If by "set up stab photons while being imposterproof" you mean using photon+hyperspace fury, thats wrong. Imposter can use hyperspace fury and bop. Otherwise 4/10 riddle too ez
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BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread
- Thread starter E4 Flint
- Start date
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If by "set up stab photons while being imposterproof" you mean using photon+hyperspace fury, thats wrong. Imposter can use hyperspace fury and bop. Otherwise 4/10 riddle too ez
Hello all
From recent developments in other OM's on suspects, I have decided to amend my decision making process. As has always been the case, the cutoff for a decision is a supermajority of 60% (Note: this can't be changed). Here are some of the changes I am thinking of:
From recent developments in other OM's on suspects, I have decided to amend my decision making process. As has always been the case, the cutoff for a decision is a supermajority of 60% (Note: this can't be changed). Here are some of the changes I am thinking of:
- I am removing the idea of counting Abstain votes towards the number of votes needed to make a decision for a suspect. Only if you vote For/against a decision will your vote be counted towards the total number
- I am thinking of making the final decision myself if the majority falls in the range of [55,60)
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Innocuous opening to lull us into a false stupor of comfort.
*cough* 1v1 *cough*
I completely agree with this idea, it seems odd that a no-vote would in practice count towards one side (the side of the status quo) since it increases the number of votes Ban would need (or Unban in a unbanning suspect I guess) in order to get the 60% but it doesn't affect the number of votes dnb would need to stop it. Still having Abstain as an option (rather than just not voting) seems a good idea to me
I also agree with this idea that if there is obviously a reasonable call for a change to the meta but not quite the 60% then an executive decision can be made, rather than something getting stuck at 59-41 and not being able to do anything about it despite there being 40% more people who support ban. However I would go further to support:
since imo if the majority of people want a ban that seems enough evidence that there is some sort of issue to be addressed. Obviously the closer to 50% it is the more reluctant you should be to ban via executive decision but I would argue any majority is justification if you feel that would be the best approach and this gives you more freedom in your approach (which wouldn't necessarily need to be used). It seems odd to rule out doing something entirely that most people support - after such a suspect it should be considered as one of the possible options going forwards (the others being another suspect on the same matter, a related suspect that tackles another aspect of the problem or do nothing).
I changed my mind on suspect topics.
Instead of asking myself is what is OP i ask myself what do i gain of the result.
I can adapt quickly and a potential change 3 months feels resonable.
In smaller OMs you can see their leaders heavy pushing for controversies during OMotM time.
I played alot Sharded Power and it had 3 metagames in a single month.
aki0s, your post inspired me to look up on president voting results in history, the best video i found was this;
If you compare suspect tests with real elections, Flint would be making promises for a better meta.
The leader is setting the course and wants to ensure a cooperation of his followers.
The real debatte is always behind the scenes, chosing a leader is already a result of that,
Making an annoucement is presenting a soft agreement.
Nevertheless, i have my opinion and im president of it.
Instead of asking myself is what is OP i ask myself what do i gain of the result.
I can adapt quickly and a potential change 3 months feels resonable.
In smaller OMs you can see their leaders heavy pushing for controversies during OMotM time.
I played alot Sharded Power and it had 3 metagames in a single month.
aki0s, your post inspired me to look up on president voting results in history, the best video i found was this;
If you compare suspect tests with real elections, Flint would be making promises for a better meta.
The leader is setting the course and wants to ensure a cooperation of his followers.
The real debatte is always behind the scenes, chosing a leader is already a result of that,
Making an annoucement is presenting a soft agreement.
Nevertheless, i have my opinion and im president of it.
Voting Thread for the current suspect on Psychic Surge has begun here. Based on feedback here, I have:
- put in the rule about Abstain votes not counting to the overall number. This rule has not changed the results on any previous suspects, as the ban percentage would only increase
- decided I’m not going forward with the executive final decision idea based on any range. The decision will be made on 60% community votes only. I will consider other options in the future if needed, but this is the position I am taking at the moment
Let me start this post with the disclaimer that I'm clearly not the best person to be discussing bans in Balanced Hackmons, nor have I ever claimed to be but I would like something to be clarified if possible. This is just the view of someone who plays BH on and off, and is more or less an outside view of the tier.
The current attitude towards Imposter is that discussing its removal from the metagame is quite "ignorant" or "irrational". I used to be of the belief that the reason for its existence in the tier was to keep set-up sweepers in check, which was undercut by my thoughts of potentially banning the potent set-up moves in addition to Imposter being a preferable option. Regardless, I never really spoke up about it due to my lack of knowledge about the metagame. Recently, I've had this clarified as a misconception and not at all the reason for its remained existence in the meta.
So my assumption was that this thread would explain why it's not banned, bringing me to the "Why isn't ___ banned?" section of the header posts. I feel as if the reason provided isn't an adequate excuse to never look into what an Imposter-less BH would look like. Again, I have formerly forfeited the point that I am not the most knowledgeable about this metagame, so I'm looking for clarification rather than action necessarily.
Now again, because I'm so afraid of causing conflict and just want an actual answer. Please tell me why I'm wrong.
The current attitude towards Imposter is that discussing its removal from the metagame is quite "ignorant" or "irrational". I used to be of the belief that the reason for its existence in the tier was to keep set-up sweepers in check, which was undercut by my thoughts of potentially banning the potent set-up moves in addition to Imposter being a preferable option. Regardless, I never really spoke up about it due to my lack of knowledge about the metagame. Recently, I've had this clarified as a misconception and not at all the reason for its remained existence in the meta.
So my assumption was that this thread would explain why it's not banned, bringing me to the "Why isn't ___ banned?" section of the header posts. I feel as if the reason provided isn't an adequate excuse to never look into what an Imposter-less BH would look like. Again, I have formerly forfeited the point that I am not the most knowledgeable about this metagame, so I'm looking for clarification rather than action necessarily.
The issue with Imposter however isn't that its sets are unpredictable or that it's difficult to imposter-proof your team; it's that it's heavily limiting the pool of usable Pokémon and that it forces the metagame into a much more defensive and drawn out state. By permitting Imposter, the ability to run many offensive Pokémon is nullified by the fact that running a Pokémon in the back to check it efficiently isn't a stable option or a viable one, whereas often it is not worth sacrificing a Pokémon slot on. By doing this Imposter is severely impairing diversity and creativity. There's not really a beneficial reason for it to exist in the metagame within this statement.
Why is it though? You've provided absolutely no justification for it to be "woven into the experience of BH". It's inherently unhealthy in the fact that they get a direct upgrade of your Pokémon. Imposter-proofing is an obscure concept that isn't completely justified, as it turns the metagame into a defensive shitfest with games that average hundreds of turns. Defensive Pokémon excel due to their ability to "imposter-proof themselves", instead of being a balanced metagame where offense is viable instead of something to laugh about. Removing Imposter doesn't come with direct disadvantages so why is there such a negative stigma around possible removal discussion.
Sure. How does this argue for keeping Imposter in the metagame? I'm sure a lot more strategies would arise in the wake of an Imposter ban. This shouldn't be an unfair assumption to make.
