Like I said Draco is probably better in most scenarios, but Body Press definitely could be useful. You trade being able to hit Dragapult, Dracovish, and Dracozolt super effectively for the ability to immediately threaten Bisharp, Excadrill, and TTar (apple acid is only a 3HKO including spdef drops and that’s only if it isn’t AV). It also allows you to actually touch Ferrothorn (a possible 4HKO from a defensive mon isn’t something I’d consider negligible damage) as well as still threaten Hydreigon and Darmanitan with heavy damage on the switch. You also still have Leech Seed, so if you predict correctly the dragons aren’t going to come in for free either. I think it really just comes down to what your team needs and what teammates you’re running with it.
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Pokémon Appletun
- Thread starter MattL
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While I love Appletun, I think it would be only a niche option in OU, but definitely a top-threat in UU (I don't think It'd fall any lower, but who knows)
Although slow and obviously oriented as an defensive mon, it's sad it doesn't get any special coverage. Like, Alolan-Exeggutor (Another slow, special attacking Grass/Dragon) got Flamethrower and Sludge Bomb, to help against Steels and Fairies respectively. It could have functioned as slow wallbreaker with Choice Specs or as a Trick Room attacker.
Although slow and obviously oriented as an defensive mon, it's sad it doesn't get any special coverage. Like, Alolan-Exeggutor (Another slow, special attacking Grass/Dragon) got Flamethrower and Sludge Bomb, to help against Steels and Fairies respectively. It could have functioned as slow wallbreaker with Choice Specs or as a Trick Room attacker.
Thanks to Thick Fat, I think Appletun and Ferro could actually run in tandem. In fact, I think Appletun offers some utility to the FerroPex core. With Body Press, you can check Excadrill, who gives the core problems. You can switch in on Fire easily enough. With a Yache Berry, I wonder if you could take a hit from Galarian Darmanitan and take it out with Body Press?
I don't think Appletun and Ferro have to be in a "one or the other" deal because of that. Reliable recovery, essentially a different weakness profile due to Thick Fat, and a useful overall movepool means Appletun and Ferro can play different roles on the same team.
Edit: Why not combine Body Press and Draco? Figure a set of Apple Acid/Body Press/Draco Meteor/Recover with a physically defensive spread and Yache Berry. Blanket check a lot of the meta.
Darmanitan would still 2HKO even with a Yache Berry, so just Leftovers would be better in general. Also, Body Press would mostly be handy to beat Excadrill, since Draco Meteor does more damage to Darmanitan than Body Press (And even Excadrill gets defeated in 3 turns: 1 Apple Acid + 2 Draco Meteor or just 3 Apple Acid)
And I think Draco Meteor would be more useful overall (Specially against Toxapex and G-Corsola)
Yeah, I actually took some time to run some calcs and now I definitely agree. Body Press isn't even a 2HKO on Darm, which is extremely disappointing. And I also recognize running Yache Berry is just about always pointless, so it doesn't seem like Appletun can check Darm at all. Unfortunate.
I agree that right now Appletun definitely can not check Darm, however it appears that dyanamax is going to be banned meaning that Appletun will be an option to check Darm if it goes for EQ or Flare Blitz and is choiced (clearly its best items).
Everyone be aware that Showdown damage calculator does't seem to calculate Body Press right. It calcs it functionally the same way it would Submission, as a base 80 physical fighting move that runs off attack. Appletun with a physically defensive spread packs enough of a punch to break past some checks.
Appletun Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan-Galar: 224-264 (63.8 - 75.2%)
Appletun Body Press vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 108-128 (30.6 - 36.3%)
Appletun Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 276-328 (101.8 - 121%)
Appletun Body Press vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 210-248 (58 - 68.5%)
Appletun Body Press vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 256-304 (66.8 - 79.3%)
Appletun Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 152-180 (46.7 - 55.3%) *Draco Meteor deals 91 - 107.6%
Body Press is definitely a viable option here over Draco Meteor if you don't want to give every Steel type in the meta a free switch in. However Meteor is fine too. I really think it just comes down to team composition and what ends up being most popular in the meta.
