American Politics

You guys need to actually read and think about posts that are longer than tweets. It’s really not that difficult.

In what universe is trying to advocate for a more permanent solution to poverty and minimum wage hating poor people? That is idiotic plain and simple. If you read my original post, you would even see that I was making the case that the minimum wage for certain states should be higher than 15 and hour.

I think it’s telling that Nui is a discord leader. They fit the discord mod stereotype to aT.
The idea behind nui's post is that whatever discussion about the more long term aspects of solving poverty should take place after $15/hour wage is established and that $15/hour min wage should be established immediately because the situation is dire enough and honestly has been for many Americans even before the nightmare of a pandemic happened.

I would agree that in an ideal world we'd have a 50 step plan to solving poverty and the political willpower to make them happen in a timely fashion, but we live in a not ideal world where we have neither. Wages have not been raised federally since 2009 and it's definitely in part because of politicians bringing up the same issues that you are (this isn't a permanent solution, we need a better plan etc ec). You might be saying them in good faith, but bad actors have used the same arguments to stall something that has been vitally needed for over a decade, which is why your position has been (perhaps abruptly) conflated with hating poor people.
 
yeah the point of people bringing up $15 minimum wage here is that it was a promised bare minimum action that biden is not following through on. when you reply to that by saying 'oh but there are better solutions anyway,' it comes off as dismissive of the legitimate frustrations people have.

it's like if i promised my mother i would wash the dishes, but then i never did it. if she got upset about that, it would be dismissive, not helpful, to say 'well just get a dishwasher.'
 
I'm not involved in american politics that much since I'm brazilian and I already have to deal with the pestilence that is Bolsonaro but I though people were "going to make biden's life hell" or something. Not defend American bombings.

I'm manifesting that 15$ wage for yall though, hoping it actually passes, along with the stimulus check, and as soon as possible.
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Yeah my bad, Democrats out here doing the important things like bombing foreign countries and opening new detention centers for immigrant minors. I’m sure once they’ve finished all the high priority stuff they’ll get together and make something happen for COVID prevention and the myriad immediate problems it has created and is still creating.
 
It truly says something about the state of the thread when a post like this somehow gets five likes
where is the lie? trump gave $1800 to everyone and $600 a week unemployment. biden MIGHT give $1400, reduced for those who made 75k a year before the pandemic, and is already shaving the proposed $400 unemployment a week down to $300.

Trump's response was woefully inadequate but Biden is already committing to doing even less.

Yeah my bad, Democrats out here doing the important things like bombing foreign countries and opening new detention centers for immigrant minors. I’m sure once they’ve finished all the high priority stuff they’ll get together and make something happen for COVID prevention and the myriad immediate problems it has created and is still creating.
Let's not forget how much harder Biden has gone to bat for fucking Neera Tanden than fighting for $15 (by 2025 lmaooooo)
 
where is the lie? trump gave $1800 to everyone and $600 a week unemployment. biden MIGHT give $1400, reduced for those who made 75k a year before the pandemic, and is already shaving the proposed $400 unemployment a week down to $300.
Yeah, when Biden starts holding superspreader rallies and encourages his followers to not wear masks, I'll admit you are right. The comparison is faulty anyway as you are comparing 1800 in 11 months to 1400 in around 2 months.
 
Yeah, when Biden starts holding superspreader rallies and encourages his followers to not wear masks, I'll admit you are right. The comparison is faulty anyway as you are comparing 1800 in 11 months to 1400 in around 2 months.
Additionally the amount granted is only partially determined by the president (or not at all in some cases). These bills are written by Congress and must pass multiple votes and checks to get anywhere. This applies to stimulus, minimum wage, college debt forgiveness, and all the other things people on this forum are blaming Biden for when it's literally not within his power to do unless Congress and the Judicial branch allows him to. Actually passing something like a minimum wage law requires the support of all Democrats in Congress and likely many Republicans which is obviously not an easy thing to do.

