Almost Any Ability ORAS Viability Rankings (another revamp)

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approved by Eevee General on PS and the owner of the previous thread, Kl4ng . Originally approved by Arcticblast.
format stolen from kl4ng who stole it from a bunch of other people who probably stole that format too, etc.



(art by Bummer)

Link to the main thread
Welcome to the official AAA Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in AAA and what tier they should fall under. It's about time the OM subforum joined in on the action, and AAA's the perfect way to do it!

The general idea of the topic is to rank each AAA pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.
  • EX: Braviary can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Shuckle can be ranked under B as supportive threat and Chansey can also be ranked in A tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples.
Note that the overall tier list is in no particular order.

Below are the definitions of each rank, and they should be read be anyone that wants to participate in the discussion of Pokemon's ranks in AAA:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the AAA metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to abuse a variety of abilities effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the AAA metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.


B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the AAA metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the AAA metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the AAA metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

AAA ORAS Ranking Tier List
Common abilities added by Pagoose 09/12/2014

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
  • S Rank
- Doublade - Regenerator, Flash Fire, Levitate
- Heatran - Desolate Land, Chlorophyll, Magnet Pull, Levitate, Mold Breaker, Regenerator, Unburden
- Skarmory - Gale Wings, Flash Fire, Intimidate, Delta Stream, Unaware, Mold Breaker, Prankster
- Victini - Drought, Desolate Land, Tough Claws, Tinted Lens, No Guard, Sheer Force, Mold Breaker


A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the AAA metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

  • High A Rank
- Aegislash - Stance Change, Prankster
- Braviary - Gale Wings, Poison Heal, Delta Stream
- Deoxys-S - Mold Breaker, Download, Sheer Force, Tinted Lens
- Entei - Refrigerate, Tinted Lens, Desolate Land, Pixilate, Regenerator
- Gengar - Sheer Force, Normalize
- Honchkrow - Gale Wings, Adaptability
- Latios - Adaptability, Tinted Lens
- Lucario - Tough Claws, Pixilate, Refrigerate, Scrappy, Mega Launcher, Sheer Force, Technician
- Mew - Prankster, Poison Heal, No Guard, Magic Bounce, Sheer Force (Lots more, Mew can run almost anything given its expansive movepool)
- Snorlax - Poison Heal
- Thundurus - Refrigerate, Sheer Force, Magic Guard
- Mega Metagross - Defiant / Flash Fire -> Tough Claws

  • Mid A Rank
- Chansey - Magic Bounce, Regenerator, Flash Fire
- Deoxys-D - Mold Breaker, Poison Heal, Prankster

- Genesect - Refrigerate, Tough Claws, Sheer Force, No Guard, Tinted Lens, Regenerator.
- Manaphy - Motor Drive, Volt Absorb, Poison Heal, Prankster, Sheer Force, Unaware, Swift Swim
- Mandibuzz - Poison Heal, Delta Stream, Volt Absorb, Intimidate, Magic Bounce, Unaware
- Staraptor - Gale Wings, Tinted Lens, Guts, Poison Heal
- Suicune - Poison Heal, Unaware, Regenerator, Primordial Sea, Magnet Pull, Volt Absorb
- Zapdos - Delta Stream, Magic Guard, Poison Heal, Intimidate, Magic Bounce, Unaware, No Guard, Primordial Sea, Drizzle, Drought
- Mega Gyarados - Volt Absorb / Illusion / Magic Bounce -> Mold Breaker.


  • Low A Rank
- Cresselia - Unaware, Poison Heal, Regenerator, Magic Bounce
- Ferrothorn - Flash Fire/Primordial Sea, Prankster, Tough Claws, Magic Bounce, Mold Breaker, Unaware
- Goodra - Regenerator, Poison Heal
- Heracross - Tough Claws
- Jirachi - Tinted Lens, Regenerator, Sheer Force, Serene Grace
- Kyurem - Sheer Force, Adaptability, Refrigerate
- Landorus-I - Sheer Force, Refrigerate, Flash Fire
- Latias - Adaptability, Tinted Lens, Poison Heal
- Vaporeon - Poison Heal
- Zygarde - Refrigerate, Poison Heal
- Mega Diancie - Download / Illusion / Magic Bounce -> Magic Bounce


B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the AAA metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

  • High B Rank
- Azumarill - Poison Heal, Huge Power
- Chesnaught - Poison Heal, Unaware, Intimidate, Unburden, Flash Fire
- Diancie - Regenerator, Poison Heal
- Dragonite - Tough Claws, Pixilate, Refrigerate, Tinted Lens
- Garchomp - Adaptability, Poison Heal, Magic Bounce, Thick Fat, Technician
- Gliscor - Flash Fire, Bulletproof, Gale Wings
- Hippowdon - Intimidate, Unaware, Poison Heal, Magic Bounce.

