Resource USUM AG Viability Rankings

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Meh. Honestly, what can Xerneas do with Specs that Lunala can't do just as well or better?

Lunala has a slightly higher SpA stat but Fairy Aura you say? Who gives a damn when everybody carries a Steel type or Ho Oh which just shits on Xerneas. Lunala is immune to espeed, has a far better attacking type stab move in Moongeist Beam, gets STAB psyshock, and can come in against boosted mons and survive due to shadow shield (It can survive a +2 Ekiller shadow claw for reference, which is 4x effective.

Honestly, I just feel like Xerneas is rendered irrelevant now in the current meta, as much as I used to love it. I don't feel that a couple gimmick lures that you mention get ubers use are worth such a high spot on the VR.
Because specs lunala has 2 stabs that hit weaker than a fairy aura boosted moonblast have common immunities. That alone makes it incredibly unreliable as a breaker, whereas Xerneas has very few consistent switchins (you have moves to hit every single one if you want to, almost everything gets 3hkod with no recovery, so basically the most reliable things are hooh and steelceus which can either get bodied on switch or take a lot and need to recover). I admit that specs lunala was what I thought would be the next hot breaker for a while, but CM sets are a lot more effective at what you'd like it to do because specs is stupidly prediction reliant and doesn't carry as much reward from getting it right. Also those gimmick lures were just ideas I dropped because right now there's a lot of potential for xerneas to be utilized more and in new ways than it currently is, it speaks to Xerneas's potential to adapt. That certainly doesn't mean it can't go down until people do figure out what to do with it for sure, but I just wanted to point out that it has way more going for it than what you said originally, it's not hard outclassed by fairyceus. For that matter, being "outclassed in every way except geomancy and scarf sets" doesn't sound that bad to me, it basically sounds like you're saying the only things xern does well are its already established standard sets. If you really think there's nothing more to say about Xerneas then fine, but the original post brining up nonexistent counterarguments like "it has no physical fairy move" and "aromatherapy sucks" and completely ignoring any merits specs, geomancy, or scarf xern makes the overall nomination seem a lot more questionable.
 
After a lot of experience in the Anything Goes tier, I felt like it's time to do a big change, and in my opinion, the Viability Rankings look a bit messed up. Just a heads up, I'll be nominating 30 changes in total. I will explain shortly why a specific nomination should happen for each Pokémon. Most of these will be rises, but there will also be quite a few drops as well. Don't forget this is mainly my opinion, and based on my experiences only. Feel free to disagree, and comment about it. If you agree with the majority, a like would be appreciated to show you support most of these. Anyway, time to cut the intro and lets get right into it!

Nominating
Groudon-Primal A+ → A
Groudon-Primal isn't the threat it used to be. It's easily worn down by common stuff in the meta, Rayquaza-Mega, Arceus, Arceus-Ghost, Yveltal, to name a few. Its lack of reliable recovery, and not having access to Leftovers doesn't help it either. Nowadays, people are too prepared for it. People have a Giratina or Bulky Arceus form on bulkier teams, and offensive ones simply doesn't care about it most of the time, it takes damage every time it comes in after all. I'd say its best set at the moment is Swords Dance, with either Stealth Rock, Rock Polish, or whatever suits your needs. The pokémon in general is good, but in my eyes, not good enough for A+.

Nominating
Arceus A → A+
I can't believe this is ranked A at this very moment. The amount of viable sets this can run is near endless. It can function as nearly any role. Nearly every check gets easily countered by a viable set Arceus can run. I've been toying around with Substitute Arceus, and that set alone lures random shit like Celesteela, and Giratina, and turns them into setup bait. I believe that at this very moment Arceus is just ranked for its generic and predictable Life Orb set, which isn't bad by any means, but I believe A is too low for something that has at least 10 viable sets that can cover literally every counter listed on the compendium.

Nominating
Zygarde-Complete A → A+
So this nomination has been a very active discussion subject lately. Zygarde-Complete has what it needs to be anything you wish it needs to do. Need an offense breaker? Zygarde! Need a physical wall? Zygarde! This can go on forever really. Zygarde in general is a nuisance and every team requires checks to it, because you don't want to straight up lose to it any time you see one. It has amazing status moves in Glare and Toxic, it can phaze, it can even tank a Choice Band Outrage from Rayquaza-Mega if it has to! Thousand Arrows gives it a niche of its own, its a near unresisted STAB, only being resisted by a handful of pokémon and being completely blocked by Shedinja. Requiring it to go into Complete first isn't hard at all, in contrary of many people their beliefs. If anything, it deserves A+.

Nominating
Arceus-Dark B+ → A-
Arceus-Dark is an underrated pokémon. I think Arceus-Dark may be one of the best late game sweepers. Yes, it does have checks, but if you remove them before you reveal your Arceus-Dark, it's easier than you think. It can run 2 sets, support and Calm Mind. This gives it a bit of diversity already. The Calm Mind set should be used with either Refresh or Iron Defense. The former lets you beat stall and balance, and the latter lets you beat offense. I think it deserves A- because it really fits well in the meta at the moment, and it lacks counters that are common enough to reduce its usability.

Nominating
Lunala B+ → A-
Lunala is the second pokémon I hope to get in A-. Lunala is very versatile. Its sets require scouting in order to retaliate properly. It has a nice Ability in Shadow Shield, that lets it take hits like they're nothing. This essentially means any set can revenge kill Rayquaza-Mega, even when its at +1 and holding a Life Orb. Its Choice Scarf set is really annoying for offense. Immunity to Extreme Speed is huge. It's Choice Specs set can break any stall lacking a Muk-Alola, and it can really punch holes in any other type of team. Lunala can also run a defensive set, or a hot Calm Mind set, both of which are really annoying.

Nominating
Magearna B+ → B-
Magearna is overrated as fuck. I believe it gets fully outclassed by Arceus-Poison when it comes to checking Xerneas and Yveltal reliably. Magearna is used because its new, and people want to explore new things. Unlike Arceus-Poison, it lacks recovery besides Pain Split and has a ton of stuff that can switch in on it without worrying one bit. It does check certain things that Arceus-Poison doesn't, like Deoxys-Attack and Arceus-Dark, which is why B- fits.

Nominating
Celesteela B → A-
Celesteela is the most annoying pokémon introduced in generation 7. It can force so many switches and rack up damage with ease. It has a beautiful Type combination, allowing it to check many pokémon including Rayquaza-Mega, Arceus and Arceus-Ground. It does have flaws in lacking reliable recovery and Leech Seed having a shitty amount of PP, but that shouldn't stop it from becoming A-. Stall doesn't really mind it, but the more common offense teams hate it. If a team however has a hard counter, like Ferrothorn, it can be pretty deadweight, but so does stuff like Arceus when theres a Quagsire or a Pyukumuku, right?

Nominating
Deoxys-Speed B- → B
Deoxys-Speed is a simple lead, which works really well on offensive teams. The amount of support it can give is pretty huge. B- is too low for it in my opinion, because it's simply put way better than that. It nearly always guarantees 1 layer of hazards is up at the beginning of the game. Its dual screens set is underrated too. I haven't seen many teams using the particular set, but it really does a great job.

Nominating
Smeargle C+ → B
Smeargle is really versatile. It can run a Sticky Web lead set, a Baton Pass lead set, and it can work in long Baton Pass chains too. Moody is one of the selling points of Smeargle, and even though it is unreliable, it is pretty nice to mess with. It's huge arsenal of support moves helps in most lead sets. You never know what to expect, from Whirlwind to Encore to even Metal Burst if they feel like it.

Nominating
Arceus-Poison C+ B-
I've tried this baby out a lot recently, and it's really much more than C+ it's Toxic immunity along with checking Xerneas and Yveltal, and having a wide amount of support moves it can run makes it stand out. I think this fully outclasses Magearna if I'm honest. You can't get worn down as easy. Xerneas. doesn't fear setting up as much when you haven't revealed this thing yet. Groudon-Primal and Ho-Oh can't come in on Arceus-Poison as well as it can on Magearna, and as I mentioned earlier in the Magearna nomination, this has reliable recovery. Overall, I put this at around the same level as Magearna, because they still have things that sets them apart individually.

Nominating
Scizor-Mega C+ → C
Scizor-Mega being ranked C+ is an exaggeration. It's nowhere near as high as that. Looking at other pokémon in the same rank, I'd rather run something like Jirachi, to not waste my Mega slot. Scizor-Mega is subpar overall and even though it has a great typing, it simply doesn't cut it as much in the meta. It looks better on paper than in practice in my opinion.

Edit: Changed the C- nomination to C, I realised C- was a bit too extreme, comparing it to pokémon already in C-.

Nominating
Excadrill C → B-
Excadrill is still so underrated as lead, Rapid Spin, Stealth Rock, Mold Breaker and speed control in Bulldoze and/or Rock Tomb. It beats most common leads including Groudon-Primal, Deoxys-Speed, Smeargle without Spore, etc. It does struggle against Ghost types, but they can be crippled nontheless with Toxic, or by lowering its Speed. I think Excadrill should be as high as B- because it guarantees Stealth Rock being up even more than against Deoxys-Speed. It has flaws against Taunt which prevents it from being better than Deoxys-Speed as a lead against Offense. There's also a Sand Rush set which is suprisingly good to either lure in or weather changers, or to sweep after they have been removed.

Nominating
Zekrom C → C+
Zekrom is a really devastating stallbreaker with its Substitute Hone Claws set, being able to set up on stuff like Ferrothorn, Arceus-Water, Celesteela, you name it. It also works well against both offense and balance if Sticky Web is up and it has access to a pretty good Choice Scarf set which can take souls. I'd say C is way too low, when looking at what Zekrom can do, and it honestly deserves more.

