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Tournament Anything Goes Winter League - Format Discussion and Suggestions

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Frozoid

Frozoid

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Hey everyone, DLC 2 is upon us and is expected to give us a different metagame. Also, the year is coming to an end, and like the past three years, we are planning to host a winter team tour early next year.

We are looking to explore other formats than Snake draft, which has been the sole format of the winter league, so feel free to drop ideas or give input on what you'd like to see in the tour regarding the slots and its format.
 
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Agree with most of this. 15 starters, 3 managers, 4 retains, 4 subs, 250k budget IMO. Make superteams.
Include BW and DPP AG. 2 bo3s. Lots of SV and SS and SM. Big tournament & Big teams = lots of experienced players get to work with newcomers. Dynamic Manager Prices is bad.
tier said:
me when i troll asf. ^

12-15 people
Mucho money auction. 150k
dynamic manager self buys so fc + entro self buy is 60k and tier + hg self buy is 15k
1 bo3 altho 2 sounds fun
2-4 SV
2 SS
maybe an oras
Click to expand...
 
keep snake; snake is fine & it's a good way to make sure talent ends up evenly distributed. There straight up aren't enough players for some of these crazy big team ideas. Retains are a great way to get stagnant teams that don't change much over time. This isn't ou or ubers. Retains work fine there because they have such a deep playerbase that there are always up-and-comers who can compete with the established players but here the rate of growth is just so small that retains will just petrify the tournament. Personally, Snake Draft has always been my favorite ag team tour, since it's generally been a more relaxed atmosphere with less of the crazy circlejerk stuff that tends to happen in pl, and because the teams generally tend to be more evenly matched. I intend to play in this tournament this year if it keeps a snake draft format, but if it turns into some bloated monstrosity then I'd be less likely to play, for whatever that's worth.

tl;dr keep snake
 
personally i wanna try and introduce new people so AG doesnt just die lol, outside of that having the same teams is meaningless, more and more relevant AG players quit yearly and nearly no new talent is found. From that I think its more than reasonable to ditch the idea of snake because literally who cares if a tournament with no prize is equally distributed, just draft well and it will be lol, and having crazy big teams means that the worse players get picked up because you simply have a quota to fill, team chats are slightly more active and people have the option to get tests vs good opponents from which they can learn and improve. I dont see myself ever playing with some room rando to help them get better at AG in the middle of my day, but I do see myself responding to a ping from one of my players and telling them where their team and play falls short, that to me is how you develop a playerbase and this tier is sorely in need of it. Also, the reason for snake being more chill, is because nothing is on the line, i couldnt care less if i go 0-7 for no prize other than pride whereas AGPL youre usually playing with your friends and you wanna help them get that goal of the custom. My two cents, snake is insanely boring and changing to auction does not possibly affect how relaxed the tournament feels.
 
If you want to do large teams, there's a number of issues you must address. Depending on the number of teams, you either can't field enough players (at least with the size of the current AG community) or the tour is too short, especially if we want to get metagame developement for DLC 2. Even with four teams you have 25% more starters than AGPL, which simply won't work. I think we could give this a shot next year IF the playerbase grows. This isn't the place to discuss how we would accomplish this, but the point stands that this simply wouldn't work currently.

For the most part, I agree with most of reasons Geysers made for why we should keep Snake. Do we really want to have fourth auction with AG in only eight months? I think Snake is far more inviting for newer players, which has been an issue throughout Gen 9. In fact, I think we should expand Snake, adding 2 SV slots, in an attempt to get new talent to come around. Related to this, I am going to make another suggestion, that we include a Best of Three SV slot. Not only is Bo3 more competitive, but it will also lend to having more exciting matches for spectators (something I found AGPL to be lacking) because most teams will likely elect to play their best player in Bo3. Even if an auction is chosen over Snake, I think that the best slots for metas would be:
Code: 
SV
SV
SV
Bo3 SV
SS
USUM
ORAS
Multigen Bo3 (SV, SS, USUM)



tier said:
personally i wanna try and introduce new people so AG doesnt just die lol, outside of that having the same teams is meaningless, more and more relevant AG players quit yearly and nearly no new talent is found. From that I think its more than reasonable to ditch the idea of snake because literally who cares if a tournament with no prize is equally distributed, just draft well and it will be lol, and having crazy big teams means that the worse players get picked up because you simply have a quota to fill, team chats are slightly more active and people have the option to get tests vs good opponents from which they can learn and improve.
Click to expand...
I can see why the idea of big teams is appealing but in practice most games would be filler pick vs filler pick or an established player crushing a filler pick. Neither of which make for an exciting tournament and wouldn't be too appealing for new players.

tier said:
i couldnt care less if i go 0-7 for no prize other than pride whereas AGPL youre usually playing with your friends and you wanna help them get that goal of the custom.
Click to expand...
YOU are playing on a team with YOUR friends. New players don't have many friends and would just feel isolated, which really turns people off. If you actually want to get more people interested, then this is the worst way to go about it. It's really funny how your AGPL team played someone who wasn't an established player ONE TIME and you're pretending like the format is friendly to newcomers (this is also an issue with retains but that's another discussion.)