SPRITE TBA - Hoopa-C - Sheer Force, Chlorophyll, Swift Swim, Unburden, Tinted Lens, Adaptability
- Landorus-T - Regenerator, Adaptability, Refrigerate, Flash Fire
- Pangoro - Tough Claws
- Shaymin-S - Serene Grace, Poison Heal, Sheer Force
- Shuckle - Mold Breaker, Prankster, Magic Bounce.
- Tentacruel - Regenerator
- Tyranitar - Adaptability, Unburden
- Umbreon - Poison Heal
- Mega Altaria - Magic Bounce / Multiscale / Illusion / Intimidate -> Pixilate
- Mega Ampharos - Magnet Pull / Competitive -> Mold Breaker
- Mega Manectric - Illusion / Magnet Pull / Intimidate -> Intimidate
- Mega Slowbro - Volt Absorb / Intimidate / Unaware / Magic Bounce -> Shell Armor
- Mega Swampert - Drizzle -> Swift Swim
- Mega Tyranitar - Intimidate / Magic Bounce / Prankster / Illusion / Defiant -> Sand Stream

  • Mid B Rank
- Azelf - Mold Breaker, Tough Claws, Sheer Force.
- Breloom - Prankster, Adaptability, Technician
- Clefable - Poison Heal, Magic Bounce, Unaware
- Greninja - Protean, Tinted Lens
- Haxorus - Tough Claws, Tinted Lens.
- Hydreigon - Mega Launcher, Sniper.
- Meloetta - Regenerator, Poison Heal, Tinted Lens, Sheer Force
- Mr. Duck - Prankster, Multiscale, Unaware, Pressure
- Raikou - Primordial Sea, Regenerator, Magnet Pull, Refrigerate, Sheer Force, Tinted Lens, Poison Heal
- Rotom-Wash - Magnet Pull, Poison Heal, Regenerator, No Guard, Drizzle / Primordial Sea, Levitate
- Rhyperior - Poison Heal, Regenerator
- Scizor - Regenerator, Flash Fire, Multiscale -> Technician.
- Sylveon - Poison Heal, Unaware
- Tornadus-T - Gale Wings, Drizzle / Primordial Sea, No Guard, Tinted Lens
- Tyrantrum - Magic Guard, Adaptability, Magic Bounce
- Mega Blastoise - Magnet Pull / Lightning Rod / Drizzle -> Mega Launcher
- Mega Charizard X - Magic Guard / Illusion / Download / Magic Bounce / Multiscale -> Tough Claws


  • Low B Rank
- Blastoise - Poison Heal
- Blaziken - Tough Claws, Magic Guard, Speed Boost
- Conkeldurr - Tough Claws, Poison Heal.
- Crobat - Magic Guard, Gale Wings
- Empoleon - Levitate, Swift Swim, Regenerator, Volt Absorb
- Gastrodon - Thick Fat, Sap Sipper, Poison Heal

- Jellicent - Prankster, Lightning Rod, Swift Swim
- Krookodile - Adaptability, Bulletproof
- Magnezone - Regenerator, Magnet Pull, Flash Fire, Levitate
- Regirock - Regenerator, Poison Heal
- Sneasel - Refridgerate, Adaptability
- Swampert - Bulletproof, Poison Heal, Regenerator, Sap Sipper
- Togekiss - Gale Wings, Magic Guard, Poison Heal, Pixilate
- Tornadus - Gale Wings, No Guard, Drizzle / Primordial Sea, Tinted Lens
- Volcorona - Magic Guard.
- Zoroark - Adaptability, Tough Claws, Sheer Force
- Mega Pinsir - Illusion / Download -> Aerilate


C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the AAA metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

  • High C Rank
- Arcanine - Tough Claws, Refrigerate
- Celebi - Unaware, Poison Heal.
- Excadrill - Flash Fire, Bulletproof, Refrigerate
- Gothitelle - Shadow Tag.
- Infernape - Adaptability, Drought, Sheer Force, Download, Mold Breaker, Magnet Pull, Refrigerate, Technician,
- Metagross - Flash Fire, Unburden, Regenerator
- Rampardos - Magic Guard, Sand Rush, Adaptability, Tinted Lens
- Roserade - Desolate Land, Solar Power, Chlorophyll
- Rotom-Heat - Poison Heal, Regenerator, Storm Drain, Levitate
- Shiftry - Adaptability, Gale Wings
- Starmie - Sheer Force, No Guard, Adaptability, Volt Absorb
- Talonflame - Magic Guard.
- Mega Alakazam
- Illusion / Magic Bounce -> Trace
- Mega Heracross - Flash Fire / Magic Bounce / Illusion -> Skill Link
- Mega Venusaur - Flash Fire / Intimidate / Prankster -> Thick Fat