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Well, I don't think Appletun's relationship with Darm is all that bad. Even with no Yache Berry, you still have north of an 80% chance to live a Banded Icicle Crash, and Draco Meteor *can* KO back after Rocks.
Clearly, Appletun doesn't check Darm, but I think that's okay. Apple Acid + Draco + Recover gives you the tools to blanket check a lot of the meta. Hydreigon isn't switching in on anything but Recover or a status move and winning. Excadrill loses without having excessive boosts before you come in. Hitting nearly anything with Apple Acid on the switch will give them a shaky matchup thanks to your great defensive typing + Thick Fat, meaning this thing can fit stall teams and not be passive at all.
Even if it doesn't have, say, Spinning, hazard setting or phasing utility, Apple Acid + good bulk + reliable recovery + Thick Fat means this thing can hang in OU. I think it has a shot at being a meaningful Pokemon in OU.
Even with no Body Press, Apple Acid is hard to switch in to. I don't think Steels switch in for free w/ no Body Press. Most of them would take good damage from a follow up Draco, which would effectively be at +1 off a workable special attack stat.
Still, I'd point to my earlier suggestion of Apple Acid/Draco/BP/Recover. I definitely think Body Press to beat Bisharp (who would benefit off of App Acid) and do something to Ferro is more useful than Leech Seed since you already have Recover.
Appletun (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Def / 40 SpA / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Apple Acid
- Draco Meteor
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
44 Spe to outspeed Toxapex and set up a Substitute. 172 HP is enough so G-Corsola's Night Shade won't break your Sub. 32 in Special Attack guarantee the 2HKO on Darmanitan with Draco Meteor. The rest goes on Defense with a Bold nature to better check Excadrill and Dracovish
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Def / 40 SpA / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Apple Acid
- Draco Meteor
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
44 Spe to outspeed Toxapex and set up a Substitute. 172 HP is enough so G-Corsola's Night Shade won't break your Sub. 32 in Special Attack guarantee the 2HKO on Darmanitan with Draco Meteor. The rest goes on Defense with a Bold nature to better check Excadrill and Dracovish
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Hey I'm the batshit player who vomitted out that disgusting post about Appletun stall.
However, I have a non-cancerstall related question for all the rest of you Appletun enthusiasts:
What do you think is Appletun's potential in non-stall, non-semistall builds. Is the general consensus that it's too passive to be an effective defensive pivot in balance or bulky offense? I think we can generally agree that Appletun ain't gonna be doing shit on an full offense build, but I think condemning Appletun to cancer boi status in the current meta environment (especially with the Dynamax suspect going on as we speak) is unfair to our little cutie pie.
I guess technically, Ferrothorn and Appletun have different niches and different resistances they provide (although shared resistances are almost necessary in the water-centric meta that plagues the system right now). Even if Appletun and Ferrothorn can run together on a team simultaneously, I think Appletun's viability unfortunately needs to be considered in terms of Ferrothorn because Ferrothorn represents the pinnacle of grass walls/pivots/hazard setter/everything basically.
EDIT: aim used Appletun on a balancey/bulky offensey team so my question might be answered already:
I'm def testing+modifying this team, I'll report back later. Thanks mencemeat + aim/Anti :]
However, I have a non-cancerstall related question for all the rest of you Appletun enthusiasts:
What do you think is Appletun's potential in non-stall, non-semistall builds. Is the general consensus that it's too passive to be an effective defensive pivot in balance or bulky offense? I think we can generally agree that Appletun ain't gonna be doing shit on an full offense build, but I think condemning Appletun to cancer boi status in the current meta environment (especially with the Dynamax suspect going on as we speak) is unfair to our little cutie pie.
Love this set btw, clearly a lot of thought went into the spread. A few questions come up though, how necessary has sub been for you? I feel like you lose out on a lot without recover since recover is a main selling point for Appletun over Ferro.