Nominating
Quagsire C → C+
Quagsire is really underused and I don't really know why. It has a good matchup against nearly anything offense can use on a team, Z-move Zygarde, Arceus, Arceus-ghost, Arceus-Steel to name a couple. It can spread Toxic and burns with Scald around a team with ease. Then we should not forget to mention it being able to use Counter against hard hitting stuff. Unlike Pyukumuku, this isn't compltely deadweight against Taunt users. It also has a great support movepool with stuff like Encore, and Haze.

Nominating
Breloom C- → C
I can't stress enough on how good Breloom is. Nearly every team goes unprepared for it, and it has a wide variety of move choices for its last two slots. the support it needs depends on its moveset and playstyle you use it on. I believe Breloom should be used a lot more, because I am the only user of it at the moment. I believe C might still be too low for this pokémon, but you gotta raise it with baby steps.

Nominating
Landorus-Therian C- → C
I've used Landorus-Therian a whole lot lately, and Explosion used with Stealth Rock is really good, it prevents Defog and Rapid Spin, assuming you're faster. Intimidate also helps checking stuff like Arceus and Groudon-Primal. It has access to speed control in Rock Tomb. Another set it can use is Choice Scarf, and that set is pretty good too. It outspeeds a good deal of pokémon and has access to U-turn. I think C- is too low for it and it should be raised.

Nominating
Gothitelle D → C+
Gothitelle is crazily good. It traps stuff which on its own is pretty big, but it can also support setup of hard to setup pokémon. It usually is kinda useless against offense, but against Balance and Stall, this thing is stupidly good, like gamechanging good. Getting rid of certain stuff really blows for a lot of teams. If you have an Arceus-Dark, and you manage to remove every Fairy Type, which Gothitelle can do much, much better than Gengar-Mega, you basically win. I believe it might even flow through to B-, but we should stick to C+ first.

Nominating
Arceus-Grass D → C
Arceus-Grass is another pokémon I have used a lot lately. I believe it is one of the best Stealth Rock setters. It can do heavy damage to most support Arceus forms. It can run quite some different sets, from suicide lead to a specially bulky wall to a Calm Mind sweeper. It completely shuts down pokémon reliant on Leech Seed, most notably Ferrothorn and Celesteela, and more importantly, it shuts down nearly all Zygarde sets, which is huge. It does come with flaws, like being weak to Rayquaza-Mega and Gengar-Mega, but since Arceus-Grass pairs really well with Lunala, it shouldn't be a problem.

Nominating
Shuckle D → C
Shuckle is a pretty good lead. Works really well on offense with it's support moves, and crazy bulk. It almost always gets up at least 1 layer of hazards, because of Mental Herb combined with Sturdy. Encore really shits on many pokémon and can lock into setup and other support moves. Shuckle is pretty straightforward and that's pretty much it.

Nominating
Kartana D → C-
I have used Kartana for a while, and I can't say I'm disappointed. Even though it requires Sticky Web support against offense, this fits perfectly on such a team. With one Attack boost from Beast Boost, you can tear entire teams apart. Against stall you would need Darkium Z to break Giratina, Skarmory or Ho-Oh at +2. I prefer the Grassium Z, and the Life Orb sets over it though, because they're better against offense. All in all, Kartana can be called a glass cannon and D would be too low for it in my opinion.

Nominating
Mewtwo-Mega-X Unranked → B
Mewtwo-Mega-X is one of the newly released megas. I have used it quite a bit and I feel like it should be put at B. It has a wide variety of moves it can run, and they're hard to pick, but nearly any combination works for this pokémon. Low Kick one shots a huge portion of the meta and two shots another huge portion. It can run coverage for nearly everything, Ice Punch, Stone Edge, Earthquake. It's ability lets it check Choice Scarf Jirachi pretty nicely, which is a nice feature.

Nominating
Mewtwo-Mega-Y Unranked → B-
Mewtwo-Mega-Y is another one of the newly released megas. I feel like this particular mega form of Mewtwo gets outclassed in many ways by its regular counterpart. Its main reason to use it would be if you have no mega whatsoever, or if you need to outspeed stuff. Its Ability has uses. It lets it check Smeargle, counter Breloom and utterly destroy evopass.

Nominating
Reshiram Unranked → C-
Reshiram isn't all too bad as people make it seem. It has nice wallbreaking capabilities, and with the introduction of Z-Crystals, it can defeat most of the pokémon that were hard counters to it in the previous generation. I believe Reshiram is underused but I feel like C- is a nice start for it.

Nominating
Barbaracle Unranked → D
Barbaracle! The pokémon that can nearly one shot the entire meta after a Shell Smash. It is frail, and is hard to setup. Though, just like Reshiram, Z-Crystals are to thank for this nomination. Rockium Z allows Barbaracle to one shot particular pokémon that would otherwise wall Barbaracle. The support it requires can range from Wobbuffet to Gothitelle to dual screens to Psychic Terrain. Just one of these can make a sweep way easier. Barbaracles checks are somewhat uncommon and I believe it can go past D eventually.

Nominating
Scizor Unranked → D
Scizor has proven itself to be D rank worthy to me. Its Choice Band set hits hard, and access to U-turn stops some things like Ho-Oh to become free switchins. It knocks out Xerneas after chip damage, and can one shot Arceus with Superpower. It also is a pretty good Pursuit trapper. I believe Scizor is the only viable pokémon to be able to one shot Gengar-Mega with Pursuit, even if Gengar-Mega doesn't switch. Bullet Punch is a nice priority move that can knock out a -1 Rayquaza-Mega after Stealth Rock damage. So it has to be ranked at least D in my opinion.

Nominating
Arceus-Fire Unranked → D
Nominating
Arceus-Electric Unranked → D
Nominating
Arceus-Ice Unranked → D
Nominating
Arceus-Flying Unranked → D
I'm grouping these 4 together, because they should be ranked for similar reasons. They have potential in the meta, and aren't fully outclassed by some other Arceus type. I've used some of these and they work, so I wouldn't see why not. The reason Arceus-Psychic and Arceus-Bug aren't in here is because they're utter shit and shouldn't even be considered.
 
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After a lot of experience in the Anything Goes tier, I felt like it's time to do a big change, and in my opinion, the Viability Rankings look a bit messed up. Just a heads up, I'll be nominating 30 changes in total. I will explain shortly why a specific nomination should happen for each Pokémon. Most of these will be rises, but there will also be quite a few drops as well. Don't forget this is mainly my opinion, and based on my experiences only. Feel free to disagree, and comment about it. If you agree with the majority, a like would be appreciated to show you support most of these. Anyway, time to cut the intro and lets get right into it!

Nominating
Groudon-Primal A+ → A
Groudon-Primal isn't the threat it used to be. It's easily worn down by common stuff in the meta, Rayquaza-Mega, Arceus, Arceus-Ghost, Yveltal, to name a few. Its lack of reliable recovery, and not having access to Leftovers doesn't help it either. Nowadays, people are too prepared for it. People have a Giratina or Bulky Arceus form on bulkier teams, and offensive ones simply doesn't care about it most of the time, it takes damage every time it comes in after all. I'd say its best set at the moment is Swords Dance, with either Stealth Rock, Rock Polish, or whatever suits your needs. The pokémon in general is good, but in my eyes, not good enough for A+.

Nominating
Arceus A → A+
I can't believe this is ranked A at this very moment. The amount of viable sets this can run is near endless. It can function as nearly any role. Nearly every check gets easily countered by a viable set Arceus can run. I've been toying around with Substitute Arceus, and that set alone lures random shit like Celesteela, and Giratina, and turns them into setup bait. I believe that at this very moment Arceus is just ranked for its generic and predictable Life Orb set, which isn't bad by any means, but I believe A is too low for something that has at least 10 viable sets that can cover literally every counter listed on the compendium.

Nominating
Zygarde-Complete A → A+
So this nomination has been a very active discussion subject lately. Zygarde-Complete has what it needs to be anything you wish it needs to do. Need an offense breaker? Zygarde! Need a physical wall? Zygarde! This can go on forever really. Zygarde in general is a nuisance and every team requires checks to it, because you don't want to straight up lose to it any time you see one. It has amazing status moves in Glare and Toxic, it can phaze, it can even tank a Choice Band Outrage from Rayquaza-Mega if it has to! Requiring it to go into Complete first isn't hard at all, in contrary of many people their beliefs. If anything, it deserves A+.

Nominating
Arceus-Dark B+ → A-
Arceus-Dark is an underrated pokémon. I think Arceus-Dark may be one of the best late game sweepers. Yes, it does have checks, but if you remove them before you reveal your Arceus-Dark, it's easier than you think. It can run 2 sets, support and Calm Mind. This gives it a bit of diversity already. The Calm Mind set should be used with either Refresh or Iron Defense. The former lets you beat stall and balance, and the latter lets you beat offense. I think it deserves A- because it really fits well in the meta at the moment, and it lacks counters that are common enough to reduce its usability.

Nominating
Lunala B+ → A-
Lunala is the second pokémon I hope to get in A-. Lunala is very versatile. Its sets require scouting in order to retaliate properly. It has a nice Ability in Shadow Shield, that lets it take hits like they're nothing. This essentially means any set can revenge kill Rayquaza-Mega, even when its at +1 and holding a Life Orb. Its Choice Scarf set is really annoying for offense. Immunity to Extreme Speed is huge. It's Choice Specs set can break any stall lacking a Muk-Alola, and it can really punch holes in any other type of team. Lunala can also run a defensive set, or a hot Calm Mind set, both of which are really annoying.