On the flip side, as someone with literally no tour experience a year ago, I can confidently say that Snake is a far friendlier format for new players because even the established players are typically put in with people they aren't too familiar with.

If you think there being a prize is better for the tour, then by all means try to get one arranged.
 
While we’re on this topic, and given that UU Ubers just came out, why not do a “UU AGPL” at some point? It could be managed by vets and player spots could only be eligible to players with less than X games played in a team tournament or have some low number X or less wins in a team tour or some sort of criteria that allows newer or lesser-accomplished players have the spotlight.
 
TaxFraud said:
If you want to do large teams, there's a number of issues you must address. Depending on the number of teams, you either can't field enough players (at least with the size of the current AG community) or the tour is too short, especially if we want to get metagame developement for DLC 2. Even with four teams you have 25% more starters than AGPL, which simply won't work. I think we could give this a shot next year IF the playerbase grows. This isn't the place to discuss how we would accomplish this, but the point stands that this simply wouldn't work currently.

For the most part, I agree with most of reasons Geysers made for why we should keep Snake. Do we really want to have fourth auction with AG in only eight months? I think Snake is far more inviting for newer players, which has been an issue throughout Gen 9. In fact, I think we should expand Snake, adding 2 SV slots, in an attempt to get new talent to come around. Related to this, I am going to make another suggestion, that we include a Best of Three SV slot. Not only is Bo3 more competitive, but it will also lend to having more exciting matches for spectators (something I found AGPL to be lacking) because most teams will likely elect to play their best player in Bo3. Even if an auction is chosen over Snake, I think that the best slots for metas would be:
Code: 
SV
SV
SV
Bo3 SV
SS
USUM
ORAS
Multigen Bo3 (SV, SS, USUM)




I can see why the idea of big teams is appealing but in practice most games would be filler pick vs filler pick or an established player crushing a filler pick. Neither of which make for an exciting tournament and wouldn't be too appealing for new players.


YOU are playing on a team with YOUR friends. New players don't have many friends and would just feel isolated, which really turns people off. If you actually want to get more people interested, then this is the worst way to go about it. It's really funny how your AGPL team played someone who wasn't an established player ONE TIME and you're pretending like the format is friendly to newcomers (this is also an issue with retains but that's another discussion.)

On the flip side, as someone with literally no tour experience a year ago, I can confidently say that Snake is a far friendlier format for new players because even the established players are typically put in with people they aren't too familiar with.

If you think there being a prize is better for the tour, then by all means try to get one arranged.
Click to expand...
I think you spoke before reading, I brought up AGPL and friends to talk abt how “snake” / this tour, is going to be friendlier and easier simply because established players care less, and from that it is more conducive to having worse players join and grow. I do not want a prize for this tour nor do I care if there is one or not, also AGPL is definitely not conducive to new talent, I didn’t even pretend to act like it was

“It's really funny how your AGPL team played someone who wasn't an established player ONE TIME and you're pretending like the format is friendly to newcomers”

I think AGPL has the same 10 broken AG players + established tour players who don’t touch AG but want a free custom or play some Ubers lol. I want snake to be more inviting to people.

“This isn't the place to discuss how we would accomplish this, but the point stands that this simply wouldn't work currently”

imo this is definitely the place to be discussing this, the point of tours like these are to foster meta development, scout some talent for the big PLs and to play for your pride lol.

The entire point of my paragraph was to say snake offers nothing of advantage vs auction (I don’t see how snake is “more inviting for new players” I think it makes for bland drafts and people sitting there bored, I can’t try to get away with a cheap buy and maybe get a 3k with the extra money that I wouldn’t have otherwise if everyone is getting the same number of guys) and that this tour should have more slots / players particularly in SV to have newer players introduced into the tournament setting. If filler plays filler idgaf lol that happens in every tour at least they’re getting show time and learning. As for new players being isolated, I’ve played tours across tiers I hadn’t even touched before randomly joining the PL lol, people always welcome new faces if they have the willingness to learn and have fun, I don’t see why this would be any different. Sure someone might draft their jerk and someone might draft only newbies who go 0-9 but I don’t see why that is a negative if it’s only AG Winter tour
 
Interesting discussion and opinions popping up. On that note, I would also like to share my opinions because I'm bored and have nothing better to do.

