AAA Almost Any Ability (Resource Update! See post #152)

Hey guys I'm back for the time of the year where I make a really long post ranting about AAA again. (Inspired by pokevangelical Andyboy 's post about MnM)

The Speed Control Problem
If I had to pin one major issue with AAA right now, it's that the fastest mons in the meta are also the hardest to switch into. The general problem with this dynamic is that it destroys offensive builds. Because of how fast the top threats of AAA are, the only way to often avoid getting destroyed by these threats is by running more defensive mons, which all tend to be extremely passive. Before I start, I'd like to clarify that I don't think HO or mostly offensive teams are unviable--I just think they're just far more limited than they should be. But enough abstract stuff -- here, I'll break down 3 mons which I believe are very unhealthy for the current state of the metagame:

:Gengar:
Sets to consider

The main problem with Gengar is its Sheer Force Life Orb set. At 110 speed, gengar outspeeds the vast majority of the relevant metagame. And Sheer Force + Life Orb is so strong that anything faster risks getting OHKO'd on the switch. At the same time, it has basically no switchins outside of bulletproof mons and very niche AV mons like Goodra and Milotic.

The problem with mons that do run bulletproof to beat gengar is that it means one out of 6 mons are running bulletproof. For a meta where role compression is absolutely critical given the variety of sets, and there's a significant power creep that comes from having the right ability, forcing your steel type or your ground type to go bulletproof can be extremely debilitating. The majority of games, gengar or strong mons walled by your bulletproofer don't even show up, and in those games where it doesn't, you're sitting with an essentially base form mon that's likely not very useful against a team of 6 roided up mons on the other side. And no matter what the game, playing a 5 on 6 is never a good thing.

So what's the alternative? There are sets, like AV regen Goodra, AV regen Milotic, AV Snorlax (sense a trend? yeah...no mon to my knowledge lives a +2 attack from gengar without AV)... but of course, there's a catch. They're extremely passive, and are taken advantage of extremely easily without proper team support.

I shouldn't have to explain why running super passive mons on teams that want continuous offensive pressure is bad. For this reason, Gengar has a greater impact on teambuilding than anything else, and the amount it oppresses teambuilding makes it unhealthy.

:Noivern:
Sets to consider

Same principle as Gengar. Except now, you know it's clicking boomburst. Noivern's even faster than Gengar, capable of picking off literally every relevant mon besides Weavile, Dragapult, Mamoswine, and Triage fairies. Furthermore, specs boomburst ohkos pretty much the entire speedy metagame, meaning again that, just like Gengar, players have to turn toward passive, slow mons to defeat it. Like Gengar, nearly all, if not all, of noivern's common checks are extremely passive. With recent ompl games such as Thinkerino vs Sabella and Rozes vs Dragonillis proving that the most viable traditional noivern checks, Snorlax, and Corviknight, aren't even true switchins, the remaining pool of possible switchins is extremely small, and just like Gengar's, passive. You could even run soundproof, but that ability's even less useful than bulletproof, and fails on teams for the exact same reason. They even both end with "proof"! What could this mean? I'm not completely sure, but I have reason to suspect that it's *proof* that noivern and gengar are not healthy in the current AAA metagame.

:Dragapult:
Sets to consider

Dragapult's a little different than Gengar and Noivern in that its checks fulfill a lot more roles and are generally more useful than noivern's and gengar's. The main problem with dragapult is that it can be any set, and by threatening banded adapt, specs, mixed sheer force, and banded galvanize all at once, the dragapult user more often than not will get one free chance to deal 80% or kill a mon on the opposing team. After the set is revealed, it either continues to break, or functions as one of the best speed control/late game cleaners in the meta.

This replay demonstrates how even as dragapult is one of the best forms of speed control on the field, it also manages to deal massive damage to a team loaded with dragapult checks. This isn't a unique replay, either; I've executed and seem similar plays several times (against jrdn in ssnl and with various ompl peeps in test games) because of a trait Dragapult has that no other mon does. Schrodinger's Dragapult is a famous theory that argues that until the set is revealed, your opponent's Dragapult is banded adaptability, specs adaptability, banded galvanize, and mixed sheer force all at once. And that presence alone weighs very heavily on gameplay - against a dragapult, the best play is usually not to go to your best check; rather your best play is to go to your most expendable mon that checks at least one set and pray. I think this is the most unhealthy aspect of dragapult.

This is leaving out that Dragapult's new Sheer Force set has a noivern/gengar-esque effect where it has few, if any relevant switchins while also being faster than pretty much the whole meta barring priority and random scarf. There's also a new set that I'm not allowed to talk about yet that has a similar effect.

Other Problematic Stuff
:Terrakion:
Realistically, this mon has like 4 checks in the entire AAA metagame: dauntless shield hippowdon, prankster toxapex, dauntless shield mew, and doublade. The problem for Terrakion is that in this current metagame, these four are everywhere, especially dauntless shield mew, which, given its utility and offensive presence with +1 body press, fits on all types of teams already. I can't say Terrakion is as high profile of a threat as the three listed above, but it's definitely something worth considering as unhealthy for the AAA metagame if not now then in the near future.

:Kyurem:
Just like the above Gengar and Noivern, the only real counterplay to Kyurem from a defensive standpoint is to run passive, often subpar mons. Between Specs Adaptability and Life Orb Sheer Force, kyurem is an enormous threat that every fatter team needs to have counterplay for. Unlike the 3 mons above, Kyurem's a noticeable bit slower, which hurts it a little bit. Aside from that, it's more of a huge strain on teambuilding than anything, and, similarly to gengar, it's capable of completely dismantling teams that don't prepare a good amount for it.