  • Mid C Rank
- Blissey - Sheer Force, Harvest, Poison Heal
- Darmanitan - Unburden
- Delphox - Adaptability, Solar Power, Tinted Lens
- Diggersby - Huge Power
- Marowak - Technician.

SPRITE TBA - Omastar - Levitate, Regenerator, Swift Swim, Poison Heal
- Steelix - Regenerator, Flash Fire, Harvest
- Stunfisk - Primordial Sea, Bulletproof, Regenerator, Poison Heal
- Thundurus-T - Sheer Force
- Trevenant - Prankster, Poison Heal, Harvest
- Mega Aerodactyl - Defiant / Illusion -> Tough Claws
- Mega Charizard Y - Magic Guard / Download / Competitive / Illusion -> Drought
- Mega Gardevoir - Competitive / No Guard / Illusion / Download -> Pixilate
- Mega Houndoom - Drought -> Solar Power.
- Mega Sharpedo - Speed Boost -> Strong Jaw

  • Low C Rank
SPRITE TBA - Aerodactyl - Intimidate, Mold Breaker
- Cloyster - Refrigerate, Technician, Skill Link
- Crawdaunt - Adaptability, Unburden
- Ditto - Imposter.
- Florges - Prankster, Regenerator, Adaptability
- Heliolisk - Lightning Rod.
- Klefki - Pixilate, Prankster
- Lickilicky - Poison Heal
- Virizion - Magic Bounce
- Mega Garchomp - Sand Stream -> Sand Force.


D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the AAA metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

- Avalugg - Poison Heal, Magic Guard, Refrigerate
- Drifblim - Prankster, Poison Heal
- Dusclops - Normalize, Prankster, Regenerator
- Mega Abomasnow - Flash Fire -> Snow Warning
- Mega Absol - Illusion, Download -> Magic Bounce


Unranked Rank: These pokemon aren't bad, they just haven't been ranked. (Some of the worse pokemon were excluded, like espeon) Note that all nominations for pokemon from this rank will be implemented immediately as long as they are reasonable.

- Alomomomomomomomola
- Amoonguss

- Aromatisse
- Chandelure

- Cobalion
- Cradily
- Dragalge
- Feraligatr
- Froslass
- Gligar
- Hawlucha
- Kabutops
- Lanturn
- Mienshao
- Porygon-Z
- Reuniclus
- Rhydon
- Scolipede
- Slowking
- Slurpuff
- Spiritomb
- Venomoth
- Mega Aggron
- Mega Beedrill
- Mega Gallade
- Mega Medicham
- Mega Pidgeot
- Mega Sableye
- Mega Sceptile

Spinda Rank - Reserved for Spinda
- Spinda - Contrary


Rules
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
  • No flaming
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
  • manu 11 is amazing. This is an undisputed fact.
  • (Ideal) If you decide to talk about a certain pokemon that has not yet been talked about, please specify which rank, or around where, you would like to see it moved to.
Happy posting ♪♪
 
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CURRENTLY DISCUSSING
- Everything in the "unranked" Rank. Please nominate these for a rank of your choice if you have any experience with them.

- Absol (Tough Claws) -> Between Mid B and Mid A
- Conkeldurr (Tough Claws, Poison Heal, Magic Bounce) -> Between Low B and Mid A
 
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MANNAT

http://spo.ink/ao2
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I like how the abilities used are listed by the Pokemon! :D Will add thoughts later
 
Some thoughts:

Add Magnet Pull to Infernape and move it to low B imo. It's arguably the best steel trapper in the game.

Also add Prankster to Smeargle(Or was this banned? I can't remember.)

Add a link to the main AAA thread too.

Also you mentioned usage stats. Where can I find those?

I am also very confused by this:

Stunfisk - Primordial Sea, Bulletproof, Regenerator, Poison Heal
On another note, what are everyone's thoughts on Flare Boost? It's basically a special version of Guts which works only with burns.
 
Some thoughts:

Add Magnet Pull to Infernape and move it to low B imo. It's arguably the best steel trapper in the game.