Nominating
Magearna B+ → B-
Magearna is overrated as fuck. I believe it gets fully outclassed by Arceus-Poison when it comes to checking Xerneas and Yveltal reliably. Magearna is used because its new, and people want to explore new things. Unlike Arceus-Poison, it lacks recovery besides Pain Split and has a ton of stuff that can switch in on it without worrying one bit. It does check certain things that Arceus-Poison doesn't, like Deoxys-Attack and Arceus-Dark, which is why B- fits.

Nominating
Celesteela B → A-
Celesteela is the most annoying pokémon introduced in generation 7. It can force so many switches and rack up damage with ease. It has a beautiful Type combination, allowing it to check many pokémon including Rayquaza-Mega, Arceus and Arceus-Ground. It does have flaws in lacking reliable recovery and Leech Seed having a shitty amount of PP, but that shouldn't stop it from becoming A-. Stall doesn't really mind it, but the more common offense teams hate it. If a team however has a hard counter, like Ferrothorn, it can be pretty deadweight, but so does stuff like Arceus when theres a Quagsire or a Pyukumuku, right?

Nominating
Deoxys-Speed B- → B
Deoxys-Speed is a simple lead, which works really well on offensive teams. The amount of support it can give is pretty huge. B- is too low for it in my opinion, because it's simply put way better than that. It nearly always guarantees 1 layer of hazards is up at the beginning of the game. Its dual screens set is underrated too. I haven't seen many teams using the particular set, but it really does a great job.

Nominating
Smeargle C+ → B
Smeargle is really versatile. It can run a Sticky Web lead set, a Baton Pass lead set, and it can work in long Baton Pass chains too. Moody is one of the selling points of Smeargle, and even though it is unreliable, it is pretty nice to mess with. It's huge arsenal of support moves helps in most lead sets. You never know what to expect, from Whirlwind to Encore to even Metal Burst if they feel like it.
Nominating
Arceus-Poison C+ B-
I've tried this baby out a lot recently, and it's really much more than C+ it's Toxic immunity along with checking Xerneas and Yveltal, and having a wide amount of support moves it can run makes it stand out. I think this fully outclasses Magearna if I'm honest. You can't get worn down as easy. Xerneas. doesn't fear setting up as much when you haven't revealed this thing yet. Groudon-Primal and Ho-Oh can't come in on Arceus-Poison as well as it can on Magearna, and as I mentioned earlier in the Magearna nomination, this has reliable recovery. Overall, I put this at around the same level as Magearna, because they still have things that sets them apart individually.

Nominating
Scizor-Mega C+ → C-
Scizor-Mega being ranked C+ is an exaggeration. It's nowhere near as high as that. Looking at other pokémon in the same rank, I'd rather run something like Jirachi, to not waste my Mega slot. Scizor-Mega is subpar overall and even though it has a great typing, it simply doesn't cut it as much in the meta. It looks better on paper than in practice in my opinion.

Nominating
Excadrill C → B-
Excadrill is still so underrated as lead, Rapid Spin, Stealth Rock, Mold Breaker and speed control in Bulldoze and/or Rock Tomb. It beats most common leads including Groudon-Primal, Deoxys-Speed, Smeargle without Spore, etc. It does struggle against Ghost types, but they can be crippled nontheless with Toxic, or by lowering its Speed. I think Excadrill should be as high as B- because it guarantees Stealth Rock being up even more than against Deoxys-Speed. It has flaws against Taunt which prevents it from being better than Deoxys-Speed as a lead against Offense. There's also a Sand Rush set which is suprisingly good to either lure in or weather changers, or to sweep after they have been removed.

Nominating
Zekrom C → C+
Zekrom is a really devastating stallbreaker with its Substitute Hone Claws set, being able to set up on stuff like Ferrothorn, Arceus-Water, Celesteela, you name it. It also works well against both offense and balance if Sticky Web is up and it has access to a pretty good Choice Scarf set which can take souls. I'd say C is way too low, when looking at what Zekrom can do, and it honestly deserves more.

Nominating
Quagsire C → C+
Quagsire is really underused and I don't really know why. It has a good matchup against nearly anything offense can use on a team, Z-move Zygarde, Arceus, Arceus-ghost, Arceus-Steel to name a couple. It can spread Toxic and burns with Scald around a team with ease. Then we should not forget to mention it being able to use Counter against hard hitting stuff. Unlike Pyukumuku, this isn't compltely deadweight against Taunt users. It also has a great support movepool with stuff like Encore, and Haze.

Nominating
Breloom C- → C
I can't stress enough on how good Breloom is. Nearly every team goes unprepared for it, and it has a wide variety of move choices for its last two slots. the support it needs depends on its moveset and playstyle you use it on. I believe Breloom should be used a lot more, because I am the only user of it at the moment. I believe C might still be too low for this pokémon, but you gotta raise it with baby steps.

Nominating
Landorus-Therian C- → C
I've used Landorus-Therian a whole lot lately, and Explosion used with Stealth Rock is really good, it prevents Defog and Rapid Spin, assuming you're faster. Intimidate also helps checking stuff like Arceus and Groudon-Primal. It has access to speed control in Rock Tomb. Another set it can use is Choice Scarf, and that set is pretty good too. It outspeeds a good deal of pokémon and has access to U-turn. I think C- is too low for it and it should be raised.

Nominating
Gothitelle D → C+
Gothitelle is crazily good. It traps stuff which on its own is pretty big, but it can also support setup of hard to setup pokémon. It usually is kinda useless against offense, but against Balance and Stall, this thing is stupidly good, like gamechanging good. Getting rid of certain stuff really blows for a lot of teams. If you have an Arceus-Dark, and you manage to remove every Fairy Type, which Gothitelle can do much, much better than Gengar-Mega, you basically win. I believe it might even flow through to B-, but we should stick to C+ first.

Nominating
Arceus-Grass D → C
Arceus-Grass is another pokémon I have used a lot lately. I believe it is one of the best Stealth Rock setters. It can do heavy damage to most support Arceus forms. It can run quite some different sets, from suicide lead to a specially bulky wall to a Calm Mind sweeper. It completely shuts down pokémon reliant on Leech Seed, most notably Ferrothorn and Celesteela. It does come with flaws, like being weak to Rayquaza-Mega and Gengar-Mega, but since Arceus-Grass pairs really well with Lunala, it shouldn't be a problem.

Nominating
Shuckle D → C
Shuckle is a pretty good lead. Works really well on offense with it's support moves, and crazy bulk. It almost always gets up at least 1 layer of hazards, because of Mental Herb combined with Sturdy. Encore really shits on many pokémon and can lock into setup and other support moves. Shuckle is pretty straightforward and that's pretty much it.

Nominating
Kartana D → C-
I have used Kartana for a while, and I can't say I'm disappointed. Even though it requires Sticky Web support against offense, this fits perfectly on such a team. With one Attack boost from Beast Boost, you can tear entire teams apart. Against stall you would need Darkium Z to break Giratina, Skarmory or Ho-Oh at +2. I prefer the Grassium Z, and the Life Orb sets over it though, because they're better against offense. All in all, Kartana can be called a glass cannon and D would be too low for it in my opinion.

Nominating
Mewtwo-Mega-X Unranked → B
Mewtwo-Mega-X is one of the newly released megas. I have used it quite a bit and I feel like it should be put at B. It has a wide variety of moves it can run, and they're hard to pick, but nearly any combination works for this pokémon. Low Kick one shots a huge portion of the meta and two shots another huge portion. It can run coverage for nearly everything, Ice Punch, Stone Edge, Earthquake. It's ability lets it check Choice Scarf Jirachi pretty nicely, which is a nice feature.

Nominating
Mewtwo-Mega-Y Unranked → B-
Mewtwo-Mega-Y is another one of the newly released megas. I feel like this particular mega form of Mewtwo gets outclassed in many ways by its regular counterpart. Its main reason to use it would be if you have no mega whatsoever, or if you need to outspeed stuff. Its Ability has uses. It lets it check Smeargle, counter Breloom and utterly destroy evopass.

Nominating
Reshiram Unranked → C-
Reshiram isn't all too bad as people make it seem. It has nice wallbreaking capabilities, and with the introduction of Z-Crystals, it can defeat most of the pokémon that were hard counters to it in the previous generation. I believe Reshiram is underused but I feel like C- is a nice start for it.
Nominating
Barbaracle Unranked → D
Barbaracle! The pokémon that can nearly one shot the entire meta after a Shell Smash. It is frail, and is hard to setup. Though, just like Reshiram, Z-Crystals are to thank for this nomination. Rockium Z allows Barbaracle to one shot particular pokémon that would otherwise wall Barbaracle. The support it requires can range from Wobbuffet to Gothitelle to dual screens to Psychic Terrain. Just one of these can make a sweep way easier. Barbaracles checks are somewhat uncommon and I believe it can go past D eventually.

Nominating
Scizor Unranked → D
Scizor has proven itself to be D rank worthy to me. Its Choice Band set hits hard, and access to U-turn stops some things like Ho-Oh to become free switchins. It knocks out Xerneas after chip damage, and can one shot Arceus with Superpower. It also is a pretty good Pursuit trapper. I believe Scizor is the only viable pokémon to be able to one shot Gengar-Mega with Pursuit, even if Gengar-Mega doesn't switch. Bullet Punch is a nice priority move that can knock out a -1 Rayquaza-Mega after Stealth Rock damage. So it has to be ranked at least D in my opinion.