:Toxic Orb:
Maybe Poison Heal too but can't ask for too much haha right
(e: just to be clear I don't wanna group poison heal with these other 5, they're far bigger issues at the moment)

--------------
TL;DR The fastest stuff are too strong, so you have to run passive stuff, but being basically required to run multiple passive mons is bad for a meta.

Thanks for reading!
 
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Hey guys I'm back for the time of the year where I make a really long post ranting about AAA again. (Inspired by pokevangelical Andyboy 's post about MnM)

The Speed Control Problem
If I had to pin one major issue with AAA right now, it's that the fastest mons in the meta are also the hardest to switch into. The general problem with this dynamic is that it destroys offensive builds. Because of how fast the top threats of AAA are, the only way to often avoid getting destroyed by these threats is by running more defensive mons, which all tend to be extremely passive. Before I start, I'd like to clarify that I don't think HO or mostly offensive teams are unviable--I just think they're just far more limited than they should be. But enough abstract stuff -- here, I'll break down 3 mons which I believe are very unhealthy for the current state of the metagame:

:Gengar:
Sets to consider

The main problem with Gengar is its Sheer Force Life Orb set. At 110 speed, gengar outspeeds the vast majority of the relevant metagame. And Sheer Force + Life Orb is so strong that anything faster risks getting OHKO'd on the switch. At the same time, it has basically no switchins outside of bulletproof mons and very niche AV mons like Goodra and Milotic.

The problem with mons that do run bulletproof to beat gengar is that it means one out of 6 mons are running bulletproof. For a meta where role compression is absolutely critical given the variety of sets, and there's a significant power creep that comes from having the right ability, forcing your steel type or your ground type to go bulletproof can be extremely debilitating. The majority of games, gengar or strong mons walled by your bulletproofer don't even show up, and in those games where it doesn't, you're sitting with an essentially base form mon that's likely not very useful against a team of 6 roided up mons on the other side. And no matter what the game, playing a 5 on 6 is never a good thing.

So what's the alternative? There are sets, like AV regen Goodra, AV regen Milotic, AV Snorlax (sense a trend? yeah...no mon to my knowledge lives a +2 attack from gengar without AV)... but of course, there's a catch. They're extremely passive, and are taken advantage of extremely easily without proper team support.

I shouldn't have to explain why running super passive mons on teams that want continuous offensive pressure is bad. For this reason, Gengar has a greater impact on teambuilding than anything else, and the amount it oppresses teambuilding makes it unhealthy.

:Noivern:
Sets to consider

Same principle as Gengar. Except now, you know it's clicking boomburst. Noivern's even faster than Gengar, capable of picking off literally every relevant mon besides Weavile, Dragapult, Mamoswine, and Triage fairies. Furthermore, specs boomburst ohkos pretty much the entire speedy metagame, meaning again that, just like Gengar, players have to turn toward passive, slow mons to defeat it. Like Gengar, nearly all, if not all, of noivern's common checks are extremely passive. With recent ompl games such as Thinkerino vs Sabella and Rozes vs Dragonillis proving that the most viable traditional noivern checks, Snorlax, and Corviknight, aren't even true switchins, the remaining pool of possible switchins is extremely small, and just like Gengar's, passive. You could even run soundproof, but that ability's even less useful than bulletproof, and fails on teams for the exact same reason. They even both end with "proof"! What could this mean? I'm not completely sure, but I have reason to suspect that it's *proof* that noivern and gengar are not healthy in the current AAA metagame.

:Dragapult:
Sets to consider

Dragapult's a little different than Gengar and Noivern in that its checks fulfill a lot more roles and are generally more useful than noivern's and gengar's. The main problem with dragapult is that it can be any set, and by threatening banded adapt, specs, mixed sheer force, and banded galvanize all at once, the dragapult user more often than not will get one free chance to deal 80% or kill a mon on the opposing team. After the set is revealed, it either continues to break, or functions as one of the best speed control/late game cleaners in the meta.

This replay demonstrates how even as dragapult is one of the best forms of speed control on the field, it also manages to deal massive damage to a team loaded with dragapult checks. This isn't a unique replay, either; I've executed and seem similar plays several times (against jrdn in ssnl and with various ompl peeps in test games) because of a trait Dragapult has that no other mon does. Schrodinger's Dragapult is a famous theory that argues that until the set is revealed, your opponent's Dragapult is banded adaptability, specs adaptability, banded galvanize, and mixed sheer force all at once. And that presence alone weighs very heavily on gameplay - against a dragapult, the best play is usually not to go to your best check; rather your best play is to go to your most expendable mon that checks at least one set and pray. I think this is the most unhealthy aspect of dragapult.

This is leaving out that Dragapult's new Sheer Force set has a noivern/gengar-esque effect where it has few, if any relevant switchins while also being faster than pretty much the whole meta barring priority and random scarf. There's also a new set that I'm not allowed to talk about yet that has a similar effect.

Other Problematic Stuff
:Terrakion:
Realistically, this mon has like 4 checks in the entire AAA metagame: dauntless shield hippowdon, prankster toxapex, dauntless shield mew, and doublade. The problem for Terrakion is that in this current metagame, these four are everywhere, especially dauntless shield mew, which, given its utility and offensive presence with +1 body press, fits on all types of teams already. I can't say Terrakion is as high profile of a threat as the three listed above, but it's definitely something worth considering as unhealthy for the AAA metagame if not now then in the near future.

