(Archive) Small Subjective Changes Thread

Grass Knot could be slashed with Thunderbolt on the three attack life orb set.
This OHKOes Swampert, and hurts Tyranitar, Mamoswine, Hippo, Rhyperior and Suicune more. This is useful if your team has trouble with Swampert.

On the Reversal set...I'd suggest Shadow Claw over Crunch. Simply because it scores better neutral coverage. It probably 1HKOs those ghost types at about the same rate, and it's a better option against Heracross (also, the crit rate as far as I know > 10 base attack and a def lowering chance).


I suggested this a long time ago that Natural Gift was a good option on Gyarados for eliminating bulky water counters. Natural Gift Liechi Berry is listed on Rampardos's set as a viable option for grass type physical attack (or attack boosts). I think this works even better on Gyarados, since it has Dragon Dance to set up with and doesn't roll over and die in 1-2 hits. Natural Gift Grass probably is Gyarados's best option for dealing with Slobro, Starmie, Swampert, Lanturn, Suicune, Quagsire, and other water types that try to stop the sweep. Even if you don't need to use that to eliminate a counter, there is the afformentioned attack boost which is very helpful (and listed on the SubBounce set).
The ultimate instant Baton Passer setup. This thing works marvels. It's useful to have Electrode, Exploud, Mr. Mime, Octillery, or Cradily on your team, but not required. This works simply: Send out Smeargle against something slow, use Substitute. If they switched to a Pokémon that doesn't have Roar / Whirlwind, Haze or multi-hit moves, use Belly Drum, otherwise, Spore. Next turn, Baton Pass or Spore if you just Belly Drummed, Belly Drum if you just Spored. Sweep with Medicham, Aerodactyl, Cradily, Gyarados, Lucario, or whatever. Cradily, however, has the benefit of being immune to Roar and Whirlwind, making it easier to pass to. Aerodactyl and Gyarados are easier to get in and have Taunt for stuff they can't OHKO.
I scrapped the entire bit about Medicham OHKOing everything in OU, because it still can't OHKO Cresselia, even with Life Orb (and it only has a 53.85% chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock with +6, LO ThunderPunch/Ice Punch).
It should be known and fixed (I told Caelum this, but I'm just making sure) that the entries for Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Choice Specs are currently incorrect. They list the interaction of Choice Item + Trick (or Switcheroo) to be the way it behaved under the glitched ShoddyBattle (a Pokemon that uses trick and gets another Choice Item can pick a new move).

This should be fixed to be in line with the way Trick + Choice actually behaves (the way that Trick and Switcheroo say it), where a Pokemon that uses Trick and receives a Choice Item from it is locked into Trick as their next move.

The current text is:

"If a Pokémon with this item is Tricked or uses Trick, it can select a new move next turn, even if the item that was given to it is another Choice item. If, however, the Trick comes before they use a move, then the Pokémon is still locked in as though no Trick had taken place. For example, Alakazam uses Trick, but both Pokémon are holding a Choice Scarf, then Garchomp uses Swords Dance (in the same turn), Garchomp would have to use Swords Dance next turn, but Alakazam could do anything."

A correct version of this text would be:

"If a Pokémon is given this item via the move Trick or Switcheroo before it makes its move for the turn, it is locked into the move that it picked. If it is given the item via Trick or Switcheroo after it has already made its move, it is free to choose another move.
If a Pokémon uses the move Trick or Switcheroo and obtains a Choice Item from it, it is locked into Trick/Switcheroo and must pick it next turn.
For example, if Alakazam uses Trick on a Garchomp and both Pokémon are holding a Choice Scarf, then Garchomp uses Swords Dance, then both Pokémon are locked into their selected move next turn, Trick and Swords Dance respectively.
If Alakazam was originally holding a Choice Specs, and was thus slower, so Garchomp Swords Dances, then Alakazam Tricks Choice Specs for Choice Scarf, Alakazam will be stuck using Trick, while Garchomp is free to choose any move"

This seems especially pertinent as OmegaDonut just lost the finals Match of VGC because he thought trick worked the way it used to on Shoddy.

The affected articles are:

And the affected pargraph is the fourth (and final) paragraph of each article.

Reference for the correct interaction between TrickChoice:

You are free to choose to use the text from Trick/Switcheroo in place of mine, mine was just an example. For reference's sake, the relevant text from Trick is:

"If a Pokémon with a Choice Band, Choice Scarf, or Choice Specs is Tricked by / uses Trick on a Pokémon that does not have a Choice item itself, the Pokémon that has the Choice item after the Trick will be free to use whatever move it wants on the next turn only if it went first. That Pokémon will be free to select whichever move it likes regardless of whether it was originally the Pokémon with the Choice item. The Pokémon that moved second will always be locked into whatever move it used on the turn it was Tricked if it is the one holding the Choice item after the Trick. However, if both Pokémon are holding a Choice item, and either Pokémon uses Trick, then both Pokémon will be locked in to whatever move they used on the turn of the Trick(s).

