BH Balanced Hackmons (Even more samples @ #3)

Tea Guzzler

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Look, I'm not trying to say that Zama-C is the perfect check here, but doesn't it do a good enough job? I'm not running Zama to beat arceus or other fast 120 speed special mons like palkia, so I think +Def is absolutely justifiable. You don't outspeed koraidon either way. Also if you fear sapblock, you can also run recover. Just because counters to sap exist doesn't make sap a bad move though.

+1 252+ Atk Guts Tera Normal Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 249-294 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zama has quad rock resist and is immune to toxic so chipping it is harder than you'd think. You'd need to chip 30% which is also not a small amount. I'm sorry but I think your comparison with FC garganacl is absolutely laughable. Zama is faster than slaking, immune to toxic and rocks and has STAB Body Press to threaten slaking back. I don't know how you can consider both of them to be the same level. If the opponent havent scout the ability and click v-create, you can OHKO with +2 press.

+2 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tera Normal Slaking: 476-564 (94.4 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO


Here are some calcs to prove this mon can be threatening unlike garg:

+3 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 237-279 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 110-132 (28.3 - 34%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO

On a side note here is an imposterproof spicy flutter mane set which walls non wicked blow slaking and WBB Annihilape:

Flutter Mane @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Judgment
- Torch Song

Annihilape @ Leftovers
Ability: Well-Baked Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Cotton Guard
- Body Press
- Substitute

Anyways I think WBB zama or an offensive ghost type possess enough qualities which make them deserve some experimentation to beat guts slaking. That is all.

Another edit: I suggest running an FC steel alongside a WBB/FF Ghost so you can wall all the common slaking options. Remember the Ghost can be a setup mon and not a stupid passive wall like garganacl. FC Zama/Kingambit + FF Flutter for example.
sorry but this is just wrong, well-baked zamac is simply not a good check. for one, tera normal facade does over half, but importantly facade has 32 PP, meaning that zama is VERY prone to being recover stalled (especially given that you have to recover really early to not just fall to spikes and +1 facade) even if it doesn't have to deal with strength sap blocking. fur coat steel + well-baked ghost seems fine until you realize that you are running a fur coat steel + well-baked ghost team, which folds to practically every non-slaking physical attacker in the meta (koraidon, groudon, hoopa-u, and even more niche ones like caly-ice and rayquaza), and slaking is always paired with koraidon or hoopa-u to take advantage of said structures.

for the fc garganacl comparison, i would actually say that garg is simply the better slaking check, as it doesn't actually lose to slaking unlike zamac. it's still not good, because it loses to koraidon, can still get PP stalled out of recover, and sucks at direct damage, but it at least does the job you want it to. zamac having the benefit of body press isn't also that significant because people will usually still be carrying any of haze, imposter, or a ghost-type to basically nullify it completely (nobody good at the game is going to try and 1v1 a zama-c without knowing the ability prior, so getting a surprise +2 press just doesn't happen).

tl;dr wbb zamac is a fake check, fc zamac + wbb ghost is a bad structure (it checks slaking but no other physical attacker unless you want to use 3 phys walls and never actually win the game)
 

cityscapes

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sorry but this is just wrong, well-baked zamac is simply not a good check. for one, tera normal facade does over half, but importantly facade has 32 PP, meaning that zama is VERY prone to being recover stalled (especially given that you have to recover really early to not just fall to spikes and +1 facade) even if it doesn't have to deal with strength sap blocking. fur coat steel + well-baked ghost seems fine until you realize that you are running a fur coat steel + well-baked ghost team, which folds to practically every non-slaking physical attacker in the meta (koraidon, groudon, hoopa-u, and even more niche ones like caly-ice and rayquaza), and slaking is always paired with koraidon or hoopa-u to take advantage of said structures.

for the fc garganacl comparison, i would actually say that garg is simply the better slaking check, as it doesn't actually lose to slaking unlike zamac. it's still not good, because it loses to koraidon, can still get PP stalled out of recover, and sucks at direct damage, but it at least does the job you want it to. zamac having the benefit of body press isn't also that significant because people will usually still be carrying any of haze, imposter, or a ghost-type to basically nullify it completely (nobody good at the game is going to try and 1v1 a zama-c without knowing the ability prior, so getting a surprise +2 press just doesn't happen).

tl;dr wbb zamac is a fake check, fc zamac + wbb ghost is a bad structure (it checks slaking but no other physical attacker unless you want to use 3 phys walls and never actually win the game)
the bigger issue with slaking really is that its just really hard to get momentum against it. reminds me of sm specs mray where your steels would take 47 and youd have to vigilantly recover and let in their chomp or whatever for free. i respect sap baked zamac vs no blockers as a check (although not much else) but it does fail to address this concern. for the record, so does garganacl, that mon gets you 0 momentum ever and is the type of guy to put you in an absolutely depressing structure. it doesn't even work as a matchup fish because they just never send out slaking and you play 5v5

also no defensive mon can even touch slaking. dont get me wrong i despise sap blocking playstyles on principle, but you have legitimately no other options if you want to stop slaking from healing and keeping momentum on the opponent's side. ability removal is a meme without ph in the meta (at least core would do damage), you obviously have no status or knock, your hazard setters are giving slaking free entry to come in and tidy up, also the mon isnt 4x weak to anything. it's ridiculous. this mon (and arguably guts in general) is broken for pretty much the same reasons poison heal was.

the best way i have found to beat slaking is to legitimately just ignore it and focus on slowing down the rest of the team so it isnt always in my face. the mon itself has no good counterplay.
 

tzaur

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Probably on borrowed time right now, but I'll throw in my 2 cents. Excuse any errors/awkward syntax as I'm kind of rushing to write this.

Gonna just agree with those above me and say that while unbanning Slaking was a perfectly valid decision given the PH ban, it's still just too strong. Prankster mons not named Giratina easily get worn down by Facade very quickly; Tina gets worn down if it's a Wicked Blow variant. It does half or close to half against every other common Prankster user especially if it's Tera Normal. You just lose momentum trying to Haze away the Tidy Up/VD boosts cause you are forced to subsequently click Recover over and over to keep your head above water or else you risk losing your Prankster mon in the event you need to remove its boosts again--assuming you don't just cheese the thing with Destiny Bond. Moreover, there's obviously no neutralizing it with a Paralysis since it's burned from the Flame Orb. I've used this Prankster Giratina set from gen 8 which has Haze, Shore Up, Entrainment, and Spikes that I stole from either TTTech or Greybaum (can't remember which) which worked decently, but that set, and the mon itself, is otherwise a meme this gen.

Fur Coat users just do not cut it this gen. Facade immune FCs get shredded by Wicked Blow or Poltergeist--especially if it Teras to either of those types (which are both valid IMO; Dark has the nice bonus of stuffing out Prankster Parting Shots while Ghost has the bonus of self-proofing if the opponent removes its Flame Orb after activation). Tina-O would have been a decent pseudo-answer to it, but it desperately needs Core Enforcer to even think about doing so. Facade resists, Steel and Rock, are either deleted by V-Create or non-existent outside of shitmons like FC TTar, Garganacl, or Rockceus.
A+
:arceus::spooky plate: Arceus-Ghost - Wicked Blow. Poltergeist. If it has a Sap-blocking teammate, it's a wrap.

A
:groudon: Groudon - Gets sapped on. Straight-up loses to VD variants. Facade eventually brute forces esp. if it's Tera Normal. Cannot poison it.
:zacian: Zacian - See Groudon. Similar issue. To a much larger extent.

B+
:eternatus: Eternatus - See Groudon/Zacian.

B
:arceus::earth plate: Arceus-Ground - See Groudon
:arceus::splash plate: Arceus-Water - See Groudon.
:dondozo: Dondozo - Passive. Never respected this mon and never will. Does not exert any kind of pressure against it despite withstanding a few Facades to an extent. Still can eventually get brute forced anyway especially with hazards up anyway.

B-
:arceus::iron plate: Arceus-Steel - Fried by V-Create. Could possibly Tera Rock, as can the above FC mons, to beat VC variants, but I find relying on the "just Tera!" argument to defensively handle something pretty flimsy although it is a reason I don't really complain about it still being around.
:zamazenta-crowned: Zamazenta-C - See Steelceus.

C
:giratina: Giratina:giratina-origin: Giratina-O: See Ghostceus.

Most reliable methods of dealing with it directly are:
1. :furfrou: Fur Coat WITH Iron/Acid Press. Best possible answer to it without relying on Tera in my opinion. Used this against Slaking in the Poison Heal days although it didn't work quite as well since it was often Tera Ghost and/or Taunt. And yes, I know FC does not boost Body Press. Main objective is to boost alongside Slaking's Tidy Up/Victory Dances with Iron Defense/Acid Armor (I'm skeptical of Cotton Guard's 16 PP) to not get overwhelmed by Facade and threaten SE damage that's uninterrupted by Sap. Issue is that you're occupying two move slots just to beat one mon.
2 :zamazenta-crowned: Zamazenta-C with Well-Baked Body. The suggested method above is actually a solid answer to it; however, as mentioned, it does not solve the problem. The set is niche and doesn't really beat anything else aside from mixed D-Land Fireceus. Also, I think it still also needs Acid Armor + Body Press to boost alongside it to avoid getting overwhelmed. But at this point, if you're going that route, it may just be better to use that combination on an FC mon.
3. :choice specs: :arceus::flutter mane::enamorus::rayquaza: Faster Choice Specs -ate Boomburst. This can usually knock Slaking out from full after hazards and/or burn chip. But your positioning has to be spot-on. This obviously requires you to have the switch initiative to begin with or else it just threatens your user with a KO from Facade--or, if you opt for a defensive Tera type on your -ateburst instead of a same-type Tera for the damage amp, it forces you to burn your Tera to just to barely withstand a Facade. This pretty much applies to anything else that offensively Threatens it such as Beads of Ruin Palkia, Koraidon, etc.
4. :mr mime::choice scarf: Trick + Choice Scarf. Probably the actual best possible answer if it works. Give it Scarf and you can just beat it with most FC mons. Very big "if," though. Not reliable. If you trick the wrong target, which is easy to do, you obviously need to find a different answer to it immediately.
5. :rock gem: Tera Rock. Already discussed my thoughts on relying on Tera to consistently beat something.
6. :arceus::stone plate: Arceus-Rock. Meme mon.

Would support the tiering action on Slaking again whether it be through a suspect test or a quickban.
 

Tea Guzzler

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We have 2 tiering announcements today...

