Balanced Hackmons Viability Ranking

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OM

It was so easy to be rational, wasn't it?
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Why did Swadloon come along tho as a spore user though? I might run Brave Bird on all GALE WINGS users I have. (Also putting Gale Wings on any flying-type with only flying-type moves is also pretty fun to do :P)
First of all; Dragon ascent > Brave bird. Second of all, Oblivion wing on gale wings sets goes perfect together.
 
First of all; Dragon ascent > Brave bird. Second of all, Oblivion wing on gale wings sets goes perfect together.
I've run Oblivion Wing (Recovery), Brave Bird, Dragon Ascent (both for strong damage, with Oblivion wing healing off of the damage that Brave Bird causes to the user), and Aeroblast (For Strong Special Damage on Special Walls) ON ONE SET (With Gale Wings and a Flying-Type Pokemon with all of the previous things mentioned for additional power) and it actually works out really well, as long as whoever is being attacked doesn't resist all the Flying-Type spam, although I only use this on one Pokemon, not more than one, when I might need things like Mold Breaker for Sturdy Shedinja or something that resists the -ates currently (such as Registeel) for all the powerful -ate users like Mega Rayquaza and Mega Diancie. Also what would be a powerful Refrigerate user in BH currently?
 

OM

It was so easy to be rational, wasn't it?
is a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
I've run Oblivion Wing (Recovery), Brave Bird, Dragon Ascent (both for strong damage, with Oblivion wing healing off of the damage that Brave Bird causes to the user), and Aeroblast (For Strong Special Damage on Special Walls) ON ONE SET (With Gale Wings and a Flying-Type Pokemon with all of the previous things mentioned for additional power) and it actually works out really well, as long as whoever is being attacked doesn't resist all the Flying-Type spam, although I only use this on one Pokemon, not more than one, when I might need things like Mold Breaker for Sturdy Shedinja or something that resists the -ates currently (such as Registeel) for all the powerful -ate users like Mega Rayquaza and Mega Diancie. Also what would be a powerful Refrigerate user in BH currently?
Kyurem-Black or MMX i believe
 

dragonite drake

i go by zanglooser on ps
guys. i recomend changes:
ho-oh (C->A+). it gets massive access to dragon accesnt and v-creat stab. with the ability contrary. teach it sub and chansey no longer stands a chance.

ferrot(unranked->A). excelent stall. the only reason it wasnt uber because of x4 fire weakness. if you give it flash fire it has only weakness fight! it can run a variety of stall from there. one might say that why not use lugia? well... the typing! it has almost no weakness!

ray-mega (s->A-). this mon is easily nocked out by refrigirate users such as black kyuerem. it has tiny defenses and focus sash doesnt help due to fakeout.while it is a great fakeout espeed boom buster, kye black is better.

kyeu black (B->S) already told why it should replace ray

mewtwo-mega-x (A+->S) it gets a variety of roles. commonly given refrigerate which COUNTERS ray(it outspeeds as well). other stratergies might involve adaptability, and its average typing again gives it atvantage over ray.

this is my first post so go easy in the feedbacks!
 
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Josh

=P
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feedbacks: i feel like youre baiting, but if youre not, lurk more before posting

nomming a HUGE change such as c- to a+ is generally a terrible idea, same with something ridiculous like unranked to a. if youre nomming something to s like the 2 noms you did, you should have much longer explanations and ideally replays/calcs/proof of some kind. not random shit like nomming the best mon in the tier to drop to a- because one ability checks it. please read more and gain more experience before nomming stuff.
 
I'll bite.


Ho-Oh: Fire/Flying is completely shut down by stuff like Regirock and T-Tar. Giratina effectively walls Contrary sets with nearly any ability since Ho-Oh cannot boost its power with Superpower. Eviolite Imposter should be able to live a hit and Skill Swap, shutting down a subbed Ho-Oh in its tracks. It also lacks the raw offensive power to bypass some Unawares. Its Aerilate sets are significantly weaker than Mega-Rays, which its main niche of having a STAB-method of bypassing Registeel and Aegislash and also being bulkier. Its insane weakness to Stealth Rocks mandates support from a defogger or spinner or requires using Magic Guard.