It does give an unfair advantage. The Imposter virtually always has more HP or an unfair item such as Light Ball or Thick Club. This point is moot as well.
Now again, because I'm so afraid of causing conflict and just want an actual answer. Please tell me why I'm wrong.
I'm not sure why this argument that "It let's you run stuff with no viable checks" is a good argument for banning imposter. Surely if a Pokémon doesn't haven't any effective ways to check it then it not being used can only be a good thing? I honestly can't see why it should be easier to bring stuff that's so broken that even if you know the exact moveset and the copy doesn't have the item of your choice then there are still no viable checks... I'm p sure what you outlined here is exactly the main reason we have kept imposter.
I think the reasoning behind this statement is that imposter is one of the very few predicable things in the meta and about the only threat you can have absolute confidence you have covered when you teambuild, this isn't so much an argument for keeping it but rather pointing out it seems odd to consider banning something easy to check when there are so many things that are almost impossible to cover properly if they are played well.
(Sorry, couldn't seem to get the quote you referred to in the quote so people reading will have to scroll up to your post.)
The issue of it being centralising (to a degree I don't think any other tier has) is not one I can dispute but the BH banning policy explicitly says the philosophy is of Inclusion so it would seem contrary to this to ban something that is easy to build around, I think a lot of your post argues that there are no reasons to keep it but the whole basis of BH is we keep things unless it is strictly necessary not to.
Also, while you are correct in saying this is a fairly defensively oriented meta, it is not true that every team has to have defensive parts to it or that every team is pushed towards stall by imposter. To see this just looking through the replays for the BH open will show you at least two players brought what is probably the most offensive team you will see in any meta: suicide lead, 3 setup sweepers, sash wallbreaker (and imposter :/).
I could also go on about what I see as the benefits of imposter but that would be 1) moot and 2) the same arguments everyone has heard hundreds of times (although anyone can pm me about it if they really want to).
He meant running a check simultaneously on the same team.
The reason why I dont feel impostor broken is that it is not necessarily more dangerous than other opposing forms of offense. If a team cannot beat an impostor, then it cant beat the same pokemon in its non imposter version either whenever the opponent carries one.
However the ´get +1 in every stat´ is terrible argument. Would getting +1 in everything but speed fair? Sounds like a slippery slope.
I'd like to point out that Chansey as an Imposter user meets all these requirements, except replacing "easy to patch weaknesses" with downright invincible levels of bulk.
I bring up Chansey in particular, because it's the only Imposter user that forces damage calculations to jump from this:
252 SpA Choice Specs Rayquaza-Mega Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 494-584 (119.3 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
to this:
252 SpA Choice Specs Rayquaza-Mega Core Enforcer vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 332-392 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO
Even Blissey cuts the damage to ~3/5 the original roll:
252 SpA Choice Specs Rayquaza-Mega Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 494-584 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This alone should show that there is a very clear distinction between fighting yourself and fighting a literally superior version of yourself. Not to mention that these calcs are specifically for high-HP threats like Rayquaza, Mewtwo, Xerneas, and more. Threats with low HP, like Diancie-Mega, just have their damage rolls skewed even more by Imposter:
252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Diancie-Mega: 355-418 (116.7 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Diancie-Mega: 237-280 (33.6 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Diancie-Mega: 355-418 (49.7 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
The problem with Imposter is that almost everyone who plays the metagame on a regular basis has been preconditioned towards bending over backwards in order to not automatically lose to Imposter users, such to the extent that they now believe that because they counterbuild for Imposter on every team, that it suddenly becomes not broken. This would be fine if the way you "improofed" teams was simpler than having a highly specific combination of moves, abilities, and items on almost all of your mons, or otherwise neutering your offensive threats' capability of sweeping teams in order to have a proper switchin on your team for it, if it gets Impostered.
The main thing I've heard about Imposter
First; your calcs are wrong, imposter never uses specs.
Then, it doesn't really meets those points.
1) Chansey only runs imposter, fc and really niche stuff. It doesn't outshine everything either.
2) When it isn't imposter its typing isn't great, especially when considering MMX that is used more and more and has STAB SE moves to kill it. When it is imposter it cannot literally have a better typing than anyone else.
3) The offensive power of chansey only comes from the opponent. Impostered attacks and Metal burst are the only "direct" attacks it can run.
4) Chansey has literally just 2 roles: imposter and general wall. Many isn't 2.
5) It isn't difficult to win without imposter. Or against imposter. The only variable is the item (since you know everything else), which is removed by Koff. You'll never be surprised by imposter (item excluded), meanwhile you might be surprised by everything else.
6) Imposter doesn't have insufficient checks and counters. The very fact of building your team against it isn't different from preparing against everything else.
To anyone who reads this post, everybody's opinion should be considered if they provide enough logical backing. You should not neglect a point if they don't play the tier. I'll do my best to respond to your points with my own logic.
I disagree - It's less of an issue with the ban itself being a disagreeable concept rather than the "logic" that some people provide which provides poor representation from the pro ban, or the side that questions why it's allowed. Posts like these are fair and should be considered, but I don't think that when somebody says "Imposter is annoying and should go" that it's really fair to consider that point when it has no substance in the first place. You'll find that the majority of the arguments against Imposter eventually boil down to people not wanting to play against it - It's a proposal for convenience, not for healthiness, which I believe should be the priority when discussing a suspect.
Looking at a metagame without Imposter would definitely be an interesting idea, but I believe it's sound logic for not getting rid of it. In a metagame where you have a multitude of sets you yourself can control, this is the only set which you yourself control. If you are having difficulty facing this set, then chances are that you lose to other variants of this set as well. (For example, if the only answer to your Impostered Spooky Plate Gengar is hoping they don't have Spooky Plate, odds are you lose to Gengar anyway.) This isn't an issue with Imposter, it's an issue with the teambuilding and odds are that even if Imposter were gone, you'd still lose to this set if you neglected to prepare for it regardless of if you opted to run it or not.
It's not limiting the pool of usable Pokemon, for starters. The Pokemon on the VR are there because they have the stats, typing and inherent natural qualities to compete in the BH metagame, which is what they have over unviable Pokemon. Unviable Pokemon are unviable because they don't have the qualities to fare well in the BH meta, not because Imposter renders them unviable. In addition, there have been many Hyper Offense teams that beat Imposter naturally - While it's fair to say that Hyper Offense in itself may see a rise in viability if Imposter is gone, this is complete speculation and I'd honestly argue against it. Hyper Offense in BH has a multitude of other things holding it back - Namely Prankster Destiny Bond, Haze, and Encore, as well as Spectral Thief, Core Enforcer and opposing offensive Pokemon that you can't exactly answer assuming the worst. I'm not gonna say that Imposter isn't a concern for Hyper Offense, but it definitely isn't the only thing limiting it from flourishing in the meta. In addition, I don't believe that forcing the metagame into a drawn out state is exactly a bad thing. Requiring patience isn't for everybody, but using the argument that it makes the metagame more drawn out calls back to my point earlier on how it seems as though individuals on the pro-ban side at least partially want Imposter gone because of convenience rather than inherent brokenness. In addition, I don't believe Imposter inhibits creativity nor diversity - You can refer to my earlier points for the diversity part, and I believe that there's many creative sets in here even with the presence of Imposter. The claim that there would be more is simply speculation, because most of the Pokemon that run sets have already tried to run other "creative" sets and have other factors inhibiting them. This is already a pretty large paragraph so I'll stop here but I can build on it more if you PM me or reply to this thread.