Slaking is banned from BH! Comatose + Sleep Talk ban is being replaced with a Comatose ban!
//////////////Tea GuzzlerquojovaaugustakiraChessking345TTTech
SlakingBanBanBanBanBan
ComaTalkBan ComatoseBan ComatoseBan ComatoseBan Sleep TalkBan Sleep Talk

Slaking was originally banned when Poison Heal was legal, as it was by far the best user of the ability, and so would inevitably skew the suspect if it remained legal. It was unbanned after Poison Heal was banned under the assumption that it would be fine, and for a time, it was. Population Bomb sets were incredibly potent wallbreakers but had to deal with either Speed or item dependency issues, meaning they were fairly balanced; Fur Coat sets also cropped up from time to time due to their incredible bulk, lack of notable weaknesses, and ability to spread paralysis. Over time, Koraidon's increased presence and Population Bomb sets' lacking instant threat level led to the rise of the Guts set, which is the reason why we're banning Slaking. Guts is nearly impossible to reliably wall, with the only real option being Fur Coat Rock-types like Garganacl, and it boasts immense bulk and utility for such an offensive powerhouse. Many team structures require multiple Fur Coat users just to handle it at an acceptable level, which also feeds in to one of Slaking's strengths, being that Slaking walls match poorly into the rest of the meta, with physical attackers like Koraidon, Hoopa-U, and Groudon primed to take advantage of structures like Fur Coat Ghost + Fur Coat Zamazenta-C. Tera Normal strips walling back even further, with non-Normal resists being simply inadequate and Well-Baked Body Zamazenta-C, a supposedly good check, being 2HKOed by unboosted Facade. Many recent posts in this thread go into great detail on the difficulty of checking Slaking and its unhealthy presence in the tier. It is for this immense offensive presence that Slaking is being banned.

ComaTalk clause has been in place since SM BH, as Comaphazing (Comatose + Sleep Talk + phazing move) is inherently a broken strategy. Removing the clause and banning Comatose aims to clear up the complex ban, which tiering systems want to avoid. We could've banned either Comatose or Sleep Talk, but in the end we opted for Comatose, as it's basically entirely outclassed by Purifying Salt (which is itself bad anyway). Realistically, this change will not affect the tier at all, but it's something that OM leaders wanted to clear up.

Tagging Kris to implement.
 

Tea Guzzler

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ok so now that slaking's banned people might be interested in alternatives. unfortunately, none can replicate slaking 1-to-1, as they all have to give up on multiple of bulk, tidy up, or damage.

:sv/ursaluna:
Ursaluna @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear / Tidy Up
- Facade
- Headlong Rush / Wicked Blow
- Strength Sap

ursaluna is going to be the closest in terms of core functionality - bulky physical booster with stab guts facade. ursa also has ground STAB to smash stuff like zama-c or rocks super effectively, which might make it pretty similar, but that's sort of where the good points end. ursaluna's speed is probably the main drawback, forcing you to run jolly + shift gear to actually outrun everything, which forfeits tidy up and sees a noticeable drop in attack; alternatively, you can run adamant + tidy up to keep tidy up, but this means you won't be outspeeding the fast stuff until +3. rocks and zamac are likely also falling off heavily with slaking gone so having a STAB to eliminate rocks specifically (slaking v-create is the same BP as ursa stab headlong) isn't actually that valuable.

:sv/meloetta-pirouette:
Meloetta-Pirouette @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Facade
- Collision Course / Wicked Blow
- Strength Sap

meloetta's damage just isn't high enough with tidy up to warrant its use, especially given its relatively poor bulk (compared to the other normals) gimps its defensive utility even more. this is a similar situation to ursaluna with a STAB eliminating things that aren't really relevant. its the hardest hitting of the remaining normals though, and you can beat arc-ghost if you predict sd on sap correctly / get to +4 (you live unboosted focus blast).

:sv/arceus:
Arceus @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance / Tidy Up
- Facade
- V-create / Wicked Blow
- Strength Sap

boasts slightly less bulk physical bulk than slaking, much lower attack, and occupying the arceus slot in exchange for much higher speed and special bulk. arc's speed gives it the option for both sd and tidy up, but the attack is almost 100 lower than slaking, meaning it really needs to be sd to be doing any damage, which even then is only about 8% stronger than +1 slaking (744 atk on +2 arc vs 690 on +1 king before guts). the main drawback will be the opportunity cost as you're using the arceus slot on a comparatively mid semi-fast wallbreaker, which you have multiple other options for.

dedicated tera stuff is also bad, don't bother trying with it. STAB tera just straight up does more damage with any STAB stronger than 105BP, you're forced to use tera, and you become normal which isn't always worth it.

tl;dr none of the normal-types replicate slaking that well. they have to give up multiple of bulk, attack, and tidy up (and its speed boost). if you want an offensive utility guts mon then normals aren't really that good.
 

Tea Guzzler

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been meaning to make this for a bit but i noticed while there's sufficient discussion on why some stuff gets used, there isn't a lot on why some stuff doesn't get used. this post will go over most stuff that is seemingly good but for one reason or another it doesn't get used.

Why isn't "x" used?

Q: Adaptability
A: Adaptability has historically been the go-to damage ability for mixed attackers like Palkia and Blacephalon. However, 2 main reasons limit it in gen 9: lack of good users, and Terastallization. Adapt is only useful on mixed attackers due to Sword and Beads directly outclassing it for mono-physical and mono-special attackers, respectively, and most mixed attackers in the meta (like Enamorus, Rayquaza, and Hoopa-U) want other abilities significantly more than Adapt. Secondly, Adapt is just outright bad with Tera, which is a big downside when a lot of breakers lean on it for extra killpower: you lose the Adapt boost on types you lose by Terastallizing, and Adapt's boost also shrinks with STAB Tera (with the total boost going to 2.25x rather than the expected 2.5x).

Q: Normalize
A: Normalize + Entrainment makes you immune to direct damage from the opponent if you can outrun them. This was niche but usable in gen 8, when counterplay was common but there wasn't a lot of variety (Magic Bounce and Glare), meaning you can prep for it. In gen 9, there are just too many relevant counters for it to be viable: Judgment, Revelation Dance, Toxic, Glare, Parting Shot, Magic Bounce, Ability Shield, and the lack of good trapping options all hold it back.

Q: Regieleki
A: Regieleki seems decent with its unmatched Speed and Electric STAB, giving it the coveted Hadron + Rising Voltage. However, Regieleki has nothing but Speed; it has literally 0 defensive utility, being a liability to get in safely and folding to almost any common attack, and its offensive profile is mediocre at best. Likely its best set, Mixed Life Orb, finds it almost impossible to deal significant damage even when hitting targets like Ting-Lu super effectively, and it even struggles to get past non-Electric resists like Ice Scales Arceus due to its meager offensive stats. Eleki sets used solely for their Speed, like Hazard leads, are and always will be bad. If you want a fast special breaker that also happens to be a defensive liability, Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle are right there.

Q: Choice Scarf Imposter

A: This is a relic from gen 7 BH that has barely been viable since, if at all. The short answer is that the damage threats typically aren't nuclear enough to where the inflexibility of Choice Scarf is justified, as almost every offensive mon in this meta has an iron-clad Imposter-proof, and none want to risk Speed-ties in the first place (meaning outspeeding them is meaningless). Using Choice Scarf Imposter also generally means you aren't using Eviolite Imposter, which is significantly more useful. Choice Scarf is also hideously inflexible, especially when Transformed into a defensive Pokemon.

Q: Choice Scarf (just in general)
A: BH's longer games and full EVs mean Choice Scarf's inflexibility (and opportunity cost of not having another item) are put on full display. The jump on the opponent is almost never sufficient to get a kill, as you aren't running something like Choice Specs or Choice Band, and running Scarf solely to Trick it is risky given you're sacking both an item and a moveslot to potentially cripple a threat (emphasis on potentially; a lot of stuff, which you're unlikely to threaten due to not having a damage-amp item, runs untrickable items).

Q: Prankster + Strength Sap
A: Seems good to give the advantage against physical demons like Koraidon, as bulky Prankster users like Dondozo can potentially PP stall with Strength Sap. It isn't used because it gets blocked by Dark-types, meaning at best you run this in addition to Recover, which means you have to give up the utility of something else like Parting Shot or Glare. Having mono-Sap for healing is asking to get tossed about by Hoopa-U and Ting-Lu, and even low-Attack Pokemon like Chansey and Flutter Mane can sufficiently limit your healing.

Q: Almost all non-legendaries
A: When you have almost every Pokemon in the game to choose from, especially BST behemoths like Arceus and the 680s, there's almost no reason to ever use something lower; with the exception of Chansey (which doesn't really count), 660 BST or above is where the majority of viable Pokemon lie, with anything below that needing specific stat spreads (Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, Dondozo, Ting-Lu) or typings (Enamorus, Meloetta) to be usable. Raw stats really come into their own when the gap between regular mons and legendaries is so wide. Crying "legendary spammer" also won't really solve the problem, because to be able to win against decent players, you need to be using decent mons in 99.9% of cases.

Q: Moxie-type abilities (As One, Beast Boost, Soul-Heart, etc.)
A: Getting a kill is unsurprisingly a hard thing to do in such a bulky meta. If you're running an ability that doesn't help until you get a kill, that suddenly becomes a lot harder. When you add on the fact that the boost isn't even that much bigger than a regular damage-amp ability (and is in some cases lower), is removeable by Haze, and that it just isn't strong enough to help you snowball efficiently, there's realistically no reason to use these.

Q: Gigaton Hammer
A: 160 BP looks strong, but that's about all this move has going for it. Steel is generally a poor offensive type, only really hitting Fairy-types like Zacian, and nothing relevant (besides Zacian @ Rusted Sword, who'll get higher average damage with Magical Torque anyway) has STAB on it. Dedicated Tera Steel doesn't fix these issues either, as you'd get more mileage out of STAB Tera or Tera Fire + V-create. The 8 PP and cooldown turn also don't help. About the only relevant application is Choice Band Koraidon, which exclusively uses it to nuke Zacian or Arceus-Fairy - it's never being clicked otherwise.

Q: Defense-boosting moves (Cosmic Power & Cotton Guard)
A: Becoming unkillable in BH is, at least in the current meta, pretty pointless if you can't kill the opponent back. These moves suffer from that, as spamming Cosmic Power doesn't actually make you win; it just makes you not lose. Boosters using these are also easily exploitable with things like status moves like Toxic, Haze (which just undoes the past 4 turns you spent on boosting), and crit moves like Hoopa-U's Wicked Blow. Simple sets trying to use these to strengthen Stored Power also don't work, as you're foddering moveslots (likely forcing you to run mono-Stored Power) leaving you almost helpless against Prankster and Imposter users, and you can also just boost faster with Nasty Plot (nobody's trying to contest a Simple sweeper with an offensive mon anyway, so the defensive boosts are usually meaningless).


might have missed some but these were the main ones i thought of
 

tzaur

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is a Tiering Contributor
Terrastalize is getting kind of ridiculous. It was borderline broken for a while, but with so many strong abilities and pokemon running around in the metagame it was hard to get an accurate read of it. However, now I believe that there is enough evidence to argue the stance that it is conclusively broken.