For example, if Choice Scarf Jirachi is facing Choice Scarf Bronzong, and Jirachi uses Trick while Bronzong uses Stealth Rock, Jirachi will be stuck using Trick the next turn, and Bronzong will be stuck using Stealth Rock and therefore have virtually no reason to stay in, meaning Jirachi, if it decides to stay in, will have no choice but to Trick the Choice Scarf onto the incoming Pokémon (unless it has Sticky Hold or Multitype). To expound on this, if the Bronzong user switches in Swampert to the Trick, Jirachi would be free to use whatever it wants. But if it uses Trick again and Swampert stays in to do whatever, then the next turn, Jirachi will be forced to use Trick, and not something like Reflect or U-turn."


Physics and Math \O/
is a Past SPL Champion
Something I noticed on the Kangaskhan analysis http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/kangaskhan, the moves Fire Punch, Ice Punch, and ThunderPunch became legal with Scrappy from the platinum move tutors. It's just mostly in the Other Options section since none of the sets really need/use the elemental punches anyway.
Other Options said:
... Kangaskhan has a few physical options from the ADV move tutors, but all of them are incompatible with Scrappy. If you're willing to give up Scrappy, Body Slam (for some paralysis support), Fire Punch (dents Skarmory, Forretress and Bronzong), ThunderPunch (brings down Gyarados) and Ice Punch (for Dragons) are all on offer. Also illegal with Scrappy, are Sing (from XD) and Yawn (from NYPC). ...
So maybe you could just add a sentence before this part explaining the advantages of the elemental punches and combine the previous three sentences just to mention the notable illegal move combos with Scrappy. Something like:
... Fire Punch can be used to hit Skarmory, Forretress, and Bronzong; ThunderPunch can be used to hit Gyarados; and Ice Punch can be used to hit Dragons. Kangaskhan also has a few options from the ADV move tutors or special events, but all of them are incompatible with Scrappy. If you're willing to give up Scrappy: Body Slam, Sing (from XD), and Yawn (from NYPC) are all on offer. ...
Just an example as I'm not much of a talented writer :P.


On porpoise
is a Contributor Alumnus
In Moltres' descriptions it is constantly being compared to OU (and sometimes Uber) Pokemon. Now, I would not have a big problem with this if it were compared to Pokemon in its tier more often, because frankly, Moltres isn't getting enough action in any other tier to warrant all the comparisons to upper tier Pokemon.

On Tauntarel.

Consider Brine over Waterfall (and a Calm nature instead of Careful). I did some calculations, and from what I understand, it has some more raw power when its effect is activated.

At any rate, Bibarel may shockingly be the one Pokemon that has a "real" use for Brine since Super Fang will get your opponent quickly into the range where Brine becomes more powerful.

Okay, I think the Bronzong analysis is a bit screwed up. Have a look at TrickZong:

now that Bronzong has a 31 Speed stat. More importantly, however, is Bronzong's ability to cripple incoming sweepers by robbing them of their item and shredding any speed advantage they ever had over your other team members. For example, Bronzong will tend to draw in sweepers switch-ins
This is similar to the previous set, except Trick is being used instead of Hypnosis. However, while the sets are similar, they play entirely differently. Macho Brace cuts Bronzong's Speed by fifty percent, which, in turn, powers up Gyro Ball to extraordinary levels,, like Heatran or Gyarados, who anticipate a weak Gyro Ball. However, to their dismay, they will be forced to give up their held item in exchange for the rather limiting Macho Brace. Choice Band is also a decent option to cripple defensive, such as Swampert or Dusknoir, and also provides Bronzong with quite a bit of power. If you opt for Choice Band, you may want to just maximize Attack to make Bronzong a more offensive threat. The remaining portion of the set is identical to the previously discussed set.

a Ground
The item Lagging Tail forces the holder to always move last and is a viable option over Macho Brace; however, it will not boost the power of Gyro Ball like Macho Brace will. Iron Ball is an interesting option, as you can Trick it onto something that previously had-type immunity, and make them vulnerable to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Ground-type attacks, although it does come at the cost of Bronzong's own Levitate being nullified while holding it.
The paragraph begins with a random "now that Bronzong has a 31 Speed stat" sentence. The next 2 sentences also don't seem to belong here. Then, in Paragraph 2, there's that random "a ground" text.

The Trick Room set begins like this:

unless you fear Magnezone to a great extent. That way, you will be able to hopefully KO on the opponent
Finally, there are also a series of double commas:

Explosion will prove to be the most useful attacking choice in the final slot,,
Brace cuts Bronzong's Speed by fifty percent, which, in turn, powers up Gyro Ball to extraordinary levels,,


Physics and Math \O/
is a Past SPL Champion
On the Rampardos (http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/rampardos) Trick Room set there is a small error to where I think the writer of that set confused Rhyperior with Rampdardos, although I could be wrong.
Trick Room

...Earthquake and Zen Headbutt hit most of the Pokémon that resist Head Smash for super-effective damage, other than Grounds, but Rhyperior has no real way of hitting those outside of Ice Beam. ...
So yeah, basically change it to "Rampardos" or "it" if it was supposed to refer to Rampardos and your good I guess. Hope that helped ^^.
I believe Uxie can make good use of the move 'Imprison' in its Support set. That move is Uxie's only way of stopping slower leads (and Uxie is pretty fast for such a bulky Pokémon) from setting up Stealth Rock, since it doesn't learn Taunt.

