OU ADV OU Viability Ranking

i feel blissey is a top 2 pokemon and low-key warps the metagame around it. it invalidates most special attackers and forces teams into using multiple high-attack pokemon. perhaps we are using metagross/tyranitar not so much because they are individually good, but because the presence of blissey forces us into using them. sorry if this is obvious, but i get a lot of grief for running blissey on my teams.
 
i feel blissey is a top 2 pokemon and low-key warps the metagame around it. it invalidates most special attackers and forces teams into using multiple high-attack pokemon. perhaps we are using metagross/tyranitar not so much because they are individually good, but because the presence of blissey forces us into using them. sorry if this is obvious, but i get a lot of grief for running blissey on my teams.
Alright, take everything I say with a grain of salt because I am not that good.
I would not put blissey that high, even though I definitely agree about its impact on the metagame. It does completely invalidate stuff like raikou, but for that reason raikou just doesn't really exist anymore. It is a wonderful zapdos/moltres/other relevant special attacker switchin, but the reason those are good is is that they can do something even when the opponent has blissey.

TL;DR special attackers don't exist because blissey killed them all, so now blissey doesn't have anything to eat anymore

Sorry if that doesn't make sense, it probably doesn't
 

vapicuno

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Alright, take everything I say with a grain of salt because I am not that good.
I would not put blissey that high, even though I definitely agree about its impact on the metagame. It does completely invalidate stuff like raikou, but for that reason raikou just doesn't really exist anymore. It is a wonderful zapdos/moltres/other relevant special attacker switchin, but the reason those are good is is that they can do something even when the opponent has blissey.

TL;DR special attackers don't exist because blissey killed them all, so now blissey doesn't have anything to eat anymore

Sorry if that doesn't make sense, it probably doesn't
I feel that you are focusing more on the special walling side of things while not considering what Blissey can do to its switchins to make progress.
Zapdos and Moltres can't really do anything to Blissey and I think while it does get shuffled around by Spikes, having anything else take them on is probably even worse. Zapdos does gain momentum on Blissey by baiting it to Baton Pass/double switch out to something like Metagross, Tyranitar, or Heracross, but there are things Blissey can do to mitigate the risk. Wish is a safe move that can be used regardless of whether Zapdos stays in or switches out, and then if a physical threat comes in it's almost as if you got a free pivot out to something that can maintain the momentum. In some situations Blissey can also fire off Counter. There's also UD's lure Blissey which can really hurt Tyranitar or Metagross coming in either with Toxic or Fire Blast. I think the idea that Blissey has ways to make progress against all its switchins is quite amazing.
 
I feel that you are focusing more on the special walling side of things while not considering what Blissey can do to its switchins to make progress.
Zapdos and Moltres can't really do anything to Blissey and I think while it does get shuffled around by Spikes, having anything else take them on is probably even worse. Zapdos does gain momentum on Blissey by baiting it to Baton Pass/double switch out to something like Metagross, Tyranitar, or Heracross, but there are things Blissey can do to mitigate the risk. Wish is a safe move that can be used regardless of whether Zapdos stays in or switches out, and then if a physical threat comes in it's almost as if you got a free pivot out to something that can maintain the momentum. In some situations Blissey can also fire off Counter. There's also UD's lure Blissey which can really hurt Tyranitar or Metagross coming in either with Toxic or Fire Blast. I think the idea that Blissey has ways to make progress against all its switchins is quite amazing.
This is something that I think works better in theory than in practice, but I do think that Blissey can definitely put in some work making offensive progress. The reason I don't think that this is always going to work out is the fact that Blissey is spikes-weak and how often it needs to come in and out every game. If your opponent has multiple layers of spikes up and you bring in your Blissey on whatever special attacker (because obviously Blissey will not be switching into physical attacks, hopefully) your Blissey can take upwards of 40-50% that turn, so even if you know that your opponent is going Metagross or Heracross or whatever you want to hit with a fire blast you are forced to heal anyway because Blissey is getting forced out no matter what and if it is at 60% it isn't coming in on zapdos with spikes up anymore, and on the teams that carry a Blissey it is very likely that nothing else is either. Obviously, this is a very bad scenario for Blissey to be in and we shouldn't just look at the worst thing to rank Blissey, but this is a pretty common interaction to have, at least in my experience. This can obviously be negated by spinning hazards off or preventing them from going up, but sometimes that can't or won't happen, and it is really hard to switch into the stuff that forces Blissey out, like CB Gross, Hera, or Breloom.
This is not to say that I think Blissey isn't good, because it is, but I just think it fills fewer roles (it is a very important role though) than something like Metagross or Zapdos or Salamence and should probably be ranked lower than they are.
Also, max attack drill peck zapdos is really good and 2hkos Blissey after spikes, while thunderbolt still hits stuff like Metagross and TTar hard.
 
on the issue of distance between tiers i have a question. apologies if it is an ignorant one. are the gaps between viability tiers supposed to be constant, or, for example, could the gap between s and a1 be greater than the gap from a1 to f?
 
