Anything Goes Resources

One of the things that make FEAR not very good in any tier is the amount of support needed to pull it off (e.g. accounting for hazards, obvious threats). Off the top of my head, Arceus (STEEL, POISON) formes use Substitute a lot, but there are probably others, at least some of which threaten Magnemite. On a side note, while this is kind of a summary, generally almost all teams have a way to deal with Fear pokemon.
Like Zangooser said, if Magnemite is ranked, Aron should be ranked. They're basically on par with each other, and are bad for the same reasons.
Try to clean up your posts a bit. You always try to cover every topic concerning the mon, but not in detail, which makes your stance on those parts a bit iffy sometimes. There are also some unnecessary parts of your posts usually, it makes the post a bit harder to read.
No comment on Glalie because never used it before.
I'm sorry, last I checked, Steelceus only have three main variants. CM (probably most common and viable), Xern counter (uses Defog or T-Wave), or SD (which is uncommon). The only Poisonceus I've seen is SD.

As for this quote: "No comment on Glalie because never used it before."

Does that mean you used Aron and Magnemite before? lel.
 
I'm sorry, last I checked, Steelceus only have three main variants. CM (probably most common and viable), Xern counter (uses Defog or T-Wave), or SD (which is uncommon). The only Poisonceus I've seen is SD.

As for this quote: "No comment on Glalie because never used it before."

Does that mean you used Aron and Magnemite before? lel.
Yes I have tried to squeeze them on legit teams and also just for some dumb achievements.
You are probably right on the fact that both do not often use Substitute, however, both can just PP stall it. Discount that point otherwise then.
 

chlo

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But, but, the magnet can beat SR via Rapid Spin support or Magic Coating when necessary. Steel type = Volt Switch on the switch in. Substitute beats the shit out of it, but only Darkrai uses it, right? Surely, no Steel/Poison Pokemon use it, so Toxic on the switch in is possible, making substitute an option for revenge killers. One can easily predict around the person who is trying to predict the Magic Coat, so your argument is kind flawed too. Also, I don't see Zekrom, RIP Zekrom. Taunt = Magic Coat. Magic Coat or Magic Bounce doesn't work, as Magnemite is immune to its own Toxic. I kind of forgot about Poison types, forgive me. Multi-hit moves, eh. Still, Magnemite is a good mon for a person with the ability to predict like a god. Otherwise, it's utter garbage. I was claiming that it deserves a mention, as it's probably less gimmicky than that stupid Articuno.
Oh I see, Rapid Spin rids of Stealth Rock? Everything is so much clearer now. Rapid Spin is such a relevant move in AG, I mean look at that distribution. It's so simple, how can hazards hurt a team when hazard removal exists?

Volt Switching on a Steel type switch in sounds easier than it actually is. This is not difficult to predict after the Volt Switch had been revealed. Substitute is common on at least four top tier mons, Darkrai, Klefki, Ho-Oh and Lugia.

Then you state Toxic on the switchin. Why do you assume you're going to correctly predict every play your opponent makes. They can easily attack and force the Recycle.

Excuse me, my argument is flawed?! I mean like, you're arguing this thing is viable, I'm trying to tell you it isn't. Listen to me for once, I have factual evidence to support rather than a bunch of whatifs that fail if you predict one turn wrong.

You don't see Zekrom? Ah, must mean this Pokémon is viable because "you don't see" its check. We might as well rate Arceus D rank, because YOU run into mono Skarmory teams a lot.

Magic Bounce isn't supposed to Toxic you, but without Toxic on the opposing mon, you can't kill it.

And we should unrank Articuno, it's garbage as well.

I'm sorry, last I checked, Steelceus only have three main variants. CM (probably most common and viable), Xern counter (uses Defog or T-Wave), or SD (which is uncommon). The only Poisonceus I've seen is SD.

As for this quote: "No comment on Glalie because never used it before."

Does that mean you used Aron and Magnemite before? lel.
I've used Aron and Magnemite, but not Glalie. What is your point here?

Rant over, we are not ranking Magnemite.
 
Oh I see, Rapid Spin rids of Stealth Rock? Everything is so much clearer now. Rapid Spin is such a relevant move in AG, I mean look at that distribution. It's so simple, how can hazards hurt a team when hazard removal exists?

Volt Switching on a Steel type switch in sounds easier than it actually is. This is not difficult to predict after the Volt Switch had been revealed. Substitute is common on at least four top tier mons, Darkrai, Klefki, Ho-Oh and Lugia.

Then you state Toxic on the switchin. Why do you assume you're going to correctly predict every play your opponent makes. They can easily attack and force the Recycle.

Excuse me, my argument is flawed?! I mean like, you're arguing this thing is viable, I'm trying to tell you it isn't. Listen to me for once, I have factual evidence to support rather than a bunch of whatifs that fail if you predict one turn wrong.

You don't see Zekrom? Ah, must mean this Pokémon is viable because "you don't see" its check. We might as well rate Arceus D rank, because YOU run into mono Skarmory teams a lot.

Magic Bounce isn't supposed to Toxic you, but without Toxic on the opposing mon, you can't kill it.

And we should unrank Articuno, it's garbage as well.



I've used Aron and Magnemite, but not Glalie. What is your point here?