I suppose first, we must highlight what has changed. Recently Miraidon and Orichalcum Pulse were banned from the metagame. They were banned for requiring very specific counterplay, along with being insanely strong. For example, Tera Fire, Orichalcum Pulse Calyrex-Ice had a roll to OHKO FC Arceus:

252+ Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Calyrex-Ice V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus in Sun: 405-477 (91.2 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Tera dragon Miraidon was able to OHKO Assault Vest Dialga-O:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Tera Dragon Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin: 426-504 (105.4 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tera asside, Miraidon was banned for having a REDICULOUSLY strong choice specs Rising Voltage w/ Hadron Engine:

252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Tera Dragon Miraidon Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Arceus in Electric Terrain: 212-250 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

Now, lets look at the interplay between Terastalize and Eternatus, and these sets:

Eternatus @ Choice Specs
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Energy
- Sludge Bomb / Focus Blast / Steam Eruption / Grass Knot
- Volt Switch / Trick

Eternatus @ Life Orb
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Draco Meteor
- Nasty Plot
- Strength Sap

252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Tera Electric Eternatus Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Arceus in Electric Terrain: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Tera Electric Eternatus Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin: 337-398 (83.4 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Tera Electric Eternatus Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin: 370-437 (91.5 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

With Terastalize, choice specs Etern is stronger than (admitedly so) non-tera Miraidon. If this is a Hadron Engine Nasty Plot Etern, its Draco Meteor and Rising Voltage would be a similar strength to Miraidon. If Hadron Engine Miraidon is broken, would this set also be broken? Is Etern broken, is Hadron Engine broken, or is Terastalize broken?

Continuing along the special side, I'd like to take a trip down memory lane. Do we all remember Choice Specs Aerilate Mega-Rayquaza. That pokemon was STRONG.

252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 141-167 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This pokemon had insane damage output on a +spdef Registeel, with a resisted boombust. In gen9bh this would be even more ridiculous because recovery would only be 8 pp, so Rayquaza would be able to just stand there and spam boomburst until Registeel ran out of pp.

NOW, imagine this. It's 2018 and the 1100 elo ladder hero named Delilord who you farm every time you start a new alt insists that Deliberd is going to one day become stronger than Mega-Rayquaza. You'd think that they've gone insane. Look who's talking now though:

252 SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Tera Ice Iron Bundle Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 143-169 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It's gen9bh now, and DELIBIRD is stronger than Mega-Rayquaza. Terastalize creates rediculous calcs like this on numerous choiced attackers. Case study #2, Flutter Mane:

252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 153-180 (42 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Arceus: 197-232 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

Unless you have a resisted Ice Scales or Assault Vest pokemon, every pokemon on your team has a chance of getting ohkoed or 2hko'd by Flutter Mane (guaranteed with any amount of chip).

This concludes my thoughts on the special side. The physical side, I would say is a bit more "manageable", with mainly just Slaking and Koraidon being the big threats. The calcs are still rediculous though. With one layer of spikes, Koraidon has a near-garunteed chance to 2hko FC Arceus.

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dragon Koraidon Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus: 188-222 (42.3 - 50%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Slaking can be insane as well:

+1 252+ Atk Guts Tera Normal Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus: 306-362 (68.9 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With a bit of chip, FC Arceus can't switch in on this mon too easily as well, however I would argue that defensively terastalizing on guts Slaking is more beneficial.

Offensive Pokemon Defensively Terastalizing:

Now, lets take a look at some other ways offensive pokemon can terastalize, such as Tera Steel specs Rayquaza. You can create scenarios where after getting a KO, the opp can bring a Koraidon in, where you then tera steel on a "safe" Glaive Rush, tank it and ohko it back. That's something the opponent has to always be aware of. Additionally, guts slacking can do a random Ghost (imo best tera type), where it can totally dodge a random Focus Blast from FC Ghostcius, and then kill it the next turn. This type of tera can create many 50 / 50s that often go unnoticed I feel like, especially in more tour plays.

Other Tera cases:

For imposter proofing strategies such as the Mortal Spin + Calm Mind Arceus sets which can tera into Steel / Poison to be poison immune and 1v1 imposter, granted imposter can also be tera steel / poison in anticipation of such sets. Defensive pokemon can also tera to get a better type match up, but as seen above, unless they have ice scales, fur coat, or assualt vest, the type advantage will be insignificant.

While there was a suspect for terastalize a while ago, I believe that the meta is 1. different enough for there to be reasonable cause to revisit it, and 2. further evidence that has been made clearer after recent bans. The fact that previously banned pokemon / abilities can be recreated in power level to me, is evidence enough on its own that terastalize is broken.

HOWEVER, I will say that tera is fun af. It's awesome being able to just live a random hit and win, or terastalizing an already broken pokemon into 2hkoing the entire opposing team. Is it competitive, nope, but it always puts a smile on my face when I'm not on the losing side :P
I'm quite late to fully board the anti-Tera train, but I'm agreeing with this. Tera is definitely a problem. Anyone reading can look at the Sev's post above or Chessking345's posts earlier in this thread on why it's indeed a silly mechanic, but in short, I think my biggest issue with this mechanic is how it allows offensive Pokemon to convert 2HKOs to OHKOs or damn-near OHKOs, 3HKOs to 2HKOs, even 4HKOs to 3HKOs, so on and so forth which can allow them to either KO something that otherwise would have survived and KO'd back or brute force through something that would otherwise check it comfortably. Don't feel like pulling out a comprehensive list of calcs, but I'll say that I've lost count of the number of times I've seen/experienced this recently. More secondarily, I also dislike how offensive mons can use it as both a defensive tool to avoid getting KO'd by something/negate certain forms of counterplay and an offensive tool to 2HKO/OHKO something that it otherwise wouldn't. While I am still a tad skeptical of the Dynamax comparison people made some time ago, I do kind of at least see the point the more I think about it since it also had a similar problem of adding a layer of guesswork, allowing mons to survive shit they shouldn't, and allowing them to KO shit they shouldn't within those three turns.

Even though I voted do not ban on it when it was suspect tested, I never necessarily disagreed with most of the points Chess brought up before the suspect test and always secretly believed he was on to something. That being said, even though I'm voting ban should the suspect be re-visited, I still stand by my initial abstention and still believed it was too soon to suspect Tera. It could have been just how I personally used Tera, but I often used it defensively rather offensively; I found that I rarely needed to use it offensively to win, and it did often give me alternative outs vs. a lot of the broken mons previously in the tier without having to stack specific dedicated checks against mons like QD Beads of Ruin Palkia-O, Miraidon, Zacian-C, etc. at the same time before I even get to the actual teambuilding. I found it difficult to justify getting rid of it so soon for that reason.
 
made a decent team in bh. u just got to believe in ur favorites and urself

Team Name: my first bh team

Synopsis: Ban Breloom Specs Pal balance

Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/b32cfd4e4a0eae4c

How to use: band breloom + specs palkia r the teams breakers. get them in as much as possible and click buttons. scream tail and muk protect u from special threats. swallot beat physical attackers and makes ur opponent kiss hazards goodbye. imp regi-drago is better then chasey. spooky plate beats up arceus ghost an other plate baddies. start game slow an start with regi. find targets to pivot bre an palk in and clcik buttons with breakers. watch opponent cry when no switch in.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1874508029
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1873097351
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1873703763

Weaknesses:
None : )

Effectiveness:
myfirstbhteam.png
 

Tea Guzzler

it's all gone pear shaped
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So I was looking through old OM threads and noticed that a few have (scattered) banlist reasonings. While this thread has a few "why isn't x banned", it doesn't have "why is x banned", which opens up frequent questions (especially in OM room on PS) like Comatose or Parental Bond. Will probably also get this edited in to the FAQ at some point.

Gen 9 BH Banlist Reasonings
:calyrex-shadow: 165 Special Attack and 150 Speed wasn't enough, so Game Freak also decided to give this thing Ghost STAB. What this means is that, not only is it the fastest Pokemon in basically every meta it could be in, but it also deals absurd amounts of damage. Checks to Calyrex-S are limited largely to very specific walls like Ting-Lu, Meloetta, or Arceus-Normal, all of which can be teched past. This also isn't to mention its Normalize sets, forcing all of these to run Ability Shield (or in Ting-Lu's case, Revelation Dance), or the fact that it also has STAB Lumina Crash. There simply aren't consistent answers that can't be teched past or swamped by other things in the meta.

:miraidon: Hadron Engine is a rare case for an ability being tailor-made for its user (with the obvious exception of forme-changing abilities), as Miraidon gets access to STAB, Hadron Engine, Terrain-boosted Rising Voltage. This in conjunction with STAB Dragon Energy and Volt Switch makes it almost impossible to safely wall, especially considering Terastallization and hazards (the only truly consistent wall is Ice Scales Chansey, which is still Volt Switch fodder and also somehow can be 3HKOed.

:slaking: Unbanned after Poison Heal was gone, Slaking took a while to settle what with Immunity Zacian-C being on most teams and Arceus-Ghost being in its prime with free Quiver Dance. After these went, Guts Slaking showed up to be basically unwallable with Tera Normal. Facade invalidated any non-resistant wall through sheer damage alone (with unboosted Tera Normal Facade 2HKOing Fur Coat Groudon), and would-be checks in Ghost- and Steel-types had to hope they ran into a Slaking with the wrong coverage (both V-create and Wicked Blow were relevant). Dedicated Slaking checks like Annihilape and Garganacl did pop up, and also worked, but were almost completely useless into every other physical attacker; for this reason, Slaking would always be paired with Koraidon, Groudon, or the like. Add on that it also had stunning defensive utility with Tidy Up, a Toxic immunity, and massive bulk, and there was basically no reason to ever drop it.

:zacian-crowned: Zacian-C is currently restricted; it can still be accessed with Zacian + Rusted Sword, but Zacian-C by itself (with any ability and item) is banned. No one Zacian-C set, aside from maybe Gorilla Tactics, was broken; thinks like Substitute + Victory Dance, Ruination + Taunt, Mold Breaker + Swords Dance, and the like all had their counters. The issue was that overlapping checks for these was almost impossible - you could never feasibly beat Zacian-C in one slot, you'd just beat, say, Well-Baked Body Zacian-C in the one slot. Add on the difficulties of playing into immunity ability fishing, the impossibly annoying Magical Torque, and the fact that it outsped everything, and you have an incredibly centralizing force.
:snorlax: Belly Drum took a hit this generation with the loss of many good users, like Kartana and Necrozma-DM, in addition to the "moldy moves" (moves with a Mold Breaker effect; Sunsteel Strike, Moongeist Beam, and Photon Geyser) also still gone. However, free Drum is ultimately just adding another matchup fish to the tier, with its presence alone basically mandating a Prankster user (made worse by the lack of Topsy-Turvy and Spectral Thief). Many types also have new strong attackers and moves, meaning that the amount of things you can get fished by has also increased.

:samurott-hisui: Ceaseless Edge's presence essentially centralizes many games solely around Spikes-stacking, made worse by the fact that the Spikes cannot be prevented, RegenVest users can set them, and they also beat most hazard removal options long-term (Tidy Up has less PP, Mortal Spin is relatively easy to block, and -ate + Rapid Spin users are significantly less viable than previous generations). Lowered PP on recovery moves also indirectly buffs hazards by making them rack up chip damage faster. The end result is that, with Ceaseless in the tier, there's almost no reason to go for a strategy other than Spikes stacking. Stone Axe isn't banned as it can't stack hazards and most Pokemon in BH resist Rock.

:houndstone: Should be pretty obvious. Access to all of multiple users, setup moves, varying abilities, and Tera Ghost all make this completely broken and removes any competitiveness from the game, especially given there is currently only one reasonably-high-ranked Ghost resist (Ting-Lu) that's actually stalling out a physical attacker.

