Arceus-Water (QC 2/3) Not Ready For 3rd

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Overview
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- Water STAB is ok, not that good
- Very good typing for a support set
- Defog
- Can run a mono-CM set
- Checks like Ferrothorn have decreased in usage, but Zekrom is still a problem

Support
########
name: Support
move 1: Judgment
move 2: Defog
move 3: Recover
move 4: Will-O-Wisp
ability: Multitype
item: Splash Plate
evs: 252 HP / 144 SDef / 112 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

- Judgment is a somewhat strong STAB that allows Arceus to deal the most damage to common threats like Ho-Oh, always 2HKOing after Rocks, and always breaking any of its Substitutes. It also helps to wear down Groudon (who also hates taking WoW)
- Defog is a great tool for Arceus to support its team by removing all hazards on the field, giving teammates that are prone to a lot of switching or just plain weak to SR a better chance at sweeping
- Recover is a great tool for any support Pokemon that allows it to take a hit, switch out, and come back in later to take another
- Will-O-Wisp allows you to cripple and stall almost any physical attacker, especially those without recovery like Groudon
- Toxic allows Arceus to stall out most walls, or simply weaken them as checks to teammates aiming to sweep
- Roar allows you to phaze out any sweeper that you can live a hit from, such as any CM Arceus that isn't Electric or Grass, or Xerneas lacking Thunder

Set Details
========

- EVs give the most amount of special bulk possible while outspeeding Palkia, Xerneas, and Yveltal without a Choice Scarf.
- An alternate EV spread of 252 HP / 72 SDef / 184 Speed Timid beats Thundurus and Gengar before it mega evolves
- Special Defense EVs can be moved to Defense to take hits from Groudon and Ho-Oh better, but you lose the ability to check special attackers to some extent
- Running max Speed allows you to tie with any Arceus that is also running max Speed, including any CM or even Jolly Extremekiller

Usage Tips
========

- If you have SR on your side, only Defog when you are given a clear opporotunity. Dying just to get a Defog off is pointless if they can set up hazards again. Defog when you are able to live any hit and be able to come back in later only
- Judgment is not that strong without investment, don't try sweeping, use it to stop Pokemon from setting up Substitutes or scare out something weak to it
- Your choice of status move decides what you are able to check easier, don't stay in on, for example, Extremekiller without Will-O unless you are completely sure a teammate can handle it (like any Normal resist that dies to a coverage move)
- Do not expect this to check every special attacker ever. This Arceus is used for support first, you will easily lose to a Xerneas, for example, especially without TWave.
- You are complete setup bait to most special attackers like Xerneas if you do not run Roar, don't expect Judgment to do that much to the point where nothing can set up on you
- If you see a Zekrom in team preview, try not to reveal your Arceus type until it is either sufficiently weakened, or you can confirm it isn't Scarfed, as even a Choice scarf Bolt Strike will do a ton

Team Options
========

- Groudon + Ho-Oh + Arc Water make a really good core
- Yveltal
- Genesect
- Scizor
- Landorus-T
- Gliscor
- Mega Aggron
- Heatran
- Sylveon or Xerneas, as both of them can act as a cleric, and Arceus-Water can take Steel type attacks for them. (though watch out for Aegislash carrying Toxic)

Calm Mind
########
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Recover
move 3: Refresh
move 4: Judgment
ability: Multitype
item: Splash Plate
evs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
nature: Timid

Moves
========

- Calm Mind allows it to boost its Special Attack and Special Defense reliably so it slowly gets strong enough to sweep the opponent while also being very hard to take down
- Recover allows it to continue boosting and slowly gain enough power to sweep the opponents team
- Refresh is used to get rid of status that could potentially stop you from sweeping, and is used over Substitute because Refresh allows you to remove any status move your opponent used on the switch as well
- Judgment is the sole attacking move, being STAB and having no immunities outside of the mostly irrelevant Gastrodon. Water isn't the best attacking type in Ubers though.

