Proposal Amending SVOU's Sleep Move Ban

[Stories]

I've been struggling to put into words my feelings about the Sleep Move ban in SVOU. Overall I think it was a great and admittedly long overdue change that has improved the health of OU. My only gripe regarding this ban is a few small oversights, many of which aren't necessarily relevant in OU, but seeing as this rule affects EVERY tier I think it's only fitting to consider them.

RE: Yawn

Yawn is a very unique move with qualities that sets it apart from other sleep inducements, which makes it deserve its own assessment. Functionally speaking, Yawn is more of a phazing move than a volatile status inducer like Spore or Hypnosis. Because of it's two-turn nature, making the opponent drowsy rather than directly putting it to sleep, it is historically never used on offensive Pokemon, often being used on defensive pieces akin to Clodsire, Sylveon, or Houndstone in their respective tiers as a way to offset their passivity via 'forcing' switches with the fear of sleep. Although there were multiple factors contributed to sleep being banned, such as the volatility and impact of turns spent asleep, it's undeniable the influence offensive Pokemon like Iron Valiant, Hisuian Lilligant, and Darkrai had on the sleep ban, as they could completely flip games in a few turns with sleep removing their would-be checks. Offensively speaking, sleep moves are virtual OHKO moves that had no place in the metagame, and I'm not here to deny that, but in terms of defensive uses of sleep moves I think things are quite different. Yawn at worst is simply a nuisance used by defensive Pokemon to keep their opponent from getting too comfortable, Spore from Amoonguss and even Hypnosis from Alolan Ninetales appeared to be far less contentious presences in the metagame due to them not having such potent offenses to back them up.

RE: Effect Spore and Friends

This is a lot simpler. Effect Spore, Dire Claw, and Relic Song (might be missing something else) can inflict sleep. There is no sleep clause mod, they inflict sleep, please ban these. Too many times do I get two Pokemon slept by Effect Spore and suddenly I've been hit by two of these 'virtual OHKOs' without my opponent even using a move.

 

[Karxrida]

Yawn should stay banned unless you wanna do some Gen 2 Sleep Trapping clause BS because you know people will start abusing that (especially with Tera enabling shenanigans). I counted at least 5 Pokémon that learn Yawn and a trapping move, and yes several of them are OU viable. One of them is Glowking. :^)

Effect Spore should probably be banned. You'd only run it specifically for the hax.

Dire Claw is only available on a banned Pokémon so that's for Ubers to deal with. (Smeargle is probably not going to abuse it to any notable extent.) Seems pointless to ban to me.

Relic Song's such a bad gimmick that it can actively hinder Meoletta. That also seems pointless to me.

 

[R8]

RE: Effect Spore and Friends

This is a lot simpler. Effect Spore, Dire Claw, and Relic Song (might be missing something else) can inflict sleep. There is no sleep clause mod, they inflict sleep, please ban these. Too many times do I get two Pokemon slept by Effect Spore and suddenly I've been hit by two of these 'virtual OHKOs' without my opponent even using a move.

So this is moreso an open question i think should be addressed in this thread rather than a point i'd be trying to make: isn't the problem with sleep mostly sleep inducing moves in particular, rather than sleep as a whole? Would Sleep Clause have existed if the only ways to inflicting it were the things mentioned above?

If we take the example of Relic Song for example, what makes this move any more game breaking than for example any ice move that has a 10% chance to freeze the opponent? Effect Spore does have a small chance to send two opponents to sleep with a considerable amount of luck, sure, but can't you get in much more considerable trouble against static with the same "amount" of luck, considering static + fp chances are much likelier to happen than an effect spore proc + long sleep? Dire Claw is admittedly it's own can of worms, but taken in isolation i imagine it's not that much of a pressing issue anyway since its only viable user got banned from the format it was used in, and if i remember correctly it preferred using Gunk Shot anyway.

To be super clear, i don't really have strong opinions on this, but i still do believe those are very important questions that must be answered before any action is taken on these.

