatility pretty highly, and Celebi is one of the most diverse mons in the tier -- Defensive (both SpDef and Phys Def although imo SpDef is better), SuperBi, and CMPass (although I think it has started to be better prepped for) are all great options. Having Leech Seed is such a great tool to force switches, while having the immunity is also very helpful. I think SDPass is a little too inconsistent for my liking -- a lot has to go right to get the pass off, and with Salamence (either CB, or Mix w Roar) being super popular, it is pretty hard to make work beyond the normal inconsistencies of Mag offense. A set I have always enjoyed is CM 2 attacks + Leech seed with a Special wall like Bliss in the back. I enjoy pairing it with Fighters like Yama or Medicham to help them against break through Moltres and Salamence. I think we'll see a bunch more great Celebi builds in the coming year.
I find it hard to put Pert outside of the top 5 in ADV -- even though I love to use other Rock resists, I always come back to Pert in some way due to its insane reliability at its job. I think there are a lot of teams out there cleaved by offensive Pert, although I think the nonbulky (you pretty much need 248 HP) version kinda struggles in the current metagame cause it gets blasted by Aero. Like Eden, my standard is to run the Quiet offensive pert, but I also like EndSalac's ability to break through things Pert should have no ability to get through, like Milo if you cheese w like Swagger. An option I first heard from Asta I like is to try mono Focus Punch w ProTox (perhaps w Surf as well), as you help your Jolt Spikes or other special offense break through Bliss while still giving them some coverage against Rock threats.
Jirachi is another super versatile threat that people have tended to not prepare for as well. A lot of teams really struggle against SubCM Jirachi (especially those super Fat Double Wish stalls and poorly build Forre teams). Defensive Jirachi typically struggles once it takes a Zap TWave, but is still pretty reliable for teams trying to bypass the pain of ZapDug (running SpDef Zap helps here). Superrachi is still a great offensive threat, and physically defensive (either straight up or with CM) can just seem unkillable to some teams. I am not a huge fan of the Mixed set w DynamicPunch as I used to be due to its unreliability, but it is there. Jirachi has seen a rise as people have explored its versatility (can distinctly remember 10 years ago when people only though of Calm Mind sets). I also really enjoy it w DDGrass Tar or w CMPass celebi/Sub Pass Vaporeon -- helps it get through Bliss or any other thing.
A Tier
I am a Mence lover, and really helps to shore your team up against a whole host of threats, most prominently the Fighters and Celebi. Intimidate is also a fantastic tool to help out for weakening threats such as DDTar or Heracross. I think Mixed is probably the in vogue set, but I'm also a big fan of Jolly CB and a fat Protect Wish set (specifically 152 HP / 20 Def / 200 SpA / 136 Spe so you can combat opposing Salamences w Dragon Claw better than the super fat WishProtect set). I think a lot of people have replaced Gar w Mence on their stall teams, as they satisfy the Fighter defensive switch in, but I've had success running them together (like a CB mence aggressively predicting TTar w Brick Break so that Gar can be more free, see my Finals g2 in my set against Mikmer for PP Open 1 as an example for a team). Mence also is a fantastic Breloom partner much like Zard is -- I think we're in peak Mence metagame for now.
And now the Mon people love to shit on, Gengar. I do not prescribe to theory that Gar is washed -- imo any list w Gengar outside the top ten is hard to take seriously. I think Gar is due for a revival -- with Spikes down, nothing is harder to switch into for offensive teams than Taunt Wisp Gengar. Options I really love on it are SpDef Giga Drain, SpDef Taunt Wow Destiny Bond (being able to do your Gengar shenanigans while still removing Tar for something like a SubCune in the back is awesome), double Status, HP Grass, and Hypno Focus Punch. Gar also shores your team up against Fighters with its fast Explosion, while also stopping Celebi from passing w its fast Taunt (although watch out for Psychic). Gengar I think is gonna make a comeback despite Pursuit Tar's high usage, especially since a lot of teams are relying solely on an unreliable trapper to remove it. I think it is also great on Spikeless builds -- Roro ran a fantastic team w Jynx + Dug to remove Tar for Gar to run rampant, and it always is nice to remove Bliss the old fashion way by boom + Dug (even if this is pretty predictable). I also like the linear option of running it on Medi + Meta + Celebi + Star team for that opposing Fighter counter.
