Anyone wanna give this Vanilla DS Team some Flavor? [OU]

Hey, dudes! RedMeowth here. Well, I’m gonna need some time to rebuild Cowboy Anubis since Salamence was banned, so for now I’m back to using this group, whom I have dubbed “Team Vanilla”. It works wonders for me, possibly because it was inspired by a team somebody suggested a long time ago, and I’m winning my matches with it, though maybe not how I intended. However, I’m looking for ways to improve or liven up the team while still letting it work. I’m open to suggestions, so throw any my way. So, at a glance, here’s the Vanilla Squad.







LINK AZELF @ Colbur Berry
Levitate, Jolly nature
216 Speed / 144 Sp.Def / 8 HP / 140 Attack
Stealth Rock
Taunt
U-Turn
Explosion
The most common lead in the game, and why not? She’s really fast and quite powerful. Stealth Rock was essential to my end-game plan because it keeps flying-types at bay and does chip damage regardless of who the foe is. I wanted to be sure that I got the rocks up and that my lead could still fight well afterward (and I’m not a big Aerodactyl fan here since he would screw with my defensive play).

Taunt would be to keep slower leads from setting up Stealth Rock. Once I have the Stealth Rock set up, Azelf can either U-Turn away to fight later, or he can just set the opponent up the bomb later. Azelf is not very reliable against metallic leads, but against most other foes, he can do something. So, how does Azelf fare against other leads?

Vs. Azelf = I'm slower than most Azelf, so I'll probably be Taunted. Instead, I might as well hammer it with U-Turn and switch to Scizor, who Bullet Punches, U-Turns, or Pursuits the opponent.
Vs. Aerodactyl = I’m afraid it will try and taunt me, so instead, I'll just U-Turn away to Scizor, so Bullet Punches the Aerodactyl.
Vs. Swampert = Taunt it first, then Stealth Rock. After that, if Azelf is still pretty lively, I'll U-Turn away. If Azelf's weary, he'll blow the mud fish away with Explosion instead. I’ve found that Swampert is not a great lead.
Vs. Metagross = Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch will end Azelf, so I'm probably better off just setting my Stealth Rock up. If I somehow survive, I'll U-Turn away to Starmie to fight off the Metagross.
Vs. Jirachi = Use Stealth Rock. I’d probably wind up with a Choice Scarf, so I suppose I can save Azelf for a fast hit later. For now, I guess one of my other Pokemon will take the hit and smack back with Surf or Earthquake.
Vs. Infernape = I’ll get Faked Out, but I’ll try to set Stealth Rock up anyway. Once I can hit back, I U-Turn to Starmie.
Vs. Machamp = Stealth Rock, get hit with Payback, then WTFBOOM! With Colbur Berry, Payback + Bullet Punch doesn't KO, but Machamp is a nuisance I'd like to eliminate.
Vs. Roserade = Taunt the Roserade to prevent Toxic Spikes and Sleep Powder from working. Then, throw up Stealth Rock and survive the Leaf Storm, just barely. Get out of there with U-Turn, then switch to Flygon.
Vs. Tyranitar = Hey! I can actually fight this guy now! Taunt Tyranitar to keep Stealth Rock down, then U-Turn away to prevent damage. Scizor or Flygon can take care of things from here.
Vs. Gliscor = Taunt the Gliscor and then use Stealth Rock. If Gliscor has U-Turn, then Azelf has done his job. I can explode now. If not, then Azelf U-Turns to Flygon or Starmie to finish Gliscor.
Vs. Heatran = Taunt it, then Stealth Rock. If Azelf is still alive, U-Turn to Starmie.
Changes Considered: I'm pretty happy with this Azelf.




ARIEL VAPOREON @ Leftovers
Water Absorb, Bold nature
252 Defense / 188 HP / 68 Speed (might be off)
Wish
Protect
Surf
Hidden Power Electric
My buddies at school hate me for using this guy. Vaporeon is such a pain for them to fight for many reasons. He can take some of the most common elemental attacks around and not be fazed by them. Fire, water, ice, no problem at all! He also has incredible durability.