Nominating
Arceus-Fire Unranked → D
Nominating
Arceus-Electric Unranked → D
Nominating
Arceus-Ice Unranked → D
Nominating
Arceus-Flying Unranked → D
I'm grouping these 4 together, because they should be ranked for similar reasons. They have potential in the meta, and aren't fully outclassed by some other Arceus type. I've used some of these and they work, so I wouldn't see why not. The reason Arceus-Psychic and Arceus-Bug aren't in here is because they're utter shit and shouldn't even be considered.
I agree with the majority of what you've nominated here but I'd just like to rebut/support a few of your ideas. Forgive my poor formatting but that quote is far too big to quote the Pokemon I want to rebut/support with.

Zygarde-Complete-Disagree
"Need an offence breaker? Zygarde! Need a physical wall? Zygarde! This can go on forever really." I think you're greatly exaggerating Zygarde's usefulness here, as I honestly think that these are really the only two roles that Zygarde can do well-would you mind providing a few more examples to support your versatility argument here? Aside from versatility, a 4x weakness to ice, especially on a slower Pokemon appears to be a massive problem, especially considering that it needs to get down to 50% to transform first. If you'd be able to provide some sort of strategy or calc to prove that getting down to 50% and staying alive isn't as hard as people imagine that would be great, but until then I have to disagree with your argument there.

Lunala-Agree
Keeping with what I know, Lunala's Choice Scarf set alone should be enough for it to go to A- easily. Choice Scarf, as previously pointed out, allows Lunala to revenge so many top-tier threats that it's not funny, including MRay, Ghostceus and MGar. It hits nice and hard and shrugs off hits easily thanks to Shadow Shield, allowing it to flat out sweep teams late game and to even switch into attacks to force switches/get kills. Definite A- material.

Magearna-Agree
Overrated trash. Looks cool, new Poke, but it's outclassed fairly well at anything it wants to check/counter. A lack of recovery is awful on a Pokemon like Magearna, especially since it wants to stay healthy in order to deal with its targets. Not as good as people think.

Celesteela-Disagree
"It does have flaws in lacking reliable recovery and Leech Seed having a shitty amount of PP" Are you trying to say here that, Celesteela, even without reliable recovery, even with a distinct PP problem on one of its staple moves, still deserves a position as an A- staller, above Skarmory? Sorry, not buying it. Unless you provide some new aspects to this argument I simply have to disagree with you on this-those flaws are big, and should bar it from A-.

Zekrom-Agree
Zekrom's underrated af, needs to go higher. The Hone Claws argument is one that many people overlook, focussing solely on Choice Scarf sets. This, considering the viability of HC, is a big mistake, and because of this set versatility, it needs to go higher.
 
I agree with the majority of what you've nominated here but I'd just like to rebut/support a few of your ideas. Forgive my poor formatting but that quote is far too big to quote the Pokemon I want to rebut/support with.

Zygarde-Complete-Disagree
"Need an offence breaker? Zygarde! Need a physical wall? Zygarde! This can go on forever really." I think you're greatly exaggerating Zygarde's usefulness here, as I honestly think that these are really the only two roles that Zygarde can do well-would you mind providing a few more examples to s1upport your versatility argument here? Aside from versatility, a 4x weakness to ice, especially on a slower Pokemon appears to be a massive problem, especially considering that it needs to get down to 50% to transform first. If you'd be able to provide some sort of strategy or calc to prove that getting down to 50% and staying alive isn't as hard as people imagine that would be great, but until then I have to disagree with your argument there.
This answer is everything that's wrong with this thread atm.
Arguments against Zygarde being A+ are annoyingly based on theorymoning, and that needs to stop. No, Zygarde is not a slow mon. It outspeeds a bulk of the meta after a DD, its speed tier is as relevant as DD Mray. No, it doesn't only fit two roles. It can run at least 5 different sets viably (refer to my several previous posts on this thread bc I'm sick of making the same argument over and over and over again) and it is one of the most solid offense breakers ever. No, it's 4x ice weakness isn't huge considering nothing really spams ice STAB in the meta and a bulk of the IB users are checked well by ferrothorn on its own. No, the need for it to be at 50% isn't a problem because it hits just as hard as the complete form and is actually faster to begin with. Look at the current viability rankings, for instance (I'm not going to slap on Ice beam on random mons for this argument just because they can carry ice beam)-

Mega Rayquaza - Unless Draco set, coil glare Zygarde causes paralysis and sets up on it.
Arceus-Ghost - ^ except that it has no draco and even DD Zygarde sets up on this.
Primal Groudon - Setup fodder unless roar
Yveltal - Set up on by coil glare unless fast taunt (and not a great matchup vs DD, either)
Mega Gengar - Set up on unless taunt
Arceus - Set up on by a majority of Zygarde sets
Arceus-Fairy - One of the rare viable mons that check Zygarde, however, doesn't counter it as it is taken out by z t arrows + t arrows on the switch in, while Zygarde tanks a non invested judgment.
Arceus Steel - Set up fodder
Arceus-Ground - The support form checks Zygarde pretty hard, no arguments here. Still not a reliable counter, btw.
Arceus-Water - Same argument as Ground and Fairyceus

I'd go on, but you get the point. Everything else on the viability rankings would find it difficult to switch into Zygarde with the exceptions of Lugia, Quagsire and Clefable. Glare's one of the easiest moves to spam and is a great speed control move, plus it lets Zygarde spam coil against a bulk of the meta. I've already mentioned the benefits of the DD set multiple times before. I'd request everyone trying to make an argument against this nom to refer to my previous posts. I'm not explaining this entire thing again.

Also, I agree with all Thimo noms except Reshiram, Mega Scizor (C, maybe) and maybe Fireceus as I don't really like the rocks weakness + Poisonceus is just so much better at everything it does. Supporting every other nom, and strongly supporting Zygarde, Groudon-Primal and Celesteela noms as they really, really need to happen.
 
This answer is everything that's wrong with this thread atm.
Arguments against Zygarde being A+ are annoyingly based on theorymoning, and that needs to stop. No, Zygarde is not a slow mon. It outspeeds a bulk of the meta after a DD, its speed tier is as relevant as DD Mray. No, it doesn't only fit two roles. It can run at least 5 different sets viably (refer to my several previous posts on this thread bc I'm sick of making the same argument over and over and over again) and it is one of the most solid offense breakers ever. No, it's 4x ice weakness isn't huge considering nothing really spams ice STAB in the meta and a bulk of the IB users are checked well by ferrothorn on its own. No, the need for it to be at 50% isn't a problem because it hits just as hard as the complete form and is actually faster to begin with. Look at the current viability rankings, for instance (I'm not going to slap on Ice beam on random mons for this argument just because they can carry ice beam)-

Mega Rayquaza - Unless Draco set, coil glare Zygarde causes paralysis and sets up on it.
Arceus-Ghost - ^ except that it has no draco and even DD Zygarde sets up on this.
Primal Groudon - Setup fodder unless roar
Yveltal - Set up on by coil glare unless fast taunt (and not a great matchup vs DD, either)
Mega Gengar - Set up on unless taunt
Arceus - Set up on by a majority of Zygarde sets
Arceus-Fairy - One of the rare viable mons that check Zygarde, however, doesn't counter it as it is taken out by z t arrows + t arrows on the switch in, while Zygarde tanks a non invested judgment.
Arceus Steel - Set up fodder
Arceus-Ground - The support form checks Zygarde pretty hard, no arguments here. Still not a reliable counter, btw.
Arceus-Water - Same argument as Ground and Fairyceus

I'd go on, but you get the point. Everything else on the viability rankings would find it difficult to switch into Zygarde with the exceptions of Lugia, Quagsire and Clefable. Glare's one of the easiest moves to spam and is a great speed control move, plus it lets Zygarde spam coil against a bulk of the meta. I've already mentioned the benefits of the DD set multiple times before. I'd request everyone trying to make an argument against this nom to refer to my previous posts. I'm not explaining this entire thing again.

Also, I agree with all Thimo noms except Reshiram, Mega Scizor (C, maybe) and maybe Fireceus as I don't really like the rocks weakness + Poisonceus is just so much better at everything it does. Supporting every other nom, and strongly supporting Zygarde, Groudon-Primal and Celesteela noms as they really, really need to happen.
This also exemplifies my issues with Zygarde noms, so hey, coincidence:
MRay: LO draco is one of the best sets rn, and Zygarde also can't set up on sd or lum sets unless it gets lucky with full paras.
Ghostceus: Glare+coil does set up, but not DD unless Draginium Z with rocks off the field: +2 252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Shadow Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 378-445 (105.8 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO//+2 252 Atk Arceus-Ghost Never-Ending Nightmare (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 498-586 (139.4 - 164.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO, while +1 252+ Atk Zygarde Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 343-405 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO is extremely unreliable in return and only of use for the desperate.
Primal Groudon: Burns can still screw Zyggy over, and roar is not rare; pdon also lives a +1 tarrows which makes life difficult. Definitely a win for zyggy, though (unless roar or draginium Z vs SD).
Mega Gengar: You don't set up on Taunt, or wisp hex, or hypnohex, or perish trapper... about the only thing you set up on is offensive trapper that lacks taunt, so this seems really optimistic.
Yveltal: 252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 259-305 (40.7 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, not to mention that defensive sets can beat dd with foul play
Arceus-Fairy: +1 tarrows does less than half, so you have to ddance twice and then techtonic rage and then hope they don't OHKO you or run roar, as contrary to your assumption it has a nice 25% chance (62.5 with SR)

As far as switchins go, Pyukumuku, Defensive Xern, Shedinja, Grassceus, Health Defensive Pogre, and Lunala all also do a decent job of checking it.