Set Details
========

- Maximum Speed and bulk allow Arceus to take more hits while setting up and to tie with other Arceus
- 252 HP / 252 Defense allows you to set up easier against physical attackers

Usage Tips
========

- As with any sweeper, never set up until your checks are weakened to the point you can beat them without taking too much damage
- If your opponent is doing more then 50% consistently, switch out, you won't come out of it with enough health to sweep later
- Use psuedo-"immunities" (more like scaring your opponent) to your advantage. Showing the opponent Refresh discourages the use of status against you, and if the opponent can not directly threaten you, keep any possible switch in mind, and try to continue threatening Pokemon out until you weaken your own checks
- Usually is only able to set up late game, many Pokemon can check it

Team Options
========

- Landorus-T
- Yveltal
- Tyranitar or Mega Scizor to help Pursuit trap Mega Gengar
- Genesect
- Scizor
- Gliscor
- Mega Aggron
- Heatran

Other Options
########

-TWave
- SR > Defog on Support
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- Any possible SD set suffers from weak attacks

Checks & Counters
########

- Zekrom
- Arceus-Grass
- Arceus-Electric
- Offensive Dialga if they run Thunder
- Ferro
- Palkia
- Shaymin-S
- Mewtwo/MMY
- Mega Gengar
- Gastrodon
 
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dbzmariogeno said:
- Ice Beam is the best attacking move Arceus-Water can use since it more often finds itself paired up with Groudon. Ice Beam does enough damage uninvested to stop some opposing Pokemon from trying to set up, like being able to 3HKO opposing Groudon and possibly OHKOing Rayquaza
I haven't even used Arceus Water and this seems... very wrong to me. I really just can't see Judgement not being slashed anywhere, especially when one of the things you're supposed to check, Kyogre, boosts it's power. Ho-Oh, another Mon you're supposed to check, commonly runs Substitute, meaning you're fucked if you switch in on it.

Also, run 252 HP / 144 SDef / 112 Spe Timid, lets you outspeed max base 100's and the SDef is very handy for Kyogre. Mention in set details that you could run 184 Speed, that would let you beat Gengar and Thunderus.
 
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I haven't even used Arceus Water and this seems... very wrong to me. I really just can't see Judgement not being slashed anywhere, especially when one of the things your supposed to check, Kyogre, boosts it's power. Ho-Oh, another Mon you're supposed to check, commonly runs Substitute, meaning you're fucked if you switch in on it.

Also, run 252 HP / 144 SDef / 112 Spe Timid, lets you outspeed max base 100's and the SDef is very handy for Kyogre. Mention in set details that you could run 184 Speed, that would let you beat Gengar and Thunderus.
I'll give Judgment a mention if you're not using it in Sun or slash if QC wants, but Ho-Oh/Groudon/Arceus-Water is just a really good core. I'll use those EVs and mention 184.

Edit: nvm messed up on the calcs before
 
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Fireburn

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Support set's slashes are not optimal. This is what it should be:

Support
########
name: Support
move 1: Judgment
move 2: Defog
move 3: Recover
move 4: Will-O-Wisp
ability: Multitype
item: Splash Plate
evs: 252 HP / 144 SDef / 112 Spe
nature: Timid

Ice Beam is no longer the best attacking move to run as Rayquaza is not that common and is shut down by Will-O-Wisp regardless. Judgment is required so you can damage Ho-Oh, and it is much better as the attacking move given sun is no longer permanent. You also need it to 2HKO Gengar, otherwise you're making yourself bait which is not good. Wisp is the best status option as it shuts down other physical attackers and Arceus-Water is one of the best burn spreaders given Fire-types will switch out of it.

Set Details mention Toxic and Perish Song. PSong shuts down CMOgre and last Pokemon setup sweepers which is nice, whereas Toxic is nice for crippling other Arc forms.

Make you sure include a monoCM set.
 
Support set's slashes are not optimal. This is what it should be:

Support
########
name: Support
move 1: Judgment
move 2: Defog
move 3: Recover
move 4: Will-O-Wisp
ability: Multitype
item: Splash Plate
evs: 252 HP / 144 SDef / 112 Spe
nature: Timid

Ice Beam is no longer the best attacking move to run as Rayquaza is not that common and is shut down by Will-O-Wisp regardless. Judgment is required so you can damage Ho-Oh, and it is much better as the attacking move given sun is no longer permanent. You also need it to 2HKO Gengar, otherwise you're making yourself bait which is not good. Wisp is the best status option as it shuts down other physical attackers and Arceus-Water is one of the best burn spreaders given Fire-types will switch out of it.

