I would prefer the US locking people up for posting cringe if it meant they would also stop drone striking civilians to death. I guess I'm the weird one though, since apparently to liberals it 'doesn't count' if you kill people who aren't american.
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Headlines “Politics” [read the OP before posting]
- Thread starter vonFiedler
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brb gonna drop a moab on a middle eastern nation, but dw yall it's not a massacre cause im like totally in a legitimate war that isn't at all about destabilizing an entire region and causing millions to suffer starvation or about controlling the oil supply, and even if I kill a couple american citizens it's fine because at least they have the freedom to talk about it, at least until the next election. see you on mt. rushmore frens, it sure is good to live in the homeland of an unproblematic global empire and not in a orwellian dystopia like china.
this what happens when you get your political ideology from the front page of reddit
It truly stands as a testament to the greatness of free American society that cops and civilians regularly kill fellow citizens without needing a government institution telling them to do so.
Different to who? Do you think it matters to an Iraqi child who lost their parents whether or not the US military "intended" to kill them? Actually, what does it say about Americans' valuation of brown people's lives that they are willing to accept massive "collateral damage" that often far exceeds the amount of non-collateral damage? And before you point out again that it is "war" and therefore it is allowed, let us consider how many American non-combatants have been killed by the Middle Eastern countries that America has waged war on. Let us also consider the implications of the term "asymmetric warfare."
As an aside, I think it is hilarious how American liberals will talk about the Chinese government in a way that can only be described as "conspiratorial thinking" which is something they would absolutely condemn anyone for doing if the target of the conspiracy theories was the US government. Very embarrassing stuff.
That's exactly what I'm saying. When most people hate China they automatically dislike normal Chinese people, despite that it is really their government (and a few extremist groups) that they should be hating. I'm not defending anything the Chinese government has done. It's undeniably horrible. I'm just pointing out that its not the Chinese people's fault.
Even if you're looking at things happened in the US, the US put its own citizens into concentration camps, systematically and repeatedly massacred striking workers in coal mines, has the largest prison population and the highest incarceration rate in the world (not to mention private prisons, penal labor, the "war on drugs" and nonviolent drug "offenses" etc), refused to treat poor black people with syphilis for 40 years to see the course of untreated syphilis, tested torture methods and various chemicals on prisoners and mental patients, bombed a residential compound and burnt 11 people (including 5 children) to death and destroyed a neighborhood in the process, etc etc. If you think the Chinese government is uniquely evil you aren't looking close enough.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-union_violence_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmesburg_Prison
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing
Lol there is absolutely no comparison between the US and China.
This is what happens when you make it your mission to catalogue every single thing wrong with a country - you start to lack perspective. Sure the US has done more than its' fair share of horrible things both domestically and internationally when compared to other 'first world' countries, there is no denying that. However, there is no comparison between what the US has done and what China has done over the last century.
Here is one link which trumps all of the links posted by the trolls arguing the opposite: HOW MANY DIED? NEW EVIDENCE SUGGESTS FAR HIGHER NUMBERS FOR THE VICTIMS OF MAO ZEDONG'S ERA - The Washington Post
For those too lazy to click on it Mao Zedong was responsible for between 40 - 80 million deaths in China from 1949 to 1976. There is nothing in the US' very troubled history that even remotely compares to that level of genocide. It does not in any way justify the horrible things the US has done and is responsible for to admit that China has been undeniably worse in the last century when it comes to human rights.
Don't worry, admitting that China is worse doesn't mean that you can't all go back to the regularly scheduled programming of shitting on the US constantly. In many ways it is deserved. But don't let all that fun deprive you of your common sense.
This is what happens when you make it your mission to catalogue every single thing wrong with a country - you start to lack perspective. Sure the US has done more than its' fair share of horrible things both domestically and internationally when compared to other 'first world' countries, there is no denying that. However, there is no comparison between what the US has done and what China has done over the last century.
Here is one link which trumps all of the links posted by the trolls arguing the opposite: HOW MANY DIED? NEW EVIDENCE SUGGESTS FAR HIGHER NUMBERS FOR THE VICTIMS OF MAO ZEDONG'S ERA - The Washington Post
For those too lazy to click on it Mao Zedong was responsible for between 40 - 80 million deaths in China from 1949 to 1976. There is nothing in the US' very troubled history that even remotely compares to that level of genocide. It does not in any way justify the horrible things the US has done and is responsible for to admit that China has been undeniably worse in the last century when it comes to human rights.
Don't worry, admitting that China is worse doesn't mean that you can't all go back to the regularly scheduled programming of shitting on the US constantly. In many ways it is deserved. But don't let all that fun deprive you of your common sense.
I mean, at that point I could write about slavery/the transatlantic slave trade and the genocides of Native Americans and it'd be a pissing contest about which country has "worse" atrocities. That's not really my point - the point is many things the current Chinese government does or has done (concentration camps, massacres, gross violations of bodily autonomy) the US is also guilty of. It's just that you aren't affected by it, so it's easy to overlook. To rave on about how terrible China is while overlooking US's past (and present) shows a lack of awareness at best and is hypocritical and callous at worst.