:Kyurem:
Just like the above Gengar and Noivern, the only real counterplay to Kyurem from a defensive standpoint is to run passive, often subpar mons. Between Specs Adaptability and Life Orb Sheer Force, kyurem is an enormous threat that every fatter team needs to have counterplay for. Unlike the 3 mons above, Kyurem's a noticeable bit slower, which hurts it a little bit. Aside from that, it's more of a huge strain on teambuilding than anything, and, similarly to gengar, it's capable of completely dismantling teams that don't prepare a good amount for it.

:Toxic Orb:
Maybe Poison Heal too but can't ask for too much haha right

--------------
TL;DR The fastest stuff are too strong, so you have to run passive stuff, but being basically required to run multiple passive mons is bad for a meta.

Thanks for reading!
Great analysis which i mostly agree with and i LOVE that you mentioned Pheal being problematic. I ranted about PHeal in the OM room a couple of weeks ago and didn't get many people agreeing with me, but you just gave me hope. I will try to repost my "reasons why PHEAL is unhealthy" rant in this thread in the next few days.
 
I will say too that this is an excellent analysis!
I'm just sad that Gengar is there, since i incapable of building teams without starting from a fun set (and SFLO Gengar is the only one rn in AAA t.t)
I guess i agree with everything. Rn this is a crazy meta. I personally think that maybe Dragapult is "worse" than the other mons because it is used a lot more (in my experience.)
Noivern is a mon that i've always hated. no one remembers it but you HAVE to have a counter for that damned BB -.-
 
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aVocado

@ Everstone
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Hey guys I'm back for the time of the year where I make a really long post ranting about AAA again. (Inspired by pokevangelical Andyboy 's post about MnM)

The Speed Control Problem
If I had to pin one major issue with AAA right now, it's that the fastest mons in the meta are also the hardest to switch into. The general problem with this dynamic is that it destroys offensive builds. Because of how fast the top threats of AAA are, the only way to often avoid getting destroyed by these threats is by running more defensive mons, which all tend to be extremely passive. Before I start, I'd like to clarify that I don't think HO or mostly offensive teams are unviable--I just think they're just far more limited than they should be. But enough abstract stuff -- here, I'll break down 3 mons which I believe are very unhealthy for the current state of the metagame:

:Gengar:
Sets to consider

The main problem with Gengar is its Sheer Force Life Orb set. At 110 speed, gengar outspeeds the vast majority of the relevant metagame. And Sheer Force + Life Orb is so strong that anything faster risks getting OHKO'd on the switch. At the same time, it has basically no switchins outside of bulletproof mons and very niche AV mons like Goodra and Milotic.

The problem with mons that do run bulletproof to beat gengar is that it means one out of 6 mons are running bulletproof. For a meta where role compression is absolutely critical given the variety of sets, and there's a significant power creep that comes from having the right ability, forcing your steel type or your ground type to go bulletproof can be extremely debilitating. The majority of games, gengar or strong mons walled by your bulletproofer don't even show up, and in those games where it doesn't, you're sitting with an essentially base form mon that's likely not very useful against a team of 6 roided up mons on the other side. And no matter what the game, playing a 5 on 6 is never a good thing.

So what's the alternative? There are sets, like AV regen Goodra, AV regen Milotic, AV Snorlax (sense a trend? yeah...no mon to my knowledge lives a +2 attack from gengar without AV)... but of course, there's a catch. They're extremely passive, and are taken advantage of extremely easily without proper team support.

I shouldn't have to explain why running super passive mons on teams that want continuous offensive pressure is bad. For this reason, Gengar has a greater impact on teambuilding than anything else, and the amount it oppresses teambuilding makes it unhealthy.

:Noivern:
Sets to consider

Same principle as Gengar. Except now, you know it's clicking boomburst. Noivern's even faster than Gengar, capable of picking off literally every relevant mon besides Weavile, Dragapult, Mamoswine, and Triage fairies. Furthermore, specs boomburst ohkos pretty much the entire speedy metagame, meaning again that, just like Gengar, players have to turn toward passive, slow mons to defeat it. Like Gengar, nearly all, if not all, of noivern's common checks are extremely passive. With recent ompl games such as Thinkerino vs Sabella and Rozes vs Dragonillis proving that the most viable traditional noivern checks, Snorlax, and Corviknight, aren't even true switchins, the remaining pool of possible switchins is extremely small, and just like Gengar's, passive. You could even run soundproof, but that ability's even less useful than bulletproof, and fails on teams for the exact same reason. They even both end with "proof"! What could this mean? I'm not completely sure, but I have reason to suspect that it's *proof* that noivern and gengar are not healthy in the current AAA metagame.

:Dragapult:
Sets to consider

Dragapult's a little different than Gengar and Noivern in that its checks fulfill a lot more roles and are generally more useful than noivern's and gengar's. The main problem with dragapult is that it can be any set, and by threatening banded adapt, specs, mixed sheer force, and banded galvanize all at once, the dragapult user more often than not will get one free chance to deal 80% or kill a mon on the opposing team. After the set is revealed, it either continues to break, or functions as one of the best speed control/late game cleaners in the meta.

This replay demonstrates how even as dragapult is one of the best forms of speed control on the field, it also manages to deal massive damage to a team loaded with dragapult checks. This isn't a unique replay, either; I've executed and seem similar plays several times (against jrdn in ssnl and with various ompl peeps in test games) because of a trait Dragapult has that no other mon does. Schrodinger's Dragapult is a famous theory that argues that until the set is revealed, your opponent's Dragapult is banded adaptability, specs adaptability, banded galvanize, and mixed sheer force all at once. And that presence alone weighs very heavily on gameplay - against a dragapult, the best play is usually not to go to your best check; rather your best play is to go to your most expendable mon that checks at least one set and pray. I think this is the most unhealthy aspect of dragapult.