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vapicuno

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Good question. I don't know the complete answer, so I'll tell you what I know.

VR's are ordinal data. That means relative distances between Pokemon are ignored. Only their relative positions are kept.

Let me give an example. If we wanted to talk about the gap in usage rate, it would be easier. A pokemon in X in S with 80% usage vs pokemon Y in A1 with 50% in usage is going to be a bigger gap than X with 70% and Y with 60%. We can even assume a bernoulli distribution and calculate the standard deviation in the usage rate p as sqrt(p(1-p)/n) and n is the number of battles sampled over, and form the tiers, calculate the t score assuming a normal distribution in a large sample size limit, and get the statistical significance from which you could then define the "distance" between tiers.

But by ranking 1. Tyranitar, 2. Metagross, there is no way to talk about the difference in quality of the Pokemon. It could translate to 90% vs 10% usage, or 60% vs 40%. So there is definitely a very clear distinction there.

Then you might ask me, what does it mean for a tier to be very clearly demarcated by non-overlapping error bars, if there is this ambiguity in the first place? I'll give you two scenarios wherein there is a difference in one but not the other. Assume a metagame that only two players play. Let's also assume winrates are equal so viability is effectively equal to usage rate.

Scenario 1: both players have a usage rate of Tyranitar 60%, Metagross 40%. Clearly Tyranitar is in a separate tier from Metagross.
Scenario 2: player 1 uses Tyranitar 100%, Metagross 0%. Player 2 uses Tyranitar 20%, Metagross 80%. Their combined usage rates are Tyranitar 60%, Metagross 40%. By my ordinal method we would simply see both players disagreeing on their relative positions, and therefore Metagross and Tyranitar belong to the same tier.

Equal average usage, different tiering. This happens because ordinal data only captures relative positions. This overlapping of error bars thing is more about the disagreements that people have than a reflection of true viability, which I suspect to be combination of usage and winrate conditional upon some range of skill level.

At the end of the day, how does all this tiering inform us? I think it's about capturing all that subjectivity and presenting it in a way humans understand, so that in a human way it informs our teambuilding, execute our strategies, mitigate our opponents' strategies, and make inferences on their teambuilding. Things that we unanimously agree on as good inform our priorities as threats to keep or to take out. This has an advantage over objective data. SPL XI had an amazingly high Magneton winrate and usage rate. But that shouldn't translate to "I should prioritize taking out Magneton". Rather, it should be the threat that Magneton supports that deserve thinking about, and I believe those are more accurately captured by the subjective VRs.

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Tyranitar          |   67 |  69.79% |  49.25% |
| 2    | Swampert           |   48 |  50.00% |  39.58% |
| 3    | Skarmory           |   41 |  42.71% |  46.34% |
| 4    | Blissey            |   39 |  40.62% |  53.85% |
| 5    | Metagross          |   34 |  35.42% |  47.06% |
| 6    | Zapdos             |   31 |  32.29% |  51.61% |
| 7    | Celebi             |   27 |  28.12% |  51.85% |
| 8    | Salamence          |   26 |  27.08% |  57.69% |
| 8    | Magneton           |   26 |  27.08% |  53.85% |
| 10   | Dugtrio            |   25 |  26.04% |  52.00% |
| 10   | Gengar             |   25 |  26.04% |  32.00% |
| 12   | Claydol            |   19 |  19.79% |  63.16% |
| 12   | Suicune            |   19 |  19.79% |  57.89% |
| 14   | Jirachi            |   18 |  18.75% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Snorlax            |   17 |  17.71% |  52.94% |
| 16   | Starmie            |   14 |  14.58% |  28.57% |
| 17   | Milotic            |   10 |  10.42% |  70.00% |
| 17   | Jolteon            |   10 |  10.42% |  40.00% |
| 17   | Moltres            |   10 |  10.42% |  30.00% |
| 20   | Aerodactyl         |    9 |   9.38% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Forretress         |    6 |   6.25% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Cloyster           |    6 |   6.25% |  33.33% |
| 23   | Breloom            |    5 |   5.21% |  60.00% |
| 24   | Venusaur           |    4 |   4.17% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Porygon2           |    4 |   4.17% |  25.00% |
| 26   | Gyarados           |    3 |   3.12% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Heracross          |    3 |   3.12% |  33.33% |
| 28   | Dragonite          |    2 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Umbreon            |    2 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Charizard          |    2 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Hariyama           |    2 |   2.08% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Flygon             |    2 |   2.08% |  50.00% |