Ferrothorn: It lacks raw stats and it considered outclassed by Mega-Venusaur as a Grass-type and Registeel/Aegislash as a Steel-type for a reason. It's utterly destroyed by Mega-Ray despite not being weak to Flying. Besides, typing doesn't matter when you struggle to take neutral hits anyway. Ferro does have some niche uses that could potentially justify a D-rating, but no higher.


Mega-Ray: Its offensive capabilities pretty much define what is and isn't viable as a defensive Pokemon right now. Seriously, there's nothing more to be said here.


Kyu-B: Ray Boombursts better, period. Kyu-B also only checks Ray since it struggles to switch into Boomburst. Since Kyu-B cannot effectively run mixed sets, its force to physical, which means Fur Coat users and stuff shut it down easily. Its powerful, sure, but the main reason to use it over Diancie and Ray are bulk and typing. Otherwise, those are better -ates.


Xtwo: Mewtwo pretty much needs to run a Protean set so as to not be demolished by Diancie and Ray. Fridge-two is weaker than Kyu-B at it and, again, only checks Ray and doesn't even do that vs Diancie. And only if Ray doesn't have a usable Fake Out on that turn. All non-Protean sets are either checked or countered by Ray and Diancie. Also, Fighting is a rather bad typing in the current mega, unless you're Gengar.
 
I'll bite.


Ho-Oh: Fire/Flying is completely shut down by stuff like Regirock and T-Tar. Giratina effectively walls Contrary sets with nearly any ability since Ho-Oh cannot boost its power with Superpower. Eviolite Imposter should be able to live a hit and Skill Swap, shutting down a subbed Ho-Oh in its tracks. It also lacks the raw offensive power to bypass some Unawares. Its Aerilate sets are significantly weaker than Mega-Rays, which its main niche of having a STAB-method of bypassing Registeel and Aegislash and also being bulkier. Its insane weakness to Stealth Rocks mandates support from a defogger or spinner or requires using Magic Guard.


Ferrothorn: It lacks raw stats and it considered outclassed by Mega-Venusaur as a Grass-type and Registeel/Aegislash as a Steel-type for a reason. It's utterly destroyed by Mega-Ray despite not being weak to Flying. Besides, typing doesn't matter when you struggle to take neutral hits anyway. Ferro does have some niche uses that could potentially justify a D-rating, but no higher.


Mega-Ray: Its offensive capabilities pretty much define what is and isn't viable as a defensive Pokemon right now. Seriously, there's nothing more to be said here.


Kyu-B: Ray Boombursts better, period. Kyu-B also only checks Ray since it struggles to switch into Boomburst. Since Kyu-B cannot effectively run mixed sets, its force to physical, which means Fur Coat users and stuff shut it down easily. Its powerful, sure, but the main reason to use it over Diancie and Ray are bulk and typing. Otherwise, those are better -ates.


Xtwo: Mewtwo pretty much needs to run a Protean set so as to not be demolished by Diancie and Ray. Fridge-two is weaker than Kyu-B at it and, again, only checks Ray and doesn't even do that vs Diancie. And only if Ray doesn't have a usable Fake Out on that turn. All non-Protean sets are either checked or countered by Ray and Diancie. Also, Fighting is a rather bad typing in the current mega, unless you're Gengar.
I strongly disagree with fighting being a bad typing in the current meta. Otherwise i agree with everything else. Mega Ray's Tail Glow Gale wings are also significant and make it much more meta defining then Kyu-B.
 
While I do think Ho-oh should be raised a little bit since it's actually a decent mon on balance that can soft check protean mewtwo, I think A+ is too high especially from C. Also an imposter can just pp stall you out of 20 pp if it switches in without a sub up or if it has lucky punch, in which case it beats you.