Imposterproofing should be woven into the experience of BH. When you're playing BH, you're aiming to answer as much of the metagame as you can in your own team - This includes your sets, and as such, you should have some form of counterplay to them with or without Imposter existing. While yes, the greater bulk does limit some options of this counterplay, this isn't inherently an issue. It's simply different, which I don't believe to be a bad thing exactly. No comment on the "defensive shitfest" part, I've already stated that I believe that isn't inherently an issue, just a matter of preference versus unhealthiness. If you can provide sound reasoning as to why that's a bad thing, then sure I'll be willing to consider it, but I don't exactly see any reasoning right now. In addition, offense is a viable playstyle. I dislike anecdotal evidence, but there have been plenty of viable offensive teams which both I and many other members of the BH community have built. The pool of Pokemon that Imposterproof themselves isn't exactly limited, either - At first glance, you may be misled as to believe that Mega Gengar is the only notable example. However, Regigigas, Xerneas, Primal Kyogre, Mega Rayquaza, Mega Mewtwo Y and X, Yveltal and other Pokemon all have viable self-Imposterproof sets. I'd argue that offensive Pokemon can actually outnumber the amount of walls that can Imposterproof themselves, but that's not your point right now. I've already mentioned why there isn't a negative stigma around possible removal, simply a lack of proper justification that makes that side so negatively perceived. In additon, the reasoning that "Removing Imposter doesn't come with direct disadvantages" seems like a huge "Why not?" argument to me, so I'm just gonna ask you why? Why would you remove something that isn't broken? If you used this reasoning in any other metagame or tier, you'd be called out for it and for good reason - We (as in the BH community) decide that things need to go when they are healthy, not when we wish to look at a metagame just because it wouldn't be a bad thing.
It's an argument that checks do exist to Impostered Pokemon, even on the Pokemon that it Imposters. In additon, your latter point is complete speculation but I'll just take the time to say that stuff like Bellyburden, Contrary and other things would become better, but they're still relevant and even after an Imposter ban they would still have their fair share of answers.
More HP changes the counterplay, but it doesn't completely limit it. In any metagame, a lot of Pokemon can run viable sets which have different checks and counters. The more HP argument is answered by that, I believe. Counterplay being different from your Impostered set than when you would face your set on the ladder isn't inherently a bad thing, and it's actually not as different as you'd expect. It forces you to prepare for the metagame in a different fashion, but that isn't bad inherently. Also, Light Ball relies on speed ties, support, can't switch in and often times can be answered on already viable teams just by playing different. If you see a Pikachu at team preview, you're gonna take a solid 10 seconds to laugh at it before you adjust your gameplay differently from if it was Imposter Chansey. Light Ball isn't always an advantage nor is it unfair, either - For the reasons I have already mentioned plus the fact that it's useless versus stall and versus walls, I'm gonna have to say that I'd generally rather run Chansey for overall consistency. Thick Club is... pretty unviable and falls into the same can of worms as Light Ball for the most part.
Don't be afraid to cause conflict - Wanting clarification is fine and I'll call out anyone who tries to turn this into a huge conflict as well.
Just wanted to say that this argument wasn't made once in her post, really.
First of all, they're not requirements, but guidelines. Chansey doesn't fall into any of the criteria presented from centralization nor the first point of multidimensional and unique sets.
Of course you can't guaranteed win 1v1 versus Imposter.. If you're trying to approach facing Imposter by trying to not switch out then you're not gonna be very happy.
It's not preconditioning, it's adapting. If you refuse to prepare for a threat, then of course you're gonna lose to it and that doesn't make it overwhelming, it just means you're not playing the meta how it is, but how you want it to be. And you'd be surprised at just how inaccurate the latter part of your point here is (not in an aggressive way, though) - Having mained the meta, I can't tell you much aside from how this isn't true at all. You don't compromise any viability by running tried and true sets and you can do that while also still running a fairly standard defensive core or an offense team. I don't mean any offense here, but this point is just false to anyone who's played the meta. I don't mean to say that you shouldn't be posting because you're not a BH main, but there's a difference between that and bringing up untrue points.
If what these people said was true, it would indeed mandate a suspect test, but I feel as though most people who make those arguments don't really understand what they're talking about. I'll reserve my thoughts on an Imposterless metagame because as you mentioned, it's just pure speculation as of right now. I don't think a suspect test is really required, just a tour or so to see how BH without Imposter would be.
I'm currently on mobile since internet access on my computer is kinda spotty, being in the middle of a move. So, I'll keep this brief since I hate typing on the phone. Forgive any typos or weird wording since... phone.
Imposter is pretty centralizing, maybe overly so, but not exactly unhealthy. It's probably healthy since it keeps cheese strategies from being spammed nless the user gets countered by their own strategy. Its a rare example of that compared to most. Imposter proofing is common in BH, but hardly exclusive. Even in standard like OU you have to imposter proof to some extent less a random Ditto kicks your butt. Volt Ner said most of what else I'd say on that. I think, anyway, I'll double check later.
As for defensive meta-game, IMO, I think it's more that offensive teams lack consistent answered to opposing offensive teams in the current meta. Anti priority, mold breaker moves killing offense Unaware, and full EV making revenge KO ing even with Sash hard kinda limits offense options against a set up sweeper. Hence, defense is more consistent because they have more tools, even if some of them kinda suck for the same reasons.
I'd be happy to elaborate more if someone wants, but just be patient because I'm already wishing I didn't type this much on my phone and want to wait until I can use a keyboard again. Pain in the butt.
Imposter is pretty centralizing, maybe overly so, but not exactly unhealthy. It's probably healthy since it keeps cheese strategies from being spammed nless the user gets countered by their own strategy. Its a rare example of that compared to most. Imposter proofing is common in BH, but hardly exclusive. Even in standard like OU you have to imposter proof to some extent less a random Ditto kicks your butt. Volt Ner said most of what else I'd say on that. I think, anyway, I'll double check later.
As for defensive meta-game, IMO, I think it's more that offensive teams lack consistent answered to opposing offensive teams in the current meta. Anti priority, mold breaker moves killing offense Unaware, and full EV making revenge KO ing even with Sash hard kinda limits offense options against a set up sweeper. Hence, defense is more consistent because they have more tools, even if some of them kinda suck for the same reasons.
I'd be happy to elaborate more if someone wants, but just be patient because I'm already wishing I didn't type this much on my phone and want to wait until I can use a keyboard again. Pain in the butt.