 

[Stories]

So this is moreso an open question i think should be addressed in this thread rather than a point i'd be trying to make: isn't the problem with sleep mostly sleep inducing moves in particular, rather than sleep as a whole? Would Sleep Clause have existed if the only ways to inflicting it were the things mentioned above?

If we take the example of Relic Song for example, what makes this move any more gamebreaking than for example any ice move that has a 10% chance to freeze the opponent? Effect Spore does have a small chance to send two opponents to sleep with a considerable amount of luck, sure, but can't you get in much more considerable trouble against static with the same "amount" of luck, considering static + fp chances are much likelier to happen than an effect spore proc + long sleep? Dire Claw is admittedly it's own can of worms, but taken in isolation i imagine it's not that much of a pressing issue anyway since it's only viable user got banned from the format it was used in, and if i remember correctly it preferred using Gunk Shot anyway.

To be super clear, i don't really have strong opinions on this, but i still do believe those are very important questions that must be answered before any action is taken on these.

to be clear the main purpose of this thread is to address Yawn, but I think sleep if all sleep inducers are to be banned it only makes sense to include Effect Spore

 

[Ruft]

Keep in mind that part of the implementation of the sleep move ban was the removal of sleep clause. If we were to unban Yawn, it wouldn't be the same as it was before, and I don't think Yawn without sleep clause is something we should be unbanning. We actually had a short discussion on this in the OU council chat before we decided to add it to the list of banned sleep moves. The defensive pieces you mentioned could spam Yawn with hazards up to essentially force sleep, since it's not like other phazing moves where you can attack the Pokemon that is spamming the phazing move because that would make your Pokemon fall asleep. And without sleep clause, it doesn't end with one sleep fodder.

With regards to Effect Spore, Dire Claw, and Relic Song, I think action on these things should only be taken if they are actually problematic/abused. The most problematic sleep users were things like Hypnosis Darkrai and Iron Valiant generating free turns, which led to the sleep moves ban, but I'm not sure if something like an Effect Spore user is as problematic. If these things were found to be problematic/abused in an official tier, then sure, they could be banned, but I have personally not found this to be the case as a player of SV OU (post-Sneasler ban).

 

[Stories]

Keep in mind that part of the implementation of the sleep move ban was the removal of sleep clause. If we were to unban Yawn, it wouldn't be the same as it was before, and I don't think Yawn without sleep clause is something we should be unbanning. We actually had a short discussion on this in the OU council chat before we decided to add it to the list of banned sleep moves. The defensive pieces you mentioned could spam Yawn with hazards up to essentially force sleep, since it's not like other phazing moves where you can attack the Pokemon that is spamming the phazing move because that would make your Pokemon fall asleep. And without sleep clause, it doesn't end with one sleep fodder.

With regards to Effect Spore, Dire Claw, and Relic Song, I think action on these things should only be taken if they are actually problematic/abused. The most problematic sleep users were things like Hypnosis Darkrai and Iron Valiant generating free turns, which led to the sleep moves ban, but I'm not sure if something like an Effect Spore user is as problematic. If these things were found to be problematic/abused in an official tier, then sure, they could be banned, but I have personally not found this to be the case as a player of SV OU (post-Sneasler ban).

is it not possible to disallow the use of Yawn if an opponent is already asleep? then just accept the fringe cases presented by Encore / Choice Items / etc..

 

[lydian]

is it not possible to disallow the use of Yawn if an opponent is already asleep? then just accept the fringe cases presented by Encore / Choice Items / etc..

at that point you're just going back to sleep clause... no? which defeats the point

 

[Stories]

at that point you're just going back to sleep clause... no? which defeats the point

sleep clause cancels a sleep move if it is used while something else is sleeping, that is not cart replicable, while completely not allowing the move to be clicked in the first place is completely doable

 