Rant over, we are not ranking Magnemite.
But.. the whole point that I was trying to make was that a person with perfect prediction skills would be able to make Magnemite one of the best mons in AG. Not saying that anyone can actually do it.. But yes, please unrank Articuno. It's garbage.

Magnemite is perfectly "viable" if used properly. With that said, this mon is practically impossible to "use properly." That would mean that it is practically impossible to be viable.

Also, Sub Ho-oh and Lugia, as good as they are, seem to be non-existent. Sub Ho-oh is probably more scarce than Lugia, and many idiots at 1400 ratings seem to run stupid moves like Aeroblast. (RIP Lugia, I never see it these days)

Fine, rant over. Still, you've actually tried both Aron and Magnemite before, lel. I tried Magnemite and that got me 1 win 1 loss, kinda sad, but alright for a team I made in 3 minutes (also considering that my opponents were 1600-1700s). I need to try Aron and Articuno now... So, can we have Glalie on at least D rank? I think it should be at C at least, and B at most, but it will be a start.
 

MZ

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There is no "viable if used properly". Every Pokemon is unviable if used improperly (level 1 Pdon, CB Lugia). Every Pokemon is ranked under ideal conditions, not two idiots using random teams who don't know how to play the game because that doesn't give an accurate representation of viability. Always assume best play. That being said, I think it's pretty obvious Magnemite is an awful nomination that won't happen
edit @ below: You can go 1-100 in integers. And please stop talking
 
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There is no "viable if used properly". Every Pokemon is unviable if used improperly (level 1 Pdon, CB Lugia). Every Pokemon is ranked under ideal conditions, not two idiots using random teams who don't know how to play the game because that doesn't give an accurate representation of viability. Always assume best play. That being said, I think it's pretty obvious Magnemite is an awful nomination that won't happen
I'd like to see a person using Level 1 P-don in AG. Please, please, just, show me. I don't care how you do it. Just do it.
"Always assume best play." Okay, Magnemite can go to A+ rank with that logic, pretty sure. It only requires 90% hax to land a Toxic, and when payed with absolute perfection of prediction, it can only be beaten by revenge kill Arena Trap mons with substitute, PP stallers, or revenge kill Pokemon with Mold Breaker and Pursuit (once again, revenge kill only. And only Cranidos, Druddigon, and Rampardos has access to this combination). I can't tell if you're serious or not. Pretty much all of Zangooser's counter to Magnemite relied on hazards or the fact that the opponent mispredicts, too. In a perfect situation, a Magnemite would live for at least 17 turns (considering no burn/freeze hax) and probably would screw up a lot of Pokemon in a metagame where most Pokemon have 8 PP attacking moves. Magnemite also beats stuff like GeoXern shave off a lot of PP from Arceus or Rayquaza, and just annoy the shit out of many non-attacking Pokemon with no prediction skills needed. Magnemite isn't terrible because it has no tools, it's terrible because no human can keep predicting properly forever, and it gets punished with a mispredict by death, while the opponent won't be punished nearly as hard. In other words, if it can constantly keep predicting properly, it can deal a lot of damage for the opposing team.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
Just to weigh in, Magnemite is dead weight against Hazards, Fake Out, Magic Bounce (notably Diancie), Knock Off, Trick (and all other ways of removing an item), Substitute *anything* (notably BP teams and Darkrai, and Darkrai will get a sub up even if you switch to whatever Darkrai counter you have which will now be asleep), Refresh/Lum/Magic Coat Arceus, Mold Breaker, a well-predicted Taunt, Protect+Disable M-Gengar (optionally with Taunt as well), Voltturn, literally any Steel or Poison type, Magic Guard, Stray burns from Scald so like 60% of water types, Resttalk, and more niche crap things like Nido's and Hail. It shouldn't be ranked.

Edit:
I'd like to see a person using Level 1 P-don in AG. Please, please, just, show me. I don't care how you do it. Just do it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-312543717
(it actually puts in work, too)
 
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Just to weigh in, Magnemite is dead weight against Hazards, Fake Out, Magic Bounce (notably Diancie), Knock Off, Trick (and all other ways of removing an item), Substitute *anything* (notably BP teams and Darkrai, and Darkrai will get a sub up even if you switch to whatever Darkrai counter you have which will now be asleep), Refresh/Lum/Magic Coat Arceus, Mold Breaker, a well-predicted Taunt, Protect+Disable M-Gengar (optionally with Taunt as well), Voltturn, literally any Steel or Poison type, Magic Guard, Stray burns from Scald so like 60% of water types, Resttalk, and more niche crap things like Nido's and Hail. It shouldn't be ranked.