Another mon people have loved to bash, Blissey. As someone who used to think Bliss was the second best mon in the tier, I think the key to getting the most out of Blissey's incredible potential is to build properly w it. Having leads that immediately are forced out by Zapdos, not having other options for switching into special threats, and having Bliss be your only way to revenge Mence is a recipe for disaster in the current meta. Bliss's bulk is accentuated w Spikes and Sand up -- even things like SD Pass can be annoyed by Bliss repeatedly clicking Seismic Toss or Ice Beam. Bliss can also shore up a team against mixed attackers, as without Fighting coverage, it can be quite difficult to 2HKO reliably. I think people will start diversifying their special wall slot or run things alongside Bliss, but I think it is still quite reliable. Shout out to Aromatherapy, Toxic Snatch (and Toxic in general), and of course Fire or Electric Bliss.
If you asked me a few months ago, I would have had Skarm in the next tier or even lower, but I've been liking recent builds w it. Skarm is one of the more iconic threats in ADV, as Spikes makes so many mons much greater threats while it is also the former gold standard for physical walling. I really like dropping Roar on Skarm (as long as you can handle Metagross well), as being able to have both the ProTox that made Skarm so good in 2016/2017 while also having Drill Peck for Fighters is great. A set I don't really like right now is YOLOskarm, as Mag is pretty bad in the current metagame and having a Skarm without HP or Special bulk feels painful (a SpDef Gar tbolt does about double the damage) and it is hard to get the spikes up. Like CB Meta boom, I think Taunt Skarm is another reason Mag usage has dropped due to its Spikes preventing utilities.
A- tier:
I think Dug is a very polarizing mon -- on one hand, it is partially responsible for helping make bliss less secure about its metagame placement, while on the other, making a defensive team w only five slots forcing you into predictable defensive builds or missing key utility. However, Dug is undeniably great at simplifying the game -- a lot of top mons are trappable, and being able to trap TTar and then remove Sand for something like a Suicune is fantastic. A pairing I like in the current meta is both Sunny Day Dug + Suicune and the classic Skarm + Dug. Spikes makes it a lot easier to trap the threats you need to. I am not as high on CM Spam w Dug as I was, I personally think the best CM Spams drop Dug to make the team more powerful.
I think the biggest winner of the "Gar sucks" chant is Forre. I'd argue that Forre is the best option in the game for the hazards war -- while not nearly as good as a wall as Skarm, its durability, relative difficulty in trapping, and access to both Spikes and Rapid Spin make it good at getting Spikes up for you an removing them. An option I really like on Forre is Counter, as it helps you out a lot on the phys def side by counter strong attacks while still covering you against Mag to an extent. I think the meta is gonna come for Forre soon, as the same forces in like 2015/2016 that brought Forre back down (like more Fire spam, SpDef Gengar, more offensive threats to take advantage of Forre's lack of offense) could return. But right now, I like it here.
Aero can sometimes just bullshit its way to win games. I think Aero Spikes teams are one of the strongest teams against cheese or other non optimal structures. I think Aero also is pretty underrated defensively -- it stops CM Celebi from passing w HP Bug, is the best nontrapper revenge killer in the game by being faster than everything, it is a pretty good MixMence counter, and can remove DDTar w HP Fighting if you choose to go that route. I wish I could have it higher up, as it just cleaves through people cheating on their defense for more speed, but a well build team can sometimes make Aero feel a little lost. Niche options like Curse or SD pass are nice on specific teams.