As I mentioned, people get frustrated when I bring Vaporeon out, and it’s mainly for two reasons: Wish and Protect. This combination is amazing, since it guarantees a turn of healing. Plus, on the turns I use it, Vaporeon is very rarely going to fall to the enemy’s attack. Surf is a nice general attack, and Hidden Power is meant to catch enemy Water-types off-guard. (Vaporeon is a great anti-Empoleon. J )

Changes considered: I might replace Vaporeon with Shaymin to give myself another electric resistance and more offense against bulky waters.




MT. DEW @ Choice Scarf
Levitate, Jolly nature
252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP
Outrage
Earthquake
U-Turn
Fire Blast
TFLegendKiller suggested this one, and I'm kinda glad he did. Flygon is, currently, my favorite Dragon-type Pokemon. Due to his typing and the Levitate ability, you can't bring this guy down with any kind of entry hazards. His typing makes him resistant to all kinds of attacks that don't use ice or dragon power, and with his Choice Scarf, Flygon will be able to escape any danger it faces while doing damage (unless the opponent is also a fast Pokemon with a Choice Scarf, like Jirachi).

Outrage and Earthquake are obvious STAB options, allowing me to deal fast damage with strong attacks, especially late-game. Until then, though, Flygon is mainly switching in on his resistances and probably U-Turning to escape the threat while damaging it. Electricity? Earth? Fire? Rock? Pssh. Fire Blast is here so that I can utilize a decent Fire attack, just in case I come up against something like Forretress or Skarmory.

Changes Considered: I'm pretty happy with Flygon right now. Being able to hit Dragonite and Kingdra quickly also helps. I was considering giving him Fire Punch over Fire Blast, but even with a Jolly nature, Fire Blast is more powerful against Bronzong and Skarmory.





SETSUNA SCIZOR @ Choice Band
Technician, Adamant nature
252 HP / 176 Sp.Def / 80 Attack (this might not be the exact spread; I don't remember it.)
Bullet Punch
U-Turn
Superpower
Pursuit
It’s Scizor with a Choice Band. For at least a year-and-a-half it was everywhere. What do I need to explain about her? Okay, I will admit that this Scizor was given an EV spread that would make her more bulky to special attacks, hopefully letting her survive an extra Fire attack, or something else magical. I also wanted Scizor on the team to lure out anything that would threaten Lucario. Once the metal-killing weapons are exposed, the rest of the team can punish them.

Bullet Punch is a powerful priority move, which can deal decent damage despite its power type coverage. Imagine if Azumarill or Feraligatr had Technician. What would that do for Aqua Jet? U-Turn is great for switching and dealing damage at the same time. Psychic or ghost Pokemon expecting Bullet Punch since that might deal be decent will flee from Scizor’s Pursuit. Or rather not. Superpower was meant to hit Tyranitar or steel Pokemon (Magnezone?) really hard, but it’s by far the most useless move I have.

Changes considered: If I go for an anti-lead, I’d probably replace this one with a Steel Pokemon who can use Stealth Rock. Metagross might work better for this role since that would still work as a lure for anti-Lukes.




MAHO KAIRI STARMIE @ Life Orb
Natural Cure, Timid nature
252 Sp.Atk / 252 Speed / 4 Sp.Def
Hydro Pump
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Recover
Starmie is one of the most amazing Pokemon that has existed through all generations. Her speed and power are hard to match. Starmie's diversity means that she can hit a wide variety of opponents, and when combined with her speed and power, not many foes will be able to survive more than one or two hits.

Hydro Pump is not always a reliable move, but DAMN does it hit like a train that hasn’t been suplexed by Sabin. Only Pokemon with Water Absorb can REALLY consider themselves safe from this. And even then, Starmie has Thunderbolt to hit Water-types and Gyarados, as well as Ice Beam for blasting plants, dragons, and the earthen. Since I have switched over to the Life Orb set, Starmie's HP might be exhausted after a few attacks. Therefore, Recover should help her hold her stand a little while longer.

Changes considered: I’ve mentioned how I might consider an anti-lead in Azelf’s place, right? Well, you’re looking at her. I’ve been wanting to test anti-lead Starmie out. But if Azelf fares better, then I’ll just forget about it.