Edit:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-312543717
(it actually puts in work, too)
How the hell do you get a level 1 Groudon? Isn't the minimum level like 45? Or is this some stupid event I forgot about? Also, Diancie = Volt Switch on the switch in. Fake Out = stay in if you currently have Berry Juice, and switch out if you don't. Besides, unless it's a revenge killer, you can Volt Switch on any Pokemon carrying that move as it comes in. Knock Off... shiiit, forgot. Volt Switch on switch in. Substitute anything can only work as a revenge killer, unless they are immune to Toxic on the switch in (or, they use Aromatherapy), M-Gengar = Volt Switch on the switch in, or use a filler move on its Protect, and then use Volt Switch afterwards. VoltTurn, ah, might be a solid option, if the Steel or Poison type had Substitute or a multi-hit move. While Mag will be useless, it's not like Sturdy doesn't work on them. And still Volt Switch on the switch in. Lum Arceus = Toxic twice. Only problem is that Magic Coat has more PP than Toxic, so keep alternating moves, or just switch out. Mold Breaker needs pursuit. Well predicted doesn't work in this case, because it's at its best potential. Scald = haxxy, but I guess you could get hit by Scald, get burned, Berry Juice activates, and Volt Switch before the burn damage, to live another turn or to use an Aromatherapist. Magic Guard, welp. Yeah, that's a genuine counter. Volt Switch out before it set up boosts. RestTalk = Darkrai set up bait, tbh. What does Nido do? And Hail is bad for the same reason Aron + Sandstorm is bad. Well, I never actually said it deserves to be ranked... I said it's a terrible Pokemon. It's just that using one slot to beat everything but pretty much Steel Types, Darkrai, and M-Diancie is pretty good. It just means that you pair it with a MMX, Ho-oh, or M-Diancie and you can beat almost all of its counters, considering a person can predict perfectly. (Which nobody can.) And the good thing is, all you need is pretty much MMX and Magnemite to screw up 99% of the ladder, in theory.

Also, Level 1 Groudon... How? I know how to get a level 1 Dialga, but a Groudon? Wut? Is there a Level 1 Kyogre? Level 1 Ray? I'd totally love to see where that came from.
 

Josh

=P
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I am officially ending the discussion on low level mons, fear or otherwise. Any points mentioned thus far have been looked at, and we are not ranking, or discussing the mons. This is getting ridiculous. If you really want to discuss them, do it in the ladder thread.
 
Let's Discuss:
S --> A+
D --> Unranked
Unranked --> C-

And anything else that you believe is ranked incorrectly, as long as it's not a stupid crappy magnet with little to no viability in any metagame except LC.
I went on the internet for hours, trying to find a legit way to get a level 1 Groudon without relying on stupid Emerald glitches. I found no events or anything, what the hell am I doing wrong?

On a more serious note, thanks for the Articuno and Glalie. I agree on Klefki too. Now my only concern is why Ray doesn't move to C-, and why Blissey, Chansey, and Clefable is in D rank. I think they should be on C- or C.

Ray's only niche is beating P-Don with Surf, and that's it. Nothing else. That's something Mega Ray can do too, by not Mega Evolving on purpose for one extra turn, when it confirmed P-Don's death. If the opponent knows you have Surf, they aren't going to stay in anyways. You might as well as put Golduck on C- tier, because it does the same roll other than its lack of E-speed and surprise factor, and the inability to outspeed Max Speed Jolly in trade for the ability to use Clear Smog, Encore, and the lack of weakness of Stealth Rocks.

As for Blissey, Chansey, and Clefable, just look at them! They can all offer SR, Heal Bell, Aromatherapy, Wish, and Softboiled. Clefable has the coveted Unaware, making it effective checks against Arceus (SD or CM, as long as it doesn't have a super effective move), Xerneas, and Darkrai. (Three S ranks right there) Blissey and Chansey has Natural Care, meaning they can keep applying pressure to Darkrai by switching in and out (maybe coupled with Ho-oh). (Darkrai loses if it can't get boosts fast enough, or lacks taunt, as Void doesn't have perfect accuracy, and Seismic Toss will do some damage) They can also pressure Xerneas with T-wave or Toxic, and easily beat Klefki (former S rank). They even serve as good cushions to Yveltal, if you lack easy answers to them. (Well, Taunt is a thing) I think they deserve the same respect Sakrmory or Ferrothorn gets. The two Pokemon has also shown good results on the ladder, as well.

Also, how do I get a level 1 Groudon? Someone send me a link pls...
 

MZ

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I went on the internet for hours, trying to find a legit way to get a level 1 Groudon without relying on stupid Emerald glitches. I found no events or anything, what the hell am I doing wrong?
I generally just go on PS!, select Primal Groudon, then set the level to 1 in teambuilder, but if you have a different idea then go for it

On a more serious note, thanks for the Articuno and Glalie. I agree on Klefki too. Now my only concern is why Ray doesn't move to C-, and why Blissey, Chansey, and Clefable is in D rank. I think they should be on C- or C.

Ray's only niche is beating P-Don with Surf, and that's it. Nothing else. That's something Mega Ray can do too, by not Mega Evolving on purpose for one extra turn, when it confirmed P-Don's death. If the opponent knows you have Surf, they aren't going to stay in anyways. You might as well as put Golduck on C- tier, because it does the same roll other than its lack of E-speed and surprise factor, and the inability to outspeed Max Speed Jolly in trade for the ability to use Clear Smog, Encore, and the lack of weakness of Stealth Rocks.
Why do you have to wait to not Mega Evolve for 1 extra turn? Once you Mega, Strong Winds are up and not Harsh Sunlight. In fact, this totally ignores Ray's actual niche, which is not taking up a Mega slot while still being a very good, strong wallbreaker. There is opportunity cost by not being Mega which is better, but Mega also comes with the opportunity cost of losing space for Mega Diancie/Mewtwo/Sableye/whatever. C is fine, maybe C- if people think it's bad in practice but let's not drop this because people don't know what it does. As for Golduck, the whole comparison is based on an incorrect assumption so w/e