- Inherent/Natural Qualities:
- A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them. It's far above all else, has technically infinite moves, the highest bulk in the entire metagame, and copies the stats of the most powerful threats in the metagame. The one fault here is that it doesn't have the ambiguity factor going for it.
- In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards It's neutral to hazards, has immense bulk , and steals whatever offensive capabilities it transforms into.
- Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
- Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive It can switch between roles in just a simple switch.
- It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more You can still give it moves for if it doesn't transform.
- Centralization: Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. This includes the following aspects:
- One of (or both):
- It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon or
- Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier This is more of a matter of opinion that it seems we won't be reaching an agreement upon.
- The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other I get that the handful of sweeper sets and Poison Heal are great to have, but basically saying "have these or die" is unacceptable.
- One of (or both):
That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was simply stating with examples how facing Imposter in BH is a matter beyond just fighting yourself, since there were other posts suggesting otherwise.
It's really just a matter of personal boundary here. If you go to the far end of the slippery slope you're treading on, it could theoretically be fine to let Rayquaza into OU as long as everyone starts running Weavile more often.
By all means then, explain how I'm wrong. You certainly did say it a lot, so I must be. Otherwise, it really sounds like you're just trying to justify the BH equivalent of the hypothetical all-Weavile OU metagame I mentioned above.
I can understand why going straight to a suspect wouldn't be the ideal outcome, though there isn't really much of an ideal compromise, unless you guys really committed to doing a lot more than just one of these Imposter-less tours.
Overall, it really just boils down to "Are there enough reasonable* ways to counteract Imposter to justify its allowance?", to which, I believe there are not. But since neither of us are the ultimate judge on matters like this, I will leave the answer to the leadership.
*Reasonable meaning you're not forced to run a setup that is naturally inferior to any alternatives, i.e. minimum Special Defense in order to 1/2HKO Imposter switchins
I literally quoted where she argued that, although I did reword it to make it more clear why I disagree with it but with the original quote is should be clear enough that my response was an exaggeration designed to go closer to the root of the issue, not an attempt to knock chloe or her valid questions she raised.
Again, that isn't true.
Look for numbers in the quoted text.
1) It doesn't have infinite pp. It has 20 each time it switches in. And it cannot switch in as it likes because some offensive threats can 2HKO themselves really easily (for example scarf contrary mega sceptile but a very large number exists). You might be surprised to discover that "bulk" won't save it from smart plays.
2) Chansey takes all hazards bar sticky web (fc sets don't care about speed), and it is poisoned even if it switches to copy steels or comatose. It doesn't steal "whatever", because there are many copied sets that won't function, like quick feet M-Ray, PH stuff, whatever runs judgement or unburden belly drum.
3) It has to switch twice (out and in). And it won't get to decide its role. The opponent will.
4) No "real" moves are overwhelming on imposter sets. They are extremely passive.
5) It isn't an opinion. It's a fact that it isn't difficult to win without imposter or that it lacks checks or counters. Any successful team without Imposter is a direct example of this.
6) That has nothing to do with BH.
7) Yes. There are enough reasonable ways to counteract Imposter to justify its allowance.
To be fair, Ditto is stuck with 1 Move and has low HP, risking switching into 1 powerful attack may render it dead. Chansey with Eviolite if at good HP rarely had to worry about switching into the wrong direct attack unless the opponent has already set up (at which point they failed to react with a Prankster Haze user, etc. in time). I do see your point, however and I agree it’s not just Chansey per say, but the combination that seems to be th issue.
I think rather than say Imposter should be banned, we could argue that Chansey and Eviolite + Imposter should be banned.
I think the inherent issue is Eviolite, no other Eviolite user has enough HP to perform similarly to Chansey. Literally, the next Highest HP is Munchlax at 135 base HP, just barely over half of Chansey’s base 250.
Many would still prefer Blissey or Zygarde (Stealth Rock resistance) over Munchlax for general purposes (no fear of Trick, Knock off, or switching into a sweeper with low Defenses where the Eviolite helps less than Blissey’s total HP).
I don’t think Imposter should be suspected, nor do I think Chansey with Eviolite (without Imposter) should be suspected.
I think the best approach is to confirm if the real issue is the combination of all three factors, because if the next best options (Blissey / Zygarde with Leftovers, Munchlax with Eviolite), are nowhere close to the survivability of Eviolite Imposter Chansey (which they frankly are not), then we should decide if Imposter should be prevented on Chansey.
Recall the complex : Comatose and Sleep Talk to prevent endless Scarf phasing. That was based off of multiple variable factors, not 1. Perhaps we should treat Imposter in the same vein.
After all, there are so many reasons Imposter is being discussed, and non of them involve Pikachu with Light Ball, or anything using Imposter it really just comes down to Imposter Eviolite Chansey.
If people were discussing any other users, then the ability itself would seem the issue, but it’s really the combination that makes things overwhelming.
I’m not even calling for suspecting Transform (Imprison) Eviolite Chansey, which at least requires a turn and a moveslot, making it easier to prevent (Taunt, Substitute, etc.)
You totally forgot about Scarf imposters, which are perfectly viable as well - Chansey, Blissey and Zygarde can do that all, altough Chansey is by far the best option.
Thanks to the high HP stat, they can tank hits well from non-setupped mons even without Eviolite, and unlike Eviolite Imposters, they don't have to worry about losing a speed tie, which can be game-deciding/changing sometimes.
If you face a stall team, against which the Scarf is a hindrance, you can simply switch your own imposter in against the opposing transformed imposter and click Trickeroo to get rid of it - or just switch into a predicted Knock Off. Although all three mentioned mons (and of course other high HP ones like Guzzlord or even Wobbuffet if you're crazy) can do that, Chansey is the only one which profits from an Eviolite it may obtain via Trickeroo, and as Chansey can run multiple items viably - Eviolite, Scarf or Spooky Plate are the most common ones - it becomes much more difficult to predict correctly. Choice Specs and Band might be possible items as well, to surprise the opponent and break through his imposter-proofer, but I think these are pretty unexplored - yes, there's the memey Pikachu, but that doesn't have the bulk a Chansey/Blissey/Zygarde has, even without Eviolite.
Thanks to the high HP stat, they can tank hits well from non-setupped mons even without Eviolite, and unlike Eviolite Imposters, they don't have to worry about losing a speed tie, which can be game-deciding/changing sometimes.
If you face a stall team, against which the Scarf is a hindrance, you can simply switch your own imposter in against the opposing transformed imposter and click Trickeroo to get rid of it - or just switch into a predicted Knock Off. Although all three mentioned mons (and of course other high HP ones like Guzzlord or even Wobbuffet if you're crazy) can do that, Chansey is the only one which profits from an Eviolite it may obtain via Trickeroo, and as Chansey can run multiple items viably - Eviolite, Scarf or Spooky Plate are the most common ones - it becomes much more difficult to predict correctly. Choice Specs and Band might be possible items as well, to surprise the opponent and break through his imposter-proofer, but I think these are pretty unexplored - yes, there's the memey Pikachu, but that doesn't have the bulk a Chansey/Blissey/Zygarde has, even without Eviolite.