CLINT LUCARIO @ Life Orb
Steadfast, Adamant nature
252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 Defense
Close Combat
Swords Dance
Crunch
Extreme Speed
Lucario is one of my favorite Pokemon to come out of Generation 4, and he makes an excellent end-game sweeper. …if I need him. The idea of the team is to prepare for Lucario to wipe everything else out, but I often don’t need him for that purpose. I guess some players just can’t beat the level.

Should they reach Lucario, however, they must face his amazing power and diversity. After a Swords Dance, Close Combat becomes a force of heroic brutality. This does come at the cost of defense, however, so Luke has to hit hard and fast. Oh, you’re faster than Clint? Are you sure? Extreme Speed may say otherwise. ZOMG! A ghost! What we do about THAT? How about Crunching it? But what about Gengar? Or Aerodactyl? Those will do you in. Um… I’ll make sure they aren’t around when Luke walks into town.

Changes Considered: I’d rather not change this Pokemon unless you suggest an Infernape in its place (I like the newer Fighting-types). However, a set replacing Extreme Speed with Bullet Punch may not be such a bad idea, since that would let me hit Gengar or Aerodactyl. I do have Scizor for Gengar, and Aerodactyl struggles with Vaporeon and Starmie, however. The other change worth considering would probably be Jolly nature over Adamant.

Click to see the new challengers! These are Pokemon that have been suggested and that I am trying out. I'm not 100% set on replacing the Pokemon listed above them with the new guy yet, but the prospect is looking good.


Replacing Vaporeon

SHAYMIN (can't rename her) @ Life Orb
Natural Cure, Bashful nature
252 Sp.Atk / 252 Speed / 4 HP
Seed Flare
Earth Power
Air Slash
Rest
I know, this isn't exactly the set that TFLegendKiller recommended, but I absolutely LOVED that I got this Shaymin from Toys 'R' Us with high IVs, especially in Sp.Atk and Speed (the two most important ones). So much so that I was willing to ignore the neutral nature and fact that her Hidden Power was Flying. Sorry if it's not the best one around, but it's the best I've got.

That being said, Shaymin. Who would've ever figured such a tiny and cute Pokemon could become such a force? She was recently bumped up to the Standard tier, and I can see why. She's actually really powerful as a Pokemon, and her ability to one shot the toughest of bulky Waters is about as devastating as the appearance of wastelands before she heals them. I wonder if this Pokemon will encourage Suicune, Vaporeon, Milotic, and the like to invest in Sp.Def EVs soon?

Seed Flare is obvious - it's Shaymin's signature move and a very powerful one. Not only does it wreck the bulkiest of Water-types, it has a chance of lowering an opponent's Special Defense, making the next blow even more painful! Earth Power is here to hit grounded Steel Pokemon, and it also might lower Sp.Def (though much less of a chance than Seed Flare). Shaymin's Hidden Power turned out to be Flying, not Fire, so I taught her Air Slash instead. This way, I can hit other Grass Pokemon really hard (if I ever encounter a Breloom, oh, you bet there will be hell to pay!) and have a shot at making the foe flinch. (Apparently, Seed Flare might be the best option against Skarmory, though; and once I lower its Sp.Def, good luck forcing me out when you can't move!) Rest is here to recover health and eliminate status. Then, I can switch her out to fully heal her.

Why she isn't on the main team yet: I realize that Shaymin ultimately does more to fight off bulky Waters than Starmie ever will. Using a damage calculator, apparently Seed Flare could do nearly twice as much damage as Starmie's Thunderbolt. There are two things holding me back from completely ditching Starmie, though. 1.) Starmie is incredibly versatile. 2.) Because Starmie is a Psychic Pokemon, I figure that means she is good at drawing in attacks that Lucario would happily set up on. Shaymin is not really Pursuit bait unless she falls asleep due to Rest. Is she?


