BH Balanced Hackmons

I admittedly wasnt't exactly the most suited for saying those arguments since I haven't rly played gen7BH yet. However i didnt rly want to attack her on the way she argues(tho quite ridiculous).
while my arguments werent that good I would still like to say that I dont think it is the right issue: she is proposing to ban harvest, which doesn't seem to be the broken part of the set to me. Z-moves are(from what I've understood) and the reason they are not getting banned is because the clause does not seem so easy to implement(competitively speaking).

Also, Arandomnoob, you rly shouldn't worry about being judged for your name... We've all gotta start somewhere, and my PS name is "LeRandy" anyway ^^. I would gladly help you in about two weeks(regarding what you said in your sig), but rn I need to practice+pass exams :/.

I have seen a lot new people posting on the thread since the new gen? is it just a feeling? and are the tutoring projects still going, because it is really cool that a lot of people are willing to learn BH, and dont just say "my way of playing is superior". In general, a comprehensive guide to start BH could probably be really helpful.

Also: Arceus always worked that way. It was a low ladder bait, but after a while you would get used to it (and get blown away by the people who did use multitype because it was a decent offensive check to ates with max speed).
 
I mean Harvest just gives you a high chance that you'll be able to sweep an entire team without giving them a chance to come back at all.

Here's an example of how the lack of Harvest opens the avenue for a comeback: MMY got disabled, and given I wasn't switching out...you get the idea.

So really I figure get rid of harvest with it at the least because without it there's at least an extant chance for a comeback should the Z-Sweeper be starting on a full team. Wouldn't mind seeing z moves in moveslots go either (after all, they fuck with Mega Geng because they dont get Normalized), but at the least kick Harvest out so that the Z-Sweeper can't 6-0 from basically the get-go.
 
The Great Pokémon Master's Hazardous Falldown Dragon



Yaya (Giratina) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic Spikes
- Will-O-Wisp

Just posting this set here to claim credit as its inventor, since I noticed many other people using it on the ladder. It is basically a Magic Bounce-piercing entry hazard setter, which also serves as the team's immunity to Shedinja's Endeavor. Its immunity to Rapid Spin is plain awesome, as that move has become popular now that Dark-type Pokémon, Pokémon with the Dazzling or Queenly Majesty Ability, and Pokémon under Psychic Terrain are immune to Prankster Defog. This Giratina's entry hazard techniques outnumber Defog in terms of PP, and it can also use Will-O-Wisp to burn-stall or annoy Defog users, especially the extremely common Steel-type ones such as Registeel, since they are immune to Toxic Spikes. And finally, Shore Up is used as the healing move of choice, as it basically outclasses all of the other healing moves now (even though its advantage is incredibly situational regardless).

In general, I believe that Toxic Spikes is an extremely underrated move in Balanced Hackmons, due to the way it puts an instant time limit on the lives of many powerful offensive threats, including Mega Mewtwo forms, Mega Diancie, Primal Groudon and Water Bubble Primal Kyogre. And even defensive Pokémon such as Magic Bounce Giratina and Unaware walls do not appreciate having their health chipped every turn.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
The Great Pokémon Master's Hazardous Falldown Dragon



Yaya (Giratina) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic Spikes
- Will-O-Wisp

Just posting this set here to claim credit as its inventor, since I noticed many other people using it on the ladder. It is basically a Magic Bounce-piercing entry hazard setter, which also serves as the team's immunity to Shedinja's Endeavor. Its immunity to Rapid Spin is plain awesome, as that move has become popular now that Dark-type Pokémon, Pokémon with the Dazzling or Queenly Majesty Ability, and Pokémon under Psychic Terrain are immune to Prankster Defog. This Giratina's entry hazard techniques outnumber Defog in terms of PP, and it can also use Will-O-Wisp to burn-stall or annoy Defog users, especially the extremely common Steel-type ones such as Registeel, since they are immune to Toxic Spikes. And finally, Shore Up is used as the healing move of choice, as it basically outclasses all of the other healing moves now (even though its advantage is incredibly situational regardless).

