Anti- vaxxers, what are they?

Cresselia~~

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I came across an article from "I fucking love science" facebook group, about how Americans are now getting measles, and there was a heated debate between anti-vaxxers (people against vaccination) and people who see the importance of vaccination.

It is just very difficult to comprehend how such a movement would have emerged and gained so many followers. Especially when they claim that vaccines are toxins and result in autism.
And no offense, but I've never heard of this movement in the East.

Whilst, there had been much controversies about the linkage between vaccinations and autism (many claimed that the scientists are being bribed), even if they are right with this, I don't see why having autism is an excuse for not having vaccines.
Is having autism that bad? That they'd rather risk their child of dying in exchange of this "prevention" of autism? Is there discrimination towards autism?

What is the matter of being unnatural? (They claim that vaccines are bad because they are unnatural.)
What is with them that they assume every natural thing is good whilst every unnatural thing is bad?
Would they want their kids to not wear any clothes? Natural? How about having your kids eaten by predators? Or leave your kids die in the cold because radiators are so unnatural?

I don't understand them. No, I mean, I'm even more interested to know as to WHY these movements can gain so many followers, that herd immunity becomes a problem. An article said that 8,000 children in Iowa alone will go to school without being vaccinated.
I think it's very scary.
I think they should make it illegal to refuse vaccination. I wonder why this cannot be done.
Why can't we do anything about it?
(If this keeps on spreading in the West and gain enough support, people in the East may start to follow as well. It's only a matter of time, and I don't want this to happen.)
 
I dunno, I support vaccinations for the most part (though I might just hold off until they're a bit older), but I dunno if I could raise a kid with autism, props to people who do, but I really don't want to find out if I can as I'd much rather have normal kids instead of basically defective ones, harsh as that sounds.

Otherwise regarding anti-vaxxers, they're probably mostly your usual hippie, antigovernment, holistic, or religious types who have always existed, they're just trending now. As long as your kids are vaccinated, shouldn't really matter if other people don't bother as vaccinations allegedly wards off catching anything from them.
 

Adamant Zoroark

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They gain so many followers by appealing to emotion. Humans aren't perfect, and one of our many imperfections is that we are more driven by emotion than logic. Then there's also confirmation bias - if someone so adamantly believes that vaccines cause autism (which is in and of itself based on a fraudulent study) they'll only look for information that confirms their viewpoint.

There was some recent news story about a case in Disneyland where infants (too young to receive vaccines) got measles from an unvaccinated woman. I'd agree that vaccination should be mandatory (even if it DID cause autism) but it'd be impossible to pass such a law in the US. People here tend to fight tooth and nail to defend freedom, which normally I'd say is good, except in scenarios like this one where being unvaccinated threatens both yourself and others around you (see: Disneyland case)

Personally, I like how Penn and Teller explained it:

 

Lemonade

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I think also there is quite a large population who are cluless when it comes to biology. Apparently this isn't a joke but I haven't looked too much into it: there are a lot of people (80%) who want food with DNA in it labeled...yeah (it's only one survey by one uni I think, but still. Actual DNA, not just genetic engineering). This isn't directly related to vaccines but I expect people who don't exactly know what DNA is don't really understand the science behind vaccines.

Also big pharma, gotta make sure they don't make any money!
 
djanxo unchained said:
I think they should make it illegal to refuse vaccination. I wonder why this cannot be done.
Why can't we do anything about it?
I believe in each of the 50 states (I'll assume you're refering to America in large part by "the West", because although this also happens in australia, i know more about america) there are laws that children who attend public school are required to be vaccinated. The main problem comes with private schools, which do not require any vaccines. Anti-vaxxing is multiple times more common in the richest areas of the country - certain very rich parts of LA, for example, have private schools where over 50% of the kids are unvaccinated. Celebrities endorse the idea that vaccines cause autism; Jenny McCarthy in particular is demonized for ads she did supporting the anti-vaxxer cause.
 

vonFiedler

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Is having autism that bad? That they'd rather risk their child of dying in exchange of this "prevention" of autism? Is there discrimination towards autism?
Autism is not bad at all. As for discrimination, you seem to be the Russel Crowe of ranting, getting into fights all over the internet. I refuse to believe you've gone a day without seeing autism used as a derogatory insult, or generally treated like lower class people. Multiple times a year autistic children are murdered by their parents who are then given sympathy by the media, often in cases where the same anti-vaxxer organizations recommended "autism conversion therapy" (which is exactly like trying to cure gay people).