Let's not forget how much harder Biden has gone to bat for fucking Neera Tanden than fighting for $15 (by 2025 lmaooooo)
15 min wage isn't going to happen overnight. Flipping a switch to double the min wage in a day is ridiculous and no one ever proposed such an economically stupid decision. Before you blame "15 by 2025" on Biden, it was actually Bernie Sanders who, as he would say, "wrote the damn bill". Like Sanders proposed it needs to be done gradually, especially in a fragile COVID economy.
 
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Hipmonlee

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Flipping a switch to double the min wage is ridiculous and no one ever proposed such an economically stupid decision.
What are you even protecting right now? What do you think is the worst that could happen, right now, if you doubled the minimum wage?

Imagine if a bunch of minimum wage workers all lost their jobs and couldnt go to work and just stayed at home instead. How could the economy possibly handle such an event? The government might have to give people stimulus cheques or something?

[edit] - sorry this post was unnecessarily harsh. I've been pretty much exactly where you are too. Your whole life everyone tells you neoliberalism is the scientific, proven solution to economics, but it's all built on a foundation of pure ideology. It's nonsense. Raising the minimum wage is a risk, it will hurt certain people in the economy. But its not nearly as risky as leaving it where it is.
 
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What are you even protecting right now? What do you think is the worst that could happen, right now, if you doubled the minimum wage?

Imagine if a bunch of minimum wage workers all lost their jobs and couldnt go to work and just stayed at home instead. How could the economy possibly handle such an event? The government might have to give people stimulus cheques or something?
Small businesses dying en mass and large companies like Walmart, Amazon etc slurping up what little market share they don't already own. Do it gradually over a few years like Bernie said we should and this effect will be negated, but system shock the country overnight and smaller businesses won't have the ability to adapt. Doing it at a time when all businesses are struggling due to Covid is even more mind bogglingly economically suicidal.

Edit: Also yes having millions of people go on unemployment overnight isn't an optimal scenario either, and will be used for decades against us whenever additional minimum wage increases are proposed. There are lots of high state level min wage increases that are 12 or higher and they all generally are implemented gradually. That's just... how these things work. Doing it overnight is ridiculous and not even the most liberal of liberals in Washington want this.

Edit 2:

[edit] - sorry this post was unnecessarily harsh. I've been pretty much exactly where you are too. Your whole life everyone tells you neoliberalism is the scientific, proven solution to economics, but it's all built on a foundation of pure ideology. It's nonsense. Raising the minimum wage is a risk, it will hurt certain people in the economy. But its not nearly as risky as leaving it where it is.
I'm not saying it should stay where it is, I'm supporting the proposed solution to increase it to ~10 this year and add a dollar every year after until it hits 15. If the economy was is a good place sure, drop the 13-15 bomb now and work with it. But we're in a covid economy and a lot of businesses are clinging to life and snapping it to 15 will kill many of them for good. Yes businesses will replace the dead ones but this will generally happen via bigger companies buying them out.

Edit 3: I'm a far left liberal on the same team as Sanders / AOC etc rofl not a neoliberalist. I'm just not having a meltdown because Biden, Congress, and the US in general isn't as far left as I want. But I'm happy to accept a change from Trump to Biden that pushes the country closer to the goals I want, European style capitalism with a strong safety net, which I guess Bernie calls Democratic Socialism.
 
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Hipmonlee

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Honestly, the basis for thinking either of those bad scenarios will happen is incredibly tenuous. But what I can assure you will definitely happen is people on the minimum wage will be paid more. And then their landlords will put up their rent... But they will be, on the whole, better off, regardless.

I'm just not having a meltdown because Biden, Congress, and the US in general isn't as far left as I want.
But this is the part where I think youre wrong. If Biden is not as far left as you want, then you need to apply pressure in any way you can. Cause he doesnt want to help you. And even if he did, he needs the support of the rest of the democrats, and they dont want to help you either.

So at the very least send a half assed letter to your representatives. And if you can donate to ACLU or something (I dont know what exists and is worth supporting in the USA).

Because you still have concentration camps at your border. Do something about it.
 