In general, I believe that Toxic Spikes is an extremely underrated move in Balanced Hackmons, due to the way it puts an instant time limit on the lives of many powerful offensive threats, including Mega Mewtwo forms, Mega Diancie, Primal Groudon and Water Bubble Primal Kyogre. And even defensive Pokémon such as Magic Bounce Giratina and Unaware walls do not appreciate having their health chipped every turn.
just saying, but mold breaker hazards are a really common thing, and even with giratina, its a oldie. however i will agree with you that from what ive seen, toxic spikes have definitely increased in viability. poison types are super rare in the tier as it is, and the fact that PH is slowly dying away due to the sheer power the meta is bringing is a godsend for the hazard to thrive.

also i think since shore up is used so much, AND the effect is so situational enless your legit facing the 1 sand team on the ladder, especially with primal weathers destroying any hope of it lasting, shore up is so situational, id just run a different recovery move because unlike sand, imprision is actually decently common enough that i DONT want to be imprisoned (on top of that, its the more "threatening" of the two) shore up is good, but remember, everyone else thinks so too, and plenty of people can and will capitalize on it. this isn't mostly for you, but i do know people seem to love shore up, and eventually someone memey is going to abuse the hell out of that (like me brb) :^) just run all the other healing items, and make sure you dont abuse shore up because its "better" because when you think about it, its really not. by it being objectively better for defensive mons, it literally made itself WORSE.
 
I mean Harvest just gives you a high chance that you'll be able to sweep an entire team without giving them a chance to come back at all.

Here's an example of how the lack of Harvest opens the avenue for a comeback: MMY got disabled, and given I wasn't switching out...you get the idea.

So really I figure get rid of harvest with it at the least because without it there's at least an extant chance for a comeback should the Z-Sweeper be starting on a full team. Wouldn't mind seeing z moves in moveslots go either (after all, they fuck with Mega Geng because they dont get Normalized), but at the least kick Harvest out so that the Z-Sweeper can't 6-0 from basically the get-go.
I don't get the point of a Leppa Berry Harvest: You give up an item and an ability and likely just use 4 Z-moves to make the Leppa Berry worthwhile:

Physical
  1. Lightening Bolt - Sheer Force, Life Orb = 208 Base Power < Catastropika's 210 Base Power- seriously, just 2 Base Power less. (15% miss is less risky than 50% chance Harvest fails if you already used the 1 pp) *Sheer force removes Life Orb recoil
  2. Lightening Bolt - Electric Surge, Life Orb = 253 Base Power > Catastropika's 210 Base Power.
  3. Facade - Guts, Flame Orb = 210 Base Power = Pulverizing Pancake's 210 Base Power - Burn only deals 6.25% damage this gen, and prevents other status conditions.
  4. Knock-off - Hustle, Life Orb (assuming foe has item) = 185.25 Base Power which is > Malicious Moonsalt's 180. (20% miss is less risky than 50% chance Harvest fails if you already used the 1 pp)
Special
1. Steam Eruption - Water Bubble = 220 Base Power w/o an item, or 286 with Life Orb which is > Oceanic Operetta's 195 (If you need Sound-based move use Liquid Bubble Sparkling Aria with a Life Orb for 207 Base Power).
2. Psystrike - Psychic Surge, Life Orb = 195 Base Power > Genesis Supernova's 185 (Psychic Surge triggers the Psychic Terrain before the attack, giving Psystrike the edge on the first turn use, and it hits from the foe's Defense stat, letting you Mix Sweep even if your Sweeper is a pure Special Attack type). Also, Psychic Surge means you wont fear Fake-out users on your first turn, nor a foe's Substitute, as Substitute does prevent Genesis Supernova from summoning Psychic Terrain.
3. Boomburst - Galvanize, Life Orb = 218 Base Power > 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt's 195 and it being sound means it hits thru Substitute.

The benefit of these explanations is not to simply replace using Z-moves, but to demonstrate that Life Orb paired with abilities like Water Bubble, Psychic Surge, and Sheer Force surpass what Z moves can do when your ability and item do not add any further damage.

I would suggest filling in a Z-move into a standard move set, like Genesis Supernova on a Contrary Deoxys-A, so it can use Psycho Boost with a higher base power from the terrain, and still have immunity from Priority without giving up its ability slot.

**One thing to remember, V-create can be Copycatted, and Assisted, is boosted by Drought/Desolate Land and packs almost as much base power as Genesis Supernova.

Consider replacing your Leppa Berry and Harvest Pokemon with Life Orb Contrary, V-create/Super Power/Dragon Ascent/Ice Hammer Primal Groudon

Or

Life Orb Prankster V-Create/Copycat/Spore/(Baton Pass - to a Contrary user)
 
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with harvest and leppa berry you get Stoked Sparksrfer and 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt. One has a 100% chance to paralyse and the other basically has a 100% chance to crit. Not to mention you get Genesis Supernova which sets up psychic terrain which is very significant when your next Genesis Supernova hit because of the 1.5x multiplier. You are also somewhat imposter proof since no one runs leppa berry chansey and I will not listen to anything otherwise.

Here is an example calc...