If people want kids to be normal so badly, don't fucking have them. Kids don't and have never deserved parents who will hate them for being gay, autistic, not playing a sport or following their career.
 

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I think they should make it illegal to refuse vaccination. I wonder why this cannot be done.
"You wake up, it is 8:00 AM in Hong Kong when an email notifies you that the government has begun a mandatory vaccine for a mysterious new disease for it's entire populace via needle injections. Anyone who refuses will be held down by police while doctors administer the 'medicine'."


I'm completely aware of the flawed logic surrounding America's anti-vaxination crowd (or specifically the ones that make bogus counterclaims). The point I'm trying to make (somewhat through hyperbole) is that there's a very good reason most governments can't force such things on citizens without giving real ammo to the "illuminati" crowd.
 

Bughouse

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I think they should make it illegal to refuse vaccination. I wonder why this cannot be done.
Anti-vaxxers are just dumb and so I'm going to also talk about vaccines more generally, since that's the more interesting piece imo.

I've done a good bit of research on the public health of vaccines. In the US, we do have school mandates for kids to get vaccinated with incredibly narrow exemptions. The kids who aren't getting vaccinated in the US by and large do not go to public schools, otherwise they would have to be vaccinated. There is substantial regulation already that should push people to get vaccinated. Still, the US has a long tradition of personal liberty and would probably never go so far as to force everyone to vaccinate their kids with the threat of criminal penalty. That almost certainly wouldn't be held to be constitutional. As it currently stands, if you don't want to get your kids vaccinated for religious reasons, etc, as long as you home school your kids or they go to a private school that doesn't require it, there's nothing stopping you. You have to realize that even a population of 100,000 people in the US is a very small percentage of the general population. Almost everyone gets vaccinated and almost everyone recognizes that anti-vaxxers are crazy. It's just not even a topic worth talking about. There's no solution to dumb people being dumb.

The other practical problem with mandating vaccines is that it raises the cost of the vaccines themselves because pharma companies realize they have a guaranteed monopoly. When Singapore’s national vaccine advisory group evaluated Prevnar 7 for mandated use, its price was about $80. After the government included it in the required national schedule, the price jumped immediately to about $120, even though absolutely nothing about the vaccine or its production process had changed.

This article explains the state of vaccines in the US very well, though not focusing on the anti-vax movement at all, cuz like I said... it's not something that anyone takes seriously nor should they.
 

Chou Toshio

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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/vaccines/view/

^relevant.

While I'm all for the right of parents to look out for the well being of their children (try becoming a parent, and you'll quickly come to understand how your own child means the world more to you than the rest of society)-- but the largest "study" was refuted by its own publisher, claiming faults in the study.

The anti-vaxxers claim there is no data to disprove the possibility of causation between vaccine and autism or other neurological conditions, but there in fact a wealth of studies regarding the safety of vaccines. Rather, there are no studies affirming a causation, or even a significant correlation.

As a result of concerns with vaccines, the Japanese moved to a split schedule of not giving mmr all at the same time-- but splitting the timing of the mmr vaccinations was found to have no affect on rates of autism or other conditions. The Japanese are going back to the one shot mmr.

Autism or other issues are scary as hell for a parent-- but the vaccine scare is just unscientific fear run wild.
 

Myzozoa

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anti-vaxxers, what are they?

A false-flag, a distraction from the pressing need to reform 'the western' (yah i find it gross to play into jynx's obsession with an east-west binary too) model of health which seeks health through chemicals. Pills which, while very profitable for some, will not cure the sickness of an industrialized capitalist societal structure.

You should definitely get your kids vaccinated, but if you don't see how "big pharma" and "big tech" are colonizing people's lives, I suppose that for you, the idea that vaccines are of central importance to bodily security makes it easier to accept that other medicinal norms are also necessary to conform to.