-------- Some fun ideas -----------

Speaking of subjectivity, as part of a fun and perhaps informative idea, I think it would be interesting at some point to try out having two VR lists instead: a "teambuilding VR" and a "threat list VR", with the former being what you would prefer to use in your team, and the latter being what you prefer not to face. I don't know how honest people can be with this given that it's revealing your cards, but I suspect they are going to be a lot more informative than lumping them together into one single list. For example, a safe player might prefer defensive Pokemon in the builder that favor long games, while really hating on prediction-based Pokemon like Choice Banders in the "threat list". Let me know what you think.
 
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hm i think "prefer not to face" is just too subjective depending on team. a better alternative might be "rate the pressure you feel against this pokemon"

not that many bs threats in adv. heracross, medicham, and bp mainly. "preferring not to face" cb meta seems kind of ridic because you should be prepared for it
 
I think you can argue though that there are certain pokemon that you almost always have to think about from the builder and that this doesn't necessarily correlate directly with viability. Aerodactyl being a good example of this. In terms of its actual viability it's somewhat in the middle of the pack but it's one of the first things I think about when trying to ensure defensive integrity on my teams because if you don't have an answer to it there's just not really any way to play your way out. Compare this to something like suicune who you can often beat even without a reliable counter just by not giving your opponent the chance to set it up. Would be kind of interesting to see these lists separated out.
 
i have to get some salt off my chest, the trash talking is out of control on pokemon showdown. usually its new players who are frustrated by something, but i'm even getting spam from vets who don't like losing to low tier monsters or hax. it's really soured me.
 
:Blaziken:
(that worked, nice)

I think that Blaziken is a very usable mon in advance, and should definitely be ranked higher than Camerupt.
Ok, sorry, but all fun aside (this is competitive pokemon after all), I think Blaziken is probably a little better than Charizard in most scenarios. It works well as a lead, putting aside that its best counter is the 3rd most common lead and suicune is not too far behind, as it annihilates tyranitar with its fighting STAB and fire blast generally kills bulkless zapdos from Blaze range (97.5% min). It certainly should not stay in on salamence or any of the less common leads, aside from metagross and maybe jolteon as well.
I think Blaziken should run hp grass over ice, unless the team has a much easier time dealing with swampert than salamence, and personally, I find that swampert is a lot harder to wear down. On top of that, salamence can still force out an hp ice blaziken, but swampert cannot force out an hp grass one unless it is pretty near full and defensive, and as defensive pert is going to be necessary to switch in on all kinds of physical attacks that is not too common a scenario.

I have been running this set:

Blaziken @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 36 Atk / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Rash Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Sky Uppercut
- Toxic

And it has been working out really well. The "standard" last move here is thunder punch, but the only mons that thunder punch are really useful against are moltres and charizard, and those two cannot really hit blaziken that hard anyway. Toxic is there for salamence that wants to switch in. I am never that zealous about predicting a mence switch, as it doesn't exactly take fire blasts all that well, but salamence is a lot less threatening when it is on that much of a timer. Missing thunder punch sucks a bit against starmie and in some scenaria against milotic and suicune as well, but aside from starmie it isn't hitting them that hard, so if the team can deal with switching in on waters then it should be fine (and if a team cannot switch in on waters then changing a move on Blaziken is not going to make it that much better).

Blaziken gets a lot of flak for having a bad speed tier, and that is really the only thing I can see charizard having over it, aside from a spikes immunity. But, going through the tier, the only difference between Blaziken's 250-range speed and Charizard's 299 or 328 is:
Heracross
Offensive Suicune
Celebi
Jirachi, I have run 270 speed rachi and it is alright but I think the 328 speed sets are better
Gyarados, sometimes
Moltres
and +speed base 70s (salacgross, the occasional magneton, some YOLOskarm I guess).

