This thread is pursuant to the ADV Sand Veil thread in Policy Review. Please post here if you cannot post in PR and do not want to proxy post. The ADV Council will be monitoring both threads.
I 1000% agree with this. My entire point with the Brightpowder thing was that arguments about “consistency” and “on principle” are nonsense. Everything in mons should be on a case by case basis.the summary of all of the above is this: items, abilities and moves are different and it is valid to evaluate them differently even if they have similar effects. it is a valid position to be in favor of banning sand veil but not brightpowder.
I agree with this, SV+Sub is what gives multiple luck based chances for BS to the point it is statistically relevant; Gligar with Leftovers can set up 5-6 Subs (depending on the EV's and misses) + still can avoid 1 miss raw and steamroll slower teams or 1v1 as last mon like here so phazer is not an option.Finally, I think the best way to go is to make a complex-ban: Substitute + Sand Veil on the same Pokémon. If we do that, Cacturne, Gligar and etc. will stay in their tiers instead of being in Ubers where they cant be used. Theses Pokémons will still being usable but the bullshit will be nerfed a lot, that means that cacturne, for example can still be a rarely-used spiker instead of being a Luck Abuser.
Pokemon metagames evolve to deal with popular strategies by definition. Apparently this strategy only just became popular. I don't think it can be said with any certainty how the metagame might change to deal with this if it becomes a dominant strategy.
Not that I am pro-ban or anti-ban, but I am hesitant to agree with these arguments, both on principle and on the practicalities.I wonder how many people are willing/trying to do anything to combat it? These teams don't have great matchups across the board. If you reset the weather, you're just playing against 1-2 non-ou mons, Tyranitar and Magneton.... often a worse version of some other SkarMag TSS or MagDol cores. Weather reset is already a good option against other forms of TSS. MagDol obviously preys on more passive & spikes reliant teams. You're playing against at least 3 Duggy weak Pokemon when you run into these teams, too. Both trapper + weather reset and straightforward rain teams are quite viable and perhaps somewhat underplayed in ADV OU. On a smaller builder decision making scale, maybe you should run Flamethrower over that Fire Blast? Maybe you should consider trying Ice Beam Claydol like your granny used to run?
This argument is rather flawed in my opinion. Salemence, nor any Pokemon that decides to run a never miss move such should definitely not have to weaken its overall power just to avoid missing(this reminds me of that whole “use Wide Lens Slowbro lol” argument that people apparently used to say years ago lol). The overall power decrease from Hidden Power Flying onto Aerial Ace is also huge, especially for Choice Band Mence. Also, Aerial Ace definitely doesn’t solve the idea that Sand Veil as whole is uncompetitiveWhy don't we all just start running Aerial Ace to deal with this? Or more generally, swift? These are ostensibly the same arguments as saying we should run weather disruption to handle sand veil abusers... I mean, theoretically I guess you could get away with it with Aerial Ace on mence since you wouldn't be forfeiting too much power.
I'm being facetious of course (mostly, I might actually start running AA on Salamence because of how prevalent SV on ladder right now), but IMO as a more casual ADV player sand veil is probably the least satisfying bs to play against. Even something like BP (or mean look BP) is really frustrating to play against, but at the very least you can bring a team that is prepared to deal with it without completely forfeiting/adjusting the integrity of your team. As sheaf mentioned above, we can deal with a miss at a crucial time because ultimately it means that at some point during building you decided to sacrifice accuracy for power and, to that end, it can win you games you'd otherwise lose.
Besides, a big part of Pokemon and what makes competitive battling enjoyable, at least for me, is how momentum works and how you really can build offensive momentum by playing strategically and learning how your opponent will play certain situations. SV completely nullifies these concepts in a unique way - you can predict and counter-play as much as you want but if Cacturne comes in on mence but then HP flying just misses several times.. well, all your momentum is out the window and your opponent is rewarded for actually making a bad play. Anything that provides free or unchecked momentum is really a poor addition to any metagame. That said, from the looks of it SV won't be sticking around for too much longer anyway but just my two cents.
I know lol, that's my point ("I'm being facetious, of course"). I'm saying that it's in the same vein as "just use a weather move" to stop sand veil. I shouldn't have to adjust the integrity of my team because all my 100% accurate attacks might randomly miss. It's not like lead TTar is niche either...This argument is rather flawed in my opinion. Salemence, nor any Pokemon that decides to run a never miss move such should definitely not have to weaken its overall power just to avoid missing(this reminds me of that whole “use Wide Lens Slowbro lol” argument that people apparently used to say years ago lol). The overall power decrease from Hidden Power Flying onto Aerial Ace is also huge, especially for Choice Band Mence. Also, Aerial Ace definitely doesn’t solve the idea that Sand Veil as whole is uncompetitive