I personally have relatively high Suicune usage, but I feel it needs to be all the way down here. Cune can be really awesome w a lot of support, but it is susceptible to a lot of metagame conditions like sand and Spikes. I find offensive Cune w/o rest or Sub to be mediocre -- Resting sets have a ton of potential, but need to be built around. Cune's functional bulk also helps it act a Rock resist if sand isn't up. I love Suicune on Explosion offense, as well as with Sunny Day Dugtrio. I do not like it as much as a replacement to Milotic on Spikes teams unless alongside Aroma Bliss or Heal Bell Celebi even if it has a great Roar and defensive utility on those teams. SubCune also requires a team built around it, but can absolutely devastating w Rain Dance.
I think Lax is due for a rise in the next installment, as people as running teams very weak to good ole curse lax. Forre teams typically only have Ttar to phase it out, as Forre is set up bait for it. I think Curse Boom is great (it can get rid of Skarm, but I like to run it with something else that gets rid of Skarm to take advantage), but I like it alongside Claydol, as it helps you out from being so weak to special threat w sand and Spikes. I think dropping the normal coverage on these sets can be pretty great. A Curse, Rest, EQ lax I think is gonna be the next big metagame adjustment bc those teams people ran in SPL are quite weak to it.
B+ tier:
I'm a huge Claydol spammer. I think it is quite nice get your special wall in against Zapdos without immediately losing it to Dugtrio/getting worn down by Tbolt. There was a period where I had a Claydol, Starmie, or Forretress on every team I build, simply bc the utility of Spin is so high. I do like the double spinner archetype w Forre, Boom spam w Off Claydol, and just good ole Skarm beatdown. An option I'm really liking is to run 248 HP 136 Atk / 112 Def to dodge the 2HKO from Aero Double Edge while still being a threat. It also is a great answer to the Fighters and generally helps keep your Snorlax healthy from Tbolt on Spikeless offense.
Another Mon I use a lot of, Starmie. I think Bolt Star is a little over saturated in the metagame, but it is a quite nice Swampert/Meta answer while still being fast enough for Moltres as well as of course being a great spinner. Be careful about getting trapped by TTar Pursuit (I like a little SpDef on it so this doesn't happen) or blanking your Rapid Spin into Gar when you could have Para'd or hit it. I haven't used an OffStar in quite some time -- I don't think it is bad, but it feels very match up dependent. I think the 3 attacks Spin is pretty mediocre. I do think OffStar is due for a rise, if only Hydro didn't miss.
I love the fire bird. It is definitely a mon that can run into some great matchups -- those Jolt Spikes teams typically really struggle to switch into it (shoutout hclat). Even Milo can struggle to switch into Modest HP Grass w Spikes down (please run Modest on your Moltres). It quite enjoys Bliss's usage dropping. An option I really like on it is Protect, which helps your team be less weak to Aero. Sunny Day + Morning Sun is one of the better weather clearers. I don't really agree that using Zap is better, as Molt's unique ability to shred offensive teams w Fire + Grass + Wow while giving the team a check to Hera is under-appreciated.
Missing Megahorn is such a pain. I feel like it'd be a tier higher if it didn't miss (which it never seems to do against me :( ). Hera is the 6-0 machine though, and is the bane of poorly build defensive teams. It doesn't like being in the Mence era much, but Sub Salac sets clean like few others and CB tears teams apart. I also am a big fan of the Linear bulky set w Thief on it, but not as much as I was a few months ago. It pretty much forces teams to run some kind of Flyer, Gengar, or trap it w Dug lest than want to be annihilated
I think Vaporeon belongs back in OU -- its offensive SubPass set generate momentum like few others while its defensive sets are the bane of Suicune. It lost a great partner in Mr. Mime on MaedPass, but it still is a great Wish mon. A pairing I really like is w Medicham -- passing a 101 HP sub from the lead spot against Bliss is a guaranteed KO on anything in the game w Lefties Medicham. An underrated option I feel is Roar over Ice Beam on the Offensive SubPass set, as Hclat showed last SPL, prevents slow Roar Cune from being a counter. Vaporeon also survives all kinds of dumb stuff at full health, like DD Tar Rock Slide, Mence boosted HP Flying, Zap Tbolt, and others. Defensive Vaporeon needs to be run w a Heal Beller, but is really good at being an alternative option to Milo that shores the team up against Suicune.