As for Blissey, Chansey, and Clefable, just look at them! They can all offer SR, Heal Bell, Aromatherapy, Wish, and Softboiled. Clefable has the coveted Unaware, making it effective checks against Arceus (SD or CM, as long as it doesn't have a super effective move), Xerneas, and Darkrai. (Three S ranks right there) Blissey and Chansey has Natural Care, meaning they can keep applying pressure to Darkrai by switching in and out (maybe coupled with Ho-oh). (Darkrai loses if it can't get boosts fast enough, or lacks taunt, as Void doesn't have perfect accuracy, and Seismic Toss will do some damage) They can also pressure Xerneas with T-wave or Toxic, and easily beat Klefki (former S rank). They even serve as good cushions to Yveltal, if you lack easy answers to them. (Well, Taunt is a thing) I think they deserve the same respect Sakrmory or Ferrothorn gets. The two Pokemon has also shown good results on the ladder, as well.
I don't think these things are nearly on Skarm or Ferro level. I did make a post saying that if people have actually used them they should talk because D seems too low for something with their utility, but B- would be pushing it when all 3 are mostly only able to fit on stall which isn't a particularly good playstyle and come with zero offensive presence, don't really have any other options that can be easily fit and are fodder for a fairly wide pool of relevant mons, even if they do wall their own group. Clefable is also a poor Darkrai check, Dark Void+Sludge Bomb can get past it without significant hax, and Chansey/Blissey don't really pressure Darkrai by switching in and out if it's Nasty Plot (or sub np would be even worse). So yeah I agree that a rise might be in order but not with this reasoning or the place.
 
I generally just go on PS!, select Primal Groudon, then set the level to 1 in teambuilder, but if you have a different idea then go for it

On a more serious note, thanks for the Articuno and Glalie. I agree on Klefki too. Now my only concern is why Ray doesn't move to C-, and why Blissey, Chansey, and Clefable is in D rank. I think they should be on C- or C.


Why do you have to wait to not Mega Evolve for 1 extra turn? Once you Mega, Strong Winds are up and not Harsh Sunlight. In fact, this totally ignores Ray's actual niche, which is not taking up a Mega slot while still being a very good, strong wallbreaker. There is opportunity cost by not being Mega which is better, but Mega also comes with the opportunity cost of losing space for Mega Diancie/Mewtwo/Sableye/whatever. C is fine, maybe C- if people think it's bad in practice but let's not drop this because people don't know what it does. As for Golduck, the whole comparison is based on an incorrect assumption so w/e


I don't think these things are nearly on Skarm or Ferro level. I did make a post saying that if people have actually used them they should talk because D seems too low for something with their utility, but B- would be pushing it when all 3 are mostly only able to fit on stall which isn't a particularly good playstyle and come with zero offensive presence, don't really have any other options that can be easily fit and are fodder for a fairly wide pool of relevant mons, even if they do wall their own group. Clefable is also a poor Darkrai check, Dark Void+Sludge Bomb can get past it without significant hax, and Chansey/Blissey don't really pressure Darkrai by switching in and out if it's Nasty Plot (or sub np would be even worse). So yeah I agree that a rise might be in order but not with this reasoning or the place.
Clefable doesn't get completely destroyed by Sludge Bomb Darkrai if it doesn't carry Substitute.

252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 212 HP / 216+ SpD Clefable: 160-190 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Well, my set for Clefable, some may run a bulkier or frailer EV spread)

This means that, without getting three turn sleep, Clefable can deal a lot of damage with Moon Blast (around 70 to 90%). And there is also the 20% chance of Dark Void missing in the first place. Besides, if it is running a set of Dark Void, Pulse, Bomb, and Sub, it will easily be walled by a slightly bulky mon with a move like Recover. Also, not all Darkrai seems to run max SpA these days. (Ugh, I once met a NP, DV, Bomb, DP, that was so weak)

+6 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 313-369 (48 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO

+6 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 274-324 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Darkrai will need a lot of set up time to beat Blissey, and that's with no Lefties. Eh, I guess Darkrai still wins in this case. Good thing they still beat the shit out of all Swag Play users, for the most part, and offers so many support moves.

It's true that they all pretty much work on only stall teams, but Skarm and Ferro seems to be the same, tbh. Especially Ferro. Skarm might be better than Ferro in the sense.

As for Ray, Desolate Land can wipe off Delta Stream from play, so it's sometimes better to run Air Lock, as it ensures kills against a team with multiple Groudons. And anything Ray can do, pretty damn sure Arceus can do better. Please name me one thing, lol. If it's a Stall Breaker, Arceus has the move pools. If it's a Band/Scarf set, sure. Special Attacks too. Arceus also has way more sets than Ray, and is more unpredictable. Ray's only niche is DD, which doesn't matter when SD Arceus is better than DD Ray in every situation but beating something like Scarf Genesect or using Draco Meteor/Surf to as a coverage move to beat Gira/P-don. And how often does that happen?

Level 1 Groudon pls...
 