:volcarona: Quiver Dance has historically been fine due to the ways of preventing users from spiralling. In SV BH, however, almost all of those are gone, with Spectral Thief, Topsy-Turvy, and Core Enforcer unusable; Haze is the only really consistent answer, which doesn't actually make any progress against the Quiver Dance user. Add on the myriad of special attackers that can make use of it, meaning that your Haze user being matchup fished is reasonably likely, and that Judgment is back to eliminate a would-be counterplay option in Imposter.

:annihilape: Should be pretty obvious. Annihilape's only real greivance in standard tiers is its lack of instant recovery, meaning to brute-force Rage Fist stacks it has to sustain itself with Drain Punch and Rest. These don't exist in BH, as everything has access to recovery and also has full EVs, meaning getting Rage Fist stacks is laughably easy. Also, anything (including multiple things on the same team) can freely spam it.

:pawmot: BH gives a few ways to attain multiple Revival Blessing uses, whether through Leppa Berry + Recycle/Harvest or Imposter users. This needlessly extends the game and can reverse significant amounts of turns' progress in just one, which you can probably tell doesn't lead to a competitive meta and puts far too much emphasis on broken offensive Pokemon to both revive and deny the opponent revive windows with.

:cyclizar: Offensive threats are far too good in BH to facilitate giving them completely unreactable Substitutes, especially given you don't know in advance what's passing the Substitute. Full EVs also means the Substitutes are hard to break, both from the HP stat of the user and the defensive investment of the receiver. Substitute also blocks Imposter, which is the tried and true method for scaring out most setup sweepers that don't tech specifically for it.

:cloyster: Shell Smash forces Prankster users on every team and create mindless gameplay loops where defensive options are horribly inconsistent and the safest way to not lose to Shell Smash users is to just do it yourself and win faster. It's basically Belly Drum but more unhealthy and more matchup-fishy, as the Special Attack boost simply means more can run Shell Smash. No Spectral Thief and Topsy-Turvy also prevent this from being freed entirely.
:dugtrio: Should be pretty obvious. Auto-trapping is already uncompetitive in standard tiers when you know what's trapping you. Having key defensive options being punished simply for existing without Shed Shell is already unhealthy, and similar to Shed Tail, you don't know in advance what's trapping you.

:komala: Comatose is a key cornerstone in the strategy known as ComaPhazing. As the name would suggest, it involves Comatose and phazing moves like Whirlwind. Essentially, the Pokemon will only have Comatose, Sleep Talk, and phazing moves, meaning that Sleep Talk will always call phazing moves with 0 priority. This enables anything to cause potentially infinite shuffling, which is inherently uncompetitive, especially given there are only 2 consistent counterplay options in Magic Bounce and Good as Gold (that become mandatory on every team). This can be also combined with hazards for infinite, damage-dealing shuffling.

:serperior: Every Pokemon has access to every Contrary-afflicted move, including options like V-create, Fleur Cannon, Overheat, Draco Meteor, and Dragon Ascent. These threats became unreasonably centralizing, especially given their mixed attacking nature and Unaware's lack of general viability.

:darmanitan-galar: Gorilla Tactics remained free for a surprising while, only being banned shortly after Zacian-C went. The free Choice Band was deemed to be too big a boost with Tera in mind, with many physical walls being 2HKOed by Tera attacks (often without any entry hazards) and Imposter-proofing users being relatively safe. Sword of Ruin is similar but also noticeably more manageable, with a smaller boost and weaker damage into Imposter (as the Ruin abilities don't affect opponents with the same ability).

:azumarill: Incredibly obvious. Anything with Huge Power and even a moderate amount of Attack just isn't wallable, and it would also create almost complete centralization in playstyles.

:zoroark: There are many nuclear threats in BH that demand an instant response. Having to not only play around these, but also guess if they're even real, adds an unreasonable amount of mind-games and uncertainty that can cost you the game if you guess wrong. In addition, disguised Pokemon also block Imposter, essentially removing the easiest catch-all for offensive threats.

:pyukumuku: Innards Out, on Pokemon with massive HP pools and paltry defenses (namely Chansey and Blissey), every turn becomes a gamble on whether to actually attack or not; if you guess wrong, you probable die on the spot. It should be pretty obvious that punishing simply attacking with the risk of being KOed instantly isn't a feature a competitive metagame wants. Even if you avoid being KOed, you've spent a turn not attacking (probably switching), meaning no player's actually done anything and thus gameplay just isn't happening.

:magnezone: Should be pretty obvious. Auto-trapping is already uncompetitive, even considering Magnet Pull's drawback of only trapping Steel-types, creating the same mind-game of whether to run Shed Shell or get matchup fished. You also don't know what's trapping you beforehand.

:glalie: Moody removes skill from the game and creates mindless Substitute/Protect sequences, only ending if the Moody user gets enough useful boosts to break through the opposing defensive core, or does nothing long enough for the opponent to safely KO them back. This is made worse by how bulky everything in BH is, meaning sticking around waiting for boosts is really easy.

:weezing-galar: Neutralizing Gas turns off almost every viable ability, including anti-offense options like Prankster, Imposter, Fur Coat, Ice Scales, and Regenerator. This massively breaks offensive Pokemon and turns every game into "do you have something that beats the offensive threat by typing and stats alone". Forcing Ability Shield on almost every Pokemon to negate its effects is also unreasonable.

:koraidon: Orichalcum Pulse was free for quite a while. The eventual ban was due almost entirely due to V-create; more specifically, Tera Fire V-create, which dwarfed every other wallbreaking option and led to some insane feats like Choice Band Calyrex-I being able to OHKO Fur Coat Arceus without any prior chip. Fire-resistant Fur Coat users were also often insufficient, as they tend to have issues with the rest of the metagame and would also still tend to lose to the Choice Band user's coverage options (bolstered by Orichalcum Pulse's Attack boost).

:kangaskhan-mega: Parental Bond's damage from hitting twice isn't actually the issue with the ability, as other legal abilities offer higher boost (such as Sword / Beads of Ruin's 33%). The problem comes with fixed-damage moves like Night Shade/Seismic Toss and Super Fang/Ruination, which have their fixed damage effects twice, essentially creating an attacker that always leaves you with <= 25% HP and can also deal a guaranteed 200 HP to finish you off.

:gliscor: Poison Heal was banned via suspect test. Essentially, a massive pool of potential users, lack of good boost-removing options, no Core Enforcer, and limited recovery PP all culminate into a situation where Poison Heal users are almost impossible to stop long-term, and can potentially win at preview simply because they chose a wall you inherently beat.

:medicham: See Huge Power.

:wobbuffet: See Arena Trap.

:gumshoos: BH is a fairly unique meta in that it's almost never the best option to simply brawl with the opponent; you're almost always going to be switching against an offensive Pokemon. Stakeout's double damage takes massive advantage of this to crush defensive switchins, especially with Tera + Choice Item. The fact that it doesn't reveal itself is also unhealthy due to adding another ability mindgame where death is the punishment for guessing wrong.

:araquanid: Doubled Water damage breaks Water-type threats like Palafin and Palkia, which is especialy noticeable given Orichalcum Pulse's ban and Desolate Land's low viability. An immunity to burn also means Palafin can't be slowed down or forced out by supposed checks like Scald Dondozo and Arceus-Water.

:shedinja: Incredibly obvious. Creates complete centralization and removes any balance from the tier, especially given that Ability Shield turns off the would-be counterplay in Mold Breaker.
 
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It's disheartening to that one ability, 'Imposter', can so fundamentally disturb the metagame.

In a recent match, I was confronted with a full team of Imposter users. What should have been a decisive victory quickly turned into a battle of attrition, because my carefully chosen squad was being mirrored move for move.

My opponent hadn't even bothered to pick many high-HP monsters or use eviolites apart from the standard imposter chansey, instead mindlessly relying on imposter to cheese their way through battles with no creativity whatsoever. I won, but it wasn't a satisfying victory. It felt more like I was the victim of some kind of cruel joke.

The only reason I didn't lose was the incompetence of the opponent. I'm against innovation or surprise tactics, far from it. But when the entire metagame starts revolving around countering a single ability, something is terribly amiss. Especially when the ability in question is quite literally the least innovative thing imaginable.

The term "Imposter-proofing" has been introduced to cater to this peculiar scenario, but I argue that this shouldn't be the case. It seems ludicrous that I have to predict not only other existing threats but also anticipate how my own team members might be used against me. It constrains team building and stifles creativity, reducing the game to a question of "how can I best protect against my own moves?"

It's disheartening that less centralizing abilities like Poison Heal have been banned, yet Imposter, which dictates almost every aspect of team building, is deemed acceptable. If such a pervasive ability were present in any other metagame, it would be banned without a second thought. Yet here, we are forced to adapt to it and accept it as part of the norm.

Dealing with it is already difficult enough, let alone stopping it. All feasible counter-methods have been banned. The only threats capable of checking it, such as spooky plate gengar have been banished to the shadow realm with the new ban on Quiver Dance. As far as prevention, substitute blocks it.. Provided your opponent doesn't just switch in on that turn because they admit they have no better answer. Illusion, which is significantly worse than Imposter as it trades your whole ability slot for a simple disguise, is banned. You could justify keeping ANYTHING in this metagame. "Just run fake out on every monster. Hey man, just illusion-proof your team. Don't use skills they're weak to if they have a monster that is immune to it on their team." Even that is a much more reasonable position than this whole arbitrary allegiance to "imposter-proofing."

It's important for the metagame to be dynamic and diverse. We should encourage a wide array of strategies and tactics, not force trainers into a narrow framework in order to cope with one omnipresent ability. It seems to me that the creators are always searching for some small misdemeanor, some "accomplice" to the complete destruction of this circus of a metagame, when the actual robbers are standing right in front of them. If this were Pure Hackmons, I would understand, but this is BALANCED HACKMONS. I would either ban imposter, or unban everything that is less influential than imposter (nearly everything that is currently banned).
 

Tea Guzzler

it's all gone pear shaped
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
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It's disheartening to that one ability, 'Imposter', can so fundamentally disturb the metagame.

In a recent match, I was confronted with a full team of Imposter users. What should have been a decisive victory quickly turned into a battle of attrition, because my carefully chosen squad was being mirrored move for move.

My opponent hadn't even bothered to pick many high-HP monsters or use eviolites apart from the standard imposter chansey, instead mindlessly relying on imposter to cheese their way through battles with no creativity whatsoever. I won, but it wasn't a satisfying victory. It felt more like I was the victim of some kind of cruel joke.

The only reason I didn't lose was the incompetence of the opponent. I'm against innovation or surprise tactics, far from it. But when the entire metagame starts revolving around countering a single ability, something is terribly amiss. Especially when the ability in question is quite literally the least innovative thing imaginable.

The term "Imposter-proofing" has been introduced to cater to this peculiar scenario, but I argue that this shouldn't be the case. It seems ludicrous that I have to predict not only other existing threats but also anticipate how my own team members might be used against me. It constrains team building and stifles creativity, reducing the game to a question of "how can I best protect against my own moves?"