Another Mon I think should be OU, Yama is a great option both w offensive and hyper stall options. Pairing it w defensive Star is a great option to help mitigate Skarm without a Magneton. Knock Off is obviously great, and Focus Punch + Coverage hits really hard. Doesn't enjoy the Mence metagame that we're currently in, but Knock + Sand is always a great wallbreaker. Another option I like to help w teams without a good Heracross answer is to run HP Flying, as it takes Megahorns fairly well. I don't think it ever should be your only Rock resist unless you're running a super physically fat Pursuit Tyranitar and Wish support. I think we've already hit peak Hariyama, but it still is a great option
B tier:
Loom has finally gotten its due as a scary Sleep + Fighting option. Being able to almost always get a Spore off is a fantastic ability and its triple Fighting set has really been a boon for teams that drop Gengar for more offensive coverage over the last year+. I think you should always run Jolly -- being able to get Spore off against the 244-252 tier is invaluable. I've experimented w bulky Breloom and thought it was pretty mediocre. I think running other Hidden Powers is quite nice -- running Bug to nail Celebi or Ghost to get Gengar is quite nice. It also helps reduce the dependence on Pursuit Tar. I think we will see an adjustment in the meta to help combat Breloom, but I have been enjoying the innovation like w SubPunch and SD Loom.
I think Milo is a bit ass right now. It of course walls Mixed threats forever, and is awesome alongside Celebi or on any team that needs a lot of threats checked in one slot. However, it is really passive and hard to prevent Metagross from Exploding on a key member. I don't think the offensive sets are are really worth it, and Milo really needs Refresh to not be completely helpless to Toxic. I think pairing it besides another Rock resist is pretty mandatory.
I feel like teams relying on Magneton to remove Skarm or Forre can feel hard to justify in the current meta. I personally think the only Mag worth using is one w Magnet and Forre bulk, as not shoring yourself up against those threats is rather painful. Some teams need it to function, but smart play from Skarm or Forre can make your team getting worn down relatively quickly. I do think Mag has some nice utility as a switch in against CB threats w its resistances as well as forcing damage on Bliss teams w Toxic. I suppose rain support or EndSalac are there, but don't feel very good in the current meta. MagDol also feels like a matchup fish at this point
Flygon is another good Rock resist that isn't affected by Spikes -- however, it primary issue is being OHKOed by so many Ice-type moves. I am a fan of the Rest sets, whereas the offensive sets need quite a bit of support, but can feel fantastic w Pursuit Tar and maybe Mag as well due to its high speed and great coverage. I'm not a huge fan of CB, I like the berry options Hclat has experimented w, but can feel easily walled. I think relying on Flygon to pivot Zapdos can be a fool's errand due to HP Ice, but works well on highly offensive teams that use Zapdos or Jolt as their main special wall.
P2 is quite good at its niche of removing Dug and being prob the game's best counter to Salamence. Its also one of the best Para spreaders. It's bulk is deceptive esp not in sand -- tanking things like Molt Flamethrower, Aero, and Starmie. However, I find that unless it is absolutely needed for Dug removal, it is extremely passive and often can be fulfilled with another mon. Even Gardevoir or Salac Dug can do what P2 does wrt to removing opposing Dug. P2 gives momentum to Meta and Lax while also giving Bliss a super free softboiled. It can also lull teams w multiple Ground weaks into a false sense of security by removing Dug, but then being weak to Spikes or generally being weak to Earthquake.
B- tier:
I feel like Venu's viability is really hurt by the prominence of TWave Zap. I also think that other Venus besides Timid max Speed are viable -- Gacusaur (max Calm special bulk w 252 speed) is also quite nice. I think it was Watermess who said Venu fits only on teams that can really use that extra momentum from Sleep + Seed, and I agree -- looking at my Venu teams, the best partners I found were Forre/Skarm spikes or SubPunch and ZapDug. I think it absolutely needs back up in the special wall slot -- I think this mon could definitely use some more innovation.