Also add Prankster to Smeargle(Or was this banned? I can't remember.)

Add a link to the main AAA thread too.

Also you mentioned usage stats. Where can I find those?

I am also very confused by this:



On another note, what are everyone's thoughts on Flare Boost? It's basically a special version of Guts which works only with burns.
1. Magnet pull infernape isn't really B worthy imo, two of the most common steels are doublade and skarm, neither of which it traps.
2. Prankster smeargle is banned
3. Good idea.
4. http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-04/
5. Stunfisk was an experiment I tried out that actually worked; it's very bulky, walls birds, has the perfect movepool for primordial sea, letting it switch into victini and chlorotran, has access to scald, and has a unique typing that can be pretty useful. Bulletproof helps with gengar and other sheer force mons while assault vest regen can tank many special hits easily, and with scald + discharge, can spread status. Still, it doesnt have reliable recovery, only fits on certain teams, and is somewhat outclassed in some of its roles.
 
1. Magnet pull infernape isn't really B worthy imo, two of the most common steels are doublade and skarm, neither of which it traps.
2. Prankster smeargle is banned
3. Good idea.
4. http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-04/
5. Stunfisk was an experiment I tried out that actually worked; it's very bulky, walls birds, has the perfect movepool for primordial sea, letting it switch into victini and chlorotran, has access to scald, and has a unique typing that can be pretty useful. Bulletproof helps with gengar and other sheer force mons while assault vest regen can tank many special hits easily, and with scald + discharge, can spread status. Still, it doesnt have reliable recovery, only fits on certain teams, and is somewhat outclassed in some of its roles.
1. Doublade, yes. But unless it holds a Shed Shell, Skarmory is trapped. IIRC, Magnet Pull still affects flying types. Also for what it's worth, the usage stats show the following steel types in the top 10(I'm confused as to which one I'm supposed to look at so I'll mention them all):
1760: Doublade, Lucario, Genesect, Ferrothorn
1630: Lucario, Ferrothorn, Genesect, Skarmory, Doublade
1500: Ferrothorn, Lucario, Skarmory, Doublade, Genesect, Heatran
0: Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Lucario, Heatran
Of the lot, the only ones Infernape can't trap is Doublade. Everything else is either OHKO'd or 2HKO'd. Except for Flash Fire Skarm I guess which is 2HKO'd by Close Combat after SR.

Regardless, it still kills off some of the most used steel types in the meta.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
1. Doublade, yes. But unless it holds a Shed Shell, Skarmory is trapped. IIRC, Magnet Pull still affects flying types. Also for what it's worth, the usage stats show the following steel types in the top 10(I'm confused as to which one I'm supposed to look at so I'll mention them all):
1760: Doublade, Lucario, Genesect, Ferrothorn
1630: Lucario, Ferrothorn, Genesect, Skarmory, Doublade
1500: Ferrothorn, Lucario, Skarmory, Doublade, Genesect, Heatran
0: Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Lucario, Heatran
Of the lot, the only ones Infernape can't trap is Doublade. Everything else is either OHKO'd or 2HKO'd. Except for Flash Fire Skarm I guess which is 2HKO'd by Close Combat after SR.

Regardless, it still kills off some of the most used steel types in the meta.
Skarm usually has Gale Wings, and Brave Bird KOs Nape, and as much as I hate to say it, it's rather frail :/
 
On another note, what are everyone's thoughts on Flare Boost? It's basically a special version of Guts which works only with burns.
It would probably see more usage if there existed a special version of Facade; otherwise, it's vastly outclassed by better options.
 

Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
aesf I respect you as a player but sometimes I have no idea what your thought process is, no offense meant lol.

Why the hell is Doublade mid S? lol. Doublade is at best A, it loses to a lot of the stuff it's meant to beat depending on what ability it chooses. Levitate? you now lose your niche as Victini check that FF provides. FF? You now lose the ability to beat Mega Metagross and other important metagame threats.

And not to mention that without Regenerator it's absolutely dependent on wish support which can easily be disrupted. And without Wish support it just dies very early as it has no recovery, especially considering that it has to run eviolite which means unlike Cune it can't use something like lefties or toxic orb poison heal. (esp considering it's a steel type lol)

and why is Zapdos mid A instead of mid S? it's one of the most versatile and durable pokemon in the current metagame. It is a ridiculously good backbone that makes it very hard to apply safe pressure on a team.

Also Skarm is clearly top S, maybe Tini too, but Skarm is clearly on another level compared to the other things in S and is a very big part of the metagame. I will write more but rn I'm on mobile
 
Wow that art looks fucking sick!