E: Ty tyler, fixed
 
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SaturnZelda

formerly TylerWithNumbers
This also exemplifies my issues with Zygarde noms, so hey, coincidence:
MRay: LO draco is one of the best sets rn, and Zygarde also can't set up on sd or lum sets unless it gets lucky with full paras.
Ghostceus: Glare+coil does set up, but not DD unless Draginium Z with rocks off the field: +2 252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Shadow Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 378-445 (105.8 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO, while +1 252+ Atk Zygarde Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 343-405 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO is extremely unreliable in return and only of use for the desperate. Should rocks be on the feild, even said Draginium Z muct beware as 252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Never-Ending Nightmare (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 298-352 (83.4 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock vs +1 252+ Atk Zygarde Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 363-427 (95.2 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO isn't all that favorable for it.
Primal Groudon: Burns can still screw Zyggy over, and roar is not rare; pdon also lives a +1 tarrows which makes life difficult. Definitely a win for zyggy, though (unless roar or draginium Z vs SD).
Mega Gengar: You don't set up on Taunt, or wisp hex, or hypnohex, or perish trapper... about the only thing you set up on is offensive trapper that lacks taunt, so this seems really optimistic.
Yveltal: 252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 259-305 (40.7 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, not to mention that defensive sets can beat dd with foul play
Arceus-Fairy: +1 tarrows does less than half, so you have to ddance twice and then techtonic rage and then hope they don't OHKO you or run roar, as contrary to your assumption it has a nice 25% chance (62.5 with SR)

As far as switchins go, Pyukumuku, Defensive Xern, Shedinja, Grassceus, Health Defensive Pogre, and Lunala all also do a decent job of checking it.
One problem, your Ghostceus calc is Spooky Plate instead of Ghostium Z.
 
This also exemplifies my issues with Zygarde noms, so hey, coincidence:
MRay: LO draco is one of the best sets rn, and Zygarde also can't set up on sd or lum sets unless it gets lucky with full paras.
Ghostceus: Glare+coil does set up, but not DD unless Draginium Z with rocks off the field: +2 252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Shadow Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 378-445 (105.8 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO//+2 252 Atk Arceus-Ghost Never-Ending Nightmare (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 498-586 (139.4 - 164.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO, while +1 252+ Atk Zygarde Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 343-405 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO is extremely unreliable in return and only of use for the desperate.
Primal Groudon: Burns can still screw Zyggy over, and roar is not rare; pdon also lives a +1 tarrows which makes life difficult. Definitely a win for zyggy, though (unless roar or draginium Z vs SD).
Mega Gengar: You don't set up on Taunt, or wisp hex, or hypnohex, or perish trapper... about the only thing you set up on is offensive trapper that lacks taunt, so this seems really optimistic.
Yveltal: 252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 259-305 (40.7 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, not to mention that defensive sets can beat dd with foul play
Arceus-Fairy: +1 tarrows does less than half, so you have to ddance twice and then techtonic rage and then hope they don't OHKO you or run roar, as contrary to your assumption it has a nice 25% chance (62.5 with SR)

As far as switchins go, Pyukumuku, Defensive Xern, Shedinja, Grassceus, Health Defensive Pogre, and Lunala all also do a decent job of checking it.

E: Ty tyler, fixed
Ghostceus isn't getting to +2 NEM. Zyg outspeeds and kills, you provided the calcs yourself. Assuming rocks are on against an SD Ghostceus isn't parallel universe talk.
You're relying on a 30% burn chance with dong, and then relying on dong always carrying plume. And +1 Z TA does kill dong, so correction on your facts there. It kills every viable set in AG. It's a win for Zygarde against every set other than roar, and roar isn't exactly a win for dong, either. It could still be nuked by Zygarde if within range with no recovery to follow up.
The Mgar argument just makes me cringe, honestly. I'm not saying DD outspeeds and kills every set you mentioned but DD OUTSPEEDS AND KILLS EVERY SET YOU MENTIONED, unless you're actually assuming Hypnogar is going to hit Hypno and then get a three sleep turn (check wisp usage on high ladder Mgars, as it is the only exception here). And those aren't even the only Mgar sets, 3 attacks plus sub has usage, there's subbond + 2 attacks, other random stuff like disable Mgar etc. Try to imagine Mgar's matchup vs Mray, and that's basically the same thing as Zygarde considering they both have similar calcs offensively and defensively against Mgar. It's going to come down to a 50-50 so often, while you risk being swept on a bad predict and, at best, dbond suicide on a good one.
I mean, Defensive Yveltal is supposed to check Physically offensive mons and it still doesn't do that vs coil glare. More so, it doesn't counter any Zygarde set after rocks, considering

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 300-354 (65.9 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And foul play only does 67-79% after DD.
On a side note, good luck doing 40-47% from dpulse while you're being OHKO'd after rocks. (+1 TA + Espeed, or just +1 outrage). You do 70% odd on Zygarde 50, bring it to complete form with about 50% HP and then get killed. Further set ups on sucker predicts are a possibility too.
DD Zygarde runs 32 Sp Def, which is a 6% kill rate against Fairyceus (your average crit ratio), and does 78-91% with +1 Z TA against 248 HP Fairyceus, and then cleans with TA. This vs a mon that is supposed to counter Zygarde. Or, it could just set up another DD and be +2 atk+speed with 48% odd HP remaining on the power construct.

And seriously, we're now gonna assume defensive Xern, 100% HP defensive P ogre, no rocks lunala (it is OHKO'd after rocks, although scarf IB does check it at the expense of being locked into IB and allowing something else to setup) and Shedinja are common sets/mons/situations Zygarde will face?
Pyuku is a solid switchin for Zyg, yes. When I said Clef + Quag, I meant unaware mons, my bad. Grassceus is not switching in on dragonium z. Defensive P ogre has a chance of being OHKO'd after rocks on the switchin, and isn't an overly widespread AG set to begin with. I haven't seen anyone viably use defensive Xern, and considering how Fairyceus outclasses it in every other way except OHKO on Zygarde, I don't see it being a very common set any time soon. Z geo max Def is the exception, I guess, and that's why you run Poisonceus/Mag/ferro with Zygarde. Literally every mon you mentioned as a Zyg check is easy to play around, and a ferrothorn is basically all you need. Small cost to pay when you have a mon that consistently beats one of the most common play styles in the meta (HO, for those who don't get it) while being pretty decent vs everything else.

Edit - I'm not going to reply to anymore dumb theorymoning with reference to Zyg. Use Zygarde, get your facts right, and then make an argument for or against its viability.
 
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And if it wasn't obvious, Zygarde hits TA on defensive Yve first in order to ground it and bring it within range of Z TA even without rocks on.
 
Ghostceus isn't getting to +2 NEM. Zyg outspeeds and kills, you provided the calcs yourself. Assuming rocks are on against an SD Ghostceus isn't parallel universe talk.
You're relying on a 30% burn chance with dong, and then relying on dong always carrying plume. And +1 Z TA does kill dong, so correction on your facts there. It kills every viable set in AG. It's a win for Zygarde against every set other than roar, and roar isn't exactly a win for dong, either. It could still be nuked by Zygarde if within range with no recovery to follow up.
The Mgar argument just makes me cringe, honestly. I'm not saying DD outspeeds and kills every set you mentioned but DD OUTSPEEDS AND KILLS EVERY SET YOU MENTIONED, unless you're actually assuming Hypnogar is going to hit Hypno and then get a three sleep turn (check wisp usage on high ladder Mgars, as it is the only exception here). And those aren't even the only Mgar sets, 3 attacks plus sub has usage, there's subbond + 2 attacks, other random stuff like disable Mgar etc. Try to imagine Mgar's matchup vs Mray, and that's basically the same thing as Zygarde considering they both have similar calcs offensively and defensively against Mgar. It's going to come down to a 50-50 so often, while you risk being swept on a bad predict and, at best, dbond suicide on a good one.
I mean, Defensive Yveltal is supposed to check Physically offensive mons and it still doesn't do that vs coil glare. More so, it doesn't counter any Zygarde set after rocks, considering

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 300-354 (65.9 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And foul play only does 67-79% after DD.
On a side note, good luck doing 40-47% from dpulse while you're being OHKO'd after rocks. (+1 TA + Espeed, or just +1 outrage). You do 70% odd on Zygarde 50, bring it to complete form with about 50% HP and then get killed. Further set ups on sucker predicts are a possibility too.
DD Zygarde runs 32 Sp Def, which is a 6% kill rate against Fairyceus (your average crit ratio), and does 78-91% with +1 Z TA against 248 HP Fairyceus, and then cleans with TA. This vs a mon that is supposed to counter Zygarde. Or, it could just set up another DD and be +2 atk+speed with 48% odd HP remaining on the power construct.

And seriously, we're now gonna assume defensive Xern, 100% HP defensive P ogre, no rocks lunala (it is OHKO'd after rocks, although scarf IB does check it at the expense of being locked into IB and allowing something else to setup) and Shedinja are common sets/mons/situations Zygarde will face?
Pyuku is a solid switchin for Zyg, yes. When I said Clef + Quag, I meant unaware mons, my bad. Grassceus is not switching in on dragonium z. Defensive P ogre has a chance of being OHKO'd after rocks on the switchin, and isn't an overly widespread AG set to begin with. I haven't seen anyone viably use defensive Xern, and considering how Fairyceus outclasses it in every other way except OHKO on Zygarde, I don't see it being a very common set any time soon. Z geo max Def is the exception, I guess, and that's why you run Poisonceus/Mag/ferro with Zygarde. Literally every mon you mentioned as a Zyg check is easy to play around, and a ferrothorn is basically all you need. Small cost to pay when you have a mon that consistently beats one of the most common play styles in the meta (HO, for those who don't get it) while being pretty decent vs everything else.