Honestly, the basis for thinking either of those bad scenarios will happen is incredibly tenuous. But what I can assure you will definitely happen is people on the minimum wage will be paid more. And then their landlords will put up their rent... But they will be, on the whole, better off, regardless.
Many small businesses are dependent on govt assistance to survive, or have otherwise already gone out of business due to COVID. Doubling the minimum wage will help a lot of people and should be done, but the difference is flipping the switch to 15 overnight is suicide, while a gradual increase over a few years will have the same effect with much less economic damage to companies not named Walmart. This isn't my opinion, it's literally Bernie Sanders own bill.

But this is the part where I think youre wrong. If Biden is not as far left as you want, then you need to apply pressure in any way you can. Cause he doesnt want to help you. And even if he did, he needs the support of the rest of the democrats, and they dont want to help you either.

So at the very least send a half assed letter to your representatives. And if you can donate to ACLU or something (I dont know what exists and is worth supporting in the USA).
Actually Biden is exactly what we need. Progress takes time. Biden is having enough trouble rounding up support for $15 from just the Democrats. What, you think Bernie Sanders was going to do better? Do people actually think he would ever get Medicare for All passed, or the new Green Deal? All his ideas would be torn to ribbons by Congress. Obamacare would look bipartisan by comparison.

I'd rather have a "moderate" Biden bridge that gap and actually do what he wants to do. Maybe in a few years as Congress gradually gets newer, younger, more left members we'll have a political climate where a true Bernie-esq President will be useful. But at the moment you have to accept that Bernie / AOC politics ARE in the minority regardless of what /r/politics says. 15 an hour min wage, college debt relief, free 2 years of community college, immigration changes, and some healthcare reform are all things Biden campaigned on and still openly supports and if he can get some of these through Congress I'll consider his presidency a wild success. But getting judgmental less than two months into his presidency is unfair.

Cause he doesnt want to help you.
Uhh, citation needed? Obviously Biden doesn't give a shit about me personally. I don't care about him either. But as far as I've seen he's been signing bills and more or less doing exactly what he promised to. If Congress is resisting that isn't his fault, and they should be the ones to blame.

Because you still have concentration camps at your border. Do something about it.
Biden has to wait on Congress to act. There's a lot of proposed changes to US immigration by both Biden and Congress. Again, change takes time especially when we're talking about changes to law. But that said he did sign several Executive Orders to shut those camps down as well as several EOs to reverse Trump anti-immigration declarations. Biden has been president for fewer months than the average person has nipples. Calm down.
 
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Hipmonlee

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but the difference is flipping the switch to 15 overnight is suicide, while a gradual increase over a few years will have the same effect with much less economic damage to companies not named Walmart.
It wont.
Progress takes time.
It doesnt.
But getting judgmental less than two months into his presidency is unfair.
It isnt.

And it seems like you missed the point of my post. You need to demand better, not just to make Biden do the shit that he promised, but also to get congress and the senate to do the shit that Biden promised. This would be the same if Bernie was President, or if I were president.
 
Do you have any examples of minimum wage doubling during a pandemic where the economy is on its knees in recent times? Because you aren't giving examples, you're just saying "nu uh". Sorry but if even Bernie Sanders supports a gradual increase then I don't know what to tell you. You're wrong. But the vaccines are being distributed and economy will start booming as it recovers. THAT is the time for sweeping reform, not when the average business owner is barely holding on.

It doesnt.
It does. Trump got 70 million votes and if he didn't deal with Covid like a fool he'd probably win another 4 years. Biden barely won several key states by a few thousand. Being left leaning in general is barely more popular than right, and extreme left is in the minority. Bernie's ideas are brilliant but not as popular in the US as we need for him (or someone like him) to either get president or accomplish anything in office unless Congress is equally left.

It is when the guy in question is doing exactly what we voted him into office to do. Congress on the other hand is in the middle of working on bills for him to sign to make those things happen, or is dragging its feet due to partisan or bipartisan disagreements.

