LatiasDigs
formerly digitalson
glaceon is not real and idk if non-tinted garde is either
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AAA Almost Any Ability
- Thread starter Isaiah
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LatiasDigs
formerly digitalson
so dragonite
for the longest time it was considered fine partly based on the assumption that it was walled by corv
and now thats shown to not be the case except for fluffy corv if dnite doesnt run a fire move
in addition, hatterne doesnt even ohko always
252+ SpA Life Orb Triage Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 242-289 (74.9 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
this even assumes the dnite doesnt run any bulk evs which when its main attack is priority anyway it doesnt have much a reason not to
so all thats really left is physdef gargnacl, which doesnt have nearly as good abilities as spdef garg with sand stream
i guess theres tinkerton too but then you get bonked by fire punch and eq
so uh, whens the suspect/qb
for the longest time it was considered fine partly based on the assumption that it was walled by corv
and now thats shown to not be the case except for fluffy corv if dnite doesnt run a fire move
in addition, hatterne doesnt even ohko always
252+ SpA Life Orb Triage Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 242-289 (74.9 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
this even assumes the dnite doesnt run any bulk evs which when its main attack is priority anyway it doesnt have much a reason not to
so all thats really left is physdef gargnacl, which doesnt have nearly as good abilities as spdef garg with sand stream
i guess theres tinkerton too but then you get bonked by fire punch and eq
so uh, whens the suspect/qb
i dont mean for this to come off as rude, but why are you posting these calcs?
1) youve been telling us that these off-meta picks like glaceon can kill a water-dragon with freeze-dry. This is a 4x super effective move, if it wouldnt ohko i would be more than shocked to say the least. additionally, what can glaceon do apart from killing tatsugiri? if i wanted an ice type, i would take chien-pao over specs adapt glaceon.
2) it isnt meant to be checking these things. its like telling me that your ceiling fan doesnt taste like chicken. it isnt meant to taste like that at all. in this scenario, the fan is regenvest tatsugiri, the taste is checking the "chicken", which are the sets you posted. regenvest tatsugiri isnt meant to be checking hydreigon at all, so why are you telling us that it loses to hydreigon?
why is everyone running low kick nite ;-;
can yall get original smh my head
to be serious abt nite: while i do like nite as much as i want it to maybe be suspected, i feel like its lacking sometimes. in order to fully beat its checks, it needs x and y, making it a severe case of 4mss. to elaborate on the lacking part, base 100 special attack is doable, look at pult, but without specs and stab on its coverage it doesnt do as much as it wants to while keeping aerilate. in order to really beat aerilate's checks it needs to run other things like transistor or sflo to meaningfully do damage to corvi for one.
I don't believe this part to be particularly true. Just talking about mixed DNite, it can easily beat stuff like Corviknight, Dondozo, Kingambit with its coverage. FBlast comfortably 2HKO's Corviknight after Stealth Rocks (0 SpA Dragonite Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 180-212 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) and I don't need to explain what it does to Fluffy Corviknight while Thunderbolt can quickly burn through Corviknight's recover PP and win the war against it fairly easily (0 SpA Dragonite Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 146-174 (36.5 - 43.6%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery). Dragonite can even run mixed investment out of speed/bulk or Life Orb to expedite the process, if it wishes to. Really, it doesn't need to run much to beat its checks comfortably, FPunch, TPunch and Low Kick all serving to destroy checks like Corv, Garg and Kingambit while simply requiring a moveslot (interactions involving these can also just start off at +1 given how easy it is for Dragonite to force out something and grab a free +1). Of course, it obviously can't use all of these at the same time, but it does have the option to with little cost. If it's banworthy or not, depends on your view on whether this effect it has when trying to compensate for it in teambuilding is unhealthy or not. There are still fairly secure checks as well like Corv into a
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(Mini) SURVEY TIME
Now that the dust has settled a bit since our last bouts of tiering, it's time to gauge where everyone's feeling about the meta (unless we get Home within the next week...)
Please take the short tiering survey below to let us know what, if anything, you would like us to consider banning, unbanning, or suspect testing in the immediate future. It will be open until next Saturday, and if we get a sizable reaction for anything, we will go from there!