Edit - I'm not going to reply to anymore dumb theorymoning with reference to Zyg. Use Zygarde, get your facts right, and then make an argument for or against its viability.
Hey, thanks for moving the goalposts, I really appreciate it; I too run 788 EVs and 2 Z-crystals on every pokemon.
Z TA kills, but TA doesn't. Unless groundium Z is now the only Zygarde set, the fact that +1 tarrows doesn't KO is still an issue. Even with groundium-Z sets, you still use up the Z-move you really want to use to break walls, and either way it's going to mess you up if they do burn. Between that and roar, zyggy doesn't set up that reliably; it's something that's needed to scout first rather than setup bait.
Mgar doesn't actually need a 3 turn sleep, just 2 turns; 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 271-319 (47.2 - 55.6%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO. Additionally, wisp-hex stilll screws you over because either you burn your techtonic rage and exchange an mgar for making Zygarde useless (and since you get to bring something in on mgar that means its just koed something), or you dd and then they get a free switch to <insert supportceus> because +1 burned Zygarde is really weak.
Are we now running 252 HP / 252+ ATK Zygarde? Dark pulse only does that little to coil sets; versus the offensive sets that run outrage and espeed, they aren't runnign 252 HP. Either way, Coil Zyggy isn't setting up on LO yveltal readily, and DDance doesn't set up on rocky helmet readily.
hunter said:
DD Zygarde runs 32 Sp Def
Also Hunter said:
Zygarde-Complete @ Groundium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe or 252 Atk / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed

Zygarde-Complete @ Groundium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Thousand Waves
- Rest
Hmmm...

248 HP is not the only Fairyceus set; defensive sets are extremely viable as well and certainly more standard; these do, in fact, counter Zygarde.
Grassceus comes in on any move bar DD from Draginium Z, and has a chance to beat even that. Lunala, meanwhile, comes in on any move and forces zygarde out, even after rocks, and freely switches in to Coil/DD and smacks the switchin.
Sure, they can be played around, but so can any pokemon ever. Don't say "Only A, B, and C can switch in" when things other than A, B, and C can switch in. This kind of dishonest argument is honestly just so unbecoming; this is a viability nom. You don't need to make stuff up just to be always right.
 
Hey, thanks for moving the goalposts, I really appreciate it; I too run 788 EVs and 2 Z-crystals on every pokemon.
Z TA kills, but TA doesn't. Unless groundium Z is now the only Zygarde set, the fact that +1 tarrows doesn't KO is still an issue. Even with groundium-Z sets, you still use up the Z-move you really want to use to break walls, and either way it's going to mess you up if they do burn. Between that and roar, zyggy doesn't set up that reliably; it's something that's needed to scout first rather than setup bait.
Yes, but if it has already used up the z crystal, chances are that ghosty is coming in on a +1 attack and speed Zygarde, in which case it is 2hko'd anyway. You're assuming a worst case scenario where Zyg has lost z crystal without a setup and ghosty is full HP (outrage still does about 57% minimum), which just won't happen. Moreover, we're talking specifically about two sets here - coil and groundium/dragonium z, both of which beat Ghostceus 1v1. SD Ghostceus teams aren't actually gonna carry shit that will force out a Zygarde switch, unless you're being very cteamy and carrying SD Ghostceus + quag. And I can't seriously consider an argument that says p don is supposed to do well vs Zygarde. That's just retarded.

Mgar doesn't actually need a 3 turn sleep, just 2 turns; 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 271-319 (47.2 - 55.6%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO. Additionally, wisp-hex stilll screws you over because either you burn your techtonic rage and exchange an mgar for making Zygarde useless (and since you get to bring something in on mgar that means its just koed something), or you dd and then they get a free switch to <insert supportceus> because +1 burned Zygarde is really weak.
Yes, but we still go back to the point of relying on a 60% accuracy move to hit and then cause a 2 sleep turn, the odds of which are around 20% if I'm not wrong. Moreover, hex is still a roll if Zyg is at 100% as Power Construct leaves Zyg at around 50%. This considering you're lucky enough to hit hypno. And hypno gar is going to pretty much check everything in the game if it has 100% accuracy and great sleep turns. We might as well make a separate VR for Hypnogar entirely. The point is that if hypno misses/1 sleep turn/2 sleep turn with low rolls, you're risking Zygarde having a sweeping opportunity.

Are we now running 252 HP / 252+ ATK Zygarde? Dark pulse only does that little to coil sets; versus the offensive sets that run outrage and espeed, they aren't runnign 252 HP. Either way, Coil Zyggy isn't setting up on LO yveltal readily, and DDance doesn't set up on rocky helmet readily.
Bro coil Zygarde is specifically designed to wall out Yveltal and set up on it. All it needs is 68 sp def evs to avoid d pulse 3hko, and more importantly, LO D pulse isn't still killing offensive Zygarde, whereas +1 TA + e speed is cleaning Yveltal while still having around 50% HP off of the Power Construct. As I said, taunt Yveltal cripples these sets, but still doesn't ensure a kill on Zyg because TArrows is a 2hko after rocks, whereas dpulse isn't an OHKO. And I provided you the calcs for DD vs Bulk Yve, Yve is not going to counter any Zygarde set that can be viably run in AG.

248 HP is not the only Fairyceus set; defensive sets are extremely viable as well and certainly more standard; these do, in fact, counter Zygarde.
Agreed with the Fairyceus set, but check this out
+2 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 342-403 (77 - 90.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Zygarde: 306-360 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Here's the scenario; Zygarde sets up DD on the Fairyceus switch in, Fairyceus judges and Zyg DD's again (and unless it's a 6%/43% if rocks, Zygarde survives). Zygarde then goes for Z TA, which will kill Fairyceus and most likely sweep 1/4 games, and will leave Fairyceus crippled in the rest. All these are odds Zygarde has vs a mon that is designed solely to counter it. And also, this is considering Fairyceus comes in full health. Furthermore, Mgar/Ferro/Mag/Poisonceus are all very common Zyg team options which will cripple Fairyceus just enough. And you're not losing much by running Zyg, there's no opportunity cost unless you have a better Z move user, it usually only needs 1-2 mons to form a solid core and it is likely to sweep entire teams on its own with some chip damage. We ought to be building a shrine for Zygarde by now.

Grassceus comes in on any move bar DD from Draginium Z, and has a chance to beat even that.
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Grass: 363-427 (95.2 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
where's the chance to beat that? Moreover, it's the same argument people will make for calling gira an Mray counter because it has a 'chance' to beat bandray/Draco Mray. It's just not reliable enough.

Lunala, meanwhile, comes in on any move and forces zygarde out, even after rocks, and freely switches in to Coil/DD and smacks the switchin.
Unless it just gets crippled by switching into TA consistently. Scarf Lunala isn't really that difficult to switch into, and every other Lunala set gets OHKO'd after rocks.

Sure, they can be played around, but so can any pokemon ever. Don't say "Only A, B, and C can switch in" when things other than A, B, and C can switch in. This kind of dishonest argument is honestly just so unbecoming; this is a viability nom. You don't need to make stuff up just to be always right.
Isn't that exactly what you're doing? Like you're making dogshit arguments about stuff like Shedinja, Defensive Ogre and Defensive Xern being viable and common switchins for Zygarde, and you're accusing me of making stuff up? lol.
 
Nominating Wobbuffet from C-->D/Unranked
Why the he'll is this ranked with the previous three things I nominated?! Its just bad, its Counter/Mirror Coat shenanigans are bad, and there are way better suicide dbond bombs that arn't complete dead weight offensive wise or after a taunt.
Edit: fk accidentally hit post let me edit the rest in.
I disagree with the Wobbuffet Nomination, Counter/Mirror Coat aren't the only things it can do. This thing supports setup pokémon like no other. With Wobbuffet you can setup the frailest of the frailest with ease. Its slow Encore + Shadow Tag is pretty good you know. I feel like you haven't tried this thing at all, and I think you should.
 

lotiasite

undedgy
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
hi; this is more like a semi-nom but im going to put out my two cents for Lunala to A-

Lunala is a fantastic mon that has quite the versatility; its ability to run many viable sets including Scarf, Specs, and Defensive make it a tad unpredictable, especially with Shadow Shield. Shadow Shield is a great ability which lets Lunala tank basically anything besides a powerful Ghost or Dark type move, allowing it to get off powerful attacks of its own (or even two, with a scarf set), especially when used with its good 137 Special Attack. The Choice Scarf set can revenge kill so many things right now which is also exemplified by its immunity to Extreme Speed. It has decent coverage options like Moonblast, Ice Beam, and Focus Blast, allowing it to check threats like Zygarde-C and even Ekiller Arceus. Moongeist Beam is a pretty reliable STAB attack that has a good base power and, despite its low PP, is really useful. On the Defensive set, Lunala gets access to Roost, allowing it to tank super-strong hits like Mray's Dragon Ascent when combined with Shadow Shield, easily stalling it out with Toxic. It can even viably run a Trick Room set. For all these reasons, I think Lunala definitely deserves to go to A- at the very least. It's on par with other A- mons like Primal Kyogre and Deo-A, even if it might not hit as hard as them. It certainly outclasses Xerneas at this point, I would think.
 