CB Hera's brick break (when it runs that) is a roll to ohko Blaziken, but not one a sane man goes for. Zard should never stay in on suicune or gyarados of any sort at risk of being setup fodder. Moltres, zard, and Blaziken cannot really damage each other. And the +speed base 70s, outside of magneton (which comes short of an ohko anyway) are uncommon at best. The only real problem there is celebi and I guess the occasional jirachi. In return, Blaziken can threaten out tyranitar with no sub, live a hit from electrics, and in general hit everything harder with no setup turn. There are teams that zard is going to do better than Blaziken on, but I think they are pretty limited in number. It definitely requires a team that has solid defensive synergy already, as it provides next to nothing in that regard, but its ability to survive one neutral or resisted hit in a pinch can really come in handy.

TL;DR:
Blaziken's speed is actually pretty good and its defenses are better than dugtrio's. It hits fucking hard. Use it.
 

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You're right in the sense that Blaziken is a good offensive mon. It lays the hurt on some TSS, popular one at that and is a good early breaker as a result. You're overselling it and saying it's better than Charizard in most case just ain't right. You're ignoring that Charizard has a much better defensive typing. It allows it to pivot into popular Pokemons much better as a result. EQ immunity and not being weak to Psychic comes in clutch in a lot of situations. Not to mention the Spikes immunity to avoid being worn down altogether. The Speed tier is also very important, it isn't limited to the Pokemons you mentionned but also everything in the 100 Base Stat range, either to play ties or straight up outspeed the people going for +Atk/SpA nature (Bulky Gengar too), not to mention HP Fire Celebi.

For these reasons, I still believe that Blaziken is more comparable to Fighting mons than the Fire mons (Zard/Moltres pretty much) of the tier, as I had highlighted in my VR. Lackluster speed, not really useful typing defensively but great wallbreaking potential. It's better against standard TSS than the pure Fighters because of its ability to threaten Skarmory/Gengar/Celebi with its stab whereas it'll fall flat against Milotic teams.
 
Charizard's ground immunity and lack of a psychic weakness does make it better at switching in, but its rock and electric weaknesses and its reliance on focus punch as a fighting move make it a lot easier to force out. Using Charizard means that you have to click the right move every time it comes in, or else it just doesn't accomplish anything. And if you run sub over dragon claw, to make prediction unnecessary, you're completely walled by salamence in addition to the waters that already walled you. Blaziken can switch in safely against what might be the most difficult mon in the tier, mixed tyranitar (which in my experience almost never runs earthquake) and safely force it out. But even against a mon like skarmory, which both Blaziken and Charizard scare out, Blaziken can safely always go for a fire blast, whereas if Charizard does so against an incoming Blissey or Tyranitar then it just wasted its opportunity and let a spike go up for free. If you're looking for durability, well, neither of these mons have very much of it, and it comes into play in different scenaria, but neither of them should really be switching into attacks. Charizard's ground immunity can come in handy against choice-locked targets, though, I'll definitely give you that.
 

vapicuno

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Siglut I think your points are valid that blaziken eases the prediction against skarmory a little bit and doesn't waste a moveslot to reduce the unreliability of focus punch.

I think for me what charizard has going for it is the ability to pivot effortlessly into metagross and gengar. Switching into metagross twice for free is not something most offensive pokemon can do. Gengars tbolt also brings charizard reliably into blaze range, whereas with blaziken there is an awkward situation where tbolt brings it down after some spikes but not quite down if you get what I mean.
There are teams that zard is going to do better than Blaziken on, but I think they are pretty limited in number. It definitely requires a team that has solid defensive synergy already, as it provides next to nothing in that regard,
So I completely disagree with this because as you mentioned, zard has one time defensive utility but that is sometimes all that offensive teams need. Gengar and metagross are not easy mons to pivot into for offensive teams, but offensive teams also dont need to take that many hits from them too. As for the inability to handle tar, i tend to like using Dugtrio with zard.

I also think the importance of having ground immunes on offense teams is understated. Many offensive teams are completely wrecked by Dugtrio, so having something like zard that can sub up on a dugtrio ko and unleash something devastating is quite important. On the other hand, blaziken is dug weak, so then you might have to support it with other dug lures or abusers. By using zard over ken, you turn a dug weak into a dug abuse.

The zard set that I prefer (mainly because i like spikeless offense) is the sub petaya set. That alleviates some of the problems you mentioned. Under sand, a fire blast to mence and an additional blaze petaya boosted one one will take it out. I think you understate the importance of being faster than most Salamence. The blaze petaya boost also lets you take out Blissey after a well-timed focus punch.

On the topic of speed, I think it cannot be overstated that there are some really important things that charizard can potentially outspeed. Slow taunt Gengar, Salamence as mentioned above, speed tie with Zapdos are some things you didn't mention. But outspeeding Moltres, Celebi and Jirachi are so important.