MZ

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Clefable doesn't get completely destroyed by Sludge Bomb Darkrai if it doesn't carry Substitute.

252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 212 HP / 216+ SpD Clefable: 160-190 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Well, my set for Clefable, some may run a bulkier or frailer EV spread)

This means that, without getting three turn sleep, Clefable can deal a lot of damage with Moon Blast (around 70 to 90%). And there is also the 20% chance of Dark Void missing in the first place. Besides, if it is running a set of Dark Void, Pulse, Bomb, and Sub, it will easily be walled by a slightly bulky mon with a move like Recover. Also, not all Darkrai seems to run max SpA these days. (Ugh, I once met a NP, DV, Bomb, DP, that was so weak)

+6 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 313-369 (48 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO

+6 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 274-324 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Darkrai will need a lot of set up time to beat Blissey, and that's with no Lefties. Eh, I guess Darkrai still wins in this case. Good thing they still beat the shit out of all Swag Play users, for the most part, and offers so many support moves.

It's true that they all pretty much work on only stall teams, but Skarm and Ferro seems to be the same, tbh. Especially Ferro. Skarm might be better than Ferro in the sense.

As for Ray, Desolate Land can wipe off Delta Stream from play, so it's sometimes better to run Air Lock, as it ensures kills against a team with multiple Groudons. And anything Ray can do, pretty damn sure Arceus can do better. Please name me one thing, lol. If it's a Stall Breaker, Arceus has the move pools. If it's a Band/Scarf set, sure. Special Attacks too. Arceus also has way more sets than Ray, and is more unpredictable. Ray's only niche is DD, which doesn't matter when SD Arceus is better than DD Ray in every situation but beating something like Scarf Genesect or using Draco Meteor/Surf to as a coverage move to beat Gira/P-don. And how often does that happen?

Level 1 Groudon pls...
It was just an example for how to improperly use a Pokemon, please stop spending so much time on it. I'm fairly certain non-max special attack darkrai sucks. And as for the last part, do I really have to answer how ray has a niche? Just look it up on smogdex or somth but if you don't know what you're talking about then don't bother writing a paragraph about it
 
Hello friends!
After taking somewhat of a hiatus from AG, I've finally got myself back into metagame once again, and am deciding to grace you all with some Gunner strats~. S/os to Megazard for hosting AG mini-tour, which is the primary reason I started playing competitively again. Since I've been building a lot recently, I've been trying to come up with some underrated sets. Let's begin with the first one:




Excadrill (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic/Rock Tomb
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin

Pros: The roll of the above Pokemon, Excadrill, is that of a suicide lead, which guarantees Stealth Rock on the opposing field as well as avoiding hazards for your own team. Toxic is non-standard and can sometimes help status support Arceus, on the contrary, Rock Tomb gives better coverage versus flying types, in particular, Mega-Rayquaza. This Pokemon's ability to lay crucial hazards on the field facilitates teammates such as Arceus/Mega-Rayquaza/Darkrai/Mewtwo pressurize anti-hazard Pokemon and/or provide sweeping opportunities. Excadrill's unique Mold Breaker ability allows it to set up Stealth Rock vs Magic Bouncers like Mega-Sableye and Mega-Diancie too.

Cons: Due to its lack of high speed, it can sometimes be Darkrai/Taunt bait. It is also susceptible to being set up on by Arceus/Mega-Ray, if played against correctly.

In my attempt to improvise an excellent team around Excadrill, I've built a team which can be found here. I paired Excadrill with partners such as Life Orb Arceus Extreme Killer to better combat Mega-Rayquaza as well as Lum Berry Magic Coat Arceus Extreme Killer to better combat Darkrai and support Arceus'. This team has earned ladder success and diminutive tournament success. (Won semi-final game 1 vs cirdec)




Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SpA / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Swagger
- Dazzling Gleam
- Sleep Talk

I decided to use Klefki in a more tactical way, neglecting its SwagPlay set and developing a new anti-darkrai Klefki set. This set is a 100% switch-in to Darkrai and can potentially cripple it with Sleep Talk. It has also been EV'd to 2HKO Mega-Sableye. This set can definitely fit teams searching for a Darkrai check as well as a momentum killer, as Klefki occupies both roles with ease. A team which I've built featuring this set can be found here.







Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Slam
- Iron Defense
- Roost
- Defog / Dragon Tail

Mega-Salamence, the Pokemon which is completely outclassed offensively by the likes of Mega-Rayquaza, does bear an alternative special niche. It has the ability to fit on more defensive teams; with its colossal base 95 HP and 130 Defense, it possesses the finesse of being able to wall potent offensive threats in Arceus Extreme Killer/Arceus-Ghost/Arceus-Ground, and to some extent, Mega-Rayquaza. It also has access to Defog, an intrinsic utility move. Body Slam also acts as a fantastic STAB move, reaching 110 base power after Aerilate boost, besides already enthralling the chance of spreading Paralysis. I haven't constructed any solid team with this Pokemon yet, but I'm willing to see more discussion about this Pokemon's viability, moreover, any teambuilding ideas/cores around it. Here's my attempt to build a team around it.