while the calcs are nice, this also assumes that the corviknight is not wbb, a set that still remains common to this day. sure tbolt hits corvi too but that means 2 of its very important slots are taken just to hit corvi. if you are running one, it becomes a coinflip if corvi is immune to the SE coverage or not. that is not to mention that on aerilate sets, extreme speed is basically a requirement. thats 2 / 4 spots. if you want to beat garganacl, low kick is needed with ddance unfort, meaning it does not have space for roost to heal off damage from sandy shocks, which needs earthquake to be ohkoed. in theory dnite hits hard with all its calcs but in the few months i experimented with dnite sets aerilate ddance / roost / extreme speed / low kick is the best set by far, being able to ohko garg with enough chip after +1 (+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 350-412 (86.6 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock ). the item slot is more flexible, i have tested covert cloak for a short while to decent success, turning garganacl, one of the best dragonite checks, into setup fodder, leftovers has been seen to outlast corviknight barring bu variants, and good old boots is always reliable. other niche sets can work however, sheer force life orb might have decent success (252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Dragonite Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl in Sand: 190-226 (47 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ) with a set of fire miss / thunder miss / focus miss / ice beam to hit other nites or roost (maybe regular espeed to feint ekiller) this is rather unpredictable due to the nature of 3/4 of the moves accuracy. transistor will always ohko corviknight but is not reliable by far
tldr: dragonite hits hard in theory but cant afford to run everything in its moveset. bait sets work sometimes
The point isn't that Dragonite can break through Corviknight consistently, the point that I was making and others, is that it can and you will need to account for this when building. WBB Corv beats Fire coverage, but loses to TBolt or just max HP DD if you're not setup and others can be smacked around with coverage without even needing to war with Roost PP. Garganacl can check TBolt but loses to Low Kick (Low Kick without DD beats SS Garg, the most common Garg by far but not too relevant as most will still run DD with it) or mentioned Covert Cloak, Sandy Shocks can be beaten by EQ or just exploited by the fact it lacks recovery. Yeah, it can't run all of these at the same time, but simply accounting for all the coverage it can run could be a massive pain in the ass. Hell, 3 attacks even is plenty viable, I've seen people run 3 attacks + Roost w/ LO that can further decimate checks and solid cores like Curse Dondozo + VA Corviknight while still not even losing out on much of what Dragonite does, spam fat +2 Aerilate ESpeeds. I'm not totally dead-set on a Dragonite QBan but accounting for DNite on any team certainly takes a lot of priority. Also, I don't think it matters much what DNite is strictly best, given they all can beat certain checks to a certain extent, and can simply be tailored to whatever checks your team wants chunked or beaten.
Not gonna defend “tatsugiri-vs-glace,” but Glaceon is real; very niche, but real nonetheless.
| 57 | Revavroom | 0.95903% | 3958 | 1.270% | 3120 | 1.311% |
| 60 | Jolteon | 0.92286% | 7409 | 2.377% | 5645 | 2.372% |
| 67 | Weavile | 0.77902% | 6594 | 2.115% | 5351 | 2.249% |
| 81 | Lycanroc | 0.37506% | 1237 | 0.397% | 994 | 0.418% |
| 82 | Staraptor | 0.35684% | 4949 | 1.588% | 3682 | 1.547% |
| 83 | Floatzel | 0.31200% | 2904 | 0.932% | 2177 | 0.915% |
| 84 | Brute Bonnet | 0.28973% | 2764 | 0.887% | 2093 | 0.879% |
| 85 | Haxorus | 0.27954% | 8095 | 2.597% | 5660 | 2.378% |
| 86 | Breloom | 0.27156% | 5679 | 1.822% | 4258 | 1.789% |
| 89 | Glaceon | 0.23677% | 1285 | 0.412% | 969 | 0.407% |
if you're prepared to defend why glaceon is real i hope you're prepared to defend why these unranked mons that have plenty more usage and viability than glaceon are real too
I would if I could, but I’m only familiar with the calcs and niche that glace can fill. Well, actually, I won’t defend breloom, since everything can run technician and spore is as good as banned.
I’d also like to be clear - I’m not saying Glace is good. It is outclassed by Chein-Pao in almost every way. I’m just saying it has a usable niche as a specially offensive ice type, especially one with access to freeze dry.
+1 252+ Atk Galvanize Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 246-290 (61.6 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Galvanize
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Spinner
- Extreme Speed
- Roost
Thinking if this set could be a viable bait set that matches up well against the rest of the meta...
+1 252+ Atk Galvanize Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kilowattrel: 266-314 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kilowattrel Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 232-274 (71.8 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This set helps it vs. a revenge-killing Kilowattrel after Rocks damage or a yolo Espeed
+1 252+ Atk Galvanize Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Adaptability Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 218-258 (67.4 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Actually able to damage Kingambit. It won't win, but it's at least not walled by it, and it's also able to run Ice Spinner to hit
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 180-214 (35 - 41.6%) -- 79.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 163-193 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Guaranteed 3HKO. Not very relevant but at least it does more damage.
This is my first post ever in a forum. I'm not amazing at this meta but I do have some experience with it. I just want to know what people in this forum think.