It's disheartening that less centralizing abilities like Poison Heal have been banned, yet Imposter, which dictates almost every aspect of team building, is deemed acceptable. If such a pervasive ability were present in any other metagame, it would be banned without a second thought. Yet here, we are forced to adapt to it and accept it as part of the norm.

Dealing with it is already difficult enough, let alone stopping it. All feasible counter-methods have been banned. The only threats capable of checking it, such as spooky plate gengar have been banished to the shadow realm with the new ban on Quiver Dance. As far as prevention, substitute blocks it.. Provided your opponent doesn't just switch in on that turn because they admit they have no better answer. Illusion, which is significantly worse than Imposter as it trades your whole ability slot for a simple disguise, is banned. You could justify keeping ANYTHING in this metagame. "Just run fake out on every monster. Hey man, just illusion-proof your team. Don't use skills they're weak to if they have a monster that is immune to it on their team." Even that is a much more reasonable position than this whole arbitrary allegiance to "imposter-proofing."

It's important for the metagame to be dynamic and diverse. We should encourage a wide array of strategies and tactics, not force trainers into a narrow framework in order to cope with one omnipresent ability. It seems to me that the creators are always searching for some small misdemeanor, some "accomplice" to the complete destruction of this circus of a metagame, when the actual robbers are standing right in front of them. If this were Pure Hackmons, I would understand, but this is BALANCED HACKMONS. I would either ban imposter, or unban everything that is less influential than imposter (nearly everything that is currently banned).
So let's just get one thing straight out of the gate, Imposter is never being banned, it simply is not broken.

For starters, you clearly didn't have a "carefully chosen squad" if one of the most common things in the meta is almost making you lose simply by existing. There's no way of sugarcoating this, your team is not prepped for the meta. Making a full team of stacked offensive threats that completely fold to Imposter isn't a carefully chosen squad, no matter how demonic the threats are. Full Imposter teams are also just a complete joke, and literally any half-decent team will steamroll these with laughably few hopes of respite.

Another thing you're wrong about is the centralization; the entire meta does not revolve around it. If it did, every set would be used based on its interactions with Imposter, which is simply not true. The most relevant set that is built with Imposter heavily in mind is Fur Coat Arceus-Ghost, and even then, going out of your way to beat Imposter barely changes the set (the only change this'd have, if any, is Infernal Parade instead of Judgment); no other mon in the metagame builds with Imposter in mind to this degree or more. Having to prepare for your own mons isn't ludicrous, and isn't even that constraining given the wide array of options available.

Saying that "all feasible counter-methods have been banned" is just objectively wrong and shows how surface-level your argument is, especially given Mega Gengar isn't even in Gen 9, so QD ban hasn't done anything to it (if you mean regular Gengar, you're using completely trash mons, go get more experience before presenting this argument). Illusion's "simple disguise" is overbearing when you can instantly lose a mon for failing to guess whether the disguise is correct or not, on top of blocking Imposter, thereby removing the best catch-all for monstrous setup sweepers. If you're looking for viable counterplay methods, then there's a great deal; status, hazard pressure, denying recovery, trapping, Plate + Judgment, and even just hitting it really hard (especially given Tera wallbreakers' absurd damage output) are all strong counterplay options. Imposter is, and has never been, a godmode option that'll make you win every game; you have complete agency over what the Imposter user is capable of doing to your team, and half-decent teams are going to build such that they minimize this capability while also having strong options into everything else in the meta (which really isn't that hard).

Let me also ask you one question. You've presented in your argument that we, as a council, look for some "accomplice" to the complete destruction of the meta. This, if I understand correctly, means that you think we purposefully ignore Imposter and just look for other stuff to ban. What incentive do we have to do that? Why would we willingly make the tier we enjoy playing... unplayable? This makes 0 sense.

Also, keeping Imposter is crucial for 2 reasons - keeping offensive demons in check, and keeping defensive do-nothings in check. The former is accomplished by Imposter's giant bulk preventing the opponent from spamming the same mindless setup sweepers and brute-forcing through any defensive option, forcing both players to, y'know, play the game - no Imposter removes by far the best check to these, and as a result of BH being inherently biased to offensive options, creates a terrible meta where the only consistent way to not get swept is to yourself sweep, but faster. The latter prevents incredibly bulky teams from just sitting there and doing nothing, leveraging insane longevity to eventually win but only after creating a complete slog of a game.

TL;DR The information you've given tells me that you're trying to complain about Imposter with a completely one-sided and inexperienced point of view. Please actually play the meta to a reasonable degree before complaining about something this integral to the meta.

e: if you're running substitute on an offensive threat then the chances your opp has a better answer than imp are 100%, because you have to run a single attack to fit sub/setup/recovery/attack. 1-attack mons are laughably easy to beat unless you have a dire structure
 
In your fervent defense of Imposter, you've overlooked the unhealthy influence it has on the metagame. You question my expertise, but that's missing the point. What matters here is not individual player skill, but the overall effect on the game.

Imposter’s omnipresence influences every team build, not merely specific set ups. The whole metagame bends under its weight, nudging players towards caution and conservatism. Creativity and innovation get stifled. The enjoyment of the game is dimmed.

The council is not deliberately ruining the game, but complacency is a potent enemy. A long-standing feature like Imposter gets a pass, becomes a blind spot. We forget to question it, to scrutinize its impact on the meta.

Now, onto the topic of bans. They are usually implemented to maintain balance in the metagame, to prevent any single Pokémon, move, or ability from becoming too dominant. However, when it comes to Imposter, it's evident that the ability's pervasive influence and the community's adaptation to it has blurred the lines between balance and dominance. While overpowered characters are being banned for their potential to disrupt the metagame, Imposter, which has arguably had an even greater impact, remains.

Imposter’s role in keeping extremes in check might seem necessary, but it's actually an unhealthy dependence. A single ability should not be responsible for the balance of the entire game. Balance should be an interplay of various elements, not the dictation of one. It's more akin to an artificially induced, imposing irritant rather than a genuine attempt at maintaining balance in the tier. It enforces a certain style of play, compelling players to craft teams that can withstand their own mirrored strategies, rather than encouraging a healthy variety of strategies and creativity.

The illusion of Imposter’s balance comes from our forced adaptation. In truth, it’s more an overbearing presence than a benign regulator. It’s like saying we don’t need a vaccine because everyone has already succumbed to the disease. We are surviving, but at what cost?

Imposter's impact is clear. It’s a barrier to new players, an unnecessary complexity in team building. It turns Pokémon into a self-defeating puzzle, where your own strengths become your weaknesses. It’s a thorn in the side, a constant annoyance. Rather than maintaining balance, it’s creating a distorted metagame. In an already complex game, it presents an unwelcome hurdle, one that requires not just strategic skill, but also an intimate knowledge of every potential matchup. It turns the game into an intimidating labyrinth of mirrors, where a player's own selections are weaponized against them. This degree of complexity, while intriguing for experienced players, can be a significant barrier to entry for newcomers. Instead of promoting engagement, it creates an environment that feels unwelcoming and needlessly convoluted.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
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i am about to collapse from exhaustion sorry if htis is incoherent

Imposter’s omnipresence influences every team build, not merely specific set ups.
yes
The whole metagame bends under its weight
yes
nudging players towards caution and conservatism. Creativity and innovation get stifled. The enjoyment of the game is dimmed.
how does this follow from the previous two statements? imposter is hardly the only thing whose weight the metagame bends under. setup (e.g. simple no retreat), instant recovery moves, paralysis, fur coat/ice scales, v-create, arceus are just some examples of threats that are fucking hard to deal with because this is not an easy game. if you don't want all of these banned (which i assume you don't) what makes imposter stand out? lets keep reading
While overpowered characters are being banned for their potential to disrupt the metagame, Imposter, which has arguably had an even greater impact, remains.
show me a team that would be good if imposter wasn't in the meta but sucks solely because of imposter
A single ability should not be responsible for the balance of the entire game. Balance should be an interplay of various elements, not the dictation of one.
i kinda agree with this but my blame falls more on gamefreak for removing spectral thief and core enforcer from the game. every bh player i know agrees that the game would be 10x cooler with those. but yea, nothing more fun than loading up some wack ass gen 7 bh team with some crazy fakespeed + dual screens + hard hazard stack to beat shed + crazy fur coat setup user, you do not need imposter to make that stuff work
Imposter's impact is clear. It’s a barrier to new players, an unnecessary complexity in team building. It turns Pokémon into a self-defeating puzzle, where your own strengths become your weaknesses. It’s a thorn in the side, a constant annoyance. Rather than maintaining balance, it’s creating a distorted metagame.
what if i think this sounds awesome and i don't see why you are calling it "unnecessary"? at the very least it's more welcome than some goofy breaker that 2hkos everything in the game or some guy that kills you for hitting him
Imposter also serves as a deterrent to new players. In an already complex game, it presents an unwelcome hurdle, one that requires not just strategic skill, but also an intimate knowledge of every potential matchup. It turns the game into an intimidating labyrinth of mirrors, where a player's own selections are weaponized against them. This degree of complexity, while intriguing for experienced players, can be a significant barrier to entry for newcomers.
me when the game that people enjoy because of its difficulty is difficult

me when there is a game called "Intimidating Labyrinth of Mirrors" on sale on steam and i think it sounds awesome and i buy it and open it up and i have to navigate an intimidating labyrinth of mirrors
Instead of promoting engagement, it creates an environment that feels unwelcoming and needlessly convoluted.
join the discord and hang out with people thats how you "promote engagement" your post is really a complaint about not feeling like you are welcome in the bh community. we are chill i promise. ask someone in the omcord to give you a sinnohremakes invite. i promise we wont just call you "uninformed" or whatever the hell tea guzzler was talking about

i also do agree that bh ladder as a learning experience is kind of silly and you don't learn from "legitimate strategies" for quite some time, but also this happens in every game. you should see the shit that i play against on lichess, those guys have chess as a hobby and are rated 2000 yet know nothing about the game ever
 

Tea Guzzler

it's all gone pear shaped
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In your fervent defense of Imposter, you've overlooked the unhealthy influence it has on the metagame. You question my expertise, but that's missing the point. What matters here is not individual player skill, but the overall effect on the game.

Imposter’s omnipresence influences every team build, not merely specific set ups. The whole metagame bends under its weight, nudging players towards caution and conservatism. Creativity and innovation get stifled. The enjoyment of the game is dimmed.

The council is not deliberately ruining the game, but complacency is a potent enemy. A long-standing feature like Imposter gets a pass, becomes a blind spot. We forget to question it, to scrutinize its impact on the meta.

Now, onto the topic of bans. They are usually implemented to maintain balance in the metagame, to prevent any single Pokémon, move, or ability from becoming too dominant. However, when it comes to Imposter, it's evident that the ability's pervasive influence and the community's adaptation to it has blurred the lines between balance and dominance. While overpowered characters are being banned for their potential to disrupt the metagame, Imposter, which has arguably had an even greater impact, remains.

Imposter’s role in keeping extremes in check might seem necessary, but it's actually an unhealthy dependence. A single ability should not be responsible for the balance of the entire game. Balance should be an interplay of various elements, not the dictation of one. It's more akin to an artificially induced, imposing irritant rather than a genuine attempt at maintaining balance in the tier. It enforces a certain style of play, compelling players to craft teams that can withstand their own mirrored strategies, rather than encouraging a healthy variety of strategies and creativity.