Also I would appreciate it if you didn't call me a troll
ill continue to wait for one of these witless rightwing centrists, finally chastened by realizing their lifelong intellectual commitment has been to finding fancy language for dj trump talking points, to look up stats on deaths caused by systemic poverty so they realize that America's commitment to global scarcity causes a 'great leap forward' every decade at the minimum, not once a century, and all this without even mentioning the approximately 30million ppl killed by wars began in the name of stopping the spread of communism in the 20th century. it's unfortunate how little they care about loss of life that can't be trotted out to tell ppl to 'stop shitting on america' after they began the topic as a big self-congratulatory distraction/ display of unrepentant national affection. I long for the day when americans can stop looking 'over there' to distract themselves from reality.
Okay, let's pretend this doesn't happen in the US, and that both its domestic and foreign policies are good enough to serve as an example for other countries (this is what they actually do and it's just bad, just to let you know), of course, screw those people like Assange for speaking out against the government and those who constantly fight for their social rights in the US, as well as those who have paid the cost of unnecessary wars and interventions, these are definitely not significant differences, right?.
Neither is worse or better than the other, but there are significant differences in the imperialist arrogance shown by US policies.
Sorry, but you cannot cover the sun with a finger, buddy.
The fact that you can speak out about these issues is still more than what you can do in China. A couple of whistleblowers being persecuted =/= the entire country being unable to criticize the leadership and anything critical of the government being censored. Furthermore, the fact that oppressed minorities can actually fight for their rights in the US is a far step above what is happening to Uighurs and Tibetans. Sure, you can point to isolated incidents but that clearly misses the point. It's as dumb as the people who try to say that Republicans and Democrats are equally bad as each other.Okay, let's pretend this doesn't happen in the US, and that both its domestic and foreign policies are good enough to serve as an example for other countries (this is what they actually do and it's just bad, just to let you know), of course, screw those people like Assange for speaking out against the government and those who constantly fight for their social rights in the US, as well as those who have paid the cost of unnecessary wars and interventions, these are definitely not significant differences, right?.
Neither is worse or better than the other, but there are significant differences in the imperialist arrogance shown by US policies.
Sorry, but you cannot cover the sun with a finger, buddy.
The fact that I would be persecuted and censored as those "whistleblowers", even if I speak out on these issues in the way they do, is exactly the same, there is simply no comparison, that's actually the US government's perception of freedom, and since we're talking about oppressed minorities, recent events in the US, in terms of police brutality, clearly shows that it is not possible for these minorities to fight for their rights without their lives being threatened, which is not new, it's been going on for years.
If you truly believe this, you have no sense of perspective. There are many US-owned newspapers and media outlets that covered said whistleblowers, the struggles of BLM, police brutality, government corruption, etc. and none of them have faced any sanctions from the U.S. government. How many newspapers do you think are running in the People's Republic of China that are covering issues like the Uighur camps, police brutality in Hong Kong, China leaving various developing countries in severe debt to it, et cetera?
This is directly the Russian state propaganda line, and it has been since the Soviet era. Is Russia/USSR some evil irrational boogeyman we have to destroy? No. Does only Russia have propaganda and not the U.S.? No. Does Russia consistently attempt to warp international happenings to support/sway/pressure its neighbors into authoritarianism? Yes. Is the Russian pro-authoritarian propaganda line something we should expect to be fully clear, accurate, and representative? No. I would venture that its line / this view is missing some perspective.
e: eloquent refutation myo
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your argument appears to be that your opponent, having not mentioned anything about russia, is an (un)witting russian shill. My reaction is no refutation, none is needed lol. i guess anyone who takes note of oppression of minority liberation movements in the U.S is a russian shill now. now stop acting like you aren't hilarious.
I am willing to claim that:
1) If a statement directly is a primary Russian propaganda line used to pressure neighbors into authoritarianism (none of this "general talking points" or "bringing up issues" stuff)
2) That statement is probably missing perspective that prevents it from being fully comprehensive.
That doesn't mean the statement is completely without merit and all its ideas should be thrown away. It means that the statement has something missing.
The following statements are what I argue are direct Russian propaganda lines used to pressure neighbors into authoritarianism (again, not merely "general talking points" or "taking note of oppression"). Tell me if you think I'm strawmanning the poster; this is what I honestly interpreted.
"If you think there is a substantive difference between how America and (non-Western power) treat dissent, you're being fooled about false ideas of freedom from the U.S. government."
"The U.S. is an unfree country because it oppresses minorities."
"U.S. oppression of minorities shows that (non-Western power) should continue its current direction rather than emulate the U.S."
Again, there are valid ideas here. The U.S. has unfree elements. It should not be wholesale emulated. We can all agree on these things.
But there is a difference between "The U.S. has problems." and "The U.S. has problems, so (non-Western power) is no worse."