[lydian]

sleep clause cancels a sleep move if it is used while something else is sleeping, that is not cart replicable, while completely not allowing the move to be clicked in the first place is completely doable

yes but this is still a form of sleep clause. this has been proposed numerous times while sleep clause was the status quo and never been approved as far as i'm aware because you have so many exceptions to work out... and even if you did do that, you can just free all sleep moves then following that logic, not just yawn, hence my original post

 

[Merritt]

sleep clause cancels a sleep move if it is used while something else is sleeping, that is not cart replicable, while completely not allowing the move to be clicked in the first place is completely doable

Adding a battle mod (greying out the Encore button under specific conditions, unless we're going the "add another win condition to the game" route that came up in some of the Sleep Clause discussions) in order to unban one move sounds like a non-starter. Even the various Baton Pass clauses were at least teambuilder level bans, rather than in battle mods.

 

[BigFatMantis]

From what I understand, greying out moves to make them not clickable, and also lose conditions, are not on the table for stuff like this. So, it's either you allow Yawn back in with no clause as is, or you keep it banned. I don't really care either way which is decided, but greying out moves is not something that would be considered to my understanding.

 

[Stories]

Is yawn without a clause still not worth looking into? At the very least I wanted to spark a conversation about it because I think it's very clearly not in the same realm as something like Spore or Hypnosis.

in order to unban one move

I feel like selling the fact that it's only for one move is a bit disingenuous given how both unique this move is and how integral it was to some metagames that had the move stripped from them. If it's a healthy aspect of a metagame (I think it was) then it should be worth at least exploring the possibility of preserving it.

 

[Karxrida]

What metas was it an integral part of? Certainly not OU. The burden of proof is on you here, and you're not providing anything of substance to justify a Yawn unban other than hypotheticals and vibes.

 

[Stories]

What metas was it an integral part of? Certainly not OU. The burden of proof is on you here, and you're not providing anything of substance to justify a Yawn unban other than hypotheticals and vibes.

It was a very common move in lower tiers for its utility, I don't really see the use in just listing Pokemon that learn the move, that doesn't really mean anything to any outsider. Perhaps 'integral' is overselling things but I know many Pokemon that took a hit in viability from the sleep ban.

 

[Karxrida]

It was a very common move in lower tiers for its utility, I don't really see the use in just listing Pokemon that learn the move, that doesn't really mean anything to any outsider. Perhaps 'integral' is overselling things but I know many Pokemon that took a hit in viability from the sleep ban.

Considering you're trying to appeal for a sitewide policy change, actually explaining the importance of Yawn in lower tiers and for the viability of specific Pokémon or checking threats in detail and not just a single sentence would go a long way to help your argument.

Also, normal phazing moves still exist. They tend to have decent distribution -- Roar is a TM. Are lower tiers that hard up for phazing with Yawn gone, or have issues with Soundproof absuers?

 

[Aberforth]

I'm going to interject and say that we're not going to re-add sleep clause mod for the sake of Yawn. If Yawn is to be unbanned, it will be without sleep clause entirely. Arguing about reimplementing sleep clause for specifically Yawn is a complete non-starter.

 

[Stories]

Considering you're trying to appeal for a sitewide policy change, actually explaining the importance of Yawn in lower tiers and for the viability of specific Pokémon or checking threats in detail and not just a single sentence would go a long way to help your argument.

Also, normal phazing moves still exist. They tend to have decent distribution -- Roar is a TM. Are lower tiers that hard up for phazing with Yawn gone, or have issues with Soundproof absuers?

So I play NU the most, I'll talk about that then

Yawners

The comparison to Roar is like.. sure? They both phase but Yawn actually threatens the target while Roar just switches them out so they can just setup later. Lots of Pokemon still lost Roar like Arcanine too

 

[FayaWizard]

We've talked about this before in Smogcord, but I really don't think unbanning Yawn would be healthy for SV OU, at the very least. Galarian Slowking can comfortably run it and spam it on switch-ins, causing scenarios where you're forced to either sacrifice a Pokemon to sleep in order to fire off a move (and you have no guarantee of Gking staying in), or switching out and letting Gking fire off a Future Sight/Sludge Bomb for free, pivot out and send in a favorable matchup, or even just fire off another Yawn and repeat the process. Sure, there are a few Pokemon that can switch into Yawn (Gliscor, Garganacl, and Gholdengo), but they are nowhere near omnipresent.