I am a big fan of Steelix -- being immune to Aero's Rock Slide and being the best Steel type against both Mag and Dug is quite nice. I think teams like the Forre + Steelix and Gyara + Steelix are quite good, as they give the team options to absorb CB Meta without having to risk the Water. However, despite my love for lix, it is very passive -- games against Skarm teams feel like inexorable Stall walls or force the usage of Magneton. I've been experimenting w Boom teams w Steelix, think it is one of the best BLs.
Jynx is one of the best offensive leads in the metagame -- it immediately forces a trap on TTar and Meta while gaining momentum on all leads except like modest CroCune. I've tried the occasional midgame Jynx, but I feel like most Jynx builds have been optimized pretty well -- you're pretty much required to run Dug, but Jynx can just 6-0 some teams w Ice Beam and HP Fire/Psychic and Calm Mind. Jynx's main problem is the brutal accuracy on Lovely Kiss, sleep RNG, and the prominence of Jolly CB Mence leads, but if you're willing to risk that, Jynx is one of the best options for CM Spam archetypes in the current meta.
I have real problems w Cloy in the current meta. It dies so quickly, and w the reemergence of Claydol, Starmie, and Forretress over the last two years has really hurt Cloy's viability. Cloy forces you to run Gengar for this reason, of which teambuilding feel quite restrictive in making sure everything is covered. However, Cloy is the only Spiker that can't be trapped easily, as well as has less variance than the other two HO Spikers, Smeargle and Yoloskarm. Cloy is also quite good at gaining momentum on bulky waters. Cloy's style also is quite prediction dependent to make sure one gets the most out of its Boom and Spikes combination, and as such, can feel quite inconsistent.
Like Cloy, Zard can feel quite inconsistent -- it is arguably the most prediction heavy non Choice Band Mon in the entire metagame. However, getting the Focus Punch on Tar or Bliss can win games, and if the opponent doesn't have Milo or Suicune, the opportunity can arise frequently. Zard also suffers from Heracross syndrome -- missing Fire Blast on Zapdos or Gengar can be soul crushing at times. I think the Sunny Day Blast Burn set is fun, as well as Beat Up (with or without the gimmicky Fire Spin to trap Bliss). If the meta goes more offensive, definitely looking forward to more Zard.
Again, another very inconsistent mon. I find Jolt Spikes to be very hard to use, as I constantly feel I am one Suicune Hydro Pump or Molt Flamethrower away from losing the game. However, it is undeniable these teams have found success on ladder and in the past. My take on it is to run more bulk -- I've used 144 HP and 8 Sp Def to Tank Suicune's +1 Hydro Pump while running enough speed for Dugtrio. Think Wish is a nice option -- run it alongside things that can take care of Bliss and Spikes.
Medicham is one of the scariest Fighters in the game. Nothing walls Medicham outside of Super Fat ProTox WishMence or maybe Weezing. I think Medi's bulk is rather underrated, as even w a small amount of investment it can live DDTar Eq and Jolly Dug Eq. I think CB is rather bad on Medi despite the insane power -- lefties or even Black Belt or Lum (lures Gengar like a charm) allows you to switch moves and 480 Attack does quite a bit of damage. I think we've seen some nice Medi builds in the metagame, although I think the hype has died down a bit. One of my favorite tools on my bulkier teams
I really struggled where to put Gyarados -- I think it has some good sets like TWave, Taunt HP Rock (pairing it w Knock Off for Skarm is amazing), HP Ghost Gyara, etc. But it is so unbelievably weak even at +1 and is hard countered by Zapdos. Even on SD Pass at +3, Gyara stills struggles to get kills. Teams that it should ravage can typically tank a hit and boom on it or hit it w like TTar Rock Slide. It also almost 100% requires Magneton to function. However, if teams are lacking options for it, it can be quite devastating. I think Rest DD bulky Gyara is pretty bad right now, but I would love to be wrong.
C+ Tier:
Despite recently dropping to BL, Ice man can be effective w the right support. It is great as a back up special wall and likes Dug support for its pathetically weak Explosion to get the trap on Bliss. It does a good job spreading Twave and hitting things hard w Ice Beam. Being weak to TTar and Meta really shafts its viability, however.