Click under here to see retirees from the team.
Replaced by Flygon

GRAYSON GLISCOR @ Leftovers
Sand Veil, Jolly nature
252 HP / 252 Speed / 4 Defense
Roost
Taunt
Toxic
Earthquake
Another annoying member and the second half of my defensive core. Gliscor is mainly on hand because I like to have somebody to take electric attacks and Thunder Waves without being harmed. Fighting-types, Ground-types, and maybe even Tyranitar are irritated by this thing.

I also chose Gliscor because he is a great Taunter. Not only is Gliscor a good defensive wall; he forces other walls into action with this move, allowing me to stall out foes (if a sandstorm spins around us) or to switch into enemy attacks more easily. Roost also helps stall out foes, as it means the enemy will have to keep hitting me with no visible results. Toxic allows me to wear down defensive Pokemon like Blissey or Rotom more easily.s Earthquake is here mainly so that Gliscor can actually attack when he needs to. I had Yache Berry on here to protect Gliscor from an ice attack, but since then, I have dug up some Leftovers for Gliscor to snack on while stalling.
Why I'm retiring him: I wanted to try Flygon, and not only is he working out really well, but he's a lot more fun to play with. Plus, outspeeding Dragon Dance Dragonite is a huge boon.




So, there you go. Rate it, hate it, levitate it, whatever. Suggest anything I can do to bring some flavor to this team, but please keep it functional.
 
This is a good team but i would recommend changing your gliscor to a stallbreaking gliscor with taunt, eq, roost, toxic. It still beats lucario and tyranitar and walls fighters to death but can also own stuff like bliss and forry commonly used on stall with taunt. The most important item to change would be from yache to leftovers. I see no point in yache as you have 4 ice resists. Good luck with your team. I think you might also want to change your starmie to a life orb variant as it hurts offensive teams very much especially in the late game as no offensive team have sweepers fast enough before a boost to beat a starmie.
 
Hello. At a glance, an attacking Lead Machamp will pose a dangerous threat to your team. Utilizing Payback, DynamicPunch and Ice Punch, Machamp will force you to sacrifice one of your Pokes or it will gradually wear down most of your Pokemons because of the constant switching. The easiest way to alleviate this weakness is to change your Azelf lead to the Colbur set. Use the following moveset (Jolly Nature): SR | U-turn | Taunt | Explosion with 8 HP / 140 Atk / 144 SpD / 216 Spe and Colbur Berry as an item. This goal of this set is to negate the need for Focus Sash by opting for a more defensive EV spread to be able to beat Machamp leads (TTar leads as well).

While this team certainly has insurance against most offensive threats, it unfortunately has a gapping weakness to stall teams. Nothing on this team is stopping stall from walling this team by switching in and out accordingly. Rotom-A will also prove to be as annoying, once again reiterating a stall problem. It just simply spams Will-o-Wisp and Thunderbolts which your team is vulnerable to. With all that being said, I'm going to strongly advocate using Toxic instead of U-turn on Gliscor. Toxic will give you a handy weapon against stall, slowly whittling down the opponent while preventing them from healing using Taunt. I would also reccomend using Leftovers over Yache Berry as you already have multiple switch-ins to Ice- type attacks. Finally, just max out speed (252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe) to at least tie against opposing Gliscor that run max speed and outspeed those that don't. LO Starmie is also an excellent suggestion as it improves your team's offensive capabilities while not compromising your team's ability to deal with threats meaning that you can afford to remove Starmie's Scarf. Just go for something along the lines of: Surf | Ice Beam | Thunderbolt | Recover with a 252/252 EV spread, LO and a Timid Nature.

As for minor changes, using 252 HP EVs on Scizor maxes out the amount of damage taken by entry hazards so stick with 248 HP EVs to minimize the damage taken while switching in. On Vaporeon, 68 speed EVs seem rather unnecessary, try using an EV spread of 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe which allows you to outspeed Scizor that invest 8 EVs in speed while maximizing Vaporeon's ability to take hits. Other than that, good luck with your team.
 