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I acknowledged it via first mention of Ditto in OU. I don’t think people are concerned about Imposter in all forms it’s used.
I think it’s the 3 Factors combined that make it appear overshadowing at times.
Yes, I do occasionally see Scarf Imposter at times on Chansey as it can bluff Eviolite, however, my point is that if Imposter is simply stopped from being used on Eviolite Chansey, I’m sure many of the arguments against the entire use of Imposter would think “It’s not so bad after all”.
TLDR; We may as well suspect just the strongest iteration of it before we decide if it should disappear completely. This will better allow us to determine if Imposter or it’s top user is the problem. Eviolite is the determinant on Chansey’s dominance, (otherwise Blissey would be used most), so let’s first test allowing only non-Eviolite Imposters, and see if it is still too powerful.
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The Suspect on Psychic Surge has concluded with the decision to ban
History:
History:
So, I'm finally back. Moved in, have now had internet for almost 24 hours, seeing the results of a suspect I missed (okay, I could have rushed reqs in the first few days, but the Lunar Dice in Armello were calling my name), and all that other fun stuff of about two and a half weeks or so of missed posts (I don't even wanna go and try to comment on everything in the Creative Sets thread.)
So, now that I'm back, I'd like to rustle some people's jimmies and bring up a topic I feel needs examining. I brought it up in some detail, along with some other stuff, back in S/M, but things have changed, I brought up too much stuff at once, and I got drowned out by the... uhh... Stakeout discussion I think it was? I don't feel like digging backwards to find out. Anyway, one thing in particular:
Mold Breaker moves. Specifically, Sunsteel Strike, Photon Geyser, and Moongeist Beam.
"But Rumors, didn't you argue against banning Photon Geyser for the last suspect?" Yes, I hear you asking that. Yes, I did. But it was context. Banning Photon because Xtwo abused it wasn't a good arguement. And banning it for the Mold Breaker effect while ignoring other moves seemed faulty. If we're banning for the Mold Breaker effect, then we need to be fair and consider the whole spectrum. Otherwise... it'd be like banning Roost for whatever reason but leaving all the other flavors of Recover moves alone because Mega-Ray abused it but not the others, even though they're all basically the same thing.
So first, let's clarify the table here. All three moves are Base Power 100, which is pretty darn solid, to say the least. All of them are best-in-class for their moves. Sunsteel is Physical and faces competition from Iron Tail, Meteor Mash, Gear Grind, and maybe Anchor Shot. Maybe possibly just including it to be safe. Moongiest is special and faces competition from Judgement and... Shadow Ball. Photon Geyser is whatever you want it to be and faces competition either from Psystrike, Psychic, Psycho Boost on one side and Psychic Fangs on the other. All of them also completely ignore opposing abilities, which is a really, really strong effect and is the part I have a problem with.
To get it all on the ground, here's the full list of abilities these moves bypass: Battle Armor, Filter, Flash Fire, Flower Gift, Immunity (with Poison Touch, along with all other status-immune abilities), Inner Focus (with King's Rock), Leaf Guard, Marvel Scale, Motor Drive (affected by Electrify, same for other electric immunities), Shell Armor, Shield Dust, Solid Rock, Sturdy, Unaware, Volt Absorb, Multiscale, Fur Coat, Disguise, Fluffy
A bit out of order, but I copy-pastaed from Bulbapedia.
Of those, the primarily relevnt abilites are Sturdy, Unaware, and Fur Coat. Some might have other relevance to BH, such as if Electrify Volt Absorb Mega-Gengar ever makes a return. But why these three?
Sturdy: Bypassing Sturdy for free pretty much negates Shedinja's usability in the tier. It can block an attack, once, with Focus Sash, and that is it. And most meta Pokemon can run a Focus Sash to do the same thing, but can do more in response to boot. Anything can carry a mold breaker move and strike without warning, making Shedinja a gamble. I used to get really friggin' annoyed by Shedinja, but in hindsight, the Shedinja Cycle* was healthy for the meta and kept things flowing and developing. Having Shedinja viable cuts down on spam strategies, particularly set-up spam, and gives teams more options to deal with set-up sweepers.
*Basically, Shedinja is popular. Shedinja checks become popular and Shedinja use falls. Seeing Shedinja is mostly absent, specialized checks to Shedinja lose popularity. Seeing Shedinja checks have left, Shedinja storms back in to curb stomp all the stuff abusing its absence. The cycle repeats.
Unaware: Past generations, Shell Smash wasn't a particularly great move. It was good, but other options were usually better since they didn't expose you to attack. Picking between Quiver Dance, Shell Smash, and Tail Glow or Swords Dance, Shift Gear, Coil, and Shell Smash was something to really think about when team building. Now? Shell Smash, 90% of the time. Why is this? I feel its because Unaware is just getting bypassed too easily. We used to have a plethora of viable Unawares. Kyogre, Cresselia, Audino, Giratina, Lugia, Registeel... really, any defensive Pokemon could go for the role. Now? You almost always pick Mega-Gyrados. One of the once prominent offensive threats has been relegated to a defensive role not because of its stats, but purely because its the bulkiest thing that resists the Sungeist Geyser trio. Eliminating the ability to trivially bypass Unaware will give all teams more options to deal with threats. Yes, offense too. You've not grinned maniacally until you've boosted up to +6 Quiver Dance alongside your opponent, only for you to get tickled and they get one-shotted by your set-up sweeper Unaware.
Fur Coat: The most viable ability of the three currently, but its struggling. For example, Fur Coat Giratina used to be an excellent set. But everything changed when the Photon Geyser Nation attacked. Previously, you could rely on your healthy Fur Coat user, whatever it might have been, to deal with Belly Drummers if you were caught without any better options (provided you weren't weak to their moves). But now? Not even the vaunted Prankster Registeel will save you when Belly Drum Mewtwo X Mach Punches it and then Photon Geysers the rest of your team who all have Fur Coat but Mewtwo doesn't care. And this isn't even the only instance. Kartana can do similar, albeit worse since its offensive typing is the only thing keeping it in check.
Basically, the current situation is when set-up comes a knockin, your reliable options are either A) Prankster and hope they don't have a counter. B) Focus Sash and hope you don't take hazard damage or get hit by a multi-hit move and can OHKO and hope they don't have a Sash if they're at full. C) Unaware Gyarados and hope they don't have Fighting, Grass, (hi Mewtwo and Kartana!), Fairy, Electric, or Bug coverage. D) Switch in your best wall and cross your fingers. E) Revenge kill and hope they don't have a Focus Sash.
If we remove Mold Breaker moves, I feel it'd offer a healthier metagame as it'd give all team archetypes more options to handle set-up moves without actually impacting set-up itself. Set-up was healthy and strategic in Gens V and VI, but only got out of control in Gen VII and only three indirect boons were granted: Power Trip, Dark-type Prankster immunity, and Mold Breaker moves. Considering Dark-types aren't dominating the meta, even when Psychic Surge was the thing, that really only leaves one possible source. Meanwhile, it'd also give more outplay opportunities and the like, such as giving teams an out of they lose momentum to a wall breaker by packing a Shedinja while giving the wall breaker player a chance to show off their skill and outplay the Shedinja gambit to expose the opposing team. On the other hand, offensive Pokemon can still bypass abilities, but the team builder will sit and need to consider if using the ability slot and announcing its capabilities is worth sacrificing their offensive ability.