I guess technically, Ferrothorn and Appletun have different niches and different resistances they provide (although shared resistances are almost necessary in the water-centric meta that plagues the system right now). Even if Appletun and Ferrothorn can run together on a team simultaneously, I think Appletun's viability unfortunately needs to be considered in terms of Ferrothorn because Ferrothorn represents the pinnacle of grass walls/pivots/hazard setter/everything basically.
EDIT: aim used Appletun on a balancey/bulky offensey team so my question might be answered already:
I'm def testing+modifying this team, I'll report back later. Thanks mencemeat + aim/Anti :]
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This misconception is largely why I find Appletun and Ferro to be capable of running in tandem.
Ferro, as you've stated, has no reliable recovery. Access to Recover is what changes the dynamic of Appletun from Ferro. Ferro can wall certain things, but Ferro itself isn't meant to be played like a wall. If Ferro was your main response to, say, Hydreigon, Dragapult, Inteleon, etc, then Ferro would end up not lasting long in the average game at all, due to its lack of recovery aside from Leech Seed/maybe Protect and Leftovers.
Appletun has good bulk, and good synergy between its typing and ability, along with reliable recovery. If Appletun is your main responses to physical/special attackers, it will generally not disappoint aside from typing disadvantages, such as the aforementioned Darmanitan.
If allowed in lower tiers, Appletun will likely make for the best mixed wall in whatever tier it ends up being allowed in. In OU, Appletun is a wall that isn't passive. Ferrothorn is an excellent defensive utility Pokemon who isn't passive. Wall /=/ defensive utility.
First of all, thanks! I really wanted to find some useful niche for Appletun ti be usable
As for the Substitute, it's mostly to evade status from Toxapex and Corsola-G, and to maybe give it a chance to do some damage in case a counter switches in (By setting up Leech Seed, lowering Special Def with Apple Acid or just using Draco Meteor) and let the sub take the damage.
But feel free to use Recover instead if status is not a worry
I don't think it's a misconception. I think it's pretty fact that Ferrothorn is the epitome of a competitive grass type Pokemon, at least, on the defensive end. I'm not saying that Ferrothorn and Appletun shouldn't be run together either. I'm honestly arguing the opposite, since Ferrothorn is the main response to so many Pokemon right now. Ferrothorn honestly gets pretty overworked in games I've played so far, so the overlap in Ferrothorn and Appletun's roles may outweigh the redundant weaknesses they expose.
Appletun is less passive than Ferrothorn, that's the point of using Apple Acid + Draco Meteor, you melt the defense of an opponent and then nuke it to try and kill. Ferrothorn's issue is that it's very passive by nature since it trends towards its defensive utility or hazards. Ferrothorn needs to choose damage from Power Whip or Gyro Ball or more utility from Knock Off. Appletun has the benefit and restriction of having to use Apple Acid. Spamming acid is not pointless since it gradually grinds down a foe that stays in. Ferrothorn can't usually force a switch from a defensive foe aside from leech seed, yet Appletun can because the opponent's defenses are gradually getting worse ON TOP of leech seeds. That's what I mean by Appletun has less passivity.
Also Appletun checks Dracovish like no other
Yeah, but you can bate the Dracovish into Fishious Rend, or bring Appletun once a teammate fainted and Dracovish is locked into FR.
If both switch in at the same time, you can have a Outrage switching, since Appletun can take the rest of Vish's attacks
So Gravity increases damage from Grav apple.
By symettry I think game freak may have done a hidden effect/synergy with Apple Acid that is representative of a real world scientific situation. No idea what it could be though.
By symettry I think game freak may have done a hidden effect/synergy with Apple Acid that is representative of a real world scientific situation. No idea what it could be though.
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Its probably just a reference to newton's discovery of the law of gravity when an apple fell on his head.
I doubt there is a hidden quirk for apple acid however
According to Bulbapedia the damage gets boosted by 50% (80 --> 120)
Also, even when factoring Hustle, Dragon Rush acc gets boosted to 100%, so you can use that with Gravity (For a Doubles battles for example)
Also, even when factoring Hustle, Dragon Rush acc gets boosted to 100%, so you can use that with Gravity (For a Doubles battles for example)
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