Anyway, I disagree with Doublade moving down. In the current meta Doublade is pretty much the most defining pokemon, able to pivot around with regenerator and tank hits from pretty much every physical attacker. It is also the best counter to curse snorlax which is pretty much the best win con in the whole game for balanced and bulky teams, yes counting skarmory. IMO top and mid S should just be removed and replaced with S rank. It also can't be trapped by magnet pull, a significant plus for doublade over skamory who often finds itself trapped by a zapdos, mega manectric, mega ampharos, or any other electric type.

Zapdos has always been overrated IMO. Maybe moving up to A+ would be ok, but it is not an s rank pokemon. It just lacks the bulk to wall a lot of things, and while it is a great defogger and a flexible pivot it cannot do things like consistantly wall non skarmory gale wings users because it doesn't have the bulk.

I want to nominate hippowdon to move up to B+ and mega houndoom to move to C or C-. Intimidate hippowdon is a great wall that is extremely hard to break physically except for stab ice or water attacks. It can even switch into the likes of braviary, staraptor, and even a CB tough claws dragonite outrage and victini v-create, basically the 2 strongest viable physical attacks in the game. For Mega houndoom, I don't think it should be put in D, because it isn't that bad at all, able to 2hko things like snorlax! Even after losing drought, it is still a powerful and fast attacker, so it shouldn't be relegated to what is basically gimmick rank alongside drifblim and avalugg lol.
 

Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
"Anyway, I disagree with Doublade moving down. In the current meta Doublade is pretty much the most defining pokemon, able to pivot around with regenerator and tank hits from pretty much every physical attacker. It is also the best counter to curse snorlax which is pretty much the best win con in the whole game for balanced and bulky teams, yes counting skarmory. IMO top and mid S should just be removed and replaced with S rank. It also can't be trapped by magnet pull, a significant plus for doublade over skamory who often finds itself trapped by a zapdos, mega manectric, mega ampharos, or any other electric type."
rofl what?
The most defining mon of this meta is clearly Skarm, and we all know it at this point.

Even if you disagree with skarm, you just can't say Doublade of all things is the most defining.

If you say Regen is what makes it S then you are pretty damn out of your mind as it loses to a lot of relevant physical attackers- ttar, mega metagross EQ, VICTINI, Scrappy / Crunch SD Luke, Heatwave Honch and Entei

and you say it can run other abilities but without regen it is so easily worn down that it only checks what it's meant to fully counter.

Look if Doublade had non rest non wish support recovery I'd gladly put it in S but right now it just sounds like the flavor-of-the-month stall mon that is getting circlejerked atm. (no offense meant lol)

"It is also the best counter to curse snorlax which is pretty much the best win con in the whole game for balanced and bulky teams, yes counting skarmory."
I was going to call you stupid for calling curselax better wincon then realized you only said bulky and balanced teams, gg wp. lol
 
aesf I respect you as a player but sometimes I have no idea what your thought process is, no offense meant lol.

Why the hell is Doublade mid S? lol. Doublade is at best A, it loses to a lot of the stuff it's meant to beat depending on what ability it chooses. Levitate? you now lose your niche as Victini check that FF provides. FF? You now lose the ability to beat Mega Metagross and other important metagame threats.

And not to mention that without Regenerator it's absolutely dependent on wish support which can easily be disrupted. And without Wish support it just dies very early as it has no recovery, especially considering that it has to run eviolite which means unlike Cune it can't use something like lefties or toxic orb poison heal. (esp considering it's a steel type lol)

and why is Zapdos mid A instead of mid S? it's one of the most versatile and durable pokemon in the current metagame. It is a ridiculously good backbone that makes it very hard to apply safe pressure on a team.

Also Skarm is clearly top S, maybe Tini too, but Skarm is clearly on another level compared to the other things in S and is a very big part of the metagame. I will write more but rn I'm on mobile
So regarding S ranked pokemon:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

- Doublade
Honestly, right now, this is just one of those mons that basically "checks half the meta". Beyond that, it's a good win condition, and can, unlike other catch-alls, permanently cripple some mons with pursuit. What makes this so different from another walls and support things is that it actually applies quite a bit of offensive pressure, especially if you swords dance, and it also makes longevity less meaningful, since it gets pursuit.