This is leaving out that Dragapult's new Sheer Force set has a noivern/gengar-esque effect where it has few, if any relevant switchins while also being faster than pretty much the whole meta barring priority and random scarf. There's also a new set that I'm not allowed to talk about yet that has a similar effect.

Other Problematic Stuff
:Terrakion:
Realistically, this mon has like 4 checks in the entire AAA metagame: dauntless shield hippowdon, prankster toxapex, dauntless shield mew, and doublade. The problem for Terrakion is that in this current metagame, these four are everywhere, especially dauntless shield mew, which, given its utility and offensive presence with +1 body press, fits on all types of teams already. I can't say Terrakion is as high profile of a threat as the three listed above, but it's definitely something worth considering as unhealthy for the AAA metagame if not now then in the near future.

:Kyurem:
Just like the above Gengar and Noivern, the only real counterplay to Kyurem from a defensive standpoint is to run passive, often subpar mons. Between Specs Adaptability and Life Orb Sheer Force, kyurem is an enormous threat that every fatter team needs to have counterplay for. Unlike the 3 mons above, Kyurem's a noticeable bit slower, which hurts it a little bit. Aside from that, it's more of a huge strain on teambuilding than anything, and, similarly to gengar, it's capable of completely dismantling teams that don't prepare a good amount for it.

:Toxic Orb:
Maybe Poison Heal too but can't ask for too much haha right
(e: just to be clear I don't wanna group poison heal with these other 5, they're far bigger issues at the moment)

--------------
TL;DR The fastest stuff are too strong, so you have to run passive stuff, but being basically required to run multiple passive mons is bad for a meta.

Thanks for reading!
Your post is highlighting a lot of issues that I find annoying in AAA. I've been playing AAA on and off since i believe ORAS? idk when, but it's been a good while. Noivern has been a broken cunt every time I decided to pick the meta again and it's honestly getting really boring. I've never in my life of playing comp mons since dpp have seen a mon so one dimensional but also so broken at the same time (outside of stag mons anyway -_-)

Anyway I agree with most of your post but I don't like how hard it is to find a solution. my solution is not met well with most of the AAA community I think, which is to simply just ban noivern and dragapult. You make a solid case for dragapult so I don't really need to add much but I will just say that I successfully have run maybe 6-7 different dragapult sets and they all performed spectacularly which is honestly hilarious. For reference the sets I tried were: DD Technician, SFLO (both mixed and special), Specs, Scarf, Banded Adapt and Technician (the latter's more broken btw), and SubDisable pheal which is actually so funny. This thing needs to go, hands down.

For the more controversial take:

Noivern needs to go before Dragapult honestly simply because of its sheer pressure on teambuilding, team preview, and during actual games. It blowing back checks that aren't regenvest steel-types is just silly. It clicks boomburst and does 40% to ev'd resists with no drawback. I just don't want to be forced to run an regenvest mon on every team and the pressure that noivern puts on just makes that impossible. I've resorted to spdef regen rotom-h, some weird rachi sets, silvally-electric, and even soundproof kommo. I will never use any of these mons (outside of rotom-h) if it wasn't for noivern. Also its speed putting it above everyone except dragapult and jolteon is stupid. A Pokemon that has 0 drawbacks and claims 1 unless u have a regenvest max ev'd resist needs to go, it adds nothing.

I'm not saying noivern has no answers. The players adapted, I adapted, but not all adaptation is healthy. the meta is centred around noivern and dragapult and removing those things' checks/counters for them to sweep. I can't find myself using traditional offense w/o some sort of pivots specifically so I don't lose to fast wallbreakers. Traditionally in Pokemon faster mons trade power for more speed, but AAA allows them to gain power through abilities. Now sure, that IS the point of this OM and what makes it fun, but we gotta draw a line somewhere.

I don't think Gengar and Terrakion are too much right now, but I can agree with Kyurem. specs adaptability Freeze-Dry is stupid.
 
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Sylveon.

Penny saved is still a fucking penny
is a Pre-Contributor
I'd like to add a little point as well, to aesf's post and the post above. While some broken mon in a metagame is normally not subjective but it's really not a surprise why it is turning out to be so. See in the current generation we just do not have enough defensive counterplay, so as a result so many mons which were never that big of a issue before are suddenly popping up. In light of such things, I think atleast till we get more mons, I dont think we should be focusing on defensive abilities at all. Dauntless Shield or PH are certainly annoying believe me, but removal of either of them in the current meta will probably end up having more negative impact in the short run.

Now coming to offensive ones, while I do think all of the mons in aesf's list deserve a review in their own right, now or in future. But having played AAA for now basically 3 generations, we have always had mons which basically had the 1hko/2hko the whole meta potential but at the same time had multiple drawbacks, sometimes lack of speed or at other times not being able to get past a certain mon no matter what they do (think gen 7 noivern vs defensive magearna match up if you take out magpull out of the equation). While this isnt a positive thing, but what it did was give the meta some time to recognise the threat and eventually come to the decision that yeah this mon is way too overcentralising and we can suspect it.