If you don't like it YOU can write to your congressmen / representatives and try to vote someone else in when 2022 / 2024 comes around. But knee jerk blaming Biden for something he didn't do is shitty especially when the guys in Congress are getting away with not doing what we want. Too many people use the president as a scapegoat for their problems. Biden / the President isn't king of America, they're just part of the Executive branch who has to deal with the other two. As far as I can see Biden has been doing pretty much exactly what he promised to.

And it seems like you missed the point of my post. You need to demand better, not just to make Biden do the shit that he promised, but also to get congress and the senate to do the shit that Biden promised. This would be the same if Bernie was President, or if I were president.
There is no point to your post except "nu uh, democrats bad". Sorry but at this time there is no viable Bernie / AOC party, as much as I would like there to be. Instead we have the Democrats who are, at this moment, more far left then they have ever been. Maybe depending on who runs for Dems / Rep in 2024 we might have a chance to get a really left leaning president / congress. Maybe in 2022 we'll get some new congressmen as well.

Biden isn't the end goal, he's a stepping stone towards what we want. If Biden's policies are successful (and they should be, since there's plenty of real world examples of literally everything he campaigned on working) it will pave the way to more left leaning ideas gaining popularity. But just screeching BERNIE OR BUST doesn't help or realistically take into account the political situation in the US.

or if I were president.
I would support this if for no other reason than to see how the Republicans try to turn competitive Pokémon into propaganda.
 

Hipmonlee

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Do you have any examples of minimum wage doubling during a pandemic where the economy is on its knees in recent times? Because you aren't giving examples, you're just saying "nu uh". Sorry but if even Bernie Sanders supports a gradual increase then I don't know what to tell you. You're wrong. But the vaccines are being distributed and economy will start booming as it recovers. THAT is the time for sweeping reform, not when the average business owner is barely holding on.
Do you have a counter example? It seems to me we both have the same amount of evidence for our positions. Why are you so certain that Walmart will benefit from a minimum wage increase. If Walmart would benefit from a minimum wage increase why do they fight so hard against it?

The only thing we know is gonna happen with a minimum wage increase is that people on the minimum wage are gonna get paid more.

It does. Trump got 70 million votes and if he didn't deal with Covid like a fool he'd probably win another 4 years. Biden barely won several key states by a few thousand. Being left leaning in general is barely more popular than right, and extreme left is in the minority. Bernie's ideas are brilliant but not as popular in the US as we need for him (or someone like him) to either get president or accomplish anything in office unless Congress is equally left.
What does any of this have to do with anything? Even if fixing things doesnt prove popular somehow, you still fixed the damn things.

Look, here is the thing. At the point where a politician says "we are going to increase the minimum wage, but we will do it the slow sensible way, because we are sensible people" then they are already committed. I have never, ever, ever heard a politician say "well, we always knew there were going to be risks, and it didnt work out, so now we are going to change our approach" what they always end up doing is saying "oh yes, the economy is on its knees, but it isnt my fault, its because we didnt go far enough". The waiting for years thing is entirely aesthetic. And meanwhile the people on the minimum wage are still struggling to make rent.

Yes, it will be a shock for people paying minimum wage, but it wont be as hard as it is for the people on minimum wage right now. And there are a lot more of those people.

It is when the guy in question is doing exactly what we voted him into office to do. Congress on the other hand is in the middle of working on bills for him to sign to make those things happen, or is dragging its feet due to partisan or bipartisan disagreements.
There are concentration camps on your border.

If you don't like it YOU can write to your congressmen / representatives and try to vote someone else in when 2022 / 2024 comes around.
I write to my local MP a lot. But for American politics I don't have a congressperson so I have to annoy people on the internet into doing it for me.

But knee jerk blaming Biden for something he didn't do is shitty especially when the guys in Congress are getting away with not doing what we want. Too many people use the president as a scapegoat for their problems. Biden / the President isn't king of America, they're just part of the Executive branch who has to deal with the other two. As far as I can see Biden has been doing pretty much exactly what he promised to.
He didn't close the concentration camps yet though.