I know you're an offensive player in AAA at least, and from what I've used, Flash Fire is generally the go-to option with hyper offensive teams. This way, you can still check Heatran, Skarmory, Victini, Entei, Birds, Lucario, and sometimes snorlax and latios with some prediction (that's pretty much the whole S Rank in terms of offensive threats), while keeping up offensive pressure by simply using swords dance. Levitate is used if you're really struggling with mega metagross, dragons, Quake+edge users and/or already have a fire spam check. I've used Doublade for probably 200 games, and it has been a game changer in the majority of them.

Doublade's longevity isn't really a problem, since it can pursuit trap much of its counters, and besides, it usually only needs to switch in a couple of times, and in my experience, doublade's sheer bulk and offensive pressure make up for its lack of recovery.

Basically doublade is pretty much the complete package in terms of roles; it's an excellent glue, and almost all its flaws are patched up by its positive traits anyways.

Also can I just make it clear that doublade is not a stall mon. It fits on literally every playstyle, no matter what the build is.

- Skarmory
Look, this is still really good, hence Mid S, and it hasn't really changed in terms of its role, but my main problems with this are: The rise of mega metagross, suddenly many people are running magnet pull, and also the fact that the metagame has adapted around it. It's still the best defogger in the game, although mega metagross is challenging that. It's still one of the best win conditions in the game, but now stuff like unaware cune and doublade and magnet pull are making it harder for skarmory. It's still a great user of flash fire and unaware and stuff like that, but now other things arguably do it better than skarmory. It's still really good, but so many things challenge it now that I just can't see how it's more amazing than something like victini or heatran or doublade.

Also, if you can convince me, I'll put Zapdos at A+ but probably not S just yet

I agree with hippowdon to B+ and Megadoom to C-, any objections?
 
"Anyway, I disagree with Doublade moving down. In the current meta Doublade is pretty much the most defining pokemon, able to pivot around with regenerator and tank hits from pretty much every physical attacker. It is also the best counter to curse snorlax which is pretty much the best win con in the whole game for balanced and bulky teams, yes counting skarmory. IMO top and mid S should just be removed and replaced with S rank. It also can't be trapped by magnet pull, a significant plus for doublade over skamory who often finds itself trapped by a zapdos, mega manectric, mega ampharos, or any other electric type."
rofl what?
The most defining mon of this meta is clearly Skarm, and we all know it at this point.

Even if you disagree with skarm, you just can't say Doublade of all things is the most defining.

If you say Regen is what makes it S then you are pretty damn out of your mind as it loses to a lot of relevant physical attackers- ttar, mega metagross EQ, VICTINI, Scrappy / Crunch SD Luke, Heatwave Honch and Entei

and you say it can run other abilities but without regen it is so easily worn down that it only checks what it's meant to fully counter.

Look if Doublade had non rest non wish support recovery I'd gladly put it in S but right now it just sounds like the flavor-of-the-month stall mon that is getting circlejerked atm. (no offense meant lol)

"It is also the best counter to curse snorlax which is pretty much the best win con in the whole game for balanced and bulky teams, yes counting skarmory."
I was going to call you stupid for calling curselax better wincon then realized you only said bulky and balanced teams, gg wp. lol
Some of those things you said Doublade doesn't even lose to: Mega Metagross only 4HKOs with earthquake and even a +2 Crunch Luke only does 65-77%, while Doublade can sacred sword+shadow sneak back for the OHKO with life orb damage. And skarm cant counter any of those except tyranitar either.

It isn't the stall mon of the month lol, it provides a counter or pivot switch into some of the strongest pokemon in the game: skarmory, braviary, staraptor, snorlax, mega metagross, lucario and other fighting types, latios, dragonite and other dragon types, etc. It can also run FF or Levitate to counter a bunch of other stuff which I don't have to explain obviously. It has greater physical bulk than hippowdon, with the typing of aegislash and either regenerator or an immunity ability to boot, which is simply amazing.

Yeah, well obviously snorlax isn't a great pick for a HO team lol, but on stall teams I would say it is a better win con than skarmory because there is practically only doublade and intimidate skarmory that beat the max attack varients, and gale wings skarmory if it doesn't get outplayed by protect/earthquake.
 
What happened to the decrease of Zapdos?
It's just not as good in terms of walling/checking things due to the power creep; most physical attackers have little problem with it (outside of birds, which can still get around it). If zapdos isn't at full and takes rocks damage, Braviary 2HKOs, Victini demolishes it, Entei destroys it with fridge espeed and sacred fire, snorlax sets up all over it, and most physical attackers now have ways around it...the rocks weakness really hurts it as a defogger unless it runs magic guard...I feel like it just lost much of its usefulness, although it still is a very good mon, but I just don't think it deserves S as much as I used to. PH snorlax and motor drive manaphy are practically on half of all teams, which can end up turning zapdos into even more of a liability than an effective support mon.
 
double posting because this is a relatively new thread and its already sort of dying.