I seem to agree with everyone here so far. Making it more competitive would make questions on snake and also not giving new players a chance to prove what they're all about. And keeping in mind the current AG community isn't crazy high in number, I think we won't see as much of a participation as to what we're thinking here. But I think it's worth experimenting once for sure. I think after snake, once the meta has stabilized and we have more activity in the AG community.

As for the slots and format, I personally have this preference -

- SV
- SV
- Bo3 SV
- SM
- SM
- SS
- Multigen Bo3 (SV, SM, SS)

You can possibly replace the second SM slot with ORAS if you want to, which is fine I think. Just going with SM because it's a fun and versatile gen, so I would like to see two slots of SM which could possibly make old players return.

As I said, we can look to initiate this tour once snake has wrapped up and the meta has stabilized. I can definitely see this being as a really fun and off-competitive tournament, which can for sure increase activity in the AG community. Besides, I think snake does a good job of inviting newer players to show their worth so we should keep that in mind. Not against this initiative at all, I think it would be unfair to skip snake since it has become kind of a tradition.

That's it for my opinions, folks! Hope you enjoyed reading and somewhat agree with my opinions. It's fine if you don't, feel free to disagree and question my opinion.
 
Wanted to get my opinion out there for this tour’s format. I personally have no idea how snake is more friendly for newer talent or helps level the playing field. Why is this such a common take in this thread, am I missing something? I’m failing to see what snake provides that an auction lacks in this area. If anything, auctions help with this more because you don’t have a hard player cap and can grab more 3k subs if desired. The ‘better’ players will still go early in the draft with the ‘worse’ or newer players being picked up near the end. I don’t get how a snake draft is supposed to magically change this trajectory with a bias for the newer players. Snake drafts are just extremely boring in concept. Auctions have much more nuance to them, which tends to make them more exciting for the spectators, players and managers.

To give this tournament real identity, it has to start with the list of tiers anyway first and foremost. A few current gen slots + the rest filled with old gens is not the way to go about it, though it’s the most popular suggestion in this thread. What sets this tournament apart from AGPL with a format list like this? It ends up just literally becoming an AGPL that happens to be hosted during the winter.

I see the desire to make this tour more fun—not to the point that it’s devoid of competitive integrity, but simply more fun than other AG tours. I do not think that snake format will accomplish this. I don’t think having a format list almost identical to AGPL will accomplish this. Some more creative ideas should be sought out instead, some of which are commonly seen in other Winter PLs (take Monotype for example, which has tiers ranging from Mono LC to Mono CAP in comparison to their standard PL which is just CG + old gens):

You can experiment with Tera in one of the slots, removing it entirely or making only one Pokemon locked into having it.

You can add a Same Type Clause slot, bringing in Monotype players who may have never interacted with AG in the first place or vice versa. This is why ”collaborating” with another community is like community growth 101.

You can add BW and DPP AG. They’re not popular enough for their own slot, so perhaps consider them for a crazy Gen 4-8 BO5 slot? They’re underdeveloped tiers with communities, even if small, that would almost certainly appreciate having this tour as a stage (even though I don’t particularly care for either personally).

Prioritize SV. I like the old gens more, but I think current gen should be given at least 3-4 slots before anything else. Keep the old gens, but don’t have them take up too many slots. Gen 8-6 BO3, which has become a bit of a standard in AG tours, could work in tandem with the BO5 I mentioned or just as a standalone pick as old gen representation. Other tournaments such as AGPL can continue to exist as the one that provides many more old gen slots.

I’m fully for an auction style draft with 8 teams. Require 8 starters with a minimum of 2 subs; have the starting price be 130k. Allow 1-2 player managers depending on community preference. Increasing the amount of teams will in turn increase the amount of players drafted by default, which should actually help more newer talent get picked up. Prizes will obviously increase sign-ups, so if there isn’t one already taken by another tournament for AG, then I would place it here as well.

I don’t agree with the opinion that snake is better for newer talent or that it levels the playing field (between both managers and players). Auction is the better format—it is more fun for the player, the managers, and it is more competitive in nature given the added strategy that comes with auctioning.

Please don’t just make this tournament “AGPL But In The Winter” with the same current gen + the rest old gens format list (even if it ends up being snake draft). This tour needs its own identity, and I think a mix of unique and creative tiers can provide that identity. I typed up some format ideas above to get the ball rolling.