In hindsight, Earthquake provides better coverage against the meta honestly. But I'll post this anyway in case this popularizes Galvanize and we are able to, as a community, stop the ever-increasing spread of Corviknight.
Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Galvanize
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Spinner
- Extreme Speed
- Roost
Thinking if this set could be a viable bait set that matches up well against the rest of the meta...
+1 252+ Atk Galvanize Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kilowattrel: 266-314 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kilowattrel Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 232-274 (71.8 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This set helps it vs. a revenge-killing Kilowattrel after Rocks damage or a yolo Espeed
+1 252+ Atk Galvanize Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Adaptability Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 218-258 (67.4 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Actually able to damage Kingambit. It won't win, but it's at least not walled by it, and it's also able to run Ice Spinner to hit
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 180-214 (35 - 41.6%) -- 79.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 163-193 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Guaranteed 3HKO. Not very relevant but at least it does more damage.
This is my first post ever in a forum. I'm not amazing at this meta but I do have some experience with it. I just want to know what people in this forum think.
In hindsight, Earthquake provides better coverage against the meta honestly. But I'll post this anyway in case this popularizes Galvanize and we are able to, as a community, stop the ever-increasing spread of Corviknight.
as the posts above have talked about low kick may be good since low kick has 120bp vs ting-lu doing more damage,
252+ Atk Dragonite Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 182-216 (35.4 - 42%) -- 86% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and also
252+ Atk Dragonite Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Kingambit: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
also this will likely make volt absorb corv more popular and you are completely walled if running dragon dance roost extreme speed earthquake.
but fun set.
honestly I like volt absorb corviknight as my preferred set. Corv barely cares about Will-o and there's several PrimSea users to wall things like Iron Moth. The reason I like VA Corv is because it blocks VoltTurn spam, taking nothing from U-turn. VA also punishes Treads for spinning rocks away, because it might get healed with Volt Switch with surprise factor, letting Corv uturn into a sweeping teammate. VA also hard-wallls Sandy SHocks and checks PrimSea Kilowattrel.
I don’t think you should be using any corv to check wattrel; weather ball still hits for a ton. Spdef corv maybe, but you’re better off relying on other mons for it.
Not saying you should, thats why I called it a 'check' and not a 'counter'
For example, you can safely switch into Specs-locked Volt Switch to U-Turn out into a teammate. If it stays in, you can switch into a ground type. If it switches, you can set up a sweeper. You can even go for some chip with Body Press, since there's nothing it can really do.
Other than that, yeah, bring other Kilowattrel checks
LatiasDigs
formerly digitalson
dnite already beats corv with aerialate, galvanize isnt really helping here
isnt aerialate resisted? dnite takes a ton from brave bird, its not like it sets up for free if its damaged
aerilate nite can fit in some form of coverage to beat corvi, usually fire blast but the elemental punches can be experimented with
Grim_Blazer
Banned deucer.
Just use tbolt dnite lol
I- why are we banning Dragonite, you know what never mind. Here are some gimmick sets and then I'll get onto my weather and terrain scrambles later.
Why Kilowattrel is literally the worst pokemon compared to Zapdos at literally everything it does it still gets the moves-
Stockpiles and friends, and uhhhh Uproar? It gets Wild Charge... I tried brainstorming but yeah no this thing can't do anything but go past a higher speed tier than Zapdos...
Other means, however, Last Respects Greavard? Sticky Web Users? Ooh, Spidops!
Spidops does have terrible base stats and loses to anything with a super effective move but eh utility is amazing
Spidops gets Memento, Silk Trap, String Shot, Sticky Web, Circle Throw so you don't get set up sweeped, Toxic Spikes and Spikes, Taunt, Lunge and Pounce, Thief, U-Turn, Struggle Bug, Gastro Acid, Counter, and First Impression for some priority for Sash Users. It's such a customizable pokemon it's hard to miss out on.
As mentioned below I tested this set at the beginning of the meta and hated it immensely.
Armarouge @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Terrain
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Expanding Force
- Armor Cannon
- Energy Ball / Aura Sphere
- Destiny Bond / Trick
With the Bans of Fluttermane, Iron Bundle, Noivern, Valiant, and Dragapult most things that could threaten K.O even with Scarf the users that can outspeed and kill would be Meowscarda, Chien Pao, and Greninja. The Ladder can only kill if it has a modest nature. With Timid it's 409 without 373.
You know... We're stuck with Armarouge because Azelf is coming in WITHOUT E FORCE. Anyways, what is Dragonite gonna do? Run Earthquake? Haha...
Why Kilowattrel is literally the worst pokemon compared to Zapdos at literally everything it does it still gets the moves-
Stockpiles and friends, and uhhhh Uproar? It gets Wild Charge... I tried brainstorming but yeah no this thing can't do anything but go past a higher speed tier than Zapdos...