The illusion of Imposter’s balance comes from our forced adaptation. In truth, it’s more an overbearing presence than a benign regulator. It’s like saying we don’t need a vaccine because everyone has already succumbed to the disease. We are surviving, but at what cost?

Imposter's impact is clear. It’s a barrier to new players, an unnecessary complexity in team building. It turns Pokémon into a self-defeating puzzle, where your own strengths become your weaknesses. It’s a thorn in the side, a constant annoyance. Rather than maintaining balance, it’s creating a distorted metagame. In an already complex game, it presents an unwelcome hurdle, one that requires not just strategic skill, but also an intimate knowledge of every potential matchup. It turns the game into an intimidating labyrinth of mirrors, where a player's own selections are weaponized against them. This degree of complexity, while intriguing for experienced players, can be a significant barrier to entry for newcomers. Instead of promoting engagement, it creates an environment that feels unwelcoming and needlessly convoluted.
Questioning your expertise is important, and it is so because you having little experience with the game means you don't know what you're talking about in the capacity that's required for something as big as Imposter. Almost all complaints to do with Imposter are from inexperienced players that simply lack the knowledge to use correct counterplay to it; it becomes a problem when this counterplay stops working (as with any overpowered thing; the counterplay stops working or doesn't exist), but Imposter does not suit this and never has done. Just bear in mind that 99% of "Imposter is broken" complaints are from people with minimal meta experience, and almost every seasoned player thinks its healthy.

You're correct in saying that Imposter influences every team, but you overstate the degree to which it does so in both this post and the earlier one. Saying that the entire meta centralizes around it, as I said earlier, is just wrong; a large majority of Pokemon, mostly offensive ones, don't have to go out of their way to dissuade Imposter from waving the magic wand and getting free KOs. Defensive Pokemon have their work cut out for them but can still achieve this feat relatively consistently with the bevy of utility options that they're naturally going to be carrying. Also what's worth noting here is that your enjoyment of the meta is dimmed by Imposter, but that doesn't by default mean everybody's is; I quite like Imposter creating interesting and skillful power dynamics in-game, and not having to contend with broken-offensive-threat-spam in the builder thanks to its presence. Imposter's presence in the long term does not harm creativity - innovation still happens at a notable rate - it means you can't just get away with the point-and-click teams that rely on offensive breaker spam that no Imposter would reasonable enable.

The "long-standing thing getting a pass" also doesn't really work when Quiver Dance, something key to BH since its inception, has been banned. Many other long-standing things that were fine before have also been banned, like Shedinja and Transform in Gen 8 and Slaking more recently. Pointing the finger at Imposter getting away with bans simply because "it's been around for a while" misunderstands what tiering aims to do, being to remove broken elements regardless of what those elements are. If something hasn't been tiered on, players don't see it as broken, simple as that.

Leading on from the above, this isn't how tiering works. Pokemon aren't tiered based on how dominant they are; they're tiered on how unfair or uncompetitive they are. Something can be entirely dominant and still be fine - look at Great Tusk in OU, Corviknight in AAA, or Landorus-T in like every format ever - these things are everywhere, with Corviknight seeing as high as 80% usage, and yet barely anybody thinks they're broken (because they aren't). Being dominant is not the same as being broken, and tiering around dominance creates an endless cycle of unnecessary bans that accomplish nothing.

You saying that Imposter is responsible for the entire balance of the metagame is just wrong, especially given the sentence before you say that it keeps the extremes in check. Imposter also simply does not enforce "a certain style of play", because that style doesn't exist and never has done. You're saying this like Imposter counterplay is completely binary and plays like a flowchart, and it can do if you build your teams that way, but it usually isn't, and there is a great deal of the creativity you so desire in finding creative ways to Imposter-proof your teammates. Withstanding your own strategies for almost every instance is also just... not hard, at all; you really don't have to go far out of your way to Imposter-proof stuff in many cases, unless you're using a breaker specifically designed to be outlandish (at which point; you're asking for a dodgy matchup into things). Describing the situation like us all being sick, thus not needing the vaccine, is also in my opinion backwards; Imposter is the vaccine for the disease that is the out-offense hell that no Imp BH would be. Can we tier stuff after imp is gone? Sure. Will the meta be better after its settled? Almost definitely not, and the time it'd take to get there is beyond reasonable.

Imposter is a barrier to new players but it's untilately a necessary barrier. What would you prefer - someone losing to being counter-swept once, asking for advice on how to combat this, and simply changing the defensive option (or more often adding one) to not get counterswept? Or that same player getting blasted multiple times by random un-improofed offensive stuff and being told "just win faster" as a counterplay option? One of these is significantly more intuitive and results in higher-quality and more skillfully-crafted teams.

TL;DR AGAIN - I really think your reasoning is beyond flawed, overstating Imposter's supposed negative impacts (when they don't really exist) and completely missing why Imposter is both necessary and healthy.
 
The council is not deliberately ruining the game, but complacency is a potent enemy. A long-standing feature like Imposter gets a pass, becomes a blind spot. We forget to question it, to scrutinize its impact on the meta.
Hi, I wanted to address this false assumption. No aspect of the metagame gets a pass in tiering action/watchlist because of their status as a "long-standing feature"; when a meta of BH drastically changes, aspects of the metagame that were healthy and balanced before can become broken and banworthy. We have seen the example this generation with the banning of Poison Heal and Quiver Dance, staple parts of BH for many generations, due to metagame developments and the loss of tools that were strong at checking them.
Similarly, Imposter, despite being the face (or one of the) of every BH meta, is not immune to questioning. I myself firmly believe that Imposter currently is broken and an unbalanced part of the current metagame. However, I am against the suggestion to fully ban Imposter, which I will get to later in this post.

Imposter is unbalanced but not for the reasons you listed. Imposter is unbalanced because Imposter is exceptionally strong into defensive mons, making it a very potent late game wincon.
Imposter’s omnipresence influences every team build, not merely specific set ups. The whole metagame bends under its weight, nudging players towards caution and conservatism. Creativity and innovation get stifled. The enjoyment of the game is dimmed.
This is true... except it is present in almost every metagame. Every meta will have a dominating Pokemon, one that is incredibly strong yet not quite banworthy, and it warps the meta around it due to its strength and usage. I won't be providing any examples because I'm not knowledgeable enough to confidently make claims for those metas, but you should be able to find these mons in standard tiers like OU and Ubers, as well as in other OMs. Now, Imposter treads the line between being just incredibly strong and broken, but there are reasons it is not banworthy.
Imposter’s role in keeping extremes in check might seem necessary, but it's actually an unhealthy dependence. A single ability should not be responsible for the balance of the entire game. Balance should be an interplay of various elements, not the dictation of one. It's more akin to an artificially induced, imposing irritant rather than a genuine attempt at maintaining balance in the tier. It enforces a certain style of play, compelling players to craft teams that can withstand their own mirrored strategies, rather than encouraging a healthy variety of strategies and creativity.
The problem with this statement is that relying on Imposter to check some unhealthy aspects that would dominate the metagame should Imposter be banned is not an unhealthy dependence. For the BH meta, where there can be so many possibilities, Imposter is necessary to reduce the matchup fishing of the metagame. Imposter can prevent an unprepared-for offensive mon from winning on preview by giving you retaliation opportunities. Imposter can prevent a bulky team from winning on preview because your offensive mons cannot break through.

The most important role of Imposter in keeping the current BH meta's balance is limiting setup sweepers. If you are moderately experienced with the meta, you would know that despite tools such as Quiver Dance and Poison Heal being banned, bulky setup is still extremely potent. Calm Mind Arceus formes are some of the best wincons, and that is with Imposter being in the meta. With Imposter in the meta, they are forced into suboptimalities such as running a Poison-inducing move and burning Tera to prevent Imposter from infinite walling. Without Imposter, we will see many many sets running something like Calm Mind/Victory Dance + Recovery + STAB + Coverage. If you were familiar with the meta prior to the Poison Heal ban, this would be effectively the same, having bulky setup sweepers running rampant with Imposter unable to check them and entire game becoming a matchup fish of whether you prepared for that specific setup sweeper.
If Imposter were to be banned, we would go down the trail of banning these setup moves, banning the mons running 3 attacks + recovery because they have no good checks, banning Regenerator because nothing is preventing Regen from infinite stalling unless you get the right offensive matchup.
Imposter's impact is clear. It’s a barrier to new players, an unnecessary complexity in team building.
Unfortunately that is just how BH is as a meta. When you have so many possibilities the meta is bound to be harder for new players to be introduced to. It is not like the other metas do not have barriers to new players. I can start trying to learn a new tier like UU or something and be completely clueless because I have never played or watched a game.

Edit: I will make a post soonTM on metagame thoughts and developments as we are approaching the half way point of OMPL to try to instigate some discussion.
 
Questioning your expertise is important, and it is so because you having little experience with the game means you don't know what you're talking about in the capacity that's required for something as big as Imposter. Almost all complaints to do with Imposter are from inexperienced players that simply lack the knowledge to use correct counterplay to it; it becomes a problem when this counterplay stops working (as with any overpowered thing; the counterplay stops working or doesn't exist), but Imposter does not suit this and never has done. Just bear in mind that 99% of "Imposter is broken" complaints are from people with minimal meta experience, and almost every seasoned player thinks its healthy.

You're correct in saying that Imposter influences every team, but you overstate the degree to which it does so in both this post and the earlier one. Saying that the entire meta centralizes around it, as I said earlier, is just wrong; a large majority of Pokemon, mostly offensive ones, don't have to go out of their way to dissuade Imposter from waving the magic wand and getting free KOs. Defensive Pokemon have their work cut out for them but can still achieve this feat relatively consistently with the bevy of utility options that they're naturally going to be carrying. Also what's worth noting here is that your enjoyment of the meta is dimmed by Imposter, but that doesn't by default mean everybody's is; I quite like Imposter creating interesting and skillful power dynamics in-game, and not having to contend with broken-offensive-threat-spam in the builder thanks to its presence. Imposter's presence in the long term does not harm creativity - innovation still happens at a notable rate - it means you can't just get away with the point-and-click teams that rely on offensive breaker spam that no Imposter would reasonable enable.

The "long-standing thing getting a pass" also doesn't really work when Quiver Dance, something key to BH since its inception, has been banned. Many other long-standing things that were fine before have also been banned, like Shedinja and Transform in Gen 8 and Slaking more recently. Pointing the finger at Imposter getting away with bans simply because "it's been around for a while" misunderstands what tiering aims to do, being to remove broken elements regardless of what those elements are. If something hasn't been tiered on, players don't see it as broken, simple as that.

Leading on from the above, this isn't how tiering works. Pokemon aren't tiered based on how dominant they are; they're tiered on how unfair or uncompetitive they are. Something can be entirely dominant and still be fine - look at Great Tusk in OU, Corviknight in AAA, or Landorus-T in like every format ever - these things are everywhere, with Corviknight seeing as high as 80% usage, and yet barely anybody thinks they're broken (because they aren't). Being dominant is not the same as being broken, and tiering around dominance creates an endless cycle of unnecessary bans that accomplish nothing.