8 teams, 8 starters, 2 subs minimum, 130k auction, 1-2 player managers allowed
My personal opinion bruvs
 
While discussing this in the room last night (and while singing ndm's praises), I was asked to write up my thoughts in the thread. I mostly agree with temp's post. AG Winter Tour, or whatever it will be called, should be a more fun and goofy tour designed to get people into the metagame while AGPL should be the more serious one. It should be focused on current gen if possible (old gens can be included, but shouldn't be the main attraction) as that gets the most "new talent" into the metagame usually. Ideally, you'd like to have 8 slots and 6 or 8 teams to make this tour successful, but that all depends on the number of sign ups.

Personally, I really like the idea of having a few fun slots that would never show up in a typical AG tour. Whether that be Monotype/Monothreat, incorporating BW/DPP into a slot, or something even weirder like CAP AG, I think this is a good way to spice things up. I'd like to suggest something else in this vein as well, AG OMs. When I was still very active in the room, people loved when we did crazy AG roomtours with OM rules. Example: STABmons AG where every move is allowed, so you had Spore + Ice Beam Caly-S, Shift Gear + Double Iron Bash Zacian-C (this was later found out to be impossible), Shore Up Groudon, etc. I wouldn't mind seeing any of the OM rulesets used, but from what I remember, MnM, AAA, and STAB were always the most popular tours to run. You could even have this OM slot rotate every 2 weeks or whatever, so people aren't playing the same obviously broken metagame for the entire tour since that could get boring fast. This also might bring back some of the OM people who used to play in AG tours when they were technically a part of OMs.

If it's not possible to have funny slots for AG Winter Tour, I'd look into doing something like Ubers did with slot boosting or something similar to make this more interesting. Temp's idea of messing with tera or even banning mons for a slot also seems interesting if needed.

Just my thoughts on the format, but what do I know... I'm barely around anymore lol
 
I'm pretty late with this, but I agree with the general sentiment that this tournament needs a unique identity and support the inclusion of other formats beyond what we already see in AGPL. Given there has been a lot of interest in having slots with old gens and OM rulesets, I'd like to propose introducing a Gen 8 DLC 1 NatDex AG slot. A lot of the players I know (Icemaster, Andyboy, Fardin, Nevelle, Kate, Will, Geysers, myself) regard it as one of, if not the most fun and balanced AG format, and I think it has legitimacy given it used to be the primary current gen AG format and has an established metagame. While there was some discussion about including it in the last edition of AGPL, it was denied entry chiefly because it can be thought of as a sandbox. However, if the majority of people agree that the main focus of this tournament is fun over competitiveness, I don't see why NatDex shouldn't be a part of it; it has genuine support behind its inclusion, and playerbase size will very likely not be an issue, as evidenced above. Even if it isn't a challengeable format, challenge codes (example) can be used to play it, and if the movepool changes from DLC 1 to DLC 2 are too annoying to work around, then at the very least allow Gen 8 DLC 2 NatDex to be a slot and grant people the choice to make a gentleman's to ban Calyrex-Shadow, although I think this isn't ideal.
 
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Agree with the above post, with the caveat that I don't agree with the gentleman agreement section bit. If we're including up to 12-14 tiers, it makes no sense to not include what was the main format and definitely the most beloved AG gen of all time in there. Other bigger tournaments like TPP use (far more complicated) custom rulesets all the time, and it largely goes fine - and bacon is willing to write up the challenge code for it. If that really isn't acceptable though, you can do "Gen 8 National Dex AG DLC 2 without Calyrex-Shadow". And given it was close to being added in an 8 slot AGPL, it really should be in this 14 slot tournament. We know of at least 7 good players who would love to play this format again; you only need 4 starters in this tour. It doesn't matter how jank you think the format is / if it is difficult to verify your teams in the builder, since wee literally have a large amount of experienced players from the time willing to go in and play it again, who are well aware of all the builder restrictions. And beyond that, it is a very fun tier to watch and play.

Please read the post I made on this last time (which got lots of support but ultimately didn't make the cut) :blobthumbsup:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/agpl-iv-format-discussion.3701625/post-9209900

If Gen 8 Natdex AG DLC 1 isn't included, it should be explained why beyond the points that are refuted in mine and Bacon's posts, as honestly I think it is an obvious inclusion. One moderator not liking the format isn't a good enough reason. It was only 3 AGPLs ago that it was the main slot ~25 people playing it weekly. Something like BW/DPP/UU AG being added would be insane and completely nonsensical in light of this, or adding even more SV/SS/SM/bo3 slots would also be ridiculous given that they really don't that many active players. Let's add a tier that we know is wanted, rather than some random spitballed idea.
 
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