Charizard is favored to beat Moltres in a 1v1 and can even take it down with a bit of chip while switching in because of Blaze. Every bit of speed and spikes immunity matters then. Offensive teams dont have good moltres switchins otherwise, and you can end up getting forced into this situation.

Celebi and Jirachi are not just two random Pokemon zard outspeeds. They are very prevalent, and calm mind variants are very dangerous. In addition to outspeeding (most), Charizard also doesnt get 1hkoed and can make use of blaze. That means using zard instead of blaziken, you turn a weakness into a check. You can pressure celebi before it baton passes out so that it can never set up on you again, and you prevent jirachi from running over your team. Without charizard, you might have had to resort to other measures like exploding (ok you exploded the target, but celebi's still there), trading your tyranitar or metagross (but all superrachi teams are designed to have already gotten those two out of the way, or intentionally use jirachi to get rid pr them, so you might have lost them already!), or using Roar zapdos which will temporarily stop them in return for taking a huge chunk of damage.

The most recent successful team I have seen blaziken on is z0mog's blaziken breloom ttar team. If I remember correctly, tyranitar is pursuit so that helps to lure dugtrio for the breloom kill through mach punch. Blaziken needs quite a lot of support to make it work, and it's not easy to divide the matchup into dug and non dug, because dug belongs on both defensive and offensive, spikeless and spikes teams. The number of S/A ranked mons that blaziken can switch in on safely too especially under spikes is essentially one - skarmory. It needs to pivot carefully into blissey lest it gets twaved too.

Charizard in comparison switches freely into Metagross, Gengar, Jirachi, Celebi (and Dugtrio if you consider that) on top of Skarmory among the A ranked mons at least once, and it knows it will not get KOed. It also knows that if it gets into blaze range, it can make good use of its speed to make the best use of its ability, outrunning mence and perhaps some zapdos. It does not need as much support. In fact, it supports with its offensive pivoting. The strong blaze fire blast can even be preserved under Spikes, unlike Blaziken. It can play the matchup dividing game too - the stuff that truly hard walls Charizard is of a particular type of passive stall team (milotic, defensive starmie) that the rest of the team can be tailored to beat. Thats a lot more niche and checkable than straight up losing to Dugtrio. Porygon2 and dug countertrap strategies do exist but thats exactly not what versatility is about (and it's hard! There are going to be defensive holes no matter what if you take this p2/dug route, from what I have explored). The most reliable strategy that a friend and I have found with blaziken was to use it with spikes stack to exploit its switch forcing and so that dug traps are frequently momentum-losing. That has some avenue for exploration I think.

Perhaps you can share some viable teams that use blaziken? I will be interested to take a look at them.

Cheers!
 
I think for me what charizard has going for it is the ability to pivot effortlessly into metagross and gengar. Switching into metagross twice for free is not something most offensive pokemon can do. Gengars tbolt also brings charizard reliably into blaze range, whereas with blaziken there is an awkward situation where tbolt brings it down after some spikes but not quite down if you get what I mean.

Siglut said:
There are teams that zard is going to do better than Blaziken on, but I think they are pretty limited in number. It definitely requires a team that has solid defensive synergy already, as it provides next to nothing in that regard,

So I completely disagree with this because as you mentioned, zard has one time defensive utility but that is sometimes all that offensive teams need. Gengar and metagross are not easy mons to pivot into for offensive teams, but offensive teams also dont need to take that many hits from them too. As for the inability to handle tar, i tend to like using Dugtrio with zard.
In hindsight, my phrasing here is bad. What I am trying to say is that Blaziken does not provide any defensive support to its team, and that it needs to have something else that does that for it (which does, now that I think about it, undermine the claim that Blaziken fits on more teams than Charizard).
I am not going to argue that Charizard does more defensively than Blaziken can, however, one nitpick I am going to make with your argument is that I do not think Charizard is a good way to pivot in on Gengar at all. Even against mild zard, ice punch into thunderbolt guarantees a ko in sand, and against rash (which I imagine is more common) sand is not necessary. (calced with 128 Spatk gar, which is what I run on my favorite set). Blaziken takes less from every move gengar carries aside from hpgrass/giga drain, which neither of them take anything from.

Your points about Celebi and Jirachi are both good, and now that I think about it I have no idea how the last Blaziken team I made has dealt with them, but I know it has.