Other means, however, Last Respects Greavard? Sticky Web Users? Ooh, Spidops!
Spidops does have terrible base stats and loses to anything with a super effective move but eh utility is amazing
Spidops gets Memento, Silk Trap, String Shot, Sticky Web, Circle Throw so you don't get set up sweeped, Toxic Spikes and Spikes, Taunt, Lunge and Pounce, Thief, U-Turn, Struggle Bug, Gastro Acid, Counter, and First Impression for some priority for Sash Users. It's such a customizable pokemon it's hard to miss out on.
As mentioned below I tested this set at the beginning of the meta and hated it immensely.
Armarouge @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Terrain
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Expanding Force
- Armor Cannon
- Energy Ball / Aura Sphere
- Destiny Bond / Trick
With the Bans of Fluttermane, Iron Bundle, Noivern, Valiant, and Dragapult most things that could threaten K.O even with Scarf the users that can outspeed and kill would be Meowscarda, Chien Pao, and Greninja. The Ladder can only kill if it has a modest nature. With Timid it's 409 without 373.
You know... We're stuck with Armarouge because Azelf is coming in WITHOUT E FORCE. Anyways, what is Dragonite gonna do? Run Earthquake? Haha...
its said that it can't kill a full hp no bulk invested dragonite without a boosting item.
252+ SpA Armarouge Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite in Psychic Terrain: 271-321 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armarouge: 366-432 (97.8 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
but it does effectively kill dragonite with it being at low hp without espeed.
The main problem with dragonite i think is that it can beat almost any of its checks if it has the right coverage move.
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So Uhhhhh, that was a joke... I did in fact do the calc...
I mean... Dragonite has been voted like 20 times over and been into, but ya know I don't see it as something that is plainly uncompetitive...
(I swear to god if someone says That was before XXX was banned, also I've been seeing the forums develop into chaos sooooo no...)
Due to very clear consensus from council, I'm going to drop the survey results [so far] on Shed Tail and Dragonite early! So far, we've gotten a whopping 81 responses :D
56.8% of respondents were explicitly in support of tiering action on Dragonite, which is unsurprising since Dragonite is certainly a contentious topic in the metagame (see: all of the recent posts in this thread). Seeing this, the council voted on whether or not to suspect test Dragonite, which ended in a unanimous 7-0 in support. For more information on that, check out the suspect test thread.
38.3% of respondents were explicitly in support of tiering action on Shed Tail. This is a stark contrast to how the most recent council vote turned out:
With this,
Shed Tail is now banned from AAA. Tagging Kris for implementation.
Shed Tail as used by Orthworm and Cyclizar, its only setters, empowered already-powerful threats like Hadron Engine Iron Moth to wreak even more havoc on opposing teams with the free turn(s) granted by Substitute. While it was certainly possible to counter lead such teams or just use extremely powerful attacks, this could often be circumvented by keeping the Shed Tail user in the back and capitalizing on defensive Pokemon like Corviknight and Garganacl after they were forced in by the Shed Tail team's strong attackers.
What about the rest of the survey?
Since the other elements of the survey aren't super pressing, the survey will remain open until Saturday (as originally planned) and another results post will go up then :P
56.8% of respondents were explicitly in support of tiering action on Dragonite, which is unsurprising since Dragonite is certainly a contentious topic in the metagame (see: all of the recent posts in this thread). Seeing this, the council voted on whether or not to suspect test Dragonite, which ended in a unanimous 7-0 in support. For more information on that, check out the suspect test thread.
38.3% of respondents were explicitly in support of tiering action on Shed Tail. This is a stark contrast to how the most recent council vote turned out:
| Isaiah | UT | QT | Jrdn | DFM | LordBox | RESULT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| QUICK ban Shed Tail? | BAN | DNB | BAN | BAN | BAN | BAN | 6-1 BAN |
With this,
Shed Tail is now banned from AAA. Tagging Kris for implementation.Shed Tail as used by Orthworm and Cyclizar, its only setters, empowered already-powerful threats like Hadron Engine Iron Moth to wreak even more havoc on opposing teams with the free turn(s) granted by Substitute. While it was certainly possible to counter lead such teams or just use extremely powerful attacks, this could often be circumvented by keeping the Shed Tail user in the back and capitalizing on defensive Pokemon like Corviknight and Garganacl after they were forced in by the Shed Tail team's strong attackers.
What about the rest of the survey?
Since the other elements of the survey aren't super pressing, the survey will remain open until Saturday (as originally planned) and another results post will go up then :P
i can't read sarcasm to save save my life sorry.