Ferrothorn is not a good mon at all. The power difference between OU and BH is huge; from the raw stats, abilities and coverage. While it does only have 1 weakness, ferrothorn will still struggle from neutral hits from the likes of mewtwo, gengar and rayquaza.

"omg mewtwo y gets OHKOd by choice band tough claws mega horn weedle, it can run sash but it doesn't matter because weedle can run quick attack, so I nominate mewtwo to go down to B" these types of argument never works. Just because something can't beat another thing doesn't mean it is bad. Rayquaza is faster than kyurem, so in a 1v1 situation, rayquaza wins with fake speed anyways. Also, since when is 105/100/100 tiny?

While kyub is underused compared to mega rayquaza and diancie, I think it is fine where it is. Kyu b is almost always physical unlike rayquaza, which is able to spam aerilate boombursts from its ridiculous 180 base special attack, alongside with 180 attack to spam fake speeds which destroys anything that doesn't resist it. That's the only reason keeping it behind really, ray is able to break physical walls with its boombursts.


Mewtwo X's most popular set is protean. Refrigerate isn't bad, per say, but protean gives mewtwo much more damage output and allows it to also beat ray 1v1 with king shield + ice beam/draco meteor/moonblast whatever. Also if you bring in a mewtwo x into a rayquaza via slow u-turn, any competent player should suspect refrigerate because unless it is refrigerate you would be stupid to bring in a mewtwo into a rayquaza (unless you are below 1200 on the ladder, that part of the ladder is insane)
 
I strongly disagree with fighting being a bad typing in the current meta. Otherwise i agree with everything else. Mega Ray's Tail Glow Gale wings are also significant and make it much more meta defining then Kyu-B.
Offensively, what does Fighting cover that Fire or Ground doesn't? The only things I can think of are SE hits on Chansey, Gyrados-M, Gigas, Kyurem, and really killing T-Tar hard. And even then, without Contrary, physical Fighting is self-harmful or weight dependent and, specially, you have Aura Sphere, Focus Miss, and Secret Sword... the last of which is actually good, hence why Gengar likes it.

Defensively... what does Fighting block that's relevant?



Rayquaza is faster than kyurem, so in a 1v1 situation, rayquaza wins with fake speed anyways.)

Actually...

4 SpA Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 358-423 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 217-256 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

-2 252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-B Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Rayquaza: 508-604 (144.7 - 172%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Standard Fridge Kyu-B checks standard Aerilate Mega-Ray under normal battle conditions even if Ray runs King's Shield. Kyu-B can't manually switch in except on predicted King's Shield but, once it's in, it wins. Especially if Kyu-B runs KS too. However, it does lose 1v1 vs Diancie except under unusual circumstances.

Not arguing to support Ledian here, despite having written the Kyu-B analysis, since, despite being quite powerful, it nor Kyu-W are as splashable as Mega-Diancie or Mega-Ray.
 
Ah, I didn't know kyub runs HP since I never use it, I though they would run max attack max speed, and this was the calc I used

252 Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 262-309 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 130-154 (33.2 - 39.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
 
Should M Sawmpert still be ranked? Discussion on it kinda died but I thought there was a consensus for something around C for it
 
Offensively, what does Fighting cover that Fire or Ground doesn't? The only things I can think of are SE hits on Chansey, Gyrados-M, Gigas, Kyurem, and really killing T-Tar hard. And even then, without Contrary, physical Fighting is self-harmful or weight dependent and, specially, you have Aura Sphere, Focus Miss, and Secret Sword... the last of which is actually good, hence why Gengar likes it.

Defensively... what does Fighting block that's relevant?
Generally, fighting has very strong neutral hit potential and if combined with scrappy, it will hit stuff like aegislash and gira extremely hard. And as ability wise, fire and ground are typings where people prepare for, fighting has slight edge as coverage as people rarely prepare for it. registeel specially hates suddenly seeing aura sphere or close combat suddenly coming out of a mon it expected v-create or magma storm from, for exsample.

Granted, defensivly it sucks and its overall as a typing, really hard to get proper use out of in the current meta.
But it still is powerful offensive typing when used correctly and its rarely prepared for, just give scrappy mmx a shot and be surprised.