+1 (Psychic Terrain) 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 127-151 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- 75.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Genesis Supernova vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Registeel: 121-143 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You can see that even without psychic terrain, Genesis Supernova has a very small power difference compard to Life Orb Psystrike under Psychic terrain. I think you are simply undervaluing z moves. Also have you noticed you are running Life Orb on everything to just barely out damage z moves?

Finally here is just a calc for mewtwo with psychic terrain using Genesis Supernova

+1 (Psychic Terrain) 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Genesis Supernova vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Registeel: 182-214 (50 - 58.7%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

P.S I know psychic terrain and +1 is a bit off, we are looking at about 1% defference so it really won't matter much.

Also, I think you are forgetting that z moves can also be used as coverage.

look at how powerful z moves can serve as coverage when you don't have to worry about pp

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Registeel: 192-228 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Registeel on a critical hit: 255-301 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Considering the very high chance of critting, this crit is not at all unlikely.
 
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Leppa berry is definitely not the problem, but z-move spam arguably is. The trick is not to overdo it: just one mon with two z-moves can easily break through a team, easing the task of the others to sweep. Plus, if you only put on two z-moves, you still have two extra moveslots for coverage, recovery or utility. So even though I pack defensive z-move checks, they can easily be worn down as they can generally only take one z-move at neutral damage and, even with the most bulky mons I can think of (AV m-tar in sandstorm with full defense investment). Of course, Sturdinja can soak up z-moves, but it's also very easy to lure it so you don't know whether it's a surefire check. and don't underestimate something like Water Bubble Oceanic Operetta which completely destroys anything without Storm Drain. I still advocate a team z-move limit because of the overwhelming power of z-moves. Wasting leppa berry and harvest on these is wasting the power of these moves.
 
Honestly looking over it I think that if we're to allow Z-Moves in moveslots at all, they need to be single-use full stop, no Leppa on it. Even allowing an entire team team 2 Z-Moves is asking for one mon to carry two and a Leppa and get itself set to take out half a team, which puts a huge handicap on opponents.
 
So, grains of salt here since I haven't really started playing Gen VII BH yet, mostly looking at posts and replays while trying to find a good list of changes to old moves and abilities plus a list of new moves, items, and abilities that doesn't require digging through multi-page topics on various sites so I have an idea of what I want to screw around with before getting serious. Or just falling back to tweaking my old, first X/Y team because why the heck does it still work so darn effectively? But things I want to talk about.


Z-Moves. I like them. They can add some nice strategy at both the team building and battling levels by determining who to put them on, what to give up, and when to use that one-shot wonder move. I don't like that the signature ones can be slapped anywhere, not with how strong they appear to be. If anything is done about them, I'd advocate keeping the Z-Crystals legal.

Water Bubble. This thing is like... Huge Power for Water-type moves. Literally. (Huge Power Tackle does about the same damage as unboosted Return, for reference.) It looks like you could just slap it on Scarfed Primal Ogre and start Water Spouting your troubles away. Not to mention the other benefits in Fire-resistance AND burn immunity! Water Bubble Mega-Gyarados? Heck, its basically giving STAB and then some to anything, so you could dump it on anything that could use the Water-coverage, like Zekrom to bop non-Desolate Primaldon and a lot of other things. I worry about this being healthy for the metagame if you're forced to run Water Absorb to not be swept by every random Kyogre.

Trapping. We have even more permanent trapping options that can't be bounced this generation and that has me a little bit concerned. I don't know what to do about this because things like Mean Look is risky because of Magic Bounce while Infestation you can get out of eventually. But Thousand Arrows, Spirit Shackle, and... that anchor move thingy? They hit you and you're stuck unless you happen to be immune, which removes a lot of strategy from play, especially since you won't see it coming until it hits you, like standard. I guess I could keep spamming U-Turn on everything...


Mind, not advocating suspects or bans here, but these are just initial concerns of mine about meta health. Once I get into the swing of things, then I can get to work on proper analysis and breaking stuff down.
 
with harvest and leppa berry you get Stoked Sparksrfer and 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt. One has a 100% chance to paralyse and the other basically has a 100% chance to crit. Not to mention you get Genesis Supernova which sets up psychic terrain which is very significant when your next Genesis Supernova hit because of the 1.5x multiplier. You are also somewhat imposter proof since no one runs leppa berry chansey and I will not listen to anything otherwise.

Here is an example calc...

+1 (Psychic Terrain) 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 127-151 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- 75.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Genesis Supernova vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Registeel: 121-143 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You can see that even without psychic terrain, Genesis Supernova has a very small power difference compard to Life Orb Psystrike under Psychic terrain. I think you are simply undervaluing z moves. Also have you noticed you are running Lofe Orb on everything to just barely out damage z moves?