That's all for now. Hope this can spark some interesting discussion~
 
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Let's Discuss:
S --> A+
D --> Unranked
Unranked --> C-

And anything else that you believe is ranked incorrectly, as long as it's not a stupid crappy magnet with little to no viability in any metagame except LC.
Well, let me start off by saying that I am personally not an admirer of swagplay. I think it's cheap, disgusting and requires zero skill. I struggle to look at myself in the mirror when I use it.
BUT, it is one of the most effective style of play in AG and can change the game entirely if the opponent isn't prepared for it/his swagkey checks have been eliminated. The argument that lumceus is an answer isn't valid, imo, since it isn't a switch in, at all. It relies heavily on luck, yes, but twave/swagger cripple almost every team together, if not not sweep. This allows others mons that usually wouldn't outspeed, to outspeed and kill. I'm not against the spikes variation, either. It's annoying AF, but it perhaps is one of the most viable mons in the meta.

Articuno is not viable at all, imo. I haven't seen anyone use it right and neither do I imagine I ever will. Awful defensive typing, disgusting rocks weakness and no real coverage. It should be unranked ASAP.

I always believed Glalie was a piece of shit mon. But, after being wrecked by LLW's glalie spam, I have a slightly different view. While it still is highly unreliable and can be checked and eliminated easily, it is not as horrible as I thought it was. Also, Glalie's hunt much better in pairs, and glalie spam is not something to be trifled with. I agree on it being C-, as it isn't reliable enough to be any higher, and it being one of the best moody users (which is a game changing ability) shouldn't let it drop any lower.
 
Well, let me start off by saying that I am personally not an admirer of swagplay. I think it's cheap, disgusting and requires zero skill. I struggle to look at myself in the mirror when I use it.
lolazo

Anyway, I'm all up for demoting Klefki from S ----> A+ rank, simply because of how inefficient it is as opposed to the likes of Darkrai. Darkrai does a more efficient job of set-up sweeping, whereas Klefki's performance is largely determined on the basis of the game's RNG. I simply don't believe it is on the same level as any of the Pokemon in S rank. It's also easily checked with the recurrent Lum Berry mons jajaja you know the drill.
 
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Klefki isn't countered by Lum Berry, I dunno where this keeps coming from. Not a single Lum Berry mon can switch in, bar regular Groudon on a twave prediction (lol). Most of them can't even safely revenge if Klefki is behind a sub. And most of them rely on ground coverage to hit keys, so magnet rise ends that as well.

I support Klefki to A+ btw because it's not as consistently amazing as the other S rank threats, but dont give bad arguments please.
I meant to say 'checked,' fixed
How am I giving a bad argument? Please elaborate.

Edit: I hope you know Magnet Rise Klefki loses out on either Sub/Twave/Foul Play/Swagger, which makes Klefki way less efficient, so I kinda don't understand your argument about Magnet Rise. ?_?
 
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Klefki isn't countered by Lum Berry, I dunno where this keeps coming from. Not a single Lum Berry mon can switch in, bar regular Groudon on a twave prediction (lol). Most of them can't even safely revenge if Klefki is behind a sub. And most of them rely on ground coverage to hit keys, so magnet rise ends that as well.

I support Klefki to A+ btw because it's not as consistently amazing as the other S rank threats, but dont give bad arguments please.
I tried switching foul play for magnet rise on the swagkey set. While it handles most lumceus sets pretty well, it just reduces the overall potential of swagkey drastically. I'd stick with the foul play/swagger/twave/sub set for overall impact. And I have to agree with Gunner, it just doesn't have the same presence when it comes to being a legit threat, simply because of its huge reliance on RNG.
But that being said, it is simply unstoppable when it has RNG going its way, and also helps setup a ditto sweep, from your side, if played right. While darkrai doesn't have any significant effects post the opponent waking up from DV (hypothetically, darkrai has been eliminated in this situation), klefki cripples much of the offensive potential of a team with twave even after it is taken out of the equation, allowing you to sweep with other mons. While darkrai is pretty much of a solo mon, klefki provides legitimate support for sweepers to follow.
I am going to reiterate my disdain for swagkey and swagkey spammers, once again. I hate that mon with a blind passion. But I support its S rank in viability. Simply because of its sheer versatility in changing a game and throwing off an opponent's momentum.
 

chlo

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I tried switching foul play for magnet rise on the swagkey set. While it handles most lumceus sets pretty well, it just reduces the overall potential of swagkey drastically. I'd stick with the foul play/swagger/twave/sub set for overall impact. And I have to agree with Gunner, it just doesn't have the same presence when it comes to being a legit threat, simply because of its huge reliance on RNG.
But that being said, it is simply unstoppable when it has RNG going its way, and also helps setup a ditto sweep, from your side, if played right. While darkrai doesn't have any significant effects post the opponent waking up from DV (hypothetically, darkrai has been eliminated in this situation), klefki cripples much of the offensive potential of a team with twave even after it is taken out of the equation, allowing you to sweep with other mons. While darkrai is pretty much of a solo mon, klefki provides legitimate support for sweepers to follow.
I am going to reiterate my disdain for swagkey and swagkey spammers, once again. I hate that mon with a blind passion. But I support its S rank in viability. Simply because of its sheer versatility in changing a game and throwing off an opponent's momentum.
You should absolutely never remove Foul Play out on a Klefki. Why? Because your opponents can actually just switch between two mons freely if you don't have hazards up. Two mons can switch between each other and only be paralysed. If you're going to replace a move on a standard SwagPlay set, Thunder Wave is the best option to remove.