Anyway, you asked me to share a team, so here it is: https://pokepast.es/79d9d882df9f4e40
I'm not going to write up an RMT or anything, but the idea of this team is that Blaziken and Breloom put in a ton of work against slow, fatter teams, and the rest of the team does well against offense (which is very much oversimplified, but the team is not exactly hard to use).
And yeah, this does look a lot like the charizard/breloom team that undisputed made. I was probably thinking about that in my subconscious when I built this team.
 
after an absence spent in the fair-weather isles of sun/moon underused, i recently, to my own surprise, found myself back on the adv ou ladder, accompanied by venusaur and his lackeys. perhaps time apart would make the heart grow fonder? honestly, i don't think it did. the adv ladder can be frustrating at the best of times, i think; but, in my experience, laddering with venusaur can be particularly testing. given the inaccuracy of sleep powder, the move by which venusaur seems to live or die, consistency can be hard to come by; and on the adv ou ladder there rapidly comes a point where more than a couple of victories are offset by a single loss, and in any given game i am suspicious of venusaur. perhaps the first to one format is not so kind to venusaur? and maybe venusaur would shine brighter under a different light? bo3, 5, 7, 11..., perhaps: that the viability of some strategies, and thus the pokemon by which those strategies are manifest, might depend on the terms of competition?
when ranking the viability of pokemon are we only to consider their effectiveness in a single game in a vacuum? if not, i might nominate venusaur for a raise in a subsequent post. also, thank you vapicuno for the response to my previous question. i thought your answer was very informative.
 
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this is what i think, any time i do an elo run of 1600+ it's always with the same 7 or 8 monsters. You can slip in 1 or 2 lower ranked monsters and get away with it if they compliment your team, matchup well with a problematic pokemon, or provide some sort of support in the form of roar or wish or whatever. im convinced the meta is not that wide open.

right now im toying around with a steelix/manitine team. it's a cool team, but manitine's weakness to rockslide is a big problem. oh, and i narrowly avoided getting shredded by a good wailord team. i'm particulary fond of tyranitar and claydol so it presented a real problem.
 
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Dropping some cool sets that have been working well for me lately


Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 112 Atk / 196 SpA / 200 Spe or 92 HP / 100 Def / 124 SpA / 192 Spe
Hasty Nature or Naive Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Explosion
- Focus Punch

Kids these days see gengar and throw in their pursuit tyranitar so readily that this has become my go-to gengar set. Focus punch is underrated, and the surge of pursuit tyranitars makes this thing absolute cash. Monster with spikes support as well, as you can cripple other common switch in like lax, regice, blissey etc. Blissey are also prone to stay in and try win the ice-beam / softboiled 50-50, which means you can just boom on them and open up a sweep with for the goons in the back like kingdra.




Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 80 HP / 200 Atk / 44 Def / 172 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Block
- Brick Break
- Shadow Ball
- Self-Destruct

This guy is dope - use him on my heracross + restcune team. Lures in and kills tyranitar or gengar. Heracross appreciates either of these guys removed, and even if you only manage to trap tyranitar, changing the weather is huge. 252hp suicune has ridiculous survivability without sand, which lets you invest in S.Atk. Heracross obviously enjoys not being chipped by sand when the sweep is on.



Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 SpA / 244 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Drill Peck
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Thunderbolt
- Roar / Toxic / Thunder Wave

Another monster for spikes abuse - breaks a lot of teams apart which rely on celebi or blissey for defensive integrity. Also deals nicely with the recent surge in brelooms, cacturnes and other bullshit. Last move is pretty customisable depending on what your team has issues with, but gonna highlight roar here as a cool way to rack up additional residuals that can put guys into 2hko range of hp fighting later on.
 
I want to talk about Zapdos and Salamence, and pinch berries.
First, Zapdos:
I feel like it really struggles with Blissey. That's why I came up with this set, almost like a nod to Gen 2
Zapdos @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Metal Sound
- Thunder Wave
I haven't done the calcs, but this works much like Thunder against Snorlax in Gen 2. Hit it with a Metal Sound to force it out, or do a massive amount of damage. Get even more of a surprise by running Petaya.
next, Salamence. I think that a lot of people overlook special sets on this thing, once again utilizing Petaya to get that extra oomph in a pinch.
Set:
Salamence @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Hydro Pump
I am aware that, as Vapicuno put it, "Petaya Berry/Hydro Pump Salamence doesn't exist". But it will get the surprise on some teams, and can still dish out damage. You might want to avoid using Dragon Claw at first, as it tends to lend the opponent the assumption you're using a special set.
Okay and then as far as pinch berries go: Why are they limited to Heracross? What's so bad about them? With Sandstorm chip damage making it about a 33% chance to get put in pinch range, and the ability to last for more than one turn at or above 8%, I don't see why they shouldn't be taken into consideration. Someone once told me about a SubLiechi Aerodactyl set that seemed really unpredictable:
Aerodactyl @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Earthquake
you think it's gonna come in for a revenge kill, then it just gets a Substitute off if you go for the switch. With its highest speed tier, it always gets a chance to get off a substitute as well.
it also helps the breaking potential of a lot of mons that don't have setup, like jolteon, who can't make use of other items to great effect, anyway.
as far as tiers go, I'd say move Salamence to A section 2. It makes for a great lead, can run a dragon dance set, a mixed set, or a cb set. It can even run a lum berry on its dd set, which is something I don't see a lot. lum isn't limited to dd ttar
 