(implemented Pagoose's suggestions)

There are a bunch of good pokemon that aren't on the viability rankings because of being unsure about placement and/or just flat out forgetting them. I'd like to see what people have to say about them:
Chandelure, Lanturn, Landorus-T, Mega Sableye, Crawdaunt, Serperior, Mega Gallade, Scolipede, Venomoth, Mega Absol, Feraligatr, Gligar, Porygon-Z, Salamence, Slowking, (and many more)
 
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Chandelure: It can run sheer force LO for ridiculously powerful STAB moves or desolate lands to shut down water types and hitting them with solar beam as well as having very strong fire type attacks. I also personally got rekt by magic guard (i think) sash once.

Blastoise: Generally runs Drizzle-> Mega on offense, can also run Motor Drive/some other ability that helps it premega form-> Mega i guess. Popular set on stall would be the PH rapid spin/scald set Adrian posted.

Landorus-T: I think I ran Scarf Flash fire once, maybe regen? idk

Crawdaunt: It can run it's regular ability or run swift swim on rain teams.

Feraligatr: It can probably do well running it's regular ability heh
 
I have used Adrian's Blastoise set and found it to be effective. Most spinblockers do not want to try to switch into Scald. Currently the major Ghost-types in AAA seem to be Doublade and Gengar. Doublade hates burns with a passion and generally tries to stay away from Scald as much as possible. Even if it isn't burned, it generally does not take too well considering it has no reliable recovery and cannot stay in and tank against Blastoise. Gengar does not mind the burn as much, but it is still frail and cannot switch in more than once if Stealth Rocks are up unless it gets extremely lucky. Blastoise is also needed as a hazard remover many times because it cannot be Taunted by a Deoxys-S that many HO teams use to set up hazards. Generally I feel it preforms well in the role of a hazard remover and bulky Water-type. I think around C+ or B- would be appropriate as it is somewhat situational.

0 SpA Blastoise Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 96-114 (37 - 44%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
Chandelure: It can run sheer force LO for ridiculously powerful STAB moves or desolate lands to shut down water types and hitting them with solar beam as well as having very strong fire type attacks. I also personally got rekt by magic guard (i think) sash once.

Blastoise: Generally runs Drizzle-> Mega on offense, can also run Motor Drive/some other ability that helps it premega form-> Mega i guess. Popular set on stall would be the PH rapid spin/scald set Adrian posted.

Landorus-T: I think I ran Scarf Flash fire once, maybe regen? idk

Crawdaunt: It can run it's regular ability or run swift swim on rain teams.

Feraligatr: It can probably do well running it's regular ability heh
I don't really need to know the ability just yet; I just want to know what rank it deserves currently.
I have used Adrian's Blastoise set and found it to be effective. Most spinblockers do not want to try to switch into Scald. Currently the major Ghost-types in AAA seem to be Doublade and Gengar. Doublade hates burns with a passion and generally tries to stay away from Scald as much as possible. Even if it isn't burned, it generally does not take too well considering it has no reliable recovery and cannot stay in and tank against Blastoise. Gengar does not mind the burn as much, but it is still frail and cannot switch in more than once if Stealth Rocks are up unless it gets extremely lucky. Blastoise is also needed as a hazard remover many times because it cannot be Taunted by a Deoxys-S that many HO teams use to set up hazards. Generally I feel it preforms well in the role of a hazard remover and bulky Water-type. I think around C+ or B- would be appropriate as it is somewhat situational.

0 SpA Blastoise Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 96-114 (37 - 44%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This is fair enough for a "base nomination", I'll put it at B-, although it can go higher or lower later on.

Anyways, I think I'm going to take away S+ rank from this thread. First of all, it seems to create a bit of controversy; second of all, more importantly, there isn't one threat that is more viable than anything else by far in AAA.

Oh and I just want to clarify: viability =/= defining (that definition is in other threads but not this one). For example, something like suicune would be S Rank if S meant defining, but is actually only A rank because it's not as viable due to water absorb and desolate land being everywhere to beat it.
 