There is no point to your post except "nu uh, democrats bad".
:(

Sorry but at this time there is no viable Bernie / AOC party, as much as I would like there to be. Instead we have the Democrats who are, at this moment, more far left then they have ever been. Maybe depending on who runs for Dems / Rep in 2024 we might have a chance to get a really left leaning president / congress. Maybe in 2022 we'll get some new congressmen as well.
Maybe, but maybe the best way to get new congresspeople is to actually improve things. Maybe you have a window right now while the Republican party is in disarray to get things done, and if you wait til 2022 your window will have closed. There is no reason to think that there is a better opportunity than right now to fix things if you can fix things. And you could, if people demanded it.

Biden isn't the end goal, he's a stepping stone towards what we want. If Biden's policies are successful (and they should be, since there's plenty of real world examples of literally everything he campaigned on working) it will pave the way to more left leaning ideas gaining popularity. But just screeching BERNIE OR BUST doesn't help or realistically take into account the political situation in the US.
This I agree with.

On the other hand, saying "Biden is gonna fix everything, dont worry your precious little head" is also a bad idea.

I would support this if for no other reason than to see how the Republicans try to turn competitive Pokémon into propaganda.
Well, you'll have to change the constitution to allow non resident non citizens to be President, but if you can do that, then I'll consider a run. I'd have to work remotely though, I am not moving to America.
 
I think the basic thing that the "progress takes time" crowd misses is that no time exists. Look at Obama's presidency, which was firmly ideologically rooted in incrementalism. The plan is always based on the belief that your incremental progress will be continued on by future administrations, but if your attempt to handpick your successor fails as it did in 2016, what little you achieved is undone by the next conservative administration.

Compare this to FDR, one of the few presidents in history that didn't completely suck. He approached the Great Depression (the closest analogue to our own times) not with cautious incrementalism but unabashed partisan action. This resulted in the establishment of a social safety net and various rights in America that did not exist and still haven't successfully been repealed by conservatives in the near-century they've been trying, because as they have acknowledged, once an entitlement is given to people it is politically near-impossible to take it away. And it resulted in relief from the depression that tepid incrementalism would not have been able to replicate. It also resulted in a president so popular they had to nerf him with term limits to stop him from being re-elected, which is a hard problem to imagine for modern Democrats.

The incremental approach just backs liberal politicians into unwinnable scenarios where they need to make more ambitious campaign promises than they intend to keep to succeed electorally (because their actual views are unpopular), therefore committing to policies they know they won't enact. These unfulfilled promises result in frustration among the voter base who become less likely to support the party as a result; hence why Obama lost control of Congress at the first opportunity in 2010 and why the same will likely happen to Biden in 22.

Neoliberalism has successfully convinced its followers that all human progress has happened slowly over time, but that's pretty ahistorical. It actually happens in short, radical bursts, typically from extrapolitical direct action which is then tempered by neoliberal politicians who warn voters about the consequences of radical political change, as though they and the rest of the powerful and wealthy aren't the only ones who stand to lose anything. You might think you're promoting progress by advocating for careful incremental change, but you're actually just repeating the exact language used to stymie it. Time and again, moderate politics have been used to divert radical energy towards a system fundamentally designed to maintain the status quo.

Biden's approach is a time-tested failure, because it's designed to fail. Biden would love nothing more than a divided government so he'll have an excuse why he doesn't owe the American people shit. This was the design of the phase-in for the $15 minimum wage being stretched out to 2025; it's a given that Dems will lose control of Congress in 22, thus whatever "progress" is made towards $15 will be halted whenever control ends. Meanwhile, the $10 or so it gets stuck at will obviously do next to nothing to help people because of course it won't: adjusted for inflation and productivity, the min wage should be closer to $23. The inevitable failure of this intentionally half-assed attempt will allow Dems to abandon minimum wage increases as a major policy in the future and to dismiss anyone who asks them to do it, because it didn't work when they (kind of, not really) tried it.
 