Set Details mention Toxic and Perish Song. PSong shuts down CMOgre and last Pokemon setup sweepers which is nice, whereas Toxic is nice for crippling other Arc forms.

Make you sure include a monoCM set.
Rayquaza was definitely not the best example I could have put, but after seeing the actual difference between Judgment in sun and Ice Beam vs Groudon, you're right. As for Will-O, even if Fire types switch out of it, Thunder Wave still seems important because this set is meant to support things like Ho-Oh that appreciate outspeeding almost anything. Removed Toxic and I'll add Will-O, but just in case I'll also leave TWave slashed for now. Will add in the rest when I get to it.
 

Fireburn

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Rayquaza was definitely not the best example I could have put, but after seeing the actual difference between Judgment in sun and Ice Beam vs Groudon, you're right. As for Will-O, even if Fire types switch out of it, Thunder Wave still seems important because this set is meant to support things like Ho-Oh that appreciate outspeeding almost anything. Removed Toxic and I'll add Will-O, but just in case I'll also leave TWave slashed for now. Will add in the rest when I get to it.
The problem with running TWave is that it makes Arceus-Water complete Zekrom food (Zek is immune to paralysis) and doesn't do anything to Ferrothorn which are its two best checks. I would put it in set details but I don't know if its worth a slash.
 
The problem with running TWave is that it makes Arceus-Water complete Zekrom food (Zek is immune to paralysis) and doesn't do anything to Ferrothorn which are its two best checks. I would put it in set details but I don't know if its worth a slash.
It would have to hit them both on the switch though, I see your point, but I think they both have enough utility to be mentioned.
 

shrang

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I've been using support Waterceus and have found that Grass Knot is relatively useful. Not only do you check Kyogre and Ho-oh, but it also lets you check Groudon, as well as any Rock Arceus on sun teams (Waterceus does "ok" against Groudon + Ho-oh + Rockceus, you're still doing poorly against Ho-oh in the sun, but you MAY be able to stall it for some time).
 
I know that this is a WIP, so don't take any criticism hard. I feel kinda awkward commenting on this analysis in its early stages but since you asked for help on the teammates section, I will post now.

Overview

Just briefly mention Water Arceus's ability to check important threats like Kyogre, Groudon, and Ho-Oh. Many teams have at least one of these Pokemon on it so checking such important threats makes Water Arceus a quality form. Talk about how its typing is better for defensive purposes than offensive, as Water has many heavy resists in Ubers (Water Arceus CAN, however, run a decent mono-attacking Calm Mind set since Water has zero immunities, though a CM mention in the overview is optional). Briefly noting its immense support capabilities (status/defog/Stealth Rock) is a good idea as well, even though the same could be said for all Arceus formes. There isn't any need to write more than 4-5 sentences in the overview.

Support set

Agreed with Fireburn on Thunder Wave. It is a really suboptimal move on this Arceus forme because many of its common switchins do not mind switching into Thunder Wave. Ferrothorn, Electric Arceus, and Zekrom are examples of this. Grass Arceus is an exception, but that does not appreciate taking a Will-O-Wisp either. Do not leave that slashed and honestly, I would put it in Other Options with a note on why it is largely outclassed by Will-O-Wisp. I like the listed EV spreads but include a simple max speed spread in Set Details to speed tie with other Arceus formes, such as Rock Arceus and Jolly Life Orb ExtremeKiller. Roar is a really solid option on this so you are not Xerneas bait; it also stops some Calm Mind Arceus formes (opposing Water Arceus for example) in their tracks while hopefully racking up Stealth Rock damage. Thunder Wave does this too but gets blocked by Substitute and Ground/Electric types so Roar is more reliable. Perish Song is worth mentioning as well and is good on Stall teams that can struggle with last mon standing sweepers that Roar cannot deal with. Finally, mention Stealth Rock in Other Options. It's a mediocre choice for your SR setter but it does get it up reliably. Mention that Stealth Rock would be used over Defog.