Grim

The Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Regular Garchomp really needs to be ranked somewhere. It's actually a pretty good Pokemon and one of the most reliable Stealth Rock setters in the tier even though it loses to Skarmory, which sucks but you just need to have a Defiant / Competitive Pokemon somewhere (I've been using Amphy). Poison Heal Garchomp is amazingly consistent at setting up Stealth Rock and wallbreaking non-Unaware / Skarmory stuff with Swords Dance and its good STAB coverage. It can also pull of different sets like Moxie Choice Scarf, Magic Bounce lead, Adaptability SD, etc, and has a good matchup vs all S-ranks except Skarmory. I'd say mid or low A rank is where it belongs because I think it definitely is better than the Pokemon in the B ranks.

Btw Latias is better than mid B rank lol.
 
I think mega blastoise is pretty mediocre in the tier. It's really easy to wall and doesn't have the bulk to tank stronger hits, on top of having no form of recovery. On top of that you need to sacrifice your mega slot to use it. I would put it in mid C rank.
Regular blastoise is better because he can have recovery and is a decent spinner. B- sounds good.

Mega absol is also pretty mediocre, It's bad in regular play and hasn't gained anything in aaa while every dark type gained a stronge knock off. It's also stupid weak and dies to any priority. D rank.

Crobat on the other hand is a really good pokemon. Really high base speed making him a faster gale winger than skymin + decent bulk and offense and a very good movepool. I tried mixed magic guard with brave bird and heat wave to great success. It does a good deal of damage and also has taunt to annoy non mb walls. It's also a great defogger and a good pivot. I'm having trouble explaining because it's late and I'm tired but crobat is a really great mon. Low B would be fitting.

As for chomp I think it's actually really fitting of a B-B+ rank because I don't think it's good enough to be in A rank. Chomp also has a lot of competition from nite who can use Espeed and zygarde who is bulkyer.
 

Snaquaza

KACAW
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I don't feel like making a long post, but I want to talk about Moltres. Moltres isn't ranked right now and is in the current Core Ladder Challenge, so I feel like this is a good time to give it a rank, as it definitely deserves one.

I believe that the viable abilities are Magic Guard and Gale Wings with Drought, Desolate Land, Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, Drizzle and Primordial Sea being possibilities too. I personally use the Gale Wings set, but I know people have used Magic Guard and it makes sense since it can use its huge stats without having to take care of its 4x Stealth Rock Weakness. However, I believe the Gale Wings set is really something special, especially for rain teams. Gale Wings makes it an excellent sweeper with priority Hurricane, destroying most things that don't resist it or have enormous special bulk. Especially lategame it can easily clean up when everything has been weakened a bit, and it's also great at forcing people to sac something, as balanced teams often don't have something to switch in to this and defeat it 1v1. Its Stealth Rock weakness isn't even that bit in this position, as it usually only needs to get in once to do its job (and you can switch in a second time if you tried to revenge kill), but honestly Moltres isn't really supposed to be taking hits anyway against all the powerful threats in AAA, though it may have enough bulk to switch in normally without Stealth Rock.

There are definitely more arguments to be made, but this has really been shining for me, and seeing the general viability of rain teams I feel this should actually be in B-rank. Although I get that it's quite high.
 
Latias was sort of a mistake, fixed at A- now.
Put Crobat at B-, Mega Absol at D, and Moltres at B-, since all these nominations make sense.

Well we have one person saying Garchomp should be in B, and one who says it deserves A, anybody want to settle this? Personally I think it should be A- since it's extremely versatile, bulky and has power but matches up poorly against some of the top threats of the metagame.
 
My only problem with chomp is that I don't really see any reason to use him and not someone else. If I want a outrage nuke I'd use dragonite because of Extremespeed, if I want an earthquake nuke I'd use krook since he can beat leviblade, if I want a ph set up mon I'd use zygarde or lax since they are extremely bulky and have access to better moves (espeed / facade). If I want a ph stealth rocker or smt I'd use landorus-T since he has u-turn and knock off.
I'm not saying chomp is bad, chomp is actually really really good in AAA. I'm just saying that idk why I would use it over smt else. (A- / B+)
My opinion is not fixed on this one so if anyone can change it I'll gladly hear your arguments.

Also I think mega swampert should probably go down. It's not as good as other mons in A rank. Stall teams deal with him and offense teams have a lot of strong priority to deal with it. Swampert was really good against balanced team but I think now every decent balance team is prepared for swampert. It can still be effective in full rain teams since he's not limited to only one switch in but, yeah. You need a rain team for that.

Finally I might just be blind but I don't think I've seen Lando-T on there. I'm sugessting to put it wherever chomp ends up since the two are extremely similar, just that chomp walls fire while lando walls fighting.
And list thick fat as an ability for chomp, It's a great offensive check to victini and doesn't die to some random electric type using hp ice.
 
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