This is why it's so hard to alter the general SwagPlay set. Klefki suffers from extreme 4MSS which disallows it in achieving anything greater than it already can. And while I agree Klefki is a meta defining threat, it is somewhat overrated. I'd like to hear a bit more discussion since this is the first genuine rebuttal to its decrease in rank.

Articuno was unranked, you're all welcome.
 
You should absolutely never remove Foul Play out on a Klefki. Why? Because your opponents can actually just switch between two mons freely if you don't have hazards up. Two mons can switch between each other and only be paralysed. If you're going to replace a move on a standard SwagPlay set, Thunder Wave is the best option to remove.

This is why it's so hard to alter the general SwagPlay set. Klefki suffers from extreme 4MSS which disallows it in achieving anything greater than it already can. And while I agree Klefki is a meta defining threat, it is somewhat overrated. I'd like to hear a bit more discussion since this is the first genuine rebuttal to its decrease in rank.

Articuno was unranked, you're all welcome.

Tbh, removing twave is the worst thing you can do to a swagkey set. While it has little effect in 1v1 battles (as opposed to other moves it carries), it spoils the whole purpose of keeping a swagkey in most teams. Unless you're using 6 swagkeys, removing twave means that the keys offer little support to any other mon you carry and have a very high risk of offering the opponent a free sweep if he doesn't hit himself. Moreover, not carrying twave means that foul play always hits second with klef's mediocre speed. Twave is actually the whole point of even carrying swagkey, to begin with. I don't see how removing it over foul play/swagger is to make any sense, unless you want to rely entirely on RNG.

And yes, the swagkey set is pretty one-dimensional. But is that even bad? It does what its supposed to do, and unless you can name me one legit switch in for klefki (Mdiancie can be flash cannon'd, while msab doesn't even touch klef), I don't see how it having a common set is a problem.

Also, Klefki can be a pretty decent spikes-setter/light clay user, depending on how you use it. The reason why Klefki isn't hyped up that much is because I haven't seen any worthy player use it effectively, other than Gunner. It has a great typing for what it is supposed to do and is one of the few mons that can threaten teams on its own.
 

chlo

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While I agree that the removal of Thunder Wave hinders Klefki a lot, and as I stated it suffers from extreme 4MSS. I wasn't stating that this hinders it to the point of non-viability as I too agree that the standard set is great and definitely something to be fearful of. However, I can't say its main functionality is to spread paralysis for later mons to abuse. I believe it is more of a blanket check such as fear mons, but rather than having a plethora of weaknesses like these fear mons, Klefki can essentially come in on 700+ pokémon with ease, without hazards deeming it useless.

It has multiple uses, usually not malfunctioning after it faints one pokémon. Although what truly fails Klefki is its reliance on luck, which is what most damages its viability. While Darkrai works 80% of the time per se (before accounting for random factors), Klefki has to hit a 90% move, which only works 50% of the time. You have a 45% chance to succeed with Klefki, I know which chance I'd rather take. Okay, well. It isn't really this simple.

Tbh, removing twave is the worst thing you can do to a swagkey set. While it has little effect in 1v1 battles (as opposed to other moves it carries), it spoils the whole purpose of keeping a swagkey in most teams. Unless you're using 6 swagkeys, removing twave means that the keys offer little support to any other mon you carry and have a very high risk of offering the opponent a free sweep if he doesn't hit himself. Moreover, not carrying twave means that foul play always hits second with klef's mediocre speed. Twave is actually the whole point of even carrying swagkey, to begin with. I don't see how removing it over foul play/swagger is to make any sense, unless you want to rely entirely on RNG.
The point here is Klefki can only paralyse two pokémon, and as I agree that without it, it offers little support to other team members; being able to only paralyse two pokémon is p terrible for a Pokémon to do. Then say they have one Primal Groudon, only one pokemon becomes paralysed. You can't do anything with nil-offense Klefki, you might as well run Glare Dunsparce, at least that's more useful. You could then suggest removing Swagger to account for another move, but that removes any offensive presence (as the Foul Play damage becomes zilch and Klefki's offensive stats are weak) from Klefki as well which allows it to become walled by a pokémon with recovery. This is why I agree that the standard set is the only really good set, unless you're intent on becoming a blanket check of which I stated earlier is perfectly fine. Thunder Wave is the most useless move out of the four, but without it you suffer immensely.

And yes, the swagkey set is pretty one-dimensional. But is that even bad? It does what its supposed to do, and unless you can name me one legit switch in for klefki (Mdiancie can be flash cannon'd, while msab doesn't even touch klef), I don't see how it having a common set is a problem.
No it's not bad. I never stated it was bad. Mega-Diancie is a legitimate switchin, unless you're facing a six Klefki team. Flash Cannon only hits Mega Diancie which makes the use of a moveslot ponderously bad. It ensures that the same thing happens as I stated with the removal of Foul Play, its offensive presence is lost which hurts it immensely. Mega Sableye can Taunt, Will-O-Wisp and ensure that the Klefki becomes burned. It at least forces Klefki out in this scenario. My point was misinterpreted here (maybe I didn't convey it correctly) the common set is all it can run. This isn't necessarily bad, although it stops it from progressing further.