Because vaccines "are good" does not mean that the American health system is anything other than completely fucked up, and a lot of the problem is the centrality of scientific (by which i mean non-holistic) approaches to health. Pills cannot cure poverty, pills will not save the environment, a pill will not give you the strength to leave your abusive lover, and pills do not make a person healthy. In another way, pills are sort of a disease causing agent: ABR infections (yah I see you googling what ABR could possibly stand for), addictions, lethal toxicity, cognitive defects, mass sociopathy and delusion, etc.

Today, people at birth are that which it used to take a whole life time to become. The scientific prophecy of genetics provides us with various identities at the moment of conception. At birth, bodies are marked by scientific ideologies: as man, as woman, as the wise, as the fool, as white, 'mixed race', brown, healthy, diseased, disabled, as straight, as gay, sane, criminal, etc, etc... etc. Biology masquerades as destiny, and capitalist ideology finds its greatest affirmation from the principle that the fittest individuals survive. I am not sad about this though: While I am having fun being 'really dumb', they will be busy dying from climate change related upheavals in societal structures, as well as cellulite poisoning/botulism, obesity or anti-biotic resistant measles. Thus, 'knowledge of biology' will turn out to be no indication of an individual's fitness. For science does not emerge from nowhere, from no place in time or social relations, as it claims to. And of course, any who would apply biological knowledge are always in a certain place, at a certain time.


For those that say humans are more driven by emotion than logic:

What logic is this? Could you point to 'the' logic, or link to it? Just show me the rules and then we can talk about how you don't know anything about "logic". Oh wait, I'm already doing that.

No, what people are driven by is the supposed safety of conformity, which, though detrimental, actually has more to do with being driven by bad logic (bad ideas) than bad emotions. Ideas are taught and disseminated, not emotions (you sheep). An example of such a bad idea that is often 'conformed to', is the assertion that there is some universal, essential rules of logic that all actors most follow or else their status as rational actors is suspect. Notice how the idea that their is only one rational answer and all other answers are its negation, disavows any diversity of perspectives. We are told that, not only is it right (justified) to believe x, but also that to hold 'not x' is a culpable wrong. So, in effect, we are all told that what is just is to think and feel exactly the same thing as everyone else.


It belongs to medicine to produce not profit, but health. Yet like so many other ways of knowing, it has become co-opted by expertise in business. Thus, the will to profit marches medicine towards the production of wealth, as though that were the end.

Biology is the study of the material causes of life and so it is clear that the knowledge it emanates has little to contribute to a discussion of how to live well. Nonetheless, we find ourselves governed by biology.

I really hope yall don't have children. And I don't mean that you shouldn't pass on your genes, I mean that you should stay away from children because you're messed up as fuck and the way you think is really bad, just like the things you do. No adoption either, it would be tragic if your children thought the same things you do, and you are liable to teach them vicious ways of living.
 

dwarfstar

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Myzozoa I don't get your assertion that concern about the anti-vaccination movement is a false flag. First off, the resurgence of diseases we've been beating back does end up hurting people (and if we go beyond measles to something like influenza, potentially very seriously so). Secondly, it occurs to me that a bacterium or virus that infects a host who would otherwise have been immunized by a vaccine has newfound potential to mutate into something more destructive and/or harder to eradicate by virtue of surviving and reproducing where it otherwise wouldn't.
I understand that pills are touted as a cure-all when they aren't; I don't see how this is all that relevant to the issue at hand. Likewise with the idea of biological determinism as an aspect of culture (as a student of biology, I think this is something that ought to change to some extent because the influence of biology on culture and vice-versa is a subject with far too many unexplored complexities to factor into cultural understanding as of now, but this is completely beside the point). I understand that the American "healthcare" system is profit-driven, to the detriment of people who lack the resources to access treatment, and I agree that this state of affairs is all kinds of fucked up - hell, I'm about as anti-capitalist as it's possible to get - but that doesn't change the fact that the anti-vax crowd is spreading dangerous misinformation and putting other people's health at risk, and as I see it, educating the public about that is a worthy endeavor. Beating back their nonsense and changing the American healthcare system (and economic system as a whole) are also not mutually exclusive, so I see the notion that one is distracting from the other as a bit problematic. I'm not going to argue that breaking down the current system isn't of overarching importance, but if you can fix a smaller problem at the same time as you're working on the more important one, doing so seems like common sense.
 