Smeargle is main HO Spiker in the metagame (I think it is a lot better than Yoloskarm). Infinite options and access to Spore help teams built around Rock spam + Agiligross function. I think previous iterations of the metagame w BP allowed on it were a lot more favorable for it, but it's got a decent Speed tier and just enough bulk to tank hits and activate that Salac to get off a STAB Boom, Spikes, or really whatever it wants.
I think Armaldo has a lot of unexplored territory both w other options and in teams. Knock Off is always excellent and it has a great offensive typing. It of course is the best Snorlax counter in the game w Harden, but it also can use HP Bug to OHKO offensive Celebi while being deceptively bulky. The mons that hurt its viability are not as good, with the exception of Metagross. Be on the lookout for it
Kingdra Rain can be quite good if built around it. Think it is a great receiver for CM Pass Celebi. Like Sub on it, as well as HP Grass to not have to risk HPump's horrible accuracy. While Kingdra's bulky, it can be hard to justify letting the cleaner take a big hit to revenge like a DDTar for example. Think Kingdra isn't as viable as it used to be, but still can be effective.
I love Raikou, but I think the hype behind Lead Toxic has worn off and we're left w all the normal Raikou problems. Sub CM can sweep w the best of them if it receives a CM Pass from Celebi, and the rogue CMRest can be quite nice w support. Still think it is quite effective in the right match up, however.
Blaziken hype has definitely worn off from last SPL -- it still is a Big 5 killer that can quite some damage behind a Sub. An underrated option that Asta showed me was max attack Focus Punch -- being able to 2HKO Milo behind a sub is quite impressive. Think it really didn't like Zapdos running a lot of bulk as the standard, but it still can be effective in the right match up against standard TSS.
I used to be a big Weezing fan, but I now find it pretty hard to build with. I liked it on Boom offense w Naughty HP Fighting, Fire Blast, and Wow, but it can feel difficult to use. I found Gar to just work better in the slot I used Weezing unless I really needed help against Drill Peck Skarm. I think Taunt can still be effective, and it of course has a much stronger boom and physical bulk than Gengar.
Donphan needs so much support to be usable -- pursuit trapper for Gar, Magneton, special wall, etc. But it is the best DDTar counter in the game (besides Groudon lol) and can be quite effective against Aero Spikes teams. Don't think the metagame has really affected it all that much -- might see a comeback if CurseLax sees a resurgence.
Umbreon pretty much only fits if you want a Pursuiter that doesn't bring sand or you want to use a physical ttar. It is quite good at its niche -- it pretty guarantees Gengar's removal next time it comes in if you switch into WoW and it hits if you're smart and invest in SpA. I find my Umbreon teams typically can struggle against the classic Gar + OffStar combo if I don't run a Heal Beller. You can also be cheeky and run Vapicuno's Mean Look pass too, be on the lookout for that.
That other Pursuiter. Like Umbreon, run Houndoom if you want to run a physical Tar or don't want sand. However, unlike Umbreon, Houndoom fulfills almost no defensive niche, so it is more restrictive in terms of team building. On the other hand, Houndoom's Pursuit is much stronger than both Umbreon and Ttar's, so it can actually remove SpDef Gar instead of chipping it w a good roll. I think there are some under-explored options on Doom like Beat Up, but it feels so restrictive to build w you might not ever see those options.
Registeel is infuriating to play against -- it never dies and has Counter if you try to use physical moves on it then Rests off the damage while spreading Paralysis. It pretty much only fits on hyper stall teams w Forretress, but its defensive utility is undeniable. I've seen curse + boom sets, but I've had a hard time fitting them, although definitely theorymonned them as a back up special wall if curse + boom lax dies.
Like Hclat, I also see Scizor as more of a Fighting mon than as a Bug mon. It can definitely match up fish for someone who doesn't know what's up w the EndSalac Reversal. I also think it can be a decent CB mon w Baton Pass acting like U-Turn for Mag to switch in. I think the SD passer can have some viability on hyper offense. At the same time, I don't think it is consistent at all and that HP Bug is doing very little damage otherwise.