Finally here is just a calc for mewtwo with psychic terrain using Genesis Supernova

+1 (Psychic Terrain) 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Genesis Supernova vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Registeel: 182-214 (50 - 58.7%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

P.S I know psychic terrain and +1 is a bit off, we are looking at about 1% defference so it really won't matter much.

Also, I think you are forgetting that z moves can also be used as coverage.

look at how powerful z moves can serve as coverage when you don't have to worry about pp

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Registeel: 192-228 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Registeel on a critical hit: 255-301 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Considering the very high chance of critting, this crit is not at all unlikely.
Since when is running Life Orb any worse than Leppa Berry?
Harvest only works 50% of the time, so unless you add sunny day or have a teammate with Drought, I don't see how that is a bad thing. And at that point you might as well run contrary V-Create instead of a Harvest Leppa which then out damages every Z-Move (if you have a Life Orb or Flame Plate).

If you plan on having Sunny Day or a Drought teammate for a Harvest Leppa user then you could also argue a Rain Dance or Drizzle teammate could help out Thunder under weather:

Switching into a Thunder plus Electric Surge user with Life Orb means 110*1.5=165 * 1.3 = 214.5 base damage, stronger than 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt.

If you don't need Rain then just use:

For example Thunderbolt with Electric Terrain alongside Life Orb has 175.5 base power, just above Stoked Sparksurfer. Yes it doesn't paralyze, but you are probably aiming for a KO anyways, and paralysis is nerfed this gen to reduce speed by only 25%.
Yes, at this point you can say 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt is stronger, but the point of an Electric Terrain would be to mixed sweep with say Lightning Bolt at over 253 Base Power and Thunderbolt while holding a Life Orb (I.e. Zekrom). Electric Terrain also prevents sleep and can boost any other teammates that pack electric attacks.

I just don't see the trade-off, as even your Higher chance to critical hit is simply:
"10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt deals damage and has an increased critical hit ratio (1⁄8 instead of 1⁄16)." Or 12.5%

Electric Terrain makes moves stronger than Z moves, benefits your team, and doesn't worry about a 50% chance at hitting more than 1x.

Psystrike with Physic Terrain hits from defense rather than special defense and prevents priority immediately. If the for uses Substitute before you hit with Genesis Supernova you don't even activate the Terrain.
 
Honestly, the Leppa/Harvest set isn't really the scary one. It's the ones that run Psychic Surge or Dazzling/QM that are the scary ones- Psychic Terrain Genesis Supernova KOs basically everything that isn't a seriously bulky resist or max spdef Complete Zygarde/ Eviolite Chansey (or dark types obv), and Genesis followed by Oceanatic Opera kills most of those- and the one thing that can shrug off being blasted by every Z-move and live (Chansey) can't really do much in return- and because Stoked Sparksurfer is a guaranteed para on top of that, it's entirely possible to just parahax past it. Hell, if you're running Deoxys you could run an actual Z-crystal Fighting move and threaten an OHKO to even 252/252+ Chansey.

There are only about three BH viable Dark types (Yveltal, Megatar, Megados) and none of them live a Stoked Sparksurfer or Oceanatic Opera. Zygarde can't take Genesis Supernova followed by Oceanatic Opera from Mewtwo without running Assault Vest, but it's type leaves it open to random Ice moves oneshotting it from Deoxys. 252/252+ Giratina takes Genesis pretty well, but then dies to Malicious Moonsault or Soul Stealing 7 Star Strike.

And if you live, then who cares? There's five more of them standing behind it.

It's as bad or worse than the -ate arguments, or Primal Groudon arguments. One Z-spamming deoxys is fine; Six is not. With Dazzling and Queenly Majesty existing as well as Psychic Surge and Genesis Supernova, every single one of them will also be immune to priority, and having to run Scarf Skill Link mons just to not lose to a team of six Mewtwo-Y that can sit there spamming Z-moves with no regard to anything does not sit well with me.

Z-Moves. I like them. They can add some nice strategy at both the team building and battling levels by determining who to put them on, what to give up, and when to use that one-shot wonder move. I don't like that the signature ones can be slapped anywhere, not with how strong they appear to be. If anything is done about them, I'd advocate keeping the Z-Crystals legal.