This is my biggest issue of with Dragapult, its innate ability to completely evade preparedness. If you think yeah man I got my sheer force pult match up figured out, here we go with a specs adapt draco and there goes your mon, okay and if you think no worries I got that covered with an AV mon, then it can randomly show up with banded galvanize to snipe than kill. And unlike lets say someone like noivern which sure hits really hard, and can kill an unprepared team completely (unlike draga I might add, you can probably play around once you lost 2 mons discovering its set), atleast if you have a counter to it, you know its fine vern isnt going to do too much probably just u turn half the game, and since every other set on it is useless there is no added surprise either, but as a player I despise the ability to lose to pult even if you have done everything right in the whole game, which again stems from the stupid fact that unlike vern or gengar, both of which are borderline broke for me as well, dragapult can run 8 different sets without it altering the team configeration at all, nor compromising its match up in general due to its blazing fast speed.
 
The inconceivable versatility of Dragapult: Until it selects a move, you have no clue what you're dealing with--and if it turns out that you brought the wrong counters(s), there is only one word permissible to utter before it lays waste to your team: "him."

I figured that I might as well post (what I imagine to be) the most dangerous sets that Dragapult can fathomably run and give a little context to all of the well-constructed arguments for its broken-ness (i.e. taking its VR spot and making a set out of every ability).

:Dragapult:
Dragapult @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 132 Atk / 252 SpA / 124 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Rush
- Steel Wing
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt

I don't think it takes much to accept why this is touted as the most frustratingly versatile set Dragapult can run. It manages to nuke virtually everything due to coverage, and frankly the most consistent counter to it is missing Dragon Rush, as I'm sure anyone who's used this can attest to. As will be the general pattern with every set posted here, surprise factor is absolutely massive in terms of what Dragapult can do, because it allows you bluff sets you don't have, while continuing to threaten the one you do have. At first glance, you might think "Oh, Snorlax in!"

132 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Dragapult Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 337-398 (64.3 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
It's also worth noting that to maximize greed, it's 100% tenable to run EVs with a physical bias and blow Snorlax into the shadow realm.

Two important mons that this set also takes advantage of are Clefable and Primarina, who are not only common/viable but are Fairy types, "equipped" with the means to "handle" dragon-
132 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Dragapult Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 289-341 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Dragapult Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 244-289 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Dragapult Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 221-263 (55.2 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


:Dragapult:
Dragapult @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Ball
- U-turn
- Fire Blast / Thunderbolt

Anyone who's played against me on the ladder a lot (or even in general) knows that this is far and away my favorite Dragapult set (although admittedly not as potent in the current meta), and for arguably good reason. While it doesn't boast any of the sheer wallbreaking ability unique to its SFLO or Adaptability/Technician sets, Choice Scarf QM is more of a tech than anything else. It's fast enough to outspeed any +2 [speed] mon up to base 94, which means Dragapult outspeeds most setup-sweepers/terrain abusers/rain abusers without having to set anything up itself. Of course, the lack of raw power shows in the fact that for this set to put in work, the requirements are chip damage and a longterm gameplan, but when are those things not necessary? As for the question of why Queenly Majesty > Dazzling, innumerable test games and an abundance of data show that Dragapult's tendency to win a game increases by a minimum of 50% when you use the former over the latter. Additionally, being immune to priority is a nice tech for things like triage, sucker punch (bisharp), ice shard (mamoswine/weavile), and the like, because QM essentially eliminates your weakness to whatever moves are applicable.

:Dragapult:
Dragapult @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Ball
- U-turn
- Fire Blast / Thunderbolt

:Dragapult:
Dragapult @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
- Draco Meteor

Specs Adapt is probably the most straight forward set you'll see--it comes in, clicks a button, and switches out. There isn't a lot to say other than admittedly, Snorlax tends to find a way to be a dragon immunity to draco:
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 238-282 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 262-310 (50 - 59.1%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 188 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 254-300 (50 - 59%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 188 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 278-328 (54.7 - 64.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
...just give it a few turns after the draco lands, and you'll know exactly what I mean. Regardless, specs adapt takes advantage of Dragapult's natural speed, enabling it to pretty much "spam at will" with its STAB moves.

As for the physical set, Dragapult gains the ability (see what I did there?!) to take its strongest stab moves and run them on the same set. While this kind of moveset admittedly gets smashed, bashed, and thrashed by Fairy+Normal on the same team (i.e. clef/primarina + lax), it otherwise frustrates would-be switchins like Dshield Hippowdon by chipping them with phantom force, then finishing them off:
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Dragapult Phantom Force vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 172-203 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Life Orb Adaptability Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 283-335 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lastly, dragon dance is dragon dance. You set up and get stronger/faster, then wreak havoc as expected--stopped truthfully only by things like prankster haze or physical fairy types.

While there was mention of SubDisable and Galvanize sets, I'm not going to list those as examples because they're more niche than anything. Even so, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered in teambuilding, because unprepared teams can still lose relatively easily on matchup. The last set that I think contributes to Dragapult's versatility is

:Dragapult:
Dragapult @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Steel Wing
- U-turn
- Will-O-Wisp / Sucker Punch

^It can be Adamant too

This set is absolutely DISGUSTING. Barring fairy types, a 150 base power stab move that hits twice means sashes are broken,
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 150-176 (35.7 - 41.9%) -- approx. 89.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 164-194 (39 - 46.1%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 168-200 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- approx. 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 186-218 (46 - 53.9%) -- approx. 42.6% chance to 2HKO
and
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 168-198 (42 - 49.5%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 182-216 (45.5 - 54%) -- approx. 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 102-122 (28.9 - 34.6%) -- approx. 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 114-134 (32.3 - 38%) -- approx. 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And none of those calcs take into account the potential for wisp/scald burns and knock off support!