As an added bonus, it renders Scizor unable to use U-Turn, and Uxie will always outspeed even max speed Adamant Scizor with minimal EV investment (20 Spd).

The Support set's moveset would then look like this:

~Stealth Rock
~Thunderbolt / Psychic / Protect / Imprison

3rd paragraph:
Thanks to the power of Hydro Pump, Empoleon doesn't need to invest in Sttack or use an Attack neutral nature to allow Aqua Jet to KO what it needs to. 252 Special Attack EVs and a Modest nature allows Empoleon to hit as hard as possible with Hydro Pump. 100 Speed EVs hits 181 Speed, which outspeeds the many pokemon in the 176-180 Speed range, which includes Metagross, Tyranitar, and Machamp. The remaining EVs are placed in HP for bulk.
Hello, long time reader, first time poster.

I'd like to suggest two minor subjective changes to the article on Venomoth (http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/venomoth). Specifically, the set called "Choice Specs". The change I'm suggesting is centered around the choice of "Sludge Bomb".

Although Sludge Bomb gets stab and may poison the target, I believe it is not an effective move for this set. Poison is only super effective against grass, which Bug Buzz already covers – if Bug Buzz is not very effective, Venomoth's ability negates this fact.

Except on pokemon in which it is doubly not very effective on. However, this is only the case on Fire/Flying, Ghost/Poison, Fire/Fighting, Fly/Poison, Fire/Steel, Fighting/Steel and Fly/Steel; but in the case of Steel and Poison, Sludge Bomb does little to aid Venomoth. Indeed in the cases of Fire/Flying or Fire/Fighting or Fire/Steel the player should switch out Venomoth or use sleep powder, no amount of Sludge Bombing will defeat these offensive pokemon.

The purpose of Venomoth is to surprise your opponent with a powerful counter, or a powerful not-very-effective attack. The author of the article even acknowledges that Sludge Bomb is not very useful. Thus, I suggest it should be changed.

Energy Ball provides Venomoth with some great coverage against rock/ground types which may try to counter Venomoth, it is also effective against water/ground or water/rock types which are abundant in NU/UU and even OU tiers. I would like to suggest it be put in Sludge Bomb's place.

Venomoth will rarely survive three hits from any pokemon and because of its unique ability, I would also like to suggest that Hyper Beam be added as a suggested move in place of Sleep Powder or Sludge Bomb. Sleep Powder is very situational as you must switch after you use it, and if it misses, Venomoth is left vulnerable. Hyper Beam is a good suggestion to put in place of either move because it allows Venomoth to do some unexpected damage before it dies. It can hit at full power on types it is usually not very effective against, also surprising opponents.

Hyper Beam and Energy Ball offer better alternatives to Sludge Bomb, which is probably better left on a bulkier pokemon.

Thanks for hearing me out, hope I've posted in the right place (I believe so, thread is a bit... empty though).


Here I stand in the light of day
is a Contributor Alumnus
It's empty because Darkie deletes the posts to keep the thread neat.

Anyway, small change I was talking about in #stark:

As with most offensive Pokemon, Stealth Rock is an absolute necessity, especially as Infernape tends to lure out Flying-types. Amongst other advantages, it allows for the Nasty Plot MixApe to OHKO even a 252 / 0 ) Gyarados, after the boost, and to 2HKO without.
You don't need that parenthesis.
Rotom-C Analysis (Standard set EV fix)


I've got a fix to the Rotom-C Standard set. Using either Modest nature or Timid nature results in wasting EVs.

Here is the current EV spread/nature:

EVs: 252 HP/168 Def/88 Spd
Modest/Timid nature

The Modest spread boosts a stat that has no EV investment and the Timid spread boosts a stat with little EV investment. Rotom-C even has higher base Defense than its base Special Attack and Speed, so Modest and Timid nature doesn't fit.

Replacing set:
EVs: 252 HP/72 Def/88 Spd/96 SAtk
Bold nature

This spread allows it to maximize EVs. I've read over the analysis, and noticed that it doesn't mention nature at all, so this set just needs a quick change.

Also, a slightly related matter, do you think it's possible to auto-direct searches for the new platinum formes? Searching them always results in going to the Google search page.

Raikou Analysis said:
Hidden Power Fighting
Timid: 22 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
I believe one of the following Shoddy-legal spreads

Timid: 30 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe

Timid: 27 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe

Timid: 22 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe

Timid: 3 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe

would be more viable for Timid HP Fighting because the analysis set that calls for HP Fighting doesn't use physical attacks (so it probably doesn't need the 31 IV in Attack), and these two spreads give Raikou 8 free Defense points over the currently suggested IV combination.

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