Hey, there are a few threats I'm going to address in this rate, that can give you a headache. Firstly, Dragon Dance Dragonite can come in on Starmie locked into Rapid Spin or Scizor locked into SuperPower, set-up a DragonDance and dismantle your entire team with repeated Dragon Claws and Earthquakes. Starmie is handled by a +1 Adamant ExtremeSpeed, especially since its Mild Natured, it will always be KOed after Stealth Rock. Offensive Suicune is another deadly threat, that can come in on Scizor or Starmie locked into a resisted move, set-up a calm mind, hit your entire team with Hydro Pumps, bar Vaporeon and Starmie who are hit hard by Hidden power Electric, while their electirc attacks won't be doing much without any boost. Chesto Rest Kingdra can also be very threatening to face, as it can set-up multiple DDs on Choice locked Scizor and Starmie and sweep your team outright.

To remedy the list of aforementioned threats, replace Gliscor with Choice Scarf Flygon, Max Speed and Attack, Jolly Nature, Outrage|Earthquake|U-turn|Fire Blast. This will let you defeat Kingdra with +1 boost as well as Dragonite as +1. Flygon also pairs incredibly well with Choice Band Scizor, forming a potent U-turning team and covering each other's weaknesses completely. I thought to myself that you already have a solid check to Gyarados in Vaporeon, so ThunderPunch/Stone Edge wouldn't have made sense, instead you have a better chance with fire blast in hitting opposing stall team's Forretress and Skarmory, expecting a resisted Outrage, and then go running back into their pokeballs. Now since you already have a choice scarfer, and to cover the gapping Suicune weakness, replace Starmie with Life Orb Shaymin, Timid Nature and a moveset of Seed Flare|EarthPower|Hidden Power Fire|rest. This handles all the bulky waters/offensive waters that your team may run into and has very good coverage with its three moves, and you can also fall back on it as a last ditch Jolteon switch-in in case Flygon has gone down due to some misplay

So tl;dr
Scarf flygon>Gliscor
Life Orb Shaymin>Starmie

GL
 
So, I've been doing a bit of testing with some of the suggestions, and here's what I've found, so far.

Colbur Berry Azelf
I finally got my Jolly Azelf, so I've been testing this out. I know some people in real life who have been using more Bug attacks in their leads than Dark attacks (most notably, Yanmega), so against them I've been using Tanga Berry instead. Otherwise, it's the same defensive stats as the standard Colbur lead. I'm liking this lead. Azelf is able to withstand attacks much better, and I can either U-Turn away to save a meat shield or a bomb for later, or just blow up then. The best way I can think of to deal with Yanmega specifically is set up Stealth Rock while they Detect on Turn 1. Then, I explode. The problem is that Yanmega will still have 1 HP due to its Focus Sash. Then again, Scizor can scare Yanmega out with Bullet Punch. I have Rock up, so if Yanmega's dumb enough to come in again, it's dead.
Verdict: Yay

Flygon
This Pokemon rules. I love how I can hit and run with a fast U-Turn, and often times, Flygon manages to end it with a quick Earthquake or Outrage. I'm also glad that I still have a Pokemon immune to electricity, even Thunder Wave (which thankfully STILL happens in Black and White, after all) and someone not bothered by any entry hazards. I think I'll keep him over Gliscor, who was defensive, but not very powerful.
Verdict: Yay

Life Orb Starmie
I kinda wanted this to happen anyway. Starmie's speed is better supported by having more versatility. And having a check to Pokemon like Dragonite and Gyarados helps a lot. I kept Starmie's Hydro Pump for the extra umph.
Verdict: Yay

Shaymin
I realize that bulky water-types pretty much cower in fear facing this cute beast. Milotic? Slowbro? Vaporeon? Even Suicune goes down in one Seed Flare if it hasn't used Calm Mind yet. However, I think I'm using her wrong. I'm trying to use her like I would Starmie: (not against the same Pokemon, of course! That'd be dumb.) outspeed threats and beat them down. However, Shaymin is a lot slower than I expected. Making her a Starmie replacement was a bad idea, I think.
I like having Starmie on this team, especially now that she has a Life Orb. She can hit a wide variety of opponents with those three powerful attacks. But more importantly, I prefer Starmie in this case because, being a Psychic-type, Starmie draws in Pursuers who make switching Lucario in easier. Shaymin will attract U-Turn users, sure. But U-Turn users will immediately switch out after that.
Because I have qualms about putting Shaymin in Starmie's place, I'd like to get thoughts on one idea. What if I put in Shaymin instead of Vaporeon? Vaporeon is bulkier, yes, but I'm not always comfortable with her power output. If I do this, then I'd probably replace Hydro Pump with Surf to get a more accurate Water attack.
Verdict: Unsure, may replace Vaporeon.