+1 252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. -2 0 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 349-411 (53.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Zapdos Thunder vs. -2 0 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 323-381 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

I don't think thunder is really worth it here. That rate to 2hko (after a metal sound, so 3 turns) sounds good but actually will only work less than half of the time. Not to mention staying in on blissey to metal sound carries a lot of risk, as generally they will do one of wish, seismic toss, twave, toxic, or ice beam, and if they wish they can do whatever they want on the next turn. Zapdos gets crippled irreparably by twave and toxic, and ice beam chunks it quite a lot. Especially since this set lacks leftovers and is getting chipped by sand rapidly. I also think that baton pass is a better last move than twave, as you are unlikely to 1v1 the blissey if it isn't chipped and will want to pivot into something that takes advantage of it.

Lum dd mence I think is a bad idea for two reasons. The first is that mence will often have to switch into resisted attacks and wants every bit of longevity it can have, and leftovers is very crucial to that. You can also bluff mixmence instead of CB, as the mixmence switch ins are going to be easier to set up on than the CB mence ones, in general.

The second reason is that there are not many situations where status is getting clicked against a dd mence. Maybe twave gyara and wisp molt will, but aside from those not a lot. Blissey just wants to ohko with ice beam, and so does starmie. Skarm can click tox, but physical mence doesn't break skarm. Lum also isn't a great bluff for CB because the damage output is so different and the switch ins are pretty much the same. Mence probably won't even be staying in on stuff that might status it, aside from moltres, which it seems to me like that's the only thing this set beats now that a lefties set wouldn't. I think sub dd liechi sounds interesting but probably runs into coverage issues.

Pinch berries definitely have uses, but imo are always best on pokemon that are sand-immune. Liechi aero sounds cool, I know zomog used that on sdpass. My favorite pinch user is salac metagross, and I know pert does that well too. These have in common that they are a) sand-immune and b) have a reliable way of activating their berry. Also there's somebody on ladder with dd liechi tar and I think that's cool and could work well.
 
Hi everyone, seeing as I've had another early knock out from Callous Cup and probably won't be playing too much high stakes pokemon for the next year or so I figured I'd post some of the cool sets I used or planned to use in the tour. Hope some people can get some good use out of these and would love to hear about any cool teams you guys might make with them!


1595736515462.png


Scizor @ Salac Berry
Ability: Swarm
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Baton Pass
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Swords Dance
- Endure

This set is one of the most dangerous swords pass users in the tier. Endure salac is probably my favorite tech in ADV right now. In the case of Scizor it means you not only pass +1 speed alongside your +2 attack but also just helps you get the pass off in the first place which is otherwise hard to do with Scizor. This extra speed can be crucial for recipients like Gyarados, DD Tar and Metagross. Additionally, +2 Swarm HP Bug hits pretty much everything that doesn’t resist it extremely hard so this thing is actually a fairly capable threat all on its own in certain late game scenarios. It does make me extremely sad though that Scizor can’t use reversal and baton pass on the same set.

1595736531970.png


Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 16 HP / 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
- Hydro Pump
- Roar

Lots of people have been coming around to how good subpass vaporeon is. It hits so damn hard with Hydro Pump and so many team’s only option to take that attack is something like blissey or milotic, both of which just get eaten by the 101 HP Sub + Baton Pass combo. Unfortunately I’ve noticed a lot of people have caught on to what this thing does meaning things like Roar Suicune become kind of a nightmare. This set completely turns that on its head turning roar cune and other phazers in to easy set up fodder. Roar also turns Vaporeon in to a very effective counter to Suicune who can be a pain for a lot of the teams subpass vaporeon finds itself on. It's also pretty much the best counter in the game to oppsoing subpass vaporeon, which is becoming more and more relevant. Just make sure you have ways to deal with Mence and Celebi.