In essence, Dragapult's combination of blazingly fast speed and coverage options that are so easy to overturned act as enablers to the surprise factor that makes it so hard to deal with. Now obviously, with two anticipated DLC drops this year the meta has plenty of room to change and potentially adapt to the threat Dragapult poses, but as of right now I think it's appropriate to label it the king of "prep, or repent." Who really knows, though? This is AAA, after all; almost anything can happen.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Time for another episode of Dragapult being pushed over the edge thanks to Other Metagame mechanics! This week, featuring AAA :o


If that was not clear enough, Dragapult is now quickbanned from AAA after a nearly unanimous vote from the council!

Thanks to it's above average offensive stats, incredible Speed tier, and deep coverage movepool, Dragapult has been the forefront of the offensive AAA metagame due to the combination of all it's viable and threatening offensive sets. As outlined in this post, Dragapult can run both physically offensive, specially offensive, and mixed offensive sets extremely well which can lure and threaten out most of it's supposed checks until the entire set is properly scouted for. This combined with a typing that offers it amazing neutral coverage via its STABs alone added onto great coverage moves such as Steel Wing, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, and pivoting like U-Turn makes playing against Dragapult extremely dangerous and nigh impossible at times. The rise of mixed sets in particular have really pushed Dragapult over the edge as usual checks in Clefable, Sylveon, and Toxapex cannot stomach the damage output from sets abusing abilities such as Adaptability and Sheer Force. Simply put, Dragapult is too potent and splashable as an offensive threat in the current AAA metagame and thus was deemed banworthy and worthy of a quickban especially with the current OMPL tournament underway.

Replays of it in action:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8almostanyability-1111719217
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8almostanyability-1111200973
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8almostanyability-1099566392

If you have any questions, feel free to contact any of the council members. Hope everyone is enjoying AAA!

Tagging Kris The Immortal to implement the ban por favor
 

Sylveon.

Penny saved is still a fucking penny
is a Pre-Contributor
Time for another episode of Dragapult being pushed over the edge thanks to Other Metagame mechanics! This week, featuring AAA :o


If that was not clear enough, Dragapult is now quickbanned from AAA after a nearly unanimous vote from the council!

Thanks to it's above average offensive stats, incredible Speed tier, and deep coverage movepool, Dragapult has been the forefront of the offensive AAA metagame due to the combination of all it's viable and threatening offensive sets. As outlined in this post, Dragapult can run both physically offensive, specially offensive, and mixed offensive sets extremely well which can lure and threaten out most of it's supposed checks until the entire set is properly scouted for. This combined with a typing that offers it amazing neutral coverage via its STABs alone added onto great coverage moves such as Steel Wing, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, and pivoting like U-Turn makes playing against Dragapult extremely dangerous and nigh impossible at times. The rise of mixed sets in particular have really pushed Dragapult over the edge as usual checks in Clefable, Sylveon, and Toxapex cannot stomach the damage output from sets abusing abilities such as Adaptability and Sheer Force. Simply put, Dragapult is too potent and splashable as an offensive threat in the current AAA metagame and thus was deemed banworthy and worthy of a quickban especially with the current OMPL tournament underway.

Replays of it in action:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8almostanyability-1111719217
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8almostanyability-1111200973
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8almostanyability-1099566392

If you have any questions, feel free to contact any of the council members. Hope everyone is enjoying AAA!

Tagging Kris The Immortal to implement the ban por favor
You know I might have kids one day or not, but I am sure that will not be the happiest day in my life.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ok so we voted on another VR slate given how the current one was extremely outdated and here are the results!

RISES
:Mew: A+ -> S
:Gengar: A -> A+
:Noivern: A -> A+
:Toxapex: A -> A+

:Terrakion: A -> A+
:Golisopod: A- -> A
:Togekiss: A- -> A
:Jirachi: A- -> A
:Silvally-Electric: B+ -> A-
:Chandelure: B+ -> A-
:Cobalion: B+ -> A-
:Dracozolt: B -> A-
:Weavile: B+ -> A-
:Conkeldurr: B -> B+
:Milotic: B- -> B

DROPS
:Clefable: A -> A-
:Kommo-o: A- -> B+
:Avalugg: B+ -> B

:Hatterene: A- -> B-
:Sirfetch B+ -> B
:Barraskewda: B -> UR
:Shuckle: B -> UR
:Gastrodon: B -> UR
:Drapion: B- -> UR
:Sylveon: B- -> UR

We have also updated the ability listings to be more accurate to whats currently viable and whats most commonly used. If you have any questions regarding the placements of certain pokemon or explanations on any changes, feel free to PM any of the council members!
 

LBDC

Formerly LaBalladeDesCieux
is a Social Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
So, for these who don't know, the first DLC is out, and playable on Showdown, though there still some bugs/unknown mechanisms. After playing few games on the ladder, I'll just talking on a Pokemon that I think that it has the potential to be really solid overall:



:ss/talonflame:
Set that I've used -> https://pokepast.es/55738a94f36392ac (spoiler alert: it's the LO Magic Guard of last gen)

Talonflame is back, and, as expected, it is both incredibly fast and powerful in this metagame; the only relevant Pokémon that it doesn't outspeed is Barraskewda, so Talonflame outspeed the likes of Noivern, Weavile, Gengar, ect, thus I feel it is somewhat difficult to revenge kill properly. In the other hand, while a 81 Base Attack doesn't sounds so threatening, after a Swords Dance boost (and the LO boost too) it hit, well, hard, see calcs below. And it can setup pretty easily a Swords Dance, with so many passive Pokémon being unable to really deny it, like Clefable, Ferrothorn, Chansey... ect. Its offense typing is another thing why I think it's so good; currently the number of Pokémon that naturally resists its double STAB is quite low, being actually limited to five viable Pokémon: Rotom-Heat and -Wash, Dracozolt, Rhydon, and Tyranitar. Though, its main checks are also bulky Water-types, like Toxapex or the newly arrival in Slowbro. Another issue to Talonflame is the possibility that Steel-types run PSea/Flash Fire to prevening him to click Flare Blitz.