SubSplit Gengar
One night, I tested out SubSplit Gengar on my team instead of Scizor while still trying Shaymin out. If I haven't said it before, I like having a Dark-weak Pokemon to get Lucario in battle more easily. I liked what Gengar was doing, and having a Pokemon to keep my Rocks up (and block Explosion entirely) is nice. But I missed having my Scout and Priority attacker, and my team was left more weak to Dragon attacks (BAD!!!). I might use this guy on another team later, but I can't fit Gengar in this one. Scizor's pretty important to me.
Verdict: Nay.

So, yeah. I've tested. I like some of these suggestions. But I want to get some more experienced thoughts on some queries I have.
1.) If I placed Shaymin in place of Vaporeon instead of Starmie, how might I benefit or suffer?
2.) If you guys dislike me replacing my Vaporeon, I still would like a Psychic or Ghost Pokemon on the team somewhere. It provides me with better tolerance to Fighting attacks and helps lure in Dark attacks. Ideas?

Thanks for any additional help, and sorry if I'm breaking any rules by reviving this thread.
 
Hi RM,

I like this team quite a bit! I've been using a pretty similar team based around SD Lucario for a long team, so I think I can help out a bit from experience. The previous two raters have ironed out the main problems with the team, so there's not much left to change.

One thing I'd like to point out is that your team currently possesses a weakness to opposing LO Starmie, who can 2HKO each of your members. Offensive Grass-types like Shaymin can also be somewhat troublesome, since nothing on your team particularly enjoys switching into a strong Seed Flare except Scizor. However, Shaymin and Celebi both run HP Fire fairly often for the purpose of hitting Steel-types that try to switch in, so Scizor is not a reliable counter in this regard. To help fix your problems with both of the aforementioned threats, I'd like to recommend a great set that I've been telling some other people about lately: Passho Berry Heatran.


Heatran @ Passho Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Mild nature (+SpA, -Def)
- Explosion
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power Grass

This Heatran set makes an excellent initial switch-in to Grass-type attacks, and also alleviates your stall weakness somewhat. The EVs are enough to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar, with the rest invested in HP to gain a bit of extra bulk. A Mild nature and max EVs in special attack ensure that Heatran's attacks hit very hard, and it possesses enough coverage to dish out significant damage to a variety of opposing Pokemon. Fire Blast is the strongest-hitting option, but Flamethrower is a good alternative option for its higher accuracy. Hidden Power Grass is very useful for KOing Swampert after a bit of previous damage; Swampert is somewhat troublesome for your team to take out, so this addition is quite an appreciated change. Earth Power is mostly filler, but can pay off if you manage to predict an opposing Heatran switch-in and KO it. And finally, Explosion is perhaps the most useful move on this set. With a Passho Berry equipped, Heatran can survive even a LO Starmie's Hydro Pump and KO back with Explosion (or HP Grass if Starmie is weakened), taking out one of the biggest offensive threats to your team. Explosion is also excellent for taking down special walls such as Blissey or Snorlax, who will no longer be able to deter Starmie from sweeping the opposing team after being KO'd.

Also, I think that a Jolly nature may be worth trying out on Lucario. It does decrease its damage output somewhat, but this usually isn't much of a loss considering Lucario is brought out late-game. Using a Jolly nature allows Lucario to outspeed all non-Scarfed Rotom-A and Adamant Lucario. The extra speed can often make the difference between a successful and unsuccessful sweep in these situations. Finally, Rapid Spin is an option worthy of consideration over Recover on Starmie. It does mean you lose out on recovery, but it gives you a further advantage against stall teams, allowing you to remove their entry hazards, and makes it easier for your team to switch around safely.

Good luck with your team!
 

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