1595736547673.png


Tyranitar (M) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Endure

I’m fairly certain countless other players have done this before me but I’ve been using this guy a ton lately and have been blown away by how good it is. Obviously flygon and claydol are really rough for this set but it absolutely destroys teams that rely on aerodactyl and dugtrio to revenge +1 tyranitar, and it’s no worse vs those 2 than say HP Grass ttar. It can also come in handy against base 100s like Zapdos, Salamence and Jirachi and can even have cool late game applications in 1v1s vs stuff like metagross and other tar if you want to guarantee you’re faster. Honestly the possibilities are fairly endless with this set and it can make some pretty insane comebacks. The biggest thing I like is you don’t have to treat Tyranitar’s health like a precious substance. So many DD tar sets need tyranitar at max health to function but Salac gives Tyranitar the chance to still be valuable even from fairly low health.

1595736560850.png


Medicham @ Leftovers
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brick Break
- Rock Slide
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Punch

This set isn’t winning too many creativity awards, just standard medicham with lefties over choice band but that one change really turns this thing from a kinda swingy gimmick mon into a hit and run machine. It works particularly well when paired with subpass vaporeon as getting this guy in safely with a sub up is basically a guarantee you’re going to subtract a pokemon from the opponent’s team. There’s no pivoting around to Gengar and weaseling your way around that focus punch. Lum is also an option to eat will-o-wisp from Gengar but I find with spikes and sand wearing you down, it gives your opponent wiggle room to outmaneuver you, especially if they have a couple protect mons. I personally like using this along side a second fighter like Heracross, Breloom or Blaziken to really overwhelm opposing defensive cores.

1595736575424.png


Golduck @ Salac Berry
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Endure

Dekzeh beat me to the punch with this bad boy but I think it’s pretty legit. With cloud 9 you don’t take sand damage making endure + salac a viable option. This thing plays very similar to Kingdra and is ideal against hyper offensive builds. The advantage it has over Kingdra is one, your set up move boosts both of your attacks not just Hydro pump, and two, you can’t get your boosts stalled out with protect and switching. The obvious disadvantage being you’re operating at 1HP so you have to have everything in KO range to sweep making it kinda ineffective vs any stall team. You can drop endure to give yourself an extra moveslot if you like. Hypnosis is quite dangerous. Keep in mind though it doesn’t take much chip for this thing to end up in KO range of pretty much everything so I like Endure for the extra security.



Finally, just wanted to take this time to note that I think Smeargle deserves a huge bump on the rankings. The Spore Spikes set is such a great opener for offensive spikes teams who can sometimes have difficulty exerting early game pressure. This thing pretty much guarantees spikes and tempo very early in the game. I would say it is at least on the level of other early game sleepers like Vensuaur and Breloom. Vaporeon also deserves a bit of a bump I would say, it’s such a great addition to any offensive build and puts so many teams in between a rock and a hard place with the threat of its insanely strong Hydro pump and 101 HP subpass. I did not see the light on either of these mons the last time we submitted our rankings but they will definitely be reflected in my personal list next time around. I highly encourage anyone who hasn’t already to try these two out.
 

McMeghan

Dreamcatcher
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Hello everyone. With Callous Invitational IV now over, it feels appropriate to have the bi-annual VR update to keep things fresh. You know the drill by now but I will repeat it just in case...

I will just quote myself from the previous update regarding how this thing works:

I want every "relevant" ADV players to PM me their own ranking. I will then make an average of everyone's ranking to reach the final result (similary to the SPL pre-season power rankings). I plan to disclose the full results and show who voted what exactly.

I want you guys to give this post a quick read, and if you care about this thing, to send me YOUR own viability ranking by PM. Also, if you know anyone you'd consider as qualified enough to send their take on the matter, let them know and tell them to PM me with their ranking too.

The only thing I'll do is probably decide myself whose vote gets to be taken into account for the averaged result at the end. Feel free to ask me in PM if you'd make the cut so you dont waste time sending a ranking for no reason.
In the meantime, feel free to influence everyone's vote by pushing for or against various Pokemons.

I encourage everyone to get discussion going/post their rankings, I will post mine at least.

Please feel free to send me your rankings, especially if you're an active ADVer. Share this with your friends who play the tier. The more the better.
HLing a bunch of people: Tamahome ABR Gilbert arenas Triangles roystopror z0mOG eden gorgie UD Golden Sun CyberOdin✝ undisputed Star Cowboy Dan dice Gacu Fear Zokuru thelinearcurve M Dragon Fakes SoulWind Astamatitos Altina Sadlysius Hclat PDC Mana dekzeh Prinz vapicuno Dizno BKC
 
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