Mention is Usage tips that Water Arceus can be a sitting duck if used improperly. In other words, don't keep it in for too long and give your opponent free turns to pivot around it. Just use it to check stuff, use a move or two, and get the hell out. Water Arceus does not win games by itself, and its Judgment is not very threatening. In team options, mention status absorbers as quality teammates. Gliscor can check Zekrom, and Specially Defensive Heatran can Toxic Electric and Grass Arceus while simultaneously eating stray Toxic's/Will-O-Wisps.

Calm Mind

Max HP is definitely better as it allows Water Arceus to check stuff like Ho-Oh and Kyogre much better than it can with a more offensive spread. Mention a physically defensive spread in Set Options as it can easily set up on physical attackers such as Groudon while making it more difficult for Swords Dance Arceus formes to beat it 1-1 after it has accrued a boost. The loss of speed is significant though, especially in Calm Mind wars vs. opposing Arceus. The set looks good to me, I prefer Refresh over Substitute but if someone disagrees then OK.

In usage tips, discuss when it is a good idea to Calm Mind. If your opponent has a Ferrothorn, Roar Dialga, or Giratina, then setting up too early will be a waste of valuable turns, so use CM Water Arceus like you would with Support Arceus (to check threats) until they are sufficiently weakened. If possible, conserve Calm Mind so your opponent might be more willing to let its checks perish than they would be if they knew it was a Calm Mind variant. Talk about the kinds of Pokemon Water Arceus can set up on mid-to-late game, such as Aegislash.

Other Options

On support set, mention Ice Beam, Stealth Rock, Fire Blast and Thunder Wave here. Ice Beam gets chip damage on Grass Arceus and some dragons while Fire Blast ambushes Ferrothorn and Forretress while doing good damage to Grass Arceus on the switch. The Calm Mind set is straightforward but Ice Beam and Fire Blast can again be mentioned for coverage. Mention that coverage is a luxury on Water Arceus, not a necessity.

Checks & Counters

Electric Arceus, Grass Arceus, Toxic Lugia, Zekrom (beware of WoW), Dialga, Toxic Kyurem-W/Palkia, and Gastrodon all come to mind to get you started. Some check both sets while others (like Kyurem-W/Palkia lacking a phazing move) check only the support set.
 
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Fireburn

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Refresh is way better than Substitute IMO on CM since it lets you switch into status, I would mention it only in Set Details.

And yeah do all the stuff Sweep said. Include Shaymin-S and Ferrothorn as counters as well, and you can probably put Swords Dance in OO as well.
 

Fireburn

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I like using Wisp on my mono cm, harder to muscle through and it cripples things like Ferro, Zerkrom, and Aegis.
JS without Refresh you still lose to Toxic Ferro and Aegislash (with Refresh you can set up on all versions of Aegislash and Toxic/Gyro Ferrothorn). Still worth mentioning for Zekrom though.
 
Hit and run is what I mean, unless Ferro is rest or has cleric support, both of those are going to be worn down and killed off by the time you reach the late game going for your CM sweep.
 

Fireburn

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Hit and run is what I mean, unless Ferro is rest or has cleric support, both of those are going to be worn down and killed off by the time you reach the late game going for your CM sweep.
It's certainly worth a slash but I think Refresh is better in most instances. One plus to WoW is that it lets you bluff support Arc which can be kind of useful.
 
If you're focusing on outspeeding +Speed base 100 mons, 96 evs is enough on the support set. 112 lets you outspeed Thundurus and Garchomp who should be mentioned if you're going to invest the extra evs.
 

Fireburn

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Mention Shaymin-S as a check and remove Tentacruel.

Mention clerics as teammates for support to help heal off Toxics.

Mention Pursuiters like Scizor and Mega Ttar as teammates to help check Mega Gengar. Speaking of Mega Gengar it should have its own section in Checks and Counters since Destiny Bond is annoying.

analysis said:
You are complete setup bait if you do not run Roar, don't expect Judgment to do that much to the point where nothing can set up on you
Specify that only some special attackers (Xerneas) can set up on you since WoW obviously donks physical Pokemon.

I'll approve if no other QC members have comments.
 

Fireburn

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Mention for set details in Support that the SDef can also go into Def to take hits from Groudon/Ho-Oh easier.

Fairies are also good teammates since they often have clerical abilities and can check Palkia (Xerneas and Sylveon).

QC 1/3
 
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