Should M Sawmpert still be ranked? Discussion on it kinda died but I thought there was a consensus for something around C for it
It's a solid mon but people seemed to have forgot about it, and I really think it should be atleast in the C due of its STAB power with thousand arrows alone being powerful neutral hitting softening force.
It still has its faults like the speed
 
I've been giving it some thought, and I think that Ho-oh needs to be higher than its current residency in C. While the focus with Ho-oh is often the fact that it can run Magic Guard to override its otherwise horrendous SR weakness and abuse STAB Flare Blitz/Brave Bird, its excellent special bulk and surprisingly useful defensive typing (notably, it resists Secret Sword) are oft overlooked. Specifically, Ho-oh has a defensive ability which most Pokemon in BH would die for: barring unusual lure sets, it can wall special Protean and other users of the classic Spooky Judgment/Secret Sword combination. Not check, not tank, wall.

With 248/60 investment on Ho-oh, Protean Mewtwo-Mega-Y cannot 2HKO with anything bar the rare Psystrike or Boomburst or the exceedingly rare Steam Eruption. Additionally, this also allows it to switch in on and kill Shell Smash Gengar-Mega lacking Spore. Checking Diancie-Mega and some other offensive threats is another big plus. Furthermore, with the remaining 200 EVs in attack and an Adamant nature Ho-oh packs quite the punch. The focus, however, should remain on its defensive capabilities, not its offensive power, as it unfortunately comes up short against the omnipresent Giratina. Some sort of lure set is likely possible to mitigate this weakness, but I haven't done much research. Perhaps a Trick set or something of that nature, but I digress. The point is that Ho-oh is most definitely at a higher level of viability than its current ranking gives it credit for, and as such I believe that it should be higher. Maybe B-?
 
Is Pikachu worth a rank? I've never tried it, and I guess Chansey severely outclasses it as a Imposter, but does Light Ball give it a big enough niche?

Also, I think Mega Diancie should raise to A+. Imo it is even more dangerous than Ray as an -ate, as it has a better matchup against Giratina, Mega Gyara, Dialga, non-Protean Latis, Mega Chomp, Regirock and Mega Ttar.
Its 4th slot also changes its checks and counters. With Spore, Fur Coat Chansey is no longer a reliable counter. King's Shield eases match-up vs opposing -ates. Magma Storm takes out Shedinja and non-Flash Fire Steels, Flash Fire can be beaten with PBlades.
However it lacks the versatility that Ray and KyuB have set-wise. 99% of the time, Diancie is Pixilate, as it doesn't have any other good set (Magic Guard is inferior to Pixilate).
 
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Pikachu is a D-Rank tops. Even with the Light Ball boost, you may as well run Lucky Punch Chansey instead; the jump-start in crit rate would turn most of its Impostered moves into an instant +1 that ignores Defense boost 50% of the time at the very least. Yeah, it's overall weaker, but at least you keep the high HP so you live a hit. Besides, there really aren't many KOs that Pikachu would score that Chansey would miss out on.

I'm still on board for Mega-Swampert for at least C-Rank. It still has niches that make it trump Mega-Gyarados, Kyogre, Mega-Tyranitar, and Groudon in a few ways and has a solid stat-line overall. Also, I can see Ho-Oh ranked higher than C-Rank because I've faced several and they can be a pain to remove.

While on the topic, why is Slaking C+-Rank? I get that it's a substitute for Regigigas, but there is virtually no reason to use it over Regigigas. Its decent HP and small Special Attack and overall physical bulk increases are rarely worth the ridiculous loss in special bulk, and there is no other difference between the two. At that point, why bother using it over Regigigas?
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Does mawile really deserve to be ranked at all? Its stats are pitiful and it cant even use huge power. I honestly cant think of a single reason i would EVER want to run it on a team. Just use registeel please.

Also i dont think pikachu should be ranked. Its basically total rng whether it works or not and it has no place on any serious team. Unlike other niche imposter users like soul dew latis it doesnt have any specific targets to hit. Its a wasted teamslot imo.
 

MAMP

MAMP!
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Does mawile really deserve to be ranked at all? Its stats are pitiful and it cant even use huge power. I honestly cant think of a single reason i would EVER want to run it on a team. Just use registeel please.

Also i dont think pikachu should be ranked. Its basically total rng whether it works or not and it has no place on any serious team.
Mega Mawile's niche is sets with Mawilite, which take advantage of an ability of Simple to set up, and then Mega Evolves to get Huge Power. It's not particularly great, but it is something that no other Pokemon can really do (except Medicham I guess, but Mawile has a much better typing).
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
If thats the case than i would say that base forme mawile should be listed instead. Having the mega there implies that the already-mega forme is viable, and is inconsistent with the fact that kyogre and groudon are not ranked seperately from their primal counterparts.
 

MAMP

MAMP!
is a Pre-Contributor
If thats the case than i would say that base forme mawile should be listed instead. Having the mega there implies that the already-mega forme is viable, and is inconsistent with the fact that kyogre and groudon are not ranked seperately from their primal counterparts.
Except that regular Mawile isnt used; it starts as Mega Mawile holding a Mawilite, and then mega evolves. As for Groudon, thats meant to just be regular Groudon; Primal Groudon is unranked, as it wasn't really a thing that people used when these rankings were made. These rankings are really, really outdated overall tbh, they were put together in the aftermath of the primal bans when the metagame was still sorting itself out, and have barely been updated since. These rankings really need to be overhauled, Darm-Z being above Ho-oh, Deo-A, MChomp and MVenu is an absolute joke.
 

Uselesscrab

I'm the words you start a fight with
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Except that regular Mawile isnt used; it starts as Mega Mawile holding a Mawilite, and then mega evolves. As for Groudon, thats meant to just be regular Groudon; Primal Groudon is unranked, as it wasn't really a thing that people used when these rankings were made. These rankings are really, really outdated overall tbh, they were put together in the aftermath of the primal bans when the metagame was still sorting itself out, and have barely been updated since. These rankings really need to be overhauled, Darm-Z being above Ho-oh, Deo-A, MChomp and MVenu is an absolute joke.
I'm not sure I want to be in charge of running the rankings singlehandedly but as the only remaining member of the original group, I can try to take a look at them and sort them out.
 
Except that regular Mawile isnt used; it starts as Mega Mawile holding a Mawilite, and then mega evolves. As for Groudon, thats meant to just be regular Groudon; Primal Groudon is unranked, as it wasn't really a thing that people used when these rankings were made. These rankings are really, really outdated overall tbh, they were put together in the aftermath of the primal bans when the metagame was still sorting itself out, and have barely been updated since. These rankings really need to be overhauled, Darm-Z being above Ho-oh, Deo-A, MChomp and MVenu is an absolute joke.
Mega Mawile can't mega anymore, that was fixed. It needs to be regular form in order to Mega and gain huge power.
I'm not sure I want to be in charge of running the rankings singlehandedly but as the only remaining member of the original group, I can try to take a look at them and sort them out.
I'd be willing to help out if you want me.
 

Uselesscrab

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Sorry for double post. edit: this turned out not to be a double post after all!

I'd be willing to help out if you want me.
I would gladly have you on the team if this ends up being revived. I was already in the middle of doing a revamp, though. What do you guys think of this? Is it worth starting a new thread?

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the BH metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

S+ Rank

S Rank


A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the BH metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

A+ Rank

A Rank

A- Rank


B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the BH metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

B+ Rank

B Rank

B- Rank


C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the BH metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

C+ Rank

C Rank

C- Rank


D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the BH metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

D Rank


Blissey Rank: Blissey is in a unique situation in Balanced Hackmons in that it's directly outclassed by Chansey for all but one set (Final Gambit) because of Chansey's ability to bluff Eviolite even if it's running something else. However, it is, along with most high-HP Imposter pokemon, runnable, and very good.
 
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