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Cresselia~~

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T

There was some recent news story about a case in Disneyland where infants (too young to receive vaccines) got measles from an unvaccinated woman. I'd agree that vaccination should be mandatory (even if it DID cause autism) but it'd be impossible to pass such a law in the US. People here tend to fight tooth and nail to defend freedom, which normally I'd say is good, except in scenarios like this one where being unvaccinated threatens both yourself and others around you (see: Disneyland case)
That's the article I came across. They actually can have a negative impact onto the others, which make them selfish and inconsiderate.

I believe in each of the 50 states (I'll assume you're refering to America in large part by "the West", because although this also happens in australia, i know more about america) there are laws that children who attend public school are required to be vaccinated. The main problem comes with private schools, which do not require any vaccines. Anti-vaxxing is multiple times more common in the richest areas of the country - certain very rich parts of LA, for example, have private schools where over 50% of the kids are unvaccinated. Celebrities endorse the idea that vaccines cause autism; Jenny McCarthy in particular is demonized for ads she did supporting the anti-vaxxer cause.
What? Why? Why are these people even rich when they are meant to be such losers?
Why are dumb people like that allowed to become rich? How did they get there?
Movie stars or what? Sigh... teachers need to be paid more, not movie stars or those dumb celebrities with no talent.

Autism is not bad at all. As for discrimination, you seem to be the Russel Crowe of ranting, getting into fights all over the internet. I refuse to believe you've gone a day without seeing autism used as a derogatory insult, or generally treated like lower class people. Multiple times a year autistic children are murdered by their parents who are then given sympathy by the media, often in cases where the same anti-vaxxer organizations recommended "autism conversion therapy" (which is exactly like trying to cure gay people).

If people want kids to be normal so badly, don't fucking have them. Kids don't and have never deserved parents who will hate them for being gay, autistic, not playing a sport or following their career.
No public education/ public awareness for normal people about autism?
Lower class people, whilst most inventions in the modern society are invented by autistic people?
What's wrong with these people?
Can we not sue them for discrimination?
 

vonFiedler

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No public education/ public awareness for normal people about autism?
Lower class people, whilst most inventions in the modern society are invented by autistic people?
What's wrong with these people?
Can we not sue them for discrimination?
The most celebrity endorsed "autism awareness" group is called Autism Speaks, a group run by no one with autism, who are also anti-vaxxers and pro conversion therapy. This is immensely common for "awareness" groups and for the way autism awareness is run in general, if anyone who reads this thread ever donates to such causes they should make sure that they are donating to a group that advocates for rather than demonizes autism.

As much as I think the plights of my people are serious and important, there's not much of it that can or should be settled with legal action. Every reporter and talk show host who sanctifies parents for murdering autistic children is absolutely complicit in the murders that follow, but the same has been said about the link between shooting sprees and how they are reported. The media has known this for a long time, but sensationalism makes money. Rather we need advocacy marches and boycotts against a media that calls us "devastating", but our struggle is a decade or more back when compared to gay rights.
 
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Myzozoa

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Myzozoa I don't get your assertion that concern about the anti-vaccination movement is a false flag. First off, the resurgence of diseases we've been beating back does end up hurting people (and if we go beyond measles to something like influenza, potentially very seriously so). Secondly, it occurs to me that a bacterium or virus that infects a host who would otherwise have been immunized by a vaccine has newfound potential to mutate into something more destructive and/or harder to eradicate by virtue of surviving and reproducing where it otherwise wouldn't.
I understand that pills are touted as a cure-all when they aren't; I don't see how this is all that relevant to the issue at hand. Likewise with the idea of biological determinism as an aspect of culture (as a student of biology, I think this is something that ought to change to some extent because the influence of biology on culture and vice-versa is a subject with far too many unexplored complexities to factor into cultural understanding as of now, but this is completely beside the point). I understand that the American "healthcare" system is profit-driven, to the detriment of people who lack the resources to access treatment, and I agree that this state of affairs is all kinds of fucked up - hell, I'm about as anti-capitalist as it's possible to get - but that doesn't change the fact that the anti-vax crowd is spreading dangerous misinformation and putting other people's health at risk, and as I see it, educating the public about that is a worthy endeavor. Beating back their nonsense and changing the American healthcare system (and economic system as a whole) are also not mutually exclusive, so I see the notion that one is distracting from the other as a bit problematic. I'm not going to argue that breaking down the current system isn't of overarching importance, but if you can fix a smaller problem at the same time as you're working on the more important one, I don't see any reason not to do so.
Well for one thing there is a large population of people, and they happen to be in government offices for some reason, that assert the political authority of medicine on the basis of its supposed ahistorical (or what is sometimes called unbiased) truth. For all the reasons you stated, you are correct to say that the anti-vaccine group are pretty cray. But notice how this is being framed in a way that appeals to so many familiar dogmas. If you read lemonade's post, he uses 'holistic' as some sort of mark of stupidity or crazyness. There is a real 'war' on holistic thinking, and while I personally find people who dont vacc their kids morally repugnant, the way this is being framed (in that it does not talk about the ways medical knowledge needs to be implemented in more holistic ways, which are sometimes ways that aren't obviously profitable: such as having really good education systems, sports programs, etc) associates anti-vaccers with all sorts of ways of thinking that actually have nothing to do with anti-vaccers. Or, that is my sense based on some of the responses itt (east v west, holism somehow is a dirty word, human nature, a distinction between emotion and reason, something really offensive about autism, which is really important to talk about since it relates to the broader ways mental/physical health are conceptualized in our current regime, etc).