Boosted calcs:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 446-526 (143.4 - 169.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 403-476 (124.7 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 526-620 (100.3 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golisopod: 421-499 (118.9 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 473-559 (135.1 - 159.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Specs Primarina)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 370-437 (91.5 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (vs non-DS/Inti Mew)

(two) Unboosted calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 330-390 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 281-331 (107.6 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I have actually a replay where Talon just sweep but replay are just down right now sadly

Also, I don't have played it by myself--only faced it-- but the Fighting/Dark Urshifu seems a huge threat to defensive and balanced builds, with the side effect of its unique move, Wicked Blow, that always do a critical hit. Basically, Wicked Blow is a consistent 120 BP Dark-type move, that ignore Dauntless Shield boosts, as well the Intimidate effect, two huge effects given how much these two abilities are popular in AAA to have a blanket checks to physical attackers. And don't forget that Urshifu has 130 in Attack, as well a acces to U-turn, boost options in Bulk Up, and a good physical Fighting STAB in Close Combat (while being relatively bulky on the physical side damnn).

Overall, this meta is really hype!
 
I don't play AAA a lot but here's a set I thought up

:kyurem:
Kyurem @ King's Rock
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Scale Shot
- Roost/Substitute

Sets up with DD and flinches and boosts speed. Substitute makes it easier to set up on things like Toxapex or Clefable, but Roost helps with longevity, especially with weakness to rocks. Struggles with Steel-types and priority users
 

GL Volkner

yes i got your letter, yes i'm doing better
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
i made an expanding force spam team. it's ok i think :) feel free to steal

Alakazam @ Twisted Spoon
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Expanding Force
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast

Wigglytuff @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Wish
- Teleport
- Stealth Rock
- Dazzling Gleam

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Expanding Force
- Scald
- Recover

Gardevoir @ Psychic Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Expanding Force
- Moonblast
- Mystical Fire

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Thunder Punch

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Rest
- Stored Power


e:
[19:43:36] ultrajimmy22: why does nothing but cancer get posted on the aaa threads
[19:43:38] ultrajimmy22: i hate these people

e2:
[19:46:10] +Thinkerino: can't use my stall team anymore bc volkner posted that LOL

e3:
[19:48:37] @ha/YlI\gh/T\eR: vd put me in an edit

e4: E4 Flint

e5:
[19:52:18] %Chazm: GL Volkner where's e5
 
Last edited:
Despite the fact that the June DLC has only been out for a few days at most, Urshifu has more than proven itself as unhealthy for the tier and is now quickbanned. This includes both the Rapid-Strike and Single-Strike forms.
1592702906040.png


Single-Strike: Aptly named, the formidable combination of fighting stab paired with a (decently high) 80 base power dark type move that always crits along with access to sucker punch overwhelms virtually every potential answer. Without Battle Armor (which is arguably not even a realistic ability to use), even "resists" find themselves getting 2hkoed by Choice Band variants with Sniper, Adaptability, or Tinted Lens.

Rapid-Strike: While it might not immediately present itself to be as daunting as its single-strike counter type, the fact that Surging Strikes not only hits three times but also boasts a respectable 75 total base power is nothing to scoff at. The story is virtually the same here, as Choice Band variants with damage amping abilities are able to completely dismantle so-called "counters", 2hkoing resists and outright killing neutral switchins.

It's also worth noting that Urshifu is by no means limited to pure damage amp. It can also make use of a Choice Scarf to become a decent revenge killer with its respectable base speed of 97, all while dealing high amounts of damage with its always-critting STABs.

In essence, Urshifu's lack of viable answers and sheer power eliminates any doubt that it should be quickbanned from the tier.

Replays:
[redacted for being overly gruesome]

Don't hesitate to contact a council member if you have any questions!

Tagging Kris The Immortal for implementation
 

GL Volkner

yes i got your letter, yes i'm doing better
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
you literally ruined my team just before it was posted on thread for 24 hours this means war. i have updated my team

Alakazam @ Twisted Spoon
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Expanding Force
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast

Wigglytuff @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Wish
- Teleport
- Stealth Rock
- Dazzling Gleam

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Expanding Force
- Scald
- Recover

Gardevoir @ Psychic Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Expanding Force
- Moonblast
- Mystical Fire

Urushifu (Heracross) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Spikes

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Rest
- Stored Power
 

Kris

joe mama
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Programmeris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Driver Alumnus
Moderator
you literally ruined my team just before it was posted on thread for 24 hours this means war. i have updated my team

Alakazam @ Twisted Spoon
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Expanding Force
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast

Wigglytuff @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Wish
- Teleport
- Stealth Rock
- Dazzling Gleam

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Expanding Force
- Scald
- Recover

Gardevoir @ Psychic Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Expanding Force
- Moonblast
- Mystical Fire

Urushifu (Heracross) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Spikes

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Rest
- Stored Power
this also ruined my dank urshifu set:

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Substitute
- Focus Energy
- Drain Punch

i am mad

(also the bans will be live sometime this week probably idk i made a pull request)
 
Despite the fact that the June DLC has only been out for a few days at most, Urshifu has more than proven itself as unhealthy for the tier and is now quickbanned. This includes both the Rapid-Strike and Single-Strike forms.
View attachment 255896

Single-Strike: Aptly named, the formidable combination of fighting stab paired with a (decently high) 80 base power dark type move that always crits along with access to sucker punch overwhelms virtually every potential answer. Without Battle Armor (which is arguably not even a realistic ability to use), even "resists" find themselves getting 2hkoed by Choice Band variants with Sniper, Adaptability, or Tinted Lens.