You saying that Imposter is responsible for the entire balance of the metagame is just wrong, especially given the sentence before you say that it keeps the extremes in check. Imposter also simply does not enforce "a certain style of play", because that style doesn't exist and never has done. You're saying this like Imposter counterplay is completely binary and plays like a flowchart, and it can do if you build your teams that way, but it usually isn't, and there is a great deal of the creativity you so desire in finding creative ways to Imposter-proof your teammates. Withstanding your own strategies for almost every instance is also just... not hard, at all; you really don't have to go far out of your way to Imposter-proof stuff in many cases, unless you're using a breaker specifically designed to be outlandish (at which point; you're asking for a dodgy matchup into things). Describing the situation like us all being sick, thus not needing the vaccine, is also in my opinion backwards; Imposter is the vaccine for the disease that is the out-offense hell that no Imp BH would be. Can we tier stuff after imp is gone? Sure. Will the meta be better after its settled? Almost definitely not, and the time it'd take to get there is beyond reasonable.

Imposter is a barrier to new players but it's untilately a necessary barrier. What would you prefer - someone losing to being counter-swept once, asking for advice on how to combat this, and simply changing the defensive option (or more often adding one) to not get counterswept? Or that same player getting blasted multiple times by random un-improofed offensive stuff and being told "just win faster" as a counterplay option? One of these is significantly more intuitive and results in higher-quality and more skillfully-crafted teams.

TL;DR AGAIN - I really think your reasoning is beyond flawed, overstating Imposter's supposed negative impacts (when they don't really exist) and completely missing why Imposter is both necessary and healthy.
Your response, while eloquent, does not address the crux of my argument. I maintain that Imposter, regardless of how well-established it is, has a profoundly destabilizing influence on the metagame that suppresses creativity and raises the bar of entry for newcomers.

You've mentioned that the majority of complaints about Imposter come from inexperienced players. However, isn't the perspective of new players a crucial part of a healthy metagame? If Imposter represents a steep learning curve and a major barrier to entry, then it's not merely an issue of "getting good" – it's a systemic problem that is inherently off-putting to anyone attempting to engage with the game.

Imposter has not just influenced the game, it has warped it. The constant need to anticipate an Imposter switch-in becomes a preoccupation, clouding team building with an almost paranoid fear of seeing your own Pokémon turned against you. This, by its very nature, inhibits creative and innovative team building. It's not simply a case of defensive or offensive Pokémon having to adapt, it's that every team member must be built with the constant threat of an Imposter in mind.

Your argument that Imposter doesn't enforce a specific style of play is puzzling. If all players must consider the potential of their own Pokémon being used against them, it absolutely dictates a certain style of play. The 'creativity' in Imposter-proofing your teammates doesn’t quite compare to the broader strategic depth that the game could offer without this mechanic.

Imposter as the vaccine for an "out-offense hell" seems an extreme stance. Why must it fall to a single ability to maintain balance? It feels as though it's a crutch, a lazy solution to a deeper problem. Why not address the imbalances themselves, rather than creating a catch-all solution that distorts the metagame in its own way?

The real "mindless offensive strategies" like Belly Drum and Wonder Guard have been dealt with already, and that's good. Is it not possible to create a balanced and enjoyable metagame without relying on the crutch of Imposter? There are numerous alternative methods of balancing the game. These should be pursued, not just accepted as "fixed" because of the artificial balance Imposter provides.

And it is artificial. It's a shadow hanging over team building, a constant reminder that you're not just building against an opponent, but also potentially yourself. This isn't balance, it's a distortion. It's an obstacle that doesn't reward skill or strategy, but paranoia and self-defeating thought processes. The game should be about outthinking your opponent, not constantly second-guessing your own choices.

To conclude, I'm not a Balanced Hackmons expert. But I believe that the metagame can, and should, be more than just dancing around the threat of Imposter. Newcomers should feel excitement at the possibilities of team building, not dread at the prospect of facing their own Pokémon. They should be able to craft powerful sets without fearing their own reflection. If the metagame is to grow and flourish, it needs to become more welcoming, more accessible, and more creative – not just for a devoted few, but for everyone. And to achieve that, Imposter's stranglehold on the game needs to be addressed.
 

Tea Guzzler

it's all gone pear shaped
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
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Your response, while eloquent, does not address the crux of my argument. I maintain that Imposter, regardless of how well-established it is, has a profoundly destabilizing influence on the metagame that suppresses creativity and raises the bar of entry for newcomers.

You've mentioned that the majority of complaints about Imposter come from inexperienced players. However, isn't the perspective of new players a crucial part of a healthy metagame? If Imposter represents a steep learning curve and a major barrier to entry, then it's not merely an issue of "getting good" – it's a systemic problem that is inherently off-putting to anyone attempting to engage with the game.

Imposter has not just influenced the game, it has warped it. The constant need to anticipate an Imposter switch-in becomes a preoccupation, clouding team building with an almost paranoid fear of seeing your own Pokémon turned against you. This, by its very nature, inhibits creative and innovative team building. It's not simply a case of defensive or offensive Pokémon having to adapt, it's that every team member must be built with the constant threat of an Imposter in mind.

Your argument that Imposter doesn't enforce a specific style of play is puzzling. If all players must consider the potential of their own Pokémon being used against them, it absolutely dictates a certain style of play. The 'creativity' in Imposter-proofing your teammates doesn’t quite compare to the broader strategic depth that the game could offer without this mechanic.

Imposter as the vaccine for an "out-offense hell" seems an extreme stance. Why must it fall to a single ability to maintain balance? It feels as though it's a crutch, a lazy solution to a deeper problem. Why not address the imbalances themselves, rather than creating a catch-all solution that distorts the metagame in its own way?

The real "mindless offensive strategies" like Belly Drum and Wonder Guard have been dealt with already, and that's good. Is it not possible to create a balanced and enjoyable metagame without relying on the crutch of Imposter? There are numerous alternative methods of balancing the game. These should be pursued, not just accepted as "fixed" because of the artificial balance Imposter provides.

And it is artificial. It's a shadow hanging over team building, a constant reminder that you're not just building against an opponent, but also potentially yourself. This isn't balance, it's a distortion. It's an obstacle that doesn't reward skill or strategy, but paranoia and self-defeating thought processes. The game should be about outthinking your opponent, not constantly second-guessing your own choices.

To conclude, I'm not a Balanced Hackmons expert. But I believe that the metagame can, and should, be more than just dancing around the threat of Imposter. Newcomers should feel excitement at the possibilities of team building, not dread at the prospect of facing their own Pokémon. They should be able to craft powerful sets without fearing their own reflection. If the metagame is to grow and flourish, it needs to become more welcoming, more accessible, and more creative – not just for a devoted few, but for everyone. And to achieve that, Imposter's stranglehold on the game needs to be addressed.
I really think this argument is just going to end up going in circles but it always done. I need to sleep anyway and I don't know if I will be asked to pick it up again in the morning. I'm also fairly convinced that you're typing this with ChatGPT with how many points are being missed, the accented e's, and the completely over-the-top language, but i'll respond anyway.

The point I was making with the imbalance of who thinks Imposter is fine is that most experienced players find Imposter balanced. Tiering to get new players into a tier simply is not a thing that happens in any meta; this is by definition not what tiering is for. If the meta is healthy, people will naturally be able to pick it up, and most people pick it up fine in spite of Imposter's presence.

Being scared of an Imposter switch-in to the point of paranoia is just actually wrong. Next to nothing in this meta is a free switch for Imposter, whether it be through raw damage, utility, status, or the threat of being pivoted on and farmed as an opportunity for an opposing wallbreaker. Sure, everything has to be built with Imposter in mind, but how is that different to building that Pokemon with everything trying to wall it or out-offense it in mind? Of the extensive list of things that a team has to prep for, Imposter is nowhere near the top of that list, because if you're building coherent structures you're already going to have the job half-done in 90% of cases anyway.

Also, you just mentioned that "you're by no means an expert in BH". Who are you to then say that the creative options offered with Imposter-proofing are out-weighed by the things you can use without Imposter? Do one with your robot mate.
 
Hi, I wanted to address this false assumption. No aspect of the metagame gets a pass in tiering action/watchlist because of their status as a "long-standing feature"; when a meta of BH drastically changes, aspects of the metagame that were healthy and balanced before can become broken and banworthy. We have seen the example this generation with the banning of Poison Heal and Quiver Dance, staple parts of BH for many generations, due to metagame developments and the loss of tools that were strong at checking them.
Similarly, Imposter, despite being the face (or one of the) of every BH meta, is not immune to questioning. I myself firmly believe that Imposter currently is broken and an unbalanced part of the current metagame. However, I am against the suggestion to fully ban Imposter, which I will get to later in this post.

Imposter is unbalanced but not for the reasons you listed. Imposter is unbalanced because Imposter is exceptionally strong into defensive mons, making it a very potent late game wincon.

This is true... except it is present in almost every metagame. Every meta will have a dominating Pokemon, one that is incredibly strong yet not quite banworthy, and it warps the meta around it due to its strength and usage. I won't be providing any examples because I'm not knowledgeable enough to confidently make claims for those metas, but you should be able to find these mons in standard tiers like OU and Ubers, as well as in other OMs. Now, Imposter treads the line between being just incredibly strong and broken, but there are reasons it is not banworthy.

The problem with this statement is that relying on Imposter to check some unhealthy aspects that would dominate the metagame should Imposter be banned is not an unhealthy dependence. For the BH meta, where there can be so many possibilities, Imposter is necessary to reduce the matchup fishing of the metagame. Imposter can prevent an unprepared-for offensive mon from winning on preview by giving you retaliation opportunities. Imposter can prevent a bulky team from winning on preview because your offensive mons cannot break through.

The most important role of Imposter in keeping the current BH meta's balance is limiting setup sweepers. If you are moderately experienced with the meta, you would know that despite tools such as Quiver Dance and Poison Heal being banned, bulky setup is still extremely potent. Calm Mind Arceus formes are some of the best wincons, and that is with Imposter being in the meta. With Imposter in the meta, they are forced into suboptimalities such as running a Poison-inducing move and burning Tera to prevent Imposter from infinite walling. Without Imposter, we will see many many sets running something like Calm Mind/Victory Dance + Recovery + STAB + Coverage. If you were familiar with the meta prior to the Poison Heal ban, this would be effectively the same, having bulky setup sweepers running rampant with Imposter unable to check them and entire game becoming a matchup fish of whether you prepared for that specific setup sweeper.
If Imposter were to be banned, we would go down the trail of banning these setup moves, banning the mons running 3 attacks + recovery because they have no good checks, banning Regenerator because nothing is preventing Regen from infinite stalling unless you get the right offensive matchup.

Unfortunately that is just how BH is as a meta. When you have so many possibilities the meta is bound to be harder for new players to be introduced to. It is not like the other metas do not have barriers to new players. I can start trying to learn a new tier like UU or something and be completely clueless because I have never played or watched a game.

Edit: I will make a post soonTM on metagame thoughts and developments as we are approaching the half way point of OMPL to try to instigate some discussion.
I appreciate your comprehensive response and the detailed explanations, but I think the situation deserves a deeper analysis. Yes, I acknowledge that Imposter can seem like a "necessary evil," and I see your points on its value. However, I remain concerned about the exaggerated significance placed on this single ability.