I cannot speak for lower tiers as I do not play them, but I oppose reintroducing this into OU, at the very least.

 

[Stories]

We've talked about this before in Smogcord, but I really don't think unbanning Yawn would be healthy for SV OU, at the very least. Galarian Slowking can comfortably run it and spam it on switch-ins, causing scenarios where you're forced to either sacrifice a Pokemon to sleep in order to fire off a move (and you have no guarantee of Gking staying in), or switching out and letting Gking fire off a Future Sight/Sludge Bomb for free, pivot out and send in a favorable matchup, or even just fire off another Yawn and repeat the process. Sure, there are a few Pokemon that can switch into Yawn (Gliscor, Garganacl, and Gholdengo), but they are nowhere near omnipresent.

I cannot speak for lower tiers as I do not play them, but I oppose reintroducing this into OU, at the very least.

yeah this is a pretty valid concern especially for OU and without any kind of sleep restriction but at the very least I just wanted to discuss that kind of thing

 

[Drifting]

I try to avoid getting tangled in tiering policy minutiae as much as I can (as should everyone), but is there anything to say for the idea of Yawn being exempt from the clause due to not inflicting sleep, but rather inflicting the volatile status condition of Drowsy? I imagine this difference is the source of most of the belly-aching people have had about Yawn being thrown out with the bathwater.

 

[Stories]

I try to avoid getting tangled in tiering policy minutiae as much as I can (as should everyone), but is there anything to say for the idea of Yawn being exempt from the clause due to not inflicting sleep, but rather inflicting the volatile status condition of Drowsy? I imagine this difference is the source of most of the belly-aching people have had about Yawn being thrown out with the bathwater.

are you suggesting something? I don't think I understand :c but yeah the reason for this thread is that discerning characteristic makes me think Yawn deserves its own discussion

 

[Drifting]

are you suggesting something? I don't think I understand :c but yeah the reason for this thread is that discerning characteristic makes me think Yawn deserves its own discussion

I'm suggesting that Yawn may fall under a technicality due to not actually inflicting the status condition of Sleep, differentiating it from every other move included in the sleep ban.

 

[Karxrida]

I try to avoid getting tangled in tiering policy minutiae as much as I can (as should everyone), but is there anything to say for the idea of Yawn being exempt from the clause due to not inflicting sleep, but rather inflicting the volatile status condition of Drowsy? I imagine this difference is the source of most of the belly-aching people have had about Yawn being thrown out with the bathwater.

"It doesn't inflict Sleep it inflicts drowsiness" is at best pedantry and at worst a severe case of cognitive dissonance. It still inflicts Sleep after the second turn. That is the ultimate intent of the move.

 

[Stories]

"It doesn't inflict Sleep it inflicts drowsiness" is at best pedantry and at worst a severe case of cognitive dissonance. It still inflicts Sleep after the second turn. That is the intent of the move.

not sure why the hostility but the fact that you have a turn before you go to sleep means the target is in fact in control of whether or not they fall asleep or not, meanwhile other sleep moves give no such luxury

 

[Karxrida]

not sure why the hostility but the fact that you have a turn before you go to sleep means the target is in fact in control of whether or not they fall asleep or not, meanwhile other sleep moves give no such luxury

I did not mean to come off as hostile so much as blunt.

And all Sleep moves have some sort of downside, whether it be low accuracy or a whole type immune to Spore. Yawn's is the status being delayed a turn. A player about to be hit with a Sleep move typically has a choice of gambling with that low accuracy (or another prediction like a double switch I guess), throwing a Grass-type out if they have one, or sacking something. Yawn's answer is entirely dependent on the ability to switch, which can very well be denied by trapping moves.