Water Bubble. This thing is like... Huge Power for Water-type moves. Literally. (Huge Power Tackle does about the same damage as unboosted Return, for reference.) It looks like you could just slap it on Scarfed Primal Ogre and start Water Spouting your troubles away. Not to mention the other benefits in Fire-resistance AND burn immunity! Water Bubble Mega-Gyarados? Heck, its basically giving STAB and then some to anything, so you could dump it on anything that could use the Water-coverage, like Zekrom to bop non-Desolate Primaldon and a lot of other things. I worry about this being healthy for the metagame if you're forced to run Water Absorb to not be swept by every random Kyogre.

Trapping. We have even more permanent trapping options that can't be bounced this generation and that has me a little bit concerned. I don't know what to do about this because things like Mean Look is risky because of Magic Bounce while Infestation you can get out of eventually. But Thousand Arrows, Spirit Shackle, and... that anchor move thingy? They hit you and you're stuck unless you happen to be immune, which removes a lot of strategy from play, especially since you won't see it coming until it hits you, like standard. I guess I could keep spamming U-Turn on everything....
Z-moves are cool; Signature Z-moves on everything is not.

Water Bubble isn't nearly so effective (Though Water Bubble Specs Oceanatic Opera kills very nearly everything coming off pOgre) because pDon are around and do not care.

I mean trapping is irritating but I've been running six mons with momentum moves since mid x/y so it really doesn't concern me all that much. (It's called Anchor Shot btw)

Since when is running Life Orb any worse than Leppa Berry?
Harvest only works 50% of the time, so unless you add sunny day or have a teammate with Drought, I don't see how that is a bad thing. And at that point you might as well run contrary V-Create instead of a Harvest Leppa which then out damages every Z-Move (if you have a Life Orb or Flame Plate).

If you plan on having Sunny Day or a Drought teammate for a Harvest Leppa user then you could also argue a Rain Dance or Drizzle teammate could help out Thunder under weather:

Switching into a Thunder plus Electric Surge user with Life Orb means 110*1.5=165 * 1.3 = 214.5 base damage, stronger than 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt.

If you don't need Rain then just use:

For example Thunderbolt with Electric Terrain alongside Life Orb has 175.5 base power, just above Stoked Sparksurfer. Yes it doesn't paralyze, but you are probably aiming for a KO anyways, and paralysis is nerfed this gen to reduce speed by only 25%.
Yes, at this point you can say 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt is stronger, but the point of an Electric Terrain would be to mixed sweep with say Lightning Bolt at over 253 Base Power and Thunderbolt while holding a Life Orb (I.e. Zekrom). Electric Terrain also prevents sleep and can boost any other teammates that pack electric attacks.

I just don't see the trade-off, as even your Higher chance to critical hit is simply:
"10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt deals damage and has an increased critical hit ratio (1⁄8 instead of 1⁄16)." Or 12.5%

Electric Terrain makes moves stronger than Z moves, benefits your team, and doesn't worry about a 50% chance at hitting more than 1x.

Psystrike with Physic Terrain hits from defense rather than special defense and prevents priority immediately. If the for uses Substitute before you hit with Genesis Supernova you don't even activate the Terrain.
Notably, the issue with Harvest/Leppa that you seem to be ignoring is that while any one of the options that you have proposed hits harder for that specific type, the Leppa Z-Moves will hit that hard on every option. And guess what? I'd take the versatility of being able to hit nearly as hard as a Psychic Surge Life Orb Psystrike and a 50% crit rate move over running Electric Surge LO Thunder in a meta crawling with Primal Groudon and Complete Zygarde.

You also keep mentioning 'Lightning Bolt'. What is this 'Lightning Bolt' (Or, as you called it earlier, 'Lightening Bolt') that you keep referring to? Thunderbolt? Bolt Strike?


Personally, I've been experimenting with Electric Terrain a lot so far, and either way I'd call you an idiot for running LO Electric Surge Zekrom. Role compression is a thing, but Zekrom wants to be abusing the terrain, not setting it, and it's simply not viable enough in it's own right to work without serious support. Psychic Surge Mewtwo works because Psychic Surge is frankly ridiculous on it and goes well on any team because Mewtwo is and always has been top-tier viable in BH- plus, Psychic is much more of a spammable type than Electric is in a tier where the top two walls and one of the most powerful offensive threats either resist or are immune to it.


Also,
""10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt deals damage and has an increased critical hit ratio (1⁄8 instead of 1⁄16)." Or 12.5%"
Showdown notes that 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt has a 'Very high critical hit ratio' as opposed to, say, Night Slash's 'high critical hit ratio'. Given how often it crits me I'm willing to bet that the crit ratio is anywhere from 33% to 50%.

Also, anyone Substituting in front of a Ytwo that hasn't yet revealed Harvest is incredