*1). “Shell Smash with White Herb does lose to Imposter.”
But that is beside my point, which was that anything else will not be able to KO as easily bc your not giving up your Defenses (due to White Herb), while Unburden is about giving up 25% HP after Sitrus Berry. I didn’t quote the specific point about surviving Priority when I replied to Mamp which I see is why you are confused. I should have broken it down like I did for the specific passage I quoted from SL42.
My first point you mentioned, was actually specific in reply to the final statement in Mamp’s post:
the main difference between these and things like simple shell smash is that unburden drum is imposterproof and far better against priority
I was disagreeing about Priority, not about whether it was Imposterproof. I thought it would have been clear bc I mentioned White Herb specifically as the advantage in staying just as defensively bulky after setting up as before the Shell Smash, which was at the beginning of my post.
I figured it was clear bc I said -
I think my comparison with Simple Smash was with White Herb, which means that compared to Belly Drum, you are able to take more hits
*1B). “Surprise factor is something that can be argued for every offensive mon, this is BH.”
I do disagree with how surprise factor can be argued for “every” offensive Mon, especially on higher levels of ladder play bc people are more focused on what is needed and less likely to take risks bc Imposter can lead and scout many unpredictable sets anyways.
Regardless, you misinterpreted my point about unpredictability. I wasn’t saying Kartana cannot run random sets, I was saying that Tyranitar-Mega’s Set won’t be obvious in the Team Preview. Tar can run PHeal,m, Sandstream, etc. which are sets that Kartana wouldn’t have a reason to run, and it has less balanced stats so it cannot be used defensively.
So, my point on surprise factors was not on the specific set’s random coverage moves, but on what Pokémon are going to be the set up Pokémon, and how Shell Smash fits on more Pokémon than Belly Drum (I.e. Special and Mixed Attackers), which I mentioned in my post.
Afterall, good Pokémon can make a difference in regards to the number of viable Shell Smashers versus Belly Drummers- this is key due to Team Preview.
If I see a Kartana on the foe’s Team Preview, I play as if I know it is Belly Drum bc it rarely has more than 2 viable sets (The other being Steelworker), and it’s safer to assume it is Belly Drum than to believe it’s another set and lose bc I underestimated it.
TLDR- Belly Drum is a more predictable move bc if the foe doesn’t have Kartana, or Dusk-Mane, it is less likely they have it at all; Shell Smash can be more of a surprise bc more Pokémon can pull it off and you cannot tell based on Team Preview, especially as some Pokémon like Tyranitar-Mega have so many viable sets that the versatility of the Pokémon also makes it a surprise factor, bc even if it uses a standard set, you cannot know that right away. Kartana can’t be justified for as many roles as Tyranitar-Mega, so if you have to fit Kartana on a team it won’t be because of a defensive set, it will be for its Steel Heavy Offensive coverage, with Unburden being the most useful of its own set list for most teams.
*2). “You are going to tell me that Simple Smash Kartana should be used over BellyBurden Kartana and that Simple Smash Dusk-Mane is better than BellyBurden Dusk-Mane.”
I never said that Pokémon who can use Unburden are better with Shell Smash, I acknowledged a few key advantages (Bulk, and re-useability), but I don’t think it will strictly be better for Kartana to use Shell Smash.
*2B). “Re-usability is non-existent because once someone knows your set they are never letting you setup. Your White Herb is also one-use.
The advantage is doing less damage and losing Imposter.”
While White Herb is also one use, it doesn’t impact the Ability, or the set up sweeping. If it can survive the turn it sets up, White Herb isn’t needed. It’s a safeguard, but not a requirement. Whereas using up the item is an actual requirement for Unburden.
As for doing less damage, that is true for Sunsteel Strike when omitting certain attacks that would benefit from boosts, and like I mentioned in my last post, regardless of that, Mixed Sweepers can use Shell Smash.
As for you omitting certain moves, I am specifically referring to Power Trip, which I mentioned in my prior post, as Power Trip Tyranitar would only use Sunsteel Strike for Unaware Dark resists, and Shedinja. Having a + 4 (which means X 3) 260 Base Power Trip = 780 Base power (WITHOUT STAB) is much stronger than a 150 (with STAB) + 6 (which means 4 X) 600 Base power Sunsteel Strike. And mind you, this is not including STAB on Power Trip.
If comparing Simple Shell Smash used on Tyranitar-Mega vs STAB Sunsteel Strike Belly Drum on even a
Fur Coat Pokemon let’s see which does more damage (Arceus is used for easy comparison, not bc it is a good Fur Coat User):
+6 252+ Atk Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 585-688 (131.7 - 154.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 525-618 (118.2 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def
Fur Coat Arceus: 528-622 (118.9 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tyranitar-Mega outdamages Dusk-Mane, and that means against most anything lacking Fur Coat, Power Trip is literally over double the damage of Sunsteel Strike from Dusk-Mane. Arceus doesn’t have Fur Coat listed in the Sunsteel Strike Calcs bc the ability is ignored, but it is listed for Power Trip bc I made it that ability to show the power scale.
As for the rest your 2nd point, I still disagree, and here is why:
For Unburden, if you have Kartana out and they switch to Prankster on the turn you have Belly Drummed, which is something most people would do bc Kartana is more predictable, then they will Haze or Topsy Turvy when you try to Attack, and now you wasted Belly Drum bc Unburden won’t be usable after you switch out.
Shell Smashers can switch out and in again, and while losing White Herb is not ideal, their main goal can still be to outspeed most things thanks to the Speed Boost. As for Unburden, Kartana has to be naturally faster since it doesn’t have any form of a Speed Boost once Unburden is gone, and that’s if it can safely Belly Drum a second time down to 25%.
Another disadvantage is the fact that Entrainment, Core Enforcer and others can happen at the wrong moment for Unburden users. Entrainment can happen on the switch in, and Core Enforcer can occur even if the foe doesn’t have Prankster, say they use it on your Belly Drum, allowing them to remove your Speed advantage, and then send in something faster next turn.
Also, getting Tricked, and Knocked Off can be another disadvantage on an Unburden user’s switch in. Especially as Dusk-Mane is weak to Knock Off, and even without knowing its ability, will naturally attract the move even from things like Mewtwo-Mega-X.
Regardless, Shell Smash relies solely on the move, not the ability or even the item. If a Shell Smash gets Entrained, or Knocked Off on the switch in, you can be sure the Shell Smasher can still be used.
*3). “You gonna tell me that BellyBurden loses to Unaware now.”
I actually never said Unburden Belly Drummers lose to Unaware. You literally quoted me simply saying that Simple Shell Smashers can go thru Unaware with Power Trip...
I never said Sunsteel Unburden couldn’t do the same...
In fact, based on your quote of my post, I even mention Sunsteel on Shell Smash Tyranitar-Mega specifically for Unaware users:
“Simple Smash doesn’t lose to Unaware because of Power Trip, unless they also resist Dark, such as the aforementioned Tyranitar-Mega, which is immune to Prankster like Topsy Turvey, Encore, etc., plus what is stopping certain users from packing a Moldy move as well? Shell Smash Tyranitar can pack Sunsteel, to handle the Unaware Fairies and Shedinja that feel safe vs Power Trip.”
So if the only 2 Belly Drummers we are focusing on pack Sunsteel Strike, clearly I know they bypass Unaware.
*3B). “Prankster Haze still beats you and no one would use any other Prank move on a Dark type.
Its Topsy-Turvy not Topsy Turvey
Having less Prankster hard-stops to sweeping, regardless of my spelling, is another advantage to having Power Trip Tyranitar-Mega. While Giratina, uses Haze, some Pokémon like Prankster Registeel use Encore, and Topysy Turvey as do others like Aegislash (Topsy Turvey). Seriously, if they don’t have Haze, they better have Destiny Bond, and even then they lost something bc you guaranteed a kill, Unburden doesn’t typically use Tyranitar-Mega, and even if it did, Power Trip on Simple Shell Smash has much higher Base power.
3C). “Unaware Fairies are not a thing.”
Unaware Audino-Mega is used by myself and many people I have played against. It cannot be Core Enforcer’d, cannot be hit by Moongeist Beam, and has the ability to slow pivot, with matching defenses to boot.
They are a thing in Mega-Audino, and one of the most common abilities I see anyone else even use Audino-Mega for, period.
*4). “Self-quoted Setpedia point”
Take it up with the Setpedia creators.
*5)."most variants of belly drum you've discussed aren't really relevant: the specific sets that sl42 is talking about are belly drum + unburden steels, particularly kartana and dusk-mane. " - MAMP, literally the response post right before your post. Please read.”
I did read that, and that is why I said Belly Drum is still dangerous, and I said “especially” on Slaking and Heracross-Mega, while still including the others. Afterall, I was replying to the point that Prankster is the only counter option that can be used to stop Belly Drum Unburden, but my point was that it can be handled by other means.
That’s why I repeatedly cited the Priority as a counter measure including Triage Ray against Kartana.
You took my quote without reviewing the full context which reads as-
“Anyways, I totally agree that Belly Drum is dangerous, but I wanted to point out that there are methods of blocking it besides Prankster, especially on stuff like Triage Heracross-Mega and Dazzling Slaking which can be blocked by Dazzling.
Plus for Priority, since Kartana can be KOed by Triage Rayquaza Oblivion Wing, at near perfect health, even if Kartana had Extreme Speed it would still lose, let alone if it didn’t have any Priority at all:
252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 320-376 (99.3 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
And that’s without even using a Modest Nature, and before any setup move on Rayquaza’s part, and without having to wait for Belly Drum to reduce Kartana to 75% after Sitrus Berry”
Since your next point was in agreement with my Priority counter measure, which is what followed, and because my points are connected, that would mean that I understand that I am discussing all Belly Drummers, and simply mentioned that Non-Unburden users (Heracross and Slaking) are countered by Dazzling, in addition to what normally counters the Unburden Belly Drummers. *Please be fair and notice that my points are connected, I.e. the part you agreed with.*
*6). “Because everyone sets up on something they can't threaten out and always carries Spectral or Core.”
You missed my point. My point was that a single Pokémon can discourage any Dusk-Mane and Kartana Unburden user from coming in, bc it will likely pack Spectral Thief and/or Core Enforcer if it doesn’t at least have Haze. TLDR- Giratina is an Unburden deterrent regardless of its ability bc of its natural bulk, and moves, as both moves have good overall utility, gains STAB, and an additional boost from Grisceous Orb which is used to block Trick and Knock Off effects.
Other Prankster users like Zygarde-Complete may end up just being RegenVest, but Giratina can likely deter with most of its entire set list, regardless of which variant is used.
And you said earlier that Shell Smash wouldn’t be re-usable when the foe knows your set, but Giratina using Haze doesn’t necessarily save it from a Smasher bc the Smasher could be Gengar-Mega which can still threaten with STAB moves, while Dusk-Mane and Kartana have to switch out from Giratina if it comes in in the turn it sets up.
*7). “Simple Smash is not more versatile, not less predictable, is also one use, and loses to Imposter.”
It is more versatile bc Special Sweepers, Mixed Sweepers, and Physical Sweepers can use it, while Belly Drum Unburden is only, emphasized by Mamp and Sl42, used by physical Steel-Types.
Why would you say that? It is literally more versatile in what moves can be benefited by it, the number of Pokémon with Special Attack as their primary offense, and anything that has low speed that can triple, not just double it.
Correction: White Herb is one use; Shell Smash is not one use.
Shell Smash with White Herb can lose to Imposter, but as I mentioned with Dusk-Mane and Gengar-Mega; they can be self-Improof if they don’t use White Herb.
Heck, if you fear Priority, or Imposter in the same set, you could even use Focus Sash, and now it can be self-Improof and survive a Priority move at - 2 Def and - 2 SpD.
———————
*8). “Of all the great abilities you can run on Smash Gar you suggest Simple which adds nothing and rather makes it so you cannot run Poison STAB reliably. 10/10 job.”
It adds offense, and what does Poison cover exactly? Boomburst does more than Sludge Wave and Sludge Bomb, and the only thing STAB Posion does is hit Sceptile-Mega which is KOed after Shell Smash regardless unless it has Focus Sash, and Fairies harder, which you mentioned don’t pack Unaware and won’t survive a Boomburst from +4 Shell Smash
+4 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Audino-Mega: 376-443 (91.7 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
The only other Fairies are Xerneas, Diancie-Mega and Magearna which are all hit harder by its STAB Ghost attacks anyways.
Boomburst also helps it hit things like Unaware Muk-Alolan, and Poison Healers which are not adversely affected by the Poison chance of its Poison STAB, such as PHeal Zygarde.