Unfortunately, Mewtwo X and offensive, physical Steel types will suffer a bit. Mewtwo X will be hit the hardest since Psychic Fangs is a pretty hefty drop while Steel-types will probably downgrade to Meteor Mash or sidegrade to Gear Grind. Mewtwo Y will shrug and go back to Psystrike, Psychic, or Psycho Boost. Ghost-types will just go harder on Judgement. However, considering the number of sets and options that become viable to add healthier and more varied counterplay that would result from those three abilities becoming much more viable, I think it's a worthwhile trade-off.
TL;DR: Mold Breaker moves severely limit options available to all team archetypes. Removing them would make more choices in both play and team building open to everyone, leading to a more diverse, interesting, and most importantly, a healthy metagame.
So, now that I'm back, I'd like to rustle some people's jimmies and bring up a topic I feel needs examining. I brought it up in some detail, along with some other stuff, back in S/M, but things have changed, I brought up too much stuff at once, and I got drowned out by the... uhh... Stakeout discussion I think it was? I don't feel like digging backwards to find out. Anyway, one thing in particular:
Mold Breaker moves. Specifically, Sunsteel Strike, Photon Geyser, and Moongeist Beam.
"But Rumors, didn't you argue against banning Photon Geyser for the last suspect?" Yes, I hear you asking that. Yes, I did. But it was context. Banning Photon because Xtwo abused it wasn't a good arguement. And banning it for the Mold Breaker effect while ignoring other moves seemed faulty. If we're banning for the Mold Breaker effect, then we need to be fair and consider the whole spectrum. Otherwise... it'd be like banning Roost for whatever reason but leaving all the other flavors of Recover moves alone because Mega-Ray abused it but not the others, even though they're all basically the same thing.
So first, let's clarify the table here. All three moves are Base Power 100, which is pretty darn solid, to say the least. All of them are best-in-class for their moves. Sunsteel is Physical and faces competition from Iron Tail, Meteor Mash, Gear Grind, and maybe Anchor Shot. Maybe possibly just including it to be safe. Moongiest is special and faces competition from Judgement and... Shadow Ball. Photon Geyser is whatever you want it to be and faces competition either from Psystrike, Psychic, Psycho Boost on one side and Psychic Fangs on the other. All of them also completely ignore opposing abilities, which is a really, really strong effect and is the part I have a problem with.
To get it all on the ground, here's the full list of abilities these moves bypass: Battle Armor, Filter, Flash Fire, Flower Gift, Immunity (with Poison Touch, along with all other status-immune abilities), Inner Focus (with King's Rock), Leaf Guard, Marvel Scale, Motor Drive (affected by Electrify, same for other electric immunities), Shell Armor, Shield Dust, Solid Rock, Sturdy, Unaware, Volt Absorb, Multiscale, Fur Coat, Disguise, Fluffy
A bit out of order, but I copy-pastaed from Bulbapedia.
Of those, the primarily relevnt abilites are Sturdy, Unaware, and Fur Coat. Some might have other relevance to BH, such as if Electrify Volt Absorb Mega-Gengar ever makes a return. But why these three?
Sturdy: Bypassing Sturdy for free pretty much negates Shedinja's usability in the tier. It can block an attack, once, with Focus Sash, and that is it. And most meta Pokemon can run a Focus Sash to do the same thing, but can do more in response to boot. Anything can carry a mold breaker move and strike without warning, making Shedinja a gamble. I used to get really friggin' annoyed by Shedinja, but in hindsight, the Shedinja Cycle* was healthy for the meta and kept things flowing and developing. Having Shedinja viable cuts down on spam strategies, particularly set-up spam, and gives teams more options to deal with set-up sweepers.
*Basically, Shedinja is popular. Shedinja checks become popular and Shedinja use falls. Seeing Shedinja is mostly absent, specialized checks to Shedinja lose popularity. Seeing Shedinja checks have left, Shedinja storms back in to curb stomp all the stuff abusing its absence. The cycle repeats.
Unaware: Past generations, Shell Smash wasn't a particularly great move. It was good, but other options were usually better since they didn't expose you to attack. Picking between Quiver Dance, Shell Smash, and Tail Glow or Swords Dance, Shift Gear, Coil, and Shell Smash was something to really think about when team building. Now? Shell Smash, 90% of the time. Why is this? I feel its because Unaware is just getting bypassed too easily. We used to have a plethora of viable Unawares. Kyogre, Cresselia, Audino, Giratina, Lugia, Registeel... really, any defensive Pokemon could go for the role. Now? You almost always pick Mega-Gyrados. One of the once prominent offensive threats has been relegated to a defensive role not because of its stats, but purely because its the bulkiest thing that resists the Sungeist Geyser trio. Eliminating the ability to trivially bypass Unaware will give all teams more options to deal with threats. Yes, offense too. You've not grinned maniacally until you've boosted up to +6 Quiver Dance alongside your opponent, only for you to get tickled and they get one-shotted by your set-up sweeper Unaware.
Fur Coat: The most viable ability of the three currently, but its struggling. For example, Fur Coat Giratina used to be an excellent set. But everything changed when the Photon Geyser Nation attacked. Previously, you could rely on your healthy Fur Coat user, whatever it might have been, to deal with Belly Drummers if you were caught without any better options (provided you weren't weak to their moves). But now? Not even the vaunted Prankster Registeel will save you when Belly Drum Mewtwo X Mach Punches it and then Photon Geysers the rest of your team who all have Fur Coat but Mewtwo doesn't care. And this isn't even the only instance. Kartana can do similar, albeit worse since its offensive typing is the only thing keeping it in check.
Basically, the current situation is when set-up comes a knockin, your reliable options are either A) Prankster and hope they don't have a counter. B) Focus Sash and hope you don't take hazard damage or get hit by a multi-hit move and can OHKO and hope they don't have a Sash if they're at full. C) Unaware Gyarados and hope they don't have Fighting, Grass, (hi Mewtwo and Kartana!), Fairy, Electric, or Bug coverage. D) Switch in your best wall and cross your fingers. E) Revenge kill and hope they don't have a Focus Sash.
If we remove Mold Breaker moves, I feel it'd offer a healthier metagame as it'd give all team archetypes more options to handle set-up moves without actually impacting set-up itself. Set-up was healthy and strategic in Gens V and VI, but only got out of control in Gen VII and only three indirect boons were granted: Power Trip, Dark-type Prankster immunity, and Mold Breaker moves. Considering Dark-types aren't dominating the meta, even when Psychic Surge was the thing, that really only leaves one possible source. Meanwhile, it'd also give more outplay opportunities and the like, such as giving teams an out of they lose momentum to a wall breaker by packing a Shedinja while giving the wall breaker player a chance to show off their skill and outplay the Shedinja gambit to expose the opposing team. On the other hand, offensive Pokemon can still bypass abilities, but the team builder will sit and need to consider if using the ability slot and announcing its capabilities is worth sacrificing their offensive ability.