Also, Klefki can be a pretty decent spikes-setter/light clay user, depending on how you use it. The reason why Klefki isn't hyped up that much is because I haven't seen any worthy player use it effectively, other than Gunner. It has a great typing for what it is supposed to do and is one of the few mons that can threaten teams on its own.
Sure it has spikes and screen setting options, which in turn catch the opponent off guard. Klefki is definitely overhyped if anything, I don't know anyone who thinks Klefki is "bad" or "underachieving" by any means. I can almost agree with all your last paragraph, and if anything prevents it from dropping to A+ it would probably be the variety of options it can run in SwagPlay/Spikes/Screens.
 
First of all, any special attacker with Recover probably beats Klefki, as any sane person should be running Timid/Modest/Bold/Calm nature with 0 Attack IV to prevent Confusion and Foul Play damage. A prime example would be Fairy Arceus. (Although you kind of get t-waved and you lose the ability to outspeed Mega Ray... Well, I used to run a Rest Talk set back then...) Another way to beat Klefki is switching in and out, considering there are no hazards on play. The damage from Foul Play definitely won't beat the like of Ho-oh, Chansey, Blissey, or pretty much any Fairy type any time soon. Klefki also loses to Roar, and Lum users considering it hasn't set up Sub. It also can't hurt teams with Magic Bounce. I think that for Klefki to be threatening, it must be paired up with Ditto. That means that any team with SwagKey would waste 2 team slots for max potential. (Although SwagKey + Ditto is nothing to scoff at, considering Ditto sometimes doesn't even need a Scarf, if the opponent team is paralyzed) And even if a Pokemon without status is up against Klefki, a the Pokemon has 75% chance (T-wave) or 55% chance (Swagger with miss chance included) to one shot a Klefki. Klefki is always losing in terms of odds, unless it has BOTH statuses set up, which is pretty hard to do against Hyper Offense. In Stall teams, Klefki doesn't stand a chance. Klefki could be A or A- for all I care, but A+ is good for now, imo.


THANK YOU! ARTICUNO IS UNRANKED!!!

And, I found out that Level 1 Groudon is a Showdown Glitch, and should normally be unobtainable.
 

Josh

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hi yo noms, dont have times for long explanations, ask if you need clarification!

Unrank Arceus Psychic as it is completely terrible. Show me a single team its been used on. Zang and I had a team with it, its shit, completely. We aren't Ubers, we don't have to rank the random terrible stuff.

Unrank Reshiram as again, it is completely terrible.

Unrank Heatran because it has no relevancy in AG, not doing anything relevant that something else doesn't do better. Being extremely weak to the ground coverage everything has doesnt help either.

Unrank Kyurem-Black as it is just bad.

Jirachi to D as it is outclassed as a hax god by skymin, but besides that its just generally very mediocre and team specific. Its typing is nice, Healing Wish support is nice, but again it is very team specific and as such D is all I can justify ranking it in.

Regular Groudon to C, its biggest niche is beating pdon and pdon isnt AS common in ag as ubers, though still very common. It has other uses, such as not being weak to ground coverage, but losing the ability to switch into pogre, absorb burns, etc, hurt it a lot. Its a niche mon; not as good as say bronzong or ditto.

Greninja to C+ or lower, I don't see how a suicide lead thats worse than deo-s is ranked so high, and offensive greninja is pretty laughable. Why is it even this high in the first place ?_?

Kyu-W to C-, this being in the same rank as skarm/mega sab/etc genuinely made me chuckle. Its ok, being hard to switch into and strong af, but its speed/typing/weakness to sr/general outclassedness is crippling and it being in B is a joke. It has a niche; a tiny one.




There was discussion in the room about S. Having an S+ defeats the whole purpose of an "s-rank threat", but having an S- does not. So I propose Mega Ray, Klefki, Pdon, and Xerneas to S- and Darkrai/Arceus remain in S. Reasoning is that they are by far the most centralizing things, both are extremely potent and are nearly never dead weight. Arceus is easier to fit on teams, and has more variety, whereas Darkrai is unique in that it has absolutely no safe switchins. There was some discussion that Darkrai isn't the same level as normalceus, but I strongly believe its actually equally good or better, so we can hear some thoughts on that.

Provided we go that direction and do an S-, Ho-oh to S- is my next nom. I find its just so easy to fit on teams, so hard to take down thanks to regenerator, and actually functions as one of the best darkrai "answers" in the game via sleep talk combined with great special bulk, so S- is definitely where it belongs in my eyes.
 

chlo

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has moved from S to A+
has been ranked at C-

Klefki was moved to A+ after much discussion on its viability when taking into account the developing metagame, its heavy reliance on good luck in order to achieve anything and a plethora of other reasons. Over the last page or so, we have clearly established that Klefki is not an S-worthy pokémon. Glalie was ranked after multiple attempts to rerank it after a misinformed de-ranking prior to this thread.

Josh, I personally find even with the removal of the solid S rank, Klefki still doesn't deserve to be there. I will move to A+ as we agreed on, but if others disagree we can always put it back at S-.
 

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