Last edited:
I have tried this, and thought it was only mid ladder I find ot to be an utter waste of a pokemon slot. Great, it can encore with shadow tag, but there are so many better options out there for any purpose other than a dumb meme or lure. Yeah you can't setup on it but there are far better things I think could be used. Its still not deserving of being ranked equally with Zekrom , Clef or other C ranked pokemon it currently shares a place on the VR with.
maybe you should try it in high ladder, mid ladder shouldn't be considered for anything on this VR, I can do very well with Golisopod on mid ladder if I have to, yet I'm nowhere near vouching for that thing to be ranked
 
Nom - Celesteela B - A/A-
In continuation to the nom made by Thimo, I'd like to reiterate exactly how brilliant Celesteela is in the current metagame. It comes with the ability to fit multiple playstyles because of its solid bulk and leech seed spam, something that provides it some much needed momentum for it to fit offense. It can viably run various sets (Flame Charge Celeste is viable, fight me), check multiple mons like non VC Mray, e killers, Groundceus, Supportceus forms and has great matchup against Mgar/Ferro/M2 etc if you slap on flame charge. Toxic gives it a chance to wear down mons without relying entirely on seed. There's just immense utility in a single Mon, and I simply can not think of another bulky wall capable of walling teams on its own with the right set up. This needs to jump.

On a side note, and I'd like opinions of the player base here, I'd like to ask whether there is a level of unfairness involved with reference to the ranking of stall mons. Stall is more than viable as a playstyle and some of the most consistent ladder teams revolve around it. It makes little sense, therefore, that common stall mons like mega sab, gira and Ferrothorn stutter through B ranks, whereas Clefable, Chansey and Quagsire are mid C. The only two mons commonly seen on stall and possessing a high rank rn are Ho oh and Lugia, and ironically, a major reason for this is because they can fit other playstyles. I think this is an archaic way of judging these mons, based off of a theory that stall doesn't work in AG, which has proven to not be true. In my opinion, there needs to be a level of subjectivity involved while judging these mons; not viewing them for what they do, but rather whether they complement the collective whole of a team and whether or not any Mon can do their job better. What I'm essentially trying to say is that for a playstyle so common, our VR just isn't representing stall's potential enough.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
They aren't ranked low because of stall being historically bad, they're ranked low because the preliminary rankings were still somewhat based off of gen 6 biases and that's where all of the people who helped make the initial VR thought they'd fit best. There's no reason why we can't reexamine their rankings just as strictly as we've talked about where xern and pdon need to go, and if anybody has nominations concerning these mons then I'd encourage them to post.
 

Chloe

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
NUPL Champion
Update Time

Accepted Nominations
Code:
Arceus A → A+
Arceus-Electric Unranked → D
Arceus-Fire Unranked → D
Arceus-Flying Unranked → D
Arceus-Grass D → C
Arceus-Ground A- → A
Arceus-Ice Unranked → D
Arceus-Poison C+ → B-
Barbaracle Unranked → D
Breloom C- → C
Celesteela B → A-
Chansey C → C+
Deoxys-Speed B- → B
Excadrill C → B-
Ferrothorn B → B+
Groudon-Primal A+ → A
Gothitelle D → C+
Kartana D → C-
Landorus-Therian C- → C
Lunala B+ → A-
Magearna B+ → B
Mewtwo-Mega-X Unranked → B
Mewtwo-Mega-Y Unranked → B-
Quagsire C → C+
Reshiram Unranked → D
Scizor Unranked → D
Scizor-Mega C+ → C
Shuckle D → C
Smeargle C+ → B-
Zekrom C → C+
Zygarde-Complete A → A+
Arceus-Dark B+ → A-
Clefable C → C+
Tentacruel C → C+/B-
Tyranitar C → B-
Wobbuffet C → D/Unranked


Thanks to everyone for nominations and the council for processing through them. Rejected nominations can always be revisited if appropriate evidence is given.
 
Alright, so I'm making these nominations with the sole purpose of getting a bit more realism in the VR. A lot of the mons that I'm nominating will seem initially like they don't belong that high because of some obviously gaping holes in their individual sets or simply because you wouldn't look at the mon on its own and think "Oh, this mon fits x rank because it can put this much of an impact". Stall is a playstyle that works on a chain reaction sort of a system, and I am going to be focusing solely on what fits this chain the best, and how solid the final product of this team would be; and how much this particular mon contributed towards that product. A lot of emphasis will be laid on stall teams that have seen a lot of success in AG, cores that are really hard to break and wall a majority of the viable threats as well as the opportunity cost and whether or not there is a replacement for that particular job. I hope that people do not bring in gen 6 arguments into play, and some of the following assumptions are agreed by the majority as legitimate reasons for my nominations -

1- Darkrai is gone, and that makes stall much more playable than it was before. Moreover, this influences the previously prevalent need to have Clefable in all stall teams because of it being the only reliable answer to Nasty Plot Darkrai (there's an assumption that Clefable isn't as splash-able as it was before).
2- Arceus-Ghost and Yveltal have seen some sort of a boost in viability, and this has kind of impacted how viable Giratina previously used to be (along with the drop in Normalceus usage)
3- Mega Rayquaza is still the most viable stall breaker in the metagame.
4- A lot of the mons in high A ranks have some pretty big holes (Ghostceus' weakness to Yveltal, Yveltal's issue of letting Xerneas set up etc), but these holes are not difficult to fix. Therefore, considering stall basically relies on tactical switching between a set of mons, if a particular mon has a very obvious weakness, whether or not that weakness can be covered by another viable stall mon easily will be taken into consideration. In simple words, synergy with other mons is important.

With that being said,


Ferrothorn from B+ to A-
Ferrothorn is just one of the most solid utility mons for stall, while being one of the most reliable p ogre checks. It's also one of the better rock setters that stall can go for, while it blanket checks a huge bulk of the meta. It tends to check most CM ceus forms as well, and provides a lot of room for effective seed-and-switch. It gets the additional potential of running spikes, substitute or knock off to cripple opposing stall. Furthermore, there isn't too much of a hassle when you try to fit this to balance or even BO to an extent. Look at all the successful stalls so far in AG and like half of them have ferro. You just can't find many other mons which do the jobs that ferro does, and in terms of sheer viability, it fits A- and it should be represented in the rankings as one of the most viable stall mons, because it is.

Lugia from B+ to A-
Speaking of things that wall a majority of the meta, Lugia is an obvious nomination if there has to be a more appropriate ranking of viability. This was previously pushed down to B+ because there was a fear that both Yveltal and Arceus-Ghost were going to be S ranks, but that didn't quite happen. It can check Mega Gengar with Psychic, is one of the only reliable switch ins for Zygarde and does all of this while boasting of a tremendous speed tier. If the team manages to keep rocks off, there is no mon that can be more terrifying to take out than Lugia because of its incorrigible resolve. I don't believe that this thing belongs in the B rank. Also, please note that Muk-Alola on its own pursuit traps a bunch of the mons that switch into Lugia.

Giratina from B to B+
I believe this will be my most controversial nom because of how difficult it has become for giratina to defog in gen 7. The drop of Normalceus and increase of Ghostceus/Yveltal in usage has meant that Giratina almost never switches in safely to defog, and when it does, it often finds itself facing a rock setter that has been designed to beat it. While this goes against its jump in viability, a lot of the common stall teams run more than just one defogger, and in all of those teams, gira is one of the two defoggers. It is so because of it being one of the best pressure-defog abusers while having access to rest and toxic for wearing down rock setters like Primal Groudon and supportceus. Moreover, it checks non draco Mray (which is uncommon) and is one of the most important mons in stall vs stall battles. I'm hesitating to ask for this to jump to A ranks because of its reduced opportunities to defog, but I think a future nomination of A- is justified for this.

Mega Sableye from B to B+
Alright, in terms of sheer exclusivity, Mega sableye holds an undisputed claim to bulky mega bounce, which is something that is always going to be handy for stall. Furthermore, this contributes to any stall which needs an answer for Lele offense or annoying web setters, whereas providing a sure-shot lead mon for stall to later dictate terms with solid switching is very underrated. Sab's ability to just provide some momentum to stall is something that is never talked about, along with its absolute blocking of hazards initially coupled with its wisp + foul play combination. It also gets prankster for an early burn if predicted right. There is little doubt that stall does often require Msab and nothing else can reliably replace it.

Muk-Alola from C+ to B-
Considering how badly Yveltal/Mega Gengar/Lunala can fuck up stall, there's no doubt that Muk-Alola has a niche in this playstyle. I think the sole reason for this not being way higher in ranks is because of its lack of recovery, and tbh, it isn't that big considering it won't need recovery to counter the mons that it is supposed to counter. This also allows for stuff like Clefable/Lugia/Pyuku to breathe easier, and can significantly shift the momentum of any game towards the staller. I think this is an extremely viable fit for stall, and looking at what else is at B- ranks (base ogre, Solgaleo, Skarmory), I think it certainly fits much better.

Out.
 