While you argue that without Imposter, we would face a cascade of subsequent bans, I don't necessarily agree. The idea that we would have to "go down the road of making some bans" doesn't strike me as a definitive negative. There are a variety of potent strategies within the metagame, but refining the game by curbing these through targeted bans could offer a more balanced and strategic landscape.

It's difficult to predict with certainty how the absence of Imposter would reshape the metagame. You've pointed out that Pokemon are "forced into suboptimalities," but isn't that exactly what I've been saying? Yes, high-ladder players may accept this as a quirk of the metagame, but this can be a frustrating barrier for low-ladder players. They face the bizarre scenario of having to counter their own Pokemon and adapt to a game that is fundamentally different from any tier they have experienced up to this point. (Imposter exists, of course, in other tiers, but Ditto's low bulk effectively requires it to run Choice Scarf to be viable, meaning it's forced into the niche of a revenge-killer/anti-sweeper.)

Your argument looks at Imposter as just another ability, but I contend that it is more akin to a feature that changes the fundamentals of the game. It's similar to mechanics like Dynamaxing, Z-Moves, and Terastalazation in its impact. Unlike distinct abilities such as Regenerator or Ice Scales, which contribute to the unique identity of a Pokemon, Imposter redefines the nature of the game. Therefore, it seems inappropriate to weigh it in the same scale as other abilities.

Lastly, while Imposter does act as a stabilizing force, preventing the metagame from plunging into chaos, it's worth asking: does it have to be this way? We shouldn't presume that what's considered broken now would remain broken in a metagame devoid of Imposter. When players are freed from the necessity of countering their own teams, they could focus more on running counters for a diverse range of threats, leading to a healthier variety of strategies and creativity.

The best way forward might be to let the metagame evolve without Imposter and make necessary adjustments along the way. It's a risk, I admit, but one that could make for a more engaging and nuanced game in the long run.
 
I really think this argument is just going to end up going in circles but it always done. I need to sleep anyway and I don't know if I will be asked to pick it up again in the morning. I'm also fairly convinced that you're typing this with ChatGPT with how many points are being missed, the accented e's, and the completely over-the-top language, but i'll respond anyway.

The point I was making with the imbalance of who thinks Imposter is fine is that most experienced players find Imposter balanced. Tiering to get new players into a tier simply is not a thing that happens in any meta; this is by definition not what tiering is for. If the meta is healthy, people will naturally be able to pick it up, and most people pick it up fine in spite of Imposter's presence.

Being scared of an Imposter switch-in to the point of paranoia is just actually wrong. Next to nothing in this meta is a free switch for Imposter, whether it be through raw damage, utility, status, or the threat of being pivoted on and farmed as an opportunity for an opposing wallbreaker. Sure, everything has to be built with Imposter in mind, but how is that different to building that Pokemon with everything trying to wall it or out-offense it in mind? Of the extensive list of things that a team has to prep for, Imposter is nowhere near the top of that list, because if you're building coherent structures you're already going to have the job half-done in 90% of cases anyway.

Also, you just mentioned that "you're by no means an expert in BH". Who are you to then say that the creative options offered with Imposter-proofing are out-weighed by the things you can use without Imposter? Do one with your robot mate.
Your assumption about my use of AI assistance is quite beside the point; I'm here presenting arguments and offering my perspective, and that's what should matter. I have taken considerable effort to detail my reasoning, and I assure you, my ideas and beliefs are purely my own.

I concur that Imposter isn't necessarily a guaranteed safe switch-in, given the spectrum of threats present in the metagame. However, my point of concern isn't strictly about the safety of an Imposter switch-in. It's about the pressure it exerts on team building, having to consistently factor in the potential mirror match. This is the "paranoia" I allude to. It's a consistent irritant, where each team must stand up not only to the meta at large but also potentially to itself.

I fear your rebuttal merely validates my suspicion that the current metagame has become somewhat alien to what I, and likely many others, find appealing in Pokémon battles. Instead of the familiar dynamic of simply combating diverse teams, we face a strange scenario – a powered-up doppelganger of our own characters. Yes, some may grow to appreciate this unusual mechanic, finding it an intriguing strategic twist. But to many new players, it feels downright bizarre.

You've believe this format to be 'strategic' and 'exciting', and I respect your perspective. However, I've painstakingly outlined the restrictive influence Imposter exerts on team creation and how it can deter beginners. I've also highlighted how it's become such a dominant force, and we might as well rename the tier to "Impostermons" at this point, or establish a fresh category where Imposter can continue to entertain its admirers without overwhelming the rest of the game.

I acknowledge we're likely at a deadlock here, and that our views on this differ greatly. However, I felt it necessary to articulate these points. Perhaps they will resonate with some, leading to conversations about potentially having a similar tier without imposter.

I do acknowledge, though, that reasonings about how a tier "should" be are strictly subjective. I claim no "objective insights" about this tier. This is just me speaking, rather than as an "expert" who is dissatisfied with the imposter metagame, as a prospective player who finds themselves deterred due to what I view as a steep learning curve and a mechanic whose reach is foreign to regular Pokémon. People such as yourself may enjoy a metagame with imposter, relishing the depth and complexity it brings, but the reason "experts" of the tier have a favorable view of imposter's legality is simply because one has to enjoy the tier to become an expert, and at that point they prefer familiarity. My lack of proficiency with regard to an imposter metagame does not mean I can't argue for a different one. Especially when the tier has evidently allowed imposter since day one.

One may say I lack knowledge of the present tier, but have you knowledge of a tier without imposter? My inexperience may be used to say I do not know what's best for the tier, but perhaps I lack experience because the teambuilding itself seems to play in a way that I can only describe as arbitrarily complex, for better or worse.
 

Ligerithm

Banned deucer.
Your assumption about my use of AI assistance is quite beside the point; I'm here presenting arguments and offering my perspective, and that's what should matter. I have taken considerable effort to detail my reasoning, and I assure you, my ideas and beliefs are purely my own.
If you actually played the game more instead of writing these long, fancy posts, you might get better at it. But it seems like you're letting an AI do your thinking for you. It's pretty obvious, and it makes your posts sound weird.

I concur that Imposter isn't necessarily a guaranteed safe switch-in, given the spectrum of threats present in the metagame. However, my point of concern isn't strictly about the safety of an Imposter switch-in. It's about the pressure it exerts on team building, having to consistently factor in the potential mirror match. This is the "paranoia" I allude to. It's a consistent irritant, where each team must stand up not only to the meta at large but also potentially to itself.

I fear your rebuttal merely validates my suspicion that the current metagame has become somewhat alien to what I, and likely many others, find appealing in Pokémon battles. Instead of the familiar dynamic of simply combating diverse teams, we face a strange scenario – a powered-up doppelganger of our own characters. Yes, some may grow to appreciate this unusual mechanic, finding it an intriguing strategic twist. But to many new players, it feels downright bizarre.
Tenfold, you're making this more complicated than it needs to be. You keep repeating the same things over and over, and it’s getting old.

You're complaining about Imposter a lot, but it really sounds like you just don't know how to deal with it. All this stuff about Imposter ruining the game, stopping creativity, causing paranoia is just a fancy way of saying "I don't understand how to stop it, so it must be bad."

Pokémon battles are all about strategy. Yes, you need to think about the possibility of Imposter. You also need to think about all the other moves, abilities, and strategies your opponent might use. If you don't like dealing with unexpected things, maybe try a simpler game.


I acknowledge we're likely at a deadlock here, and that our views on this differ greatly. However, I felt it necessary to articulate these points. Perhaps they will resonate with some, leading to conversations about potentially having a similar tier without imposter.

I do acknowledge, though, that reasonings about how a tier "should" be are strictly subjective. I claim no "objective insights" about this tier. This is just me speaking, rather than as an "expert" who is dissatisfied with the imposter metagame, as a prospective player who finds themselves deterred due to what I view as a steep learning curve and a mechanic whose reach is foreign to regular Pokémon. People such as yourself may enjoy a metagame with imposter, relishing the depth and complexity it brings, but the reason "experts" of the tier have a favorable view of imposter's legality is simply because one has to enjoy the tier to become an expert, and at that point they prefer familiarity. My lack of proficiency with regard to an imposter metagame does not mean I can't argue for a different one. Especially when the tier has evidently allowed imposter since day one.

One may say I lack knowledge of the present tier, but have you knowledge of a tier without imposter? My inexperience may be used to say I do not know what's best for the tier, but perhaps I lack experience because the teambuilding itself seems to play in a way that I can only describe as arbitrarily complex, for better or worse.


You say you're not claiming to be an expert, but you sure are acting like one. You think your failure to understand basic strategy should dictate everything.

I've played other games. I know what they're like. And I could guess what this one would be like without Imposter, but why would I? The game's fine as it is. Lots of people like it. It makes you think, it's hard, and not everyone's gonna like it. But that's just how it is.

Either learn to play the game or stop playing. Don't waste our time with these long, confusing posts. Thanks.
 
Hello!
pops head out
I heard people were complaining about Imposter and mayhaps even challenging my ever-important role as The Self Proclaimed #1 Imposter Chansey Hater and so I must weigh in on this.

First, a few things:
II'm also fairly convinced that you're typing this with ChatGPT with how many points are being missed, the accented e's, and the completely over-the-top language, but i'll respond anyway.
Definitely ChatGPT'd, the writing structure is scream's AI

You question my expertise, but that's missing the point. What matters here is not individual player skill, but the overall effect on the game.
To conclude, I'm not a Balanced Hackmons expert.
Hence why your expertise is questioned.

I myself firmly believe that Imposter currently is broken and an unbalanced part of the current metagame. However, I am against the suggestion to fully ban Imposter, which I will get to later in this post.
I like this opinion, this is a based and red-pilled opinion.

Anyways, it sounds like this experience is primarily a low ELO thing that progressively sees less effectiveness as time goes on. In lower 1000~1200 ELO, Imposter is a constant annoyance that people don't really know how to deal with. On a higher ELO playing field, I just don't feel that Imposter is used as much anymore. Everyone knows how to deal with Imposter, so it can really be said that the prominence of Imposter is the result of previous generation metagames as well as newcomers who keep thinking it is ridiculously broken. Reasons that Imposter is a nuisance in high ELOs is the amount of stall that Imposter users can pull off rather than any gameplay itself. As cityscapes mentioned with chess, this is the equivalent of a 600 ELO player consistently getting bullied by scholars mate or fried liver. With new players of BH, they often think they have some overpowered unbeatable strategy, which gets easily countered by more seasoned players. As with any competitive Pokemon team, there needs to be a balance of offense and defense in order to make things work thus Imposter not only encourages newcomers to Improof, but also learn how to counter common threats. It can be said that the presence of Imposter is actually beneficial to the early meta.

Imposter is still annoying and I still hate it with a burning passion, but at the same time I feel like your opinions on Imposter are misplaced and misinformed resulting from a lack of knowledge on both the ability and the meta. In conclusion: cope and seethe.

Also, whats the status on Tera from the council?
 

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