Unfortunately, Mewtwo X and offensive, physical Steel types will suffer a bit. Mewtwo X will be hit the hardest since Psychic Fangs is a pretty hefty drop while Steel-types will probably downgrade to Meteor Mash or sidegrade to Gear Grind. Mewtwo Y will shrug and go back to Psystrike, Psychic, or Psycho Boost. Ghost-types will just go harder on Judgement. However, considering the number of sets and options that become viable to add healthier and more varied counterplay that would result from those three abilities becoming much more viable, I think it's a worthwhile trade-off.
TL;DR: Mold Breaker moves severely limit options available to all team archetypes. Removing them would make more choices in both play and team building open to everyone, leading to a more diverse, interesting, and most importantly, a healthy metagame.
I'm not totally against suspecting them, but have you even tried out different unaware users and other methods to deal with setup? Gyarados isn't even that viable as an Unaware user, because being weak to Volt Switch AND U-turn sucks, especially when you always have to keep it healthy if you want it to check the mons it is supposed to check. There are other much better Unaware options around, namely Zygarde, which is neutral to all "dangerous" moves and even has a good chance of living MMX's Photon Geyser after the Belly Drum to OHKO back with Spectral Thief:
+6 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 549-646 (86.3 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
There are also many other options to deal with mold breaker move abusers:
+6 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 549-646 (86.3 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
There are also many other options to deal with mold breaker move abusers:
- Kartana gets walled by Flash Fire steels, which are generally viable
- If you have a (probably scarfed) Imposter and are worried about a potential Focus Sash on the opposing mon, Rocky Helmet can help breaking this sash, Stealth Rock can do that too if you manage to get them down.
- Don't let them set up, use Spectral Thief on the turn they set up their Shell Smashes or Belly Drums. Obviously ths requires good predictions, but can really stop the opponent in his tracks. Will-O-Wisp also helps against physical attackers.
- Prankster DBond them with Aegislash, Giratina or another Prankster user which doesn't get killed by MMX's Mach Punch
- Remove their abilities. Especially if you know that the opponent doesn't have Pankster DBond and you have a scarfed Imposter Chansey/Blissey, removing a Belly Drummer's Unburden can turn the game around as now you will outspeed it and probably sweep the opponent's team entirely.
- Use revenge killers like FakeSpeed Rayquaza.
- Against physical setuppers, you can also use Intimidate over Fur Coat, as this cannot be bypassed by Sunsteel Strike or physical Photon Geyser; Intimidate Zygarde will always win against Kartana or MMY unless they pack Ice Hammer.
Hold my grapejuice..
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 139-165 (42.9 - 50.9%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo: 177-210 (37 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I don't think getting 3hko is consider being a "wall"
I've tried a large number of things, but hardly anything is reliable, especially against spam teams where you have to pray your answers don't get worn down too much. I've rewritten this post twice trying not to ramble so... I'll try to stay brief.
Trust me, I've tried quite a few things and set-up spam teams are just awful unless I overload myself on the current anti-set-up options, which weakens my team against everything else. Removing the mold breaker moves would reign that stuff in without hurting a whole lot, give everyone more options, and make such teams actually stop and think about their composition beyond "six Shell Smash users" or something like that.
Unawares: I've tried, off the top of my head, Zygarde, Giratina, Mega-Audino, Registeel, Kyogre, Ho-Oh (as an offensive user), Chansey, Cresselia, Lugia, Scizor, and Arceus. Some of them get dumped on by common set-up users without set-up, such as Zygarde and Giratina vs Diancie or Registeel vs Mewtwo for more prominent threats. Some are weak to key moves, like Audino to Sunsteel Strike, Lugia to Moongiest, or Scizor to Contrary because Fire. Some are weak to common coverage or common secondary STABs by common mold breaker move users, like Chansey and Kyogre (Xtwo and Kartana). Some have other issues, like Ho-Oh's Stealth Rock weakness and need to set Coil to get anything done. Arceus was probably my favorite since it could Spectral Thief boosts and then Boomburst back hard no matter what they did, which was stupidly handy vs Taunt users since it wasn't passive like most Unawares.
Spectral Thief: Very prediction reliant. Any set-up user worth their salt will scout it, Regigas, Arceus, and other, more niche set-up ignore it. And many defensive users like Maudino just are not threatening even if they spam it, pretty much being a momentum drain if you're not stealing boosts. You also have to worry about the Pokemon stealing back. Some offensive Pokemon run Spectral Thief themselves. It also flounders completely on its own if they get you in a bad spot, like getting their Shell Smash Pixelate Diancie in vs your Spectral Thief Giratina, even if you have a thieving Registeel in reserve.
Intimidate and Burns: Neat, but it's better vs wall breakers. It just slows some set-up. Special attackers ignore it and Belly Drum always maxes attack, even if they're at -6 when they use it. They can also just switch out to try againor, if they get going, you have to switch out to apply it. It also backfires vs Contrary. Burn faces similar issues, but also different, like Misty Surge, clerics, and Pokemon like Primal Groudon and Mega Blaziken.
Fakespeed and other priority: Dazzling. Dark types shut down Prankster. Also full EV means it fails to KO certain threats. Luckily people don't spam King's Shield as hard as they used to.
Revenge KOing and D.Bonding: These are never ideal strategies and they should be last resorts, not first options. They work decently well against balance teams and stuff, but... you can only revenge KO or Destiny Bond so many times against offensive and set-up spam teams.
Ability removal: Kinda helps depending on the opposing set. Though hitting Core Enforcer on a Belly Drummed Kartana won't stop it from OHKOing anything slower as is and, depending on your team, removing the ability might not even help. Like, if you have no priority, it won't matter if you remove Dazzling from Ytwo before it Photon Geysers your face. Also, Diancie and Xerneas scoff at Core Enforcer. Non-Enforcing removal each has their own problems and are all stopped by Taunt.
Whirlwind and other shuffling: You didn't mention it, but its effective at denying momentum, including set-up. Problem is, it just stalls for time if you can't get hazards up or if you can't seize momentum with it somehow.
Perish Song: Also unmentioned. It's a hard stop to just about anything, but... that's two-three turns, depending on if they wanna off themselves or not, that you have to withstand against a potential rampage. Much easier said than done, especially if you don't have an extremely strong defensive core.
Spectral Thief: Very prediction reliant. Any set-up user worth their salt will scout it, Regigas, Arceus, and other, more niche set-up ignore it. And many defensive users like Maudino just are not threatening even if they spam it, pretty much being a momentum drain if you're not stealing boosts. You also have to worry about the Pokemon stealing back. Some offensive Pokemon run Spectral Thief themselves. It also flounders completely on its own if they get you in a bad spot, like getting their Shell Smash Pixelate Diancie in vs your Spectral Thief Giratina, even if you have a thieving Registeel in reserve.