Like I just want to reiterate: I really understand the medical context, and I really fucking like, at least for myself, to know as much as possible about practical medicine. As I come from a fancy family full of surgeons and bio-majors and therapists, I am by no means a 'disbeliever' in western medicine (and where is my day-quil, dammit). Like I just know 'the truth', that a lot of people know (like i don't make this shit up i ask ppl questions about this, read a lot, this doesn't just come out of nowhere), but that is rarely spoken: which is that preventative measures, i.e broad, early interventions (like vaccination, better food, more exercise/activity, less poverty) are the only practical ways to achieve a meaningfully healthy population.

Thus, people ought to be mad that we aren't 'vaccinating' against more shit. The metaphor is totally lost in how this shit is being talked about. The entire point is like, left out, at least imo. Like who are the REAL anti-vaccers, the ones being discussed itt are just posers compared to the genuine article.
 
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Cresselia~~

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The most celebrity endorsed "autism awareness" group is called Autism Speaks, a group run by no one with autism, who are also anti-vaxxers and pro conversion therapy. This is immensely common for "awareness" groups and for the way autism awareness is run in general, if anyone who reads this thread ever donates to such causes they should make sure that they are donating to a group that advocates for rather than demonizes autism.

As much as I think the plights of my people are serious and important, there's not much of it that can or should be settled with legal action. Every reporter and talk show host who sanctifies parents for murdering autistic children is absolutely complicit in the murders that follow, but the same has been said about the link between shooting sprees and how they are reported. The media has known this for a long time, but sensationalism makes money. Rather we need advocacy marches and boycotts against a media that calls us "devastating", but our struggle is a decade or more back when compared to gay rights.
In Hong Kong, we have a law that prohibits celebrities to spread false information publicly. (with no scientific grounds)
Legal action can be taken if any celebrity does that.
Imagine if any celebrity in Hong Kong dared to spread anti-vaxxer views.

I actually have heard of autism speaks, which is very condemned by the people from Wrong Planet (the largest social group for autistic people). It's disastrous to hear that this kind of crap group gets to be celebrity endorsed at all.

Sigh... this has to be fixed. I just can't imagine any country like USA, being the world's leading country in science and technology, can harbour such non-scientific views and worse still, let them run wild in celebrity based media.
Are scientists generally not admired in USA at all? Are they very criticized by the general public?
AND, do they not force remedial to people who fall behind in science class?
 
I saw some people in this thread suggest that refusing vaccinations should be illeigal. I think a better solution is to offer tax breaks to people who do choose to get vaccinated, or perhaps levy a tax penalty to people who choose not to. Getting vaccinated potentially saves the country a lot of money in healthcare costs so why not pass along that gain?
 

Cresselia~~

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Simply put, even if vaccinations did cause autism or whatever else I'd much rather have my child go through life with autism than die from polio.
I for one, cannot comprehend how people can let media demonize autism to the point that they rather their kids die.
This has to stop. Think of all the contributions to the society autistic people have made-- ground breaking science theories, great inventions, etc.
People who think that autism= stupid are in fact the real retards. If they have a problem with autistic kids, it's their problem for being incapable, not the kid's problem.