I'm liking the activity on the resource thread lol, anyways, couple new Nominations, Speed Tier requests and Role Compendium requests :P

Nominations:

to C-

This thing might seem outclassed by Solgaleo but I'd say its the other way around. Mega Metagross hits much much harder, it hits a whole new speedtier, has access to a ton of coverage, and more importantly, priority. Meteor Mash having a slight chance of its Attack boosted is nice too. Mega Metagross isn't seen much but it has its uses.

to D
Terrakion has 2 things it can do, SR lead and a Choice Scarf set. It hits pretty hard and can dish out hits pretty nicely. Justified makes it a nice Yveltal and Arceus-Dark check. Darkrai getting nerfed this gen kinda nerfed this thing too, but its still pretty good. And last but not least, its literally in speed tiers, but not in vr.

to D
Dugtrio can trap a lot of stuff. It traps a whole variety of pokémon including Groudon-Primal, Arceus-Poison, Magearna. It can also function as SR lead. It has access to Memento which helps with setting up stuff. Dugtrio can use Reversal with Focus Sash to defeat the likes of Ekiller and Arceus-Steel. It can also remove pokémon from stall like Tentacruel, which supports the team.

to C-
Cloyster is a pretty good suicide lead. Access to Tspikes, Spikes, Rapid Spin. It also has late game sweeping potential with Shell Smash and Icicle Spear. This thing is already put on Speed Tiers yet it ain't even ranked just like Terrakion smh. A Life Orb set is pretty swag too in Psychic Terrain. Its Defense lets it setup on most physical moves and its stupidly strong, and the best part, nobody expects it.

to Unranked
With the nerf Prankster has gotten, Whimsicott went from subpar to garbage. Yveltal now is a reliable switch in to it. Its easily played around and the Prankster nerf even means it can't reliable Memento out either. All in all, it's rubbish.

to D
Mawilite got released recently and I've tried it out and its D rank worthy imo. It works nicely as Xerneas and Yveltal check, and is a great partner of Kyogre-Primal. Baton Pass let's it pivot. Mawile has access to a cool variety of moves but it suffers from a 4mss imo. Mawile can also be used on Baton Pass chains, which lets it support against Yve. Intimidate pre-mega is also pretty useful.

Speed Tier requests:
602
(252+ at +2 // Sand Rush)
519
(252+ at +1)
483
(252+ at +1)
478
(252 at +2 // Shell Smash)
470
(252 at +2 // Shell Smash)
418
(252 at +1 // Flame Charge)
416
(252+)
394
(252+)
372
(252+)
350
(252+)
346
(252+)
330
(216)
309
(252+)
307
(124)
306
(252+)
298
(88)
287
(252+)
281
(252)
279
(252)
275
(252)
262
(252+)
240
(252+ at -1 // V-create)
239
(252)
235
(252)
233
(252+ at -1 // Hammer Arm)
219
(252 at -1 // V-Create)
166
(0)
136
(0)
121
(0- with 0 IVs)
112
(0- with 0 IVs)
076
(0)

Something to think about: Should we add pre-Mega Speed Tiers? They can be important when switching.

Compendium Requests:
Mega Pokémon

Stealth Rock

Spikes

Toxic Spikes

Defog

Rapid Spin

Priority (not inc. Prankster)

Wish

Aromatherapy / Heal Bell

Pursuit

Swords Dance

Calm Mind

Double Team / Minimize
Remove:

Shell Smash


Z-Crystal

Choice Band

Choice Scarf


Arceus Checks

Arceus-Ghost Checks

Arceus-Steel Checks

Gengar-Mega Checks

Rayquaza-Mega Checks

Xerneas Checks

Yveltal Checks

Zygarde-Complete Checks


Suggested New Categories
Sticky Web

Bulk Up / Coil

Taunt

Baton Pass
 
Last edited:

SaturnZelda

formerly TylerWithNumbers
I'm liking the activity on the resource thread lol, anyways, couple new Nominations, Speed Tier requests and Role Compendium requests :P

Nominations:

to C-

This thing might seem outclassed by Solgaleo but I'd say its the other way around. Mega Metagross hits much much harder, it hits a whole new speedtier, has access to a ton of coverage, and more importantly, priority. Meteor Mash having a slight chance of its Attack boosted is nice too. Mega Metagross isn't seen much but it has its uses.

to D
Terrakion has 2 things it can do, SR lead and a Choice Scarf set. It hits pretty hard and can dish out hits pretty nicely. Justified makes it a nice Yveltal and Arceus-Dark check. Darkrai getting nerfed this gen kinda nerfed this thing too, but its still pretty good. And last but not least, its literally in speed tiers, but not in vr.

to D
Dugtrio can trap a lot of stuff. It traps a whole variety of pokémon including Groudon-Primal, Arceus-Poison, Magearna. It can also function as SR lead. It has access to Memento which helps with setting up stuff. Dugtrio can use Reversal with Focus Sash to defeat the likes of Ekiller and Arceus-Steel. It can also remove pokémon from stall like Tentacruel, which supports the team.

to C-
Cloyster is a pretty good suicide lead. Access to Tspikes, Spikes, Rapid Spin. It also has late game sweeping potential with Shell Smash and Icicle Spear. This thing is already put on Speed Tiers yet it ain't even ranked just like Terrakion smh. A Life Orb set is pretty swag too in Psychic Terrain. Its Defense lets it setup on most physical moves and its stupidly strong, and the best part, nobody expects it.

to Unranked
With the nerf Prankster has gotten, Whimsicott went from subpar to garbage. Yveltal now is a reliable switch in to it. Its easily played around and the Prankster nerf even means it can't reliable Memento out either. All in all, it's rubbish.

to D
Mawilite got released recently and I've tried it out and its D rank worthy imo. It works nicely as Xerneas and Yveltal check, and is a great partner of Kyogre-Primal. Baton Pass let's it pivot. Mawile has access to a cool variety of moves but it suffers from a 4mss imo. Mawile can also be used on Baton Pass chains, which lets it support against Yve. Intimidate pre-mega is also pretty useful.

Speed Tier requests:
602
(252+ at +2 // Sand Rush)
519
(252+ at +1)
483
(252+ at +1)
478
(252 at +2 // Shell Smash)
470
(252 at +2 // Shell Smash)
418
(252 at +1 // Flame Charge)
416
(252+)
394
(252+)
372
(252+)
350
(252+)
346
(252+)
330
(216)
309
(252+)
307
(124)
306
(252+)
298
(88)
287
(252+)
281
(252)
279
(252)
275
(252)
262
(252+)
240
(252+ at -1 // V-create)
239
(252)
235
(252)
233
(252+ at -1 // Hammer Arm)
219
(252 at -1 // V-Create)
166
(0)
136
(0)
121
(0- with 0 IVs)
112
(0- with 0 IVs)

Something to think about: Should we add pre-Mega Speed Tiers? They can be important when switching.

Compendium Requests:
Mega Pokémon
(
)
Stealth Rock
(
)
Spikes
(
)
Toxic Spikes
(
)
Defog

Rapid Spin
(
)
Priority (not inc. Prankster)
(
)
Wish

Aromatherapy / Heal Bell

Pursuit

Swords Dance
(
)
Calm Mind

Double Team / Minimize
(
) Remove:

Shell Smash
(
)

Z-Crystal
(
)
Choice Band

Choice Scarf
(
)

Arceus Checks
(
)
Arceus-Ghost Checks

Arceus-Steel Checks
(
)
Gengar-Mega Checks

Rayquaza-Mega Checks

Xerneas Checks
(
)
Yveltal Checks
(
)
Zygarde-Complete Checks
(
)

Suggested New Categories
Sticky Web

Bulk Up / Coil
I have two questions. First, when did Arceus-Poison become such a big deal? I haven't see it besides maybe twice this gen, and now it's suddenly mentioned in every resource post. Also, how does Lunala get to +1?

Edit: Oops, forgot about Z-Hypnosis. Don't mind me.
 
Poisonceus is basically Magearna with Arceus' stats and can actually hit P dong on the switchin. Heart swap isn't that much better than psych up in this case because sludge OHKO's from around 70% (or z sludge for the lol moment). The poison chance off of sludge is pretty nice too.
 

SaturnZelda

formerly TylerWithNumbers
Poisonceus is basically Magearna with Arceus' stats and can actually hit P dong on the switchin. Heart swap isn't that much better than psych up in this case because sludge OHKO's from around 70% (or z sludge for the lol moment). The poison chance off of sludge is pretty nice too.
I have an argument against this. Xerneas has no move that can OHKO a max Special Defense Magearna, but it does have a semi-viable one for Arceus-Poison in the form of Psychic/Psyshock. This was run last gen when the exact set you mentioned became popular. Just a thought.

Also, it's true that Poisonceus has a lot more offensive presence than Magearna when Xerneas isn't on the field. But, it is checked by lots of common mons in the meta (See Ghostceus, Magearna itself, Primal Groudon, etc).
 
I have two questions. First, when did Arceus-Poison become such a big deal? I haven't see it besides maybe twice this gen, and now it's suddenly mentioned in every resource post. Also, how does Lunala get to +1?

Edit: Oops, forgot about Z-Hypnosis. Don't mind me.
that moment you completely forget Choice Scarf exists, anyways I'd say Ghostceus doesn't really check Poisonceus bc the Wisp set is still pretty good, and how does Magearna check it again when it can't even get rid of the damn thing.
 
Last edited:
And also, psyshock is one of the rarest viable coverage moves on Xern, and moreover, it doesn't OHKO Poisonceus. And all the mons you mentioned check Magearna better than they check Poisonceus.
 

SaturnZelda

formerly TylerWithNumbers
that moment you completely forget Choice Scarf exists, anyways I'd say Ghostceus doesn't really check Poisonceus bc the Wisp set is still pretty good, and how does Magearna check it again when it can't even get rid of the damn thing.
It doesn't check Xerneas very well with the Wisp set though. Now we're running like 6 moves.
 

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