Rapid-Strike: While it might not immediately present itself to be as daunting as its single-strike counter type, the fact that Surging Strikes not only hits three times but also boasts a respectable 75 total base power is nothing to scoff at. The story is virtually the same here, as Choice Band variants with damage amping abilities are able to completely dismantle so-called "counters", 2hkoing resists and outright killing neutral switchins.

It's also worth noting that Urshifu is by no means limited to pure damage amp. It can also make use of a Choice Scarf to become a decent revenge killer with its respectable base speed of 97, all while dealing high amounts of damage with its always-critting STABs.

In essence, Urshifu's lack of viable answers and sheer power eliminates any doubt that it should be quickbanned from the tier.

Replays:
[redacted for being overly gruesome]

Don't hesitate to contact a council member if you have any questions!

Tagging Kris The Immortal for implementation
Yeah, I was expect this to happen, especially with Rapid Strikes as Surge Strikes is boosted by technician and Urshifu’s pretty good stats.

But it’s ability Unseen First will be great for Pokemon who commonly run contact moves, paring Metronome to remove that weakness protect reseting the boosts.
Btw, what would be a good user of Unseen Fist+Metronome?
 
Btw, what would be a good user of Unseen Fist+Metronome?
Nothing specific comes to mind, but I imagine any mon that dreads being scouted by protect (perhaps when poison heal enters the meta again post new toy syndrome of dlc) such as physical/breakers would hugely benefit from unseen fist. Also, as an alternative to metronome one could also consider [choice] band/specs/scarf, since going through protect means you can't get scouted as easily.
 
So is there a reason for Desolate Land and Primordial Sea not being banned? It seems super unhealthy to have a total unconditional immunity to a weakness that forces the opponent to need to run either Cloud Nine or Air Lock, thus wasting one of your slots, or running the other ability to counter. Considering Flash Fire and Water Absorb/Storm Drain exist, it just feels unneeded to have something that eliminates a weakness, is unaffected by Mold Breaker, is permanent weather as long as the specific mon in question is out, making certain threats so much more dangerous, and funnels teambuilding into needing one of the two to have any sort of shot at being a competitive team
 
So is there a reason for Desolate Land and Primordial Sea not being banned? It seems super unhealthy to have a total unconditional immunity to a weakness that forces the opponent to need to run either Cloud Nine or Air Lock, thus wasting one of your slots, or running the other ability to counter. Considering Flash Fire and Water Absorb/Storm Drain exist, it just feels unneeded to have something that eliminates a weakness, is unaffected by Mold Breaker, is permanent weather as long as the specific mon in question is out, making certain threats so much more dangerous, and funnels teambuilding into needing one of the two to have any sort of shot at being a competitive team
Just like with all weather conditions, Desoland Land and Promordial Sea replace each other upon switchin, naturally countering their respective opposites. Next, immunity abilities like flash fire and water absorb (both of which you mentioned yourself) serve as complete walls to the moves boosted by them, and are relatively common as decent abilities on an arguably wide variety of mons. It's also worth mentioning that unlike tinted lens, the damage amp from weather is only 1.5x, meaning that fire resists are still fire resists and water resists are still water resists, especially if they have an assault vest or physically defensive abilities like intimidate or dauntless shield. In the case of Toxapex for example, prankster gastro acid completely dismantles both weather conditions and for the most part shuts down the users as well.


and funnels teambuilding into needing one of the two to have any sort of shot at being a competitive team
I'm not the master of teambuilding, but from a competitive standpoint I don't think building with decent fire/water resists is too much to ask in an element-based game. I agree that Desolate Land and Primordial Sea are powerful abilities for sure, but there are more than enough counters to handle them while still building arguably competitive [but still fun] teams. Do you have any examples of where you've seen them go over the top?
 
:Weavile:
Weavile @ Life Orb/Wide Lens/Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Bite/Beat Up
- Ice Shard
- Knock Off/Beat Up/Swords Dance
Weavile has gained the new move, Triple Axel. Like Triple kick, this move can hit multiple times with each hit being more powerful with each hit, but each hit can miss.
This normally makes Triple Axel be effectively a BP 120 move with 72.9% accuracy (.9^3), with variance of damage when missing (kind of wish moves like Fire Blast did the same).
Thanks Triple Axel having 20 BP initially, it effectively gives Weavile a base 180 move, combined with STAB.
Between items, Life Orb boosts Triple Axel's power even more, along with its other moves. Choice Band gives Weavile even more immediate Power at the cost of not being able to switch moves. While Wide Lens increase each individual hit of Triple Axel to having 99% accuracy, and effectively 97.0299‬% accuracy (.99^3), which is probably one of the few times you'll ever use Wide Lens.
Weavile's other moves can range from Bite, a consistently strong Dark move that can Flinch, Beat Up, a multihit move that similarly can become extremely high in power thanks to Technician, Ice Shards to have a decent hitting priority, Knock Off to remove items of the opponent, and Swords Dance to boost Weavile's power even more on its moves.
 

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