Intimidate and Burns: Neat, but it's better vs wall breakers. It just slows some set-up. Special attackers ignore it and Belly Drum always maxes attack, even if they're at -6 when they use it. They can also just switch out to try againor, if they get going, you have to switch out to apply it. It also backfires vs Contrary. Burn faces similar issues, but also different, like Misty Surge, clerics, and Pokemon like Primal Groudon and Mega Blaziken.
Fakespeed and other priority: Dazzling. Dark types shut down Prankster. Also full EV means it fails to KO certain threats. Luckily people don't spam King's Shield as hard as they used to.
Revenge KOing and D.Bonding: These are never ideal strategies and they should be last resorts, not first options. They work decently well against balance teams and stuff, but... you can only revenge KO or Destiny Bond so many times against offensive and set-up spam teams.
Ability removal: Kinda helps depending on the opposing set. Though hitting Core Enforcer on a Belly Drummed Kartana won't stop it from OHKOing anything slower as is and, depending on your team, removing the ability might not even help. Like, if you have no priority, it won't matter if you remove Dazzling from Ytwo before it Photon Geysers your face. Also, Diancie and Xerneas scoff at Core Enforcer. Non-Enforcing removal each has their own problems and are all stopped by Taunt.
Whirlwind and other shuffling: You didn't mention it, but its effective at denying momentum, including set-up. Problem is, it just stalls for time if you can't get hazards up or if you can't seize momentum with it somehow.
Perish Song: Also unmentioned. It's a hard stop to just about anything, but... that's two-three turns, depending on if they wanna off themselves or not, that you have to withstand against a potential rampage. Much easier said than done, especially if you don't have an extremely strong defensive core.
Trust me, I've tried quite a few things and set-up spam teams are just awful unless I overload myself on the current anti-set-up options, which weakens my team against everything else. Removing the mold breaker moves would reign that stuff in without hurting a whole lot, give everyone more options, and make such teams actually stop and think about their composition beyond "six Shell Smash users" or something like that.
It may help to try Unaware Dialga. It is weak to only Fighting and Ground Types, which, while not uncommon, can be mitigated by its good defenses to an extent. Further it’s Steel Typing lends itself many resistance like Flying, Rock, Normal, and Psychic, while being immune to Toxic, and it’s secondary Typing giving it STAB on Core Enforcer.
With Groudon being the only Ground type that packs Precipice Blades (Zygarde packs Thousand Waves or Arrows for PP and consistency), and MMX being the only common Fighting type period (Pheromosa is more like an Honorable Mention), Dialga will rarely be facing power STAB moves it is weak too. Plus resistances to Electric, Water, Grass, and Steel only help.
I would consider giving it some support with moves like Spectral Thief, Shore Up, Core Enforcer, and Imprison. You will be surprised by its own longevity, making it able to steal boosts, Disable abilities, and become Imposter proof. Plus, what foe doesn’t carry at least a couple Spectral Thief, Shore Up, or Core Enforcer. Suddenly they cannot heal or disable your ability, nor can they take the boosts you stole. It’s can be so frustrating I almost feel bad when I surprise them with Imprison. Dialga is durable, so it won’t switch our, and they cannot force you out.
It also doesn’t hurt that it resists Photon Geyser, and Sunsteel Strike.
If you need to conserve moveslots, Whirlwind (bypass Substitute and not worry about type immunity), Dragon Tail or Circle Throw negates the need for Spectral Thief, Core Enforcer and Imprison on one set. You could therefore try Shore Up, Whirlwind, Knock Off, Nuzzle.
Your goal is to disarm them from their items, Paralyze them to alleviate their speed advantage, and send the foe on their way. Nuzzle also lets you heal before they strike a second time since you aren’t waiting to go second.
Nuzzle can frustrate sooo many foes. It’s almost mean, but sounds so cute!
Safety Goggles are useful, but if you are like me and pack Misty Terrain (first set) or Electric Terrain (second), you can save yourself the trouble and use Leftovers.
Now you won’t be “Unaware” of the potential an Unaware Dialga brings. :)
With Groudon being the only Ground type that packs Precipice Blades (Zygarde packs Thousand Waves or Arrows for PP and consistency), and MMX being the only common Fighting type period (Pheromosa is more like an Honorable Mention), Dialga will rarely be facing power STAB moves it is weak too. Plus resistances to Electric, Water, Grass, and Steel only help.
I would consider giving it some support with moves like Spectral Thief, Shore Up, Core Enforcer, and Imprison. You will be surprised by its own longevity, making it able to steal boosts, Disable abilities, and become Imposter proof. Plus, what foe doesn’t carry at least a couple Spectral Thief, Shore Up, or Core Enforcer. Suddenly they cannot heal or disable your ability, nor can they take the boosts you stole. It’s can be so frustrating I almost feel bad when I surprise them with Imprison. Dialga is durable, so it won’t switch our, and they cannot force you out.
It also doesn’t hurt that it resists Photon Geyser, and Sunsteel Strike.
If you need to conserve moveslots, Whirlwind (bypass Substitute and not worry about type immunity), Dragon Tail or Circle Throw negates the need for Spectral Thief, Core Enforcer and Imprison on one set. You could therefore try Shore Up, Whirlwind, Knock Off, Nuzzle.
Your goal is to disarm them from their items, Paralyze them to alleviate their speed advantage, and send the foe on their way. Nuzzle also lets you heal before they strike a second time since you aren’t waiting to go second.
Nuzzle can frustrate sooo many foes. It’s almost mean, but sounds so cute!
Safety Goggles are useful, but if you are like me and pack Misty Terrain (first set) or Electric Terrain (second), you can save yourself the trouble and use Leftovers.
Now you won’t be “Unaware” of the potential an Unaware Dialga brings. :)
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But not being weak to V-Create is just as important for Steel Types. Since you cannot have Flash Fire and Unaware at once Dialga serves to take more hits. Who cares about resisting Boomburst if you take more from a Super Effective V-Create?
Rayquaza, a common -ate user which Dialga does resist, carries V-Create often.
Plus, why would we bother using Unaware users against -ate users? He also listed Arceus as an Unaware user, and that has no -ate resistances at all. Dialga only has 1 more Weakness than it, while packing an immunity to Sandstorm, Toxic, and a resistance to Stealth Rocks, not to mention many more resistances. Imprison makes up for the fact it isn’t a Normal Type, and therefore it still stops Spectral Thief.
If we use Unaware we should stick to stopping setup moves, so yeah Registeel can double-down as a Resist to -ate and also pack Unaware to stop other common Set up users, but V-Create makes it moot... Plus there is also Galvanize, while other Steels do not resist, while Dialga does.
I completely see your point, but I think we can use a separate Pokémon for -ate users, and just use Dialga for set up threats.
If DFS = Dragon, Fairy, Steel, count Dialga as a Dragon, and you can still add another Steel Type like Celesteelia which won’t double its Fighting or Ground weaknesses (except Thousand Arrows).
It actually serves as a great defensive Dragon because it’s Ice, Fairy, and Dragon weaknesses are gone.
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