C Tier:
Cross Chop accuracy makes me hate this mon. I swear its like 60% accurate and misses at the worst possible times. I think it's only really viable as either Bulk Up or CB. I liked Linear's teams w it -- it is enormously powerful if you can predict well as well as being deceptively bulky with investment. If only No Guard was in Adv...
The fish! I think Lanturn has become underrated after it was overrated over the summer. I'm not a huge fan, but it can be effective in the right circumstances. I typically just set up on it w Suicune or just kind of ignore its coverage, but it is absolutely a great Starmie counter and Volt Absorb is quite helpful. It is good when you don't want to be so passive against special threats.
Marowak is prob the best Speed pass recipient in ADV -- almost every good adv player has been swept by this getting Speed passed from Ninjask or Zapdos on the ladder. It also fits on some defensive teams as a breaker w Para support. Can live some weak attacks, but this thing took a hit to its viability once Mime got banned.
I think Eggy is the most underrated mon in ADV. Sleep + Boom is always a good combo, and it has a good movepool with options like Wish and of course the standard Psy / Grass / Fire coverage. Eggy really made me appreciate how good Celebi's stats are, because even to live Dug's HP Bug, you need insane investment. It is prob best to run speed for base 70 creep, enough bulk for Swampert ice beam, and then put the rest in SpA. Can be a good option for some Spikeless offenses.
Linear showed us all how effective Jumpluff Spikes can be after I think UD theorymonned this Poke. Still think it only really fits on very specific teams, but in that niche (preventing set up w Encore, Sleep, SubSeed) it is bar none the best at it.
Demon bug! I think Ninjask is probably going to eventually get banned, but it is undeniably the best Dugtrio punisher in the game and definitely the best Speed passer. I can't tell how many times I raged at this thing when I lost my Sand Veil (RIP Cacturne and Gligar in these rankings) req accounts to teams w this thing. Maybe the Mime banning will finally be what's needed for this thing not to be awful?
Dusclops is so bad. I have tried to make this thing work in modern ADV, but it is just so uniquely bad, I don't know how to justify running this over Gengar or even alongside it if you Destiny Bond the Tar. I think the Snatch Wow Thief set is pretty cool, as is the attack invested set w Shadow Ball Wow Pain Split and Focus Punch. But its so unbelievably slow and weak -- I guess that Sean B guy annoys me w it whenever I play him on ladder.
Good ole Zammer. Zam has an awesome movepool, a great Speed tier, and SpA stat. It can be quite effective w four attacks, Knock off, or a Calm Mind. So what gives? It just has no defensive niche whatsoever. It has to risk the speed tie w Dug. I have seen it work on some Jolt Spikes and as a kinda pseudo suicide lead for Dug, but Jynx or Raikou just do that way better. If it had Magic Guard and Focus Sash, I could see it be amazing like in BW, but it instead sucks in ADV.
Gardevoir can actually be kind of effective -- it is a much more offensive Dug trapper w Trace and can be annoying w Taunt, Salac, and Destiny Bond. Pokology stalled the shit out of me w a ProTox Wish specially defensive Gardevoir. It is pretty decent option that prob needs some more exploring.
I swear every time I try to make Ludicolo work as a rain sweeper or as a bulky leech seed attacker, it disappoints me. I just find it to be too weak or too frail to do anything of note. I know some people love it, but count me out.
Camel! I'll repeat what I said in the earlier thread -- a Ground-type that can't counter TTar and is immediately removed by ZapDug is rather hard to build around. It is quite nice that it is a great counter to Defensive Zap and Gengar. It also has Explosion and good offensive stats. But it is so unbelievably slowwwwwwwwww. Previous iterations of the metagame were kinder to it.
Everything else really isn't worth using (like Slaking or Rhydon) or I haven't really experimented w it enough to comment (like Miltank, Dragonite, Solrock, or Politoed). Seen them on ladder, though.
Thanks for reading!
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