USA, as a leading country in science and technology, somehow still harbours these unfitting idiotic unscientific population. For some reason. I'm suspecting it's because the welfare system hands out too much money to these lazy losers.



Just fucking eliminate them instead of wasting tax money.
 
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Cresselia~~

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I'll reiterate that the people who are against vaccines (presumably
because they think vaccines cause autism) are typically rich people - those who are not receiving any welfare from the government. I don't personally support the US's current welfare system, but the idea that all who are on welfare are "lazy losers" is ludicrous and insulting. If you could not make ridiculous, social Darwinist-esqe claims blaming the poor for things you don't like about America I'd appreciate it
Allowing stupid people to become rich is a flawed society. It indicates unfair monetry-- people who don't deserve the money has the money, whilst people who are worthy of the money aren't rewarded enough.

Every country should be following Singapore's great example of making everyone earn their own money. No heiresses or lazy people born with a silver spoon kind of bullshit.
If you are clever and work hard, you become rich. If you are stupid, you are poor. If you are lazy, you are also poor.
 

Layell

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I just saw this article floating around, absolutely terrifying that so many students could not have their shots. On a field trip no less. I thought The Onion's satire on this was to a much smaller minority of people.
 

WaterBomb

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Allowing stupid people to become rich is a flawed society. It indicates unfair monetry-- people who don't deserve the money has the money, whilst people who are worthy of the money aren't rewarded enough.

Every country should be following Singapore's great example of making everyone earn their own money. No heiresses or lazy people born with a silver spoon kind of bullshit.
If you are clever and work hard, you become rich. If you are stupid, you are poor. If you are lazy, you are also poor.
It would be nice if you would stop casting such sweeping generalizations about society. Sure, some people on welfare are lazy. Sure, some people who are rich have worked hard for it. There are also many people on welfare who are not lazy and just unfortunate, and there are plenty of stupid and lazy rich people. I deal with the latter of these two on a daily basis at my job.
 
I think with a lot people they look at their child getting injected with painful liquids and think "This can't possibly be the right choice."
They also look at single incidents and count that as evidence rather then looking at documented statistics.

Also the vast majority of unvaccinated people in civilized locations who don't know about herd immunity seem to think "I'm not vaccinated and I haven't caught it so that must mean that vaccines are unnecessary."

And then there are just some people who are really fucking stupid
I think also there is quite a large population who are cluless when it comes to biology. Apparently this isn't a joke but I haven't looked too much into it: there are a lot of people (80%) who want food with DNA in it labeled...yeah (it's only one survey by one uni I think, but still. Actual DNA, not just genetic engineering). This isn't directly related to vaccines but I expect people who don't exactly know what DNA is don't really understand the science behind vaccines.

Also big pharma, gotta make sure they don't make any money!
I found articles of the DNA labeling, still can't believe that someone actually conducted those surveys. But it brings up an interesting point that when people don't understand a concept they would assume it to be dangerous rather then asking what it actually is.
 
I think also there is quite a large population who are cluless when it comes to biology. Apparently this isn't a joke but I haven't looked too much into it: there are a lot of people (80%) who want food with DNA in it labeled...yeah (it's only one survey by one uni I think, but still. Actual DNA, not just genetic engineering). This isn't directly related to vaccines but I expect people who don't exactly know what DNA is don't really understand the science behind vaccines.

Also big pharma, gotta make sure they don't make any money!
I saw that survey, it really is tragic that such a high percentage of people thought DNA was some type of toxic chemical. It becomes scary when you realize that these are people who vote on which bills to pass, what organizations to fund, etc. I mean I understand not everyone is interested in science, but you would think people would at least want to have some basic knowledge of scientific information. Widespread ignorance is why we are seeing preventable diseases like Measles reemerge. People have become spoiled in a way. The majority of people in America haven't seen horrific diseases such as Polio, so they take vaccines for granted. Then some idiot comes around claiming that vaccines cause autism and people are ready to listen and believe. This will probably get worse before it gets better. All it will take is one major measles outbreak and people will be rushing to the doctors and pharmacies to get their shot.
 

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