1) If a statement directly is a primary Russian propaganda line used to pressure neighbors into authoritarianism (none of this "general talking points" or "bringing up issues" stuff)
2) That statement is probably missing perspective that prevents it from being fully comprehensive.
That doesn't mean the statement is completely without merit and all its ideas should be thrown away. It means that the statement has something missing.
The following statements are what I argue are direct Russian propaganda lines used to pressure neighbors into authoritarianism (again, not merely "general talking points" or "taking note of oppression"). Tell me if you think I'm strawmanning the poster; this is what I honestly interpreted.
"If you think there is a substantive difference between how America and (non-Western power) treat dissent, you're being fooled about false ideas of freedom from the U.S. government."
"The U.S. is an unfree country because it oppresses minorities."
"U.S. oppression of minorities shows that (non-Western power) should continue its current direction rather than emulate the U.S."
Again, there are valid ideas here. The U.S. has unfree elements. It should not be wholesale emulated. We can all agree on these things.
But there is a difference between "The U.S. has problems." and "The U.S. has problems, so (non-Western power) is no worse."
cute.
where can we even begin with this lovely ahistorical gloss? maybe we should we start with the fact that you claim that noting the oppression of minorities by the US government "has been a russian propaganda line for decades". Would you go so far as to say that it's been going on since the civil rights movement in the 60's and 70's lol? Sorry, but just because Russia says something doesn't make it untrue, but the fact that you're so quick to make out people as russian shills is honestly not possible to take seriously at all.
How does pointing out that the U.S government oppresses minorities pressure countries to adopt authoritarianism? Now Russia may pressure countries to become totalitarian, but not because they point this out. These are entirely separate phenomena that you're conflating which has the unintended ( I say 'unintended' because Ican be charitable after all) effect of making it out that people who say such things are authoritarians, when it is pretty obvious that the opposite is the case.
As for strawmanning, it is p blatant at this point, shameful even, I mean I'm reading Zerses posts and he claims exactly none of these things (which is probably exactly why you haven't directly quoted from his post), he just points out that people should stop using other country's excesses to deflect from the excesses of US imperialism which have a global scale, and which indeed ought not to be emulated.
I can empathize with your perspective in so far as it is true that authoritarian countries point out US problems to deflect from their own misery, but as I have said in previous posts in this thread, it really isn't much of an interest of mine to do the same thing in reverse and so when the U.S is in the midst of a civil rights crisis, when we we're like seconds and inches away from going full rightwing coup, it is pretty hilarious to be like 'at least we aren't china, we have free speech' because it is entirely circumstantial that we continue to have such, and the staunchest proclaimers of free speech in America are conservative evangelicals who would do away with all dissenters' free speech given the chance.
Finally returning to imperialism, from a global perspective, from a systemic poverty perspective, it is not at all clear where the US stands on the scale of 'really evil' countries. Anyone who reads the news knows that we have a massive incarceration industry that abets authoritarians all over the world by not upholding the human rights of their victims, by sponsoring authoritarian coups, by selling arms to saudi arabia, by destabilizing regions and killing millions as 'casualties of war'.
The only perspective missing here lies within the one who would reduce all of this to 'russian propaganda'. These people are arguably the worst type of naivettes, even worse than just the vanilla ignorants who want to remain undisturbed by the broader state of affairs, because while the vanilla ignorant just wants to feel comfort, the naivettes who shout down conversations with accusations of russian shilling are basically spinning a conspiracy meant to depict their opponents, who are trying to talk about U.S imperialism (which is itself a propagator of authoritarianism), as supporters of authoritarianism, Meanwhile, the U.S grows ever more and more like the authoritarian countries they claim to be so concerned about.
Really all this makes me think of that Freude or whoever quote about how we hate people, or in this case the countries, that remind us of ourselves.
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I modified this because you're pretty much making the exact point I've been trying to make for a while now.
Basically the issue is americans and citizens of US lackey states constantly pointing at china/russia as a scapegoat for or distraction from their own problems. Again, that is literally the reason China ever came up in the first place in this thread, you can check yourself.
Can someone who wants to make an actual OP take this to a new thread?
I can't think of freedom without pointing out how is there people like Assange and many others who have been constantly persecuted and censored for simply speaking out against the government and pretend it's normal, or that minorities are not being able to fight for their rights because their lives are being threatened by police brutality. Are we just going to ignore these issues to not even care about it and simply talk about how bad the Chinese censorship is compared to the US?.
Can't tell if you're being serious or not, but how can you label my previous post as Russian state propaganda? you even go so far as to mention the Soviet era, which has nothing to do with what I was talking about, in such logic, if there's something to blame the US government for, even all its faults, it's just propaganda and that's it? I do understand that people would end up talking about how bad are Russia and China, but is that even a reason to not even point out how bad has the US government done in terms of its domestic and foreign policies? that's a shame.
Also, since you brought Russia out of nowhere,
You just forgot something else,
Does the US government consistently attempt to warp international happenings to support/sway/pressure its neighbors into unnecessary wars and coups to overthrow governments, which results in failed states as well? Yes.
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