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yeah the point of people bringing up $15 minimum wage here is that it was a promised bare minimum action that biden is not following through on. when you reply to that by saying 'oh but there are better solutions anyway,' it comes off as dismissive of the legitimate frustrations people have.

it's like if i promised my mother i would wash the dishes, but then i never did it. if she got upset about that, it would be dismissive, not helpful, to say 'well just get a dishwasher.'
Biden has nothing to do with the minimum wage. All he can do is bitch at Congress about it. I don’t know why people direct so much emotion towards the President when POTUS does jack shit in passing legislation.

The anger should be directed at Joe Manchin, but frankly no one who’s followed politics should be surprised because he’s always been a right-wing Senator. The Senate as an extreme Republican lean so until Manchin can be strong armed into killing the filibuster the Democrats aren’t passing a damn thing without budget reconciliation.
 
Joe Biden does have something to do with the minimum wage, as it was one of his campaign promises that inspired enough people to push him (and the senate Dems) over the electoral hill. What the president says does hold a degree of influence, even if it isn't real authority. He is the ideological face and voice of the party and he's doing nothing with that figurehead position that he could be. Now, he could be vocally opposing Manchin and the parliamentarian and encouraging/instructing his VP to override it and force the inclusion of the minimum wage, but he is instead choosing a hands-off approach. It'd be hard to blame someone for concluding that he never actually cared about any of his campaign promises to begin with, if this is the amount of effort and support he is willing to give.
 
Biden has nothing to do with
i find this stuff interesting. people never seem to use the 'the president is a huge loser pussy who cant do shit' excuse to take credit away from the president. for example: earlier in this thread i remember someone giving biden credit for $15 minimum wage, yet curiously you were nowhere to be seen. only now, when it's to defend his honor, do you come in here to talk about how no no no, really he's a pussy and can't do anything. really hard to respect the obvious inconsistency there
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Following up what Lily said I was amused by how quickly sultan and hands shifted my criticism of democrats who ostensibly have complete control of the government to just being a criticism of Biden allowing them to prop up this weak defense of Biden and his lack of total power.
 
Joe Biden does have something to do with the minimum wage, as it was one of his campaign promises that inspired enough people to push him (and the senate Dems) over the electoral hill. What the president says does hold a degree of influence, even if it isn't real authority. He is the ideological face and voice of the party and he's doing nothing with that figurehead position that he could be. Now, he could be vocally opposing Manchin and the parliamentarian and encouraging/instructing his VP to override it and force the inclusion of the minimum wage, but he is instead choosing a hands-off approach. It'd be hard to blame someone for concluding that he never actually cared about any of his campaign promises to begin with, if this is the amount of effort and support he is willing to give.
Following up what Lily said I was amused by how quickly sultan and hands shifted my criticism of democrats who ostensibly have complete control of the government to just being a criticism of Biden allowing them to prop up this weak defense of Biden and his lack of total power.
No, it’s not hard to blame those who want the President to be a dictator. We just fired the last President and his party for acting that way. Either you respect the American process or you don’t opportunistically when it doesn’t benefit you.

Bottom line is the Democrats do not have the numbers in the Senate. 50/50 gives too much power to Joe Manchin. All the people who sat out or didn’t vote Democratic down ballot should have thought about that the last three election cycles. Democracy comes down to the math. Those that think voting in one election causes big structural change haven’t taken the time or care enough about how to get to their desired outcome.


i find this stuff interesting. people never seem to use the 'the president is a huge loser pussy who cant do shit' excuse to take credit away from the president. for example: earlier in this thread i remember someone giving biden credit for $15 minimum wage, yet curiously you were nowhere to be seen. only now, when it's to defend his honor, do you come in here to talk about how no no no, really he's a pussy and can't do anything. really hard to respect the obvious inconsistency there
There’s no inconsistency whatsoever. I’ve always said that people have a ridiculous expectation of presidential power when it comes to legislation.
 
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MZ

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When I think dictatorial power grabs I think of encouraging your running mate to use their legally granted powers to override a position nobody's ever heard of and force a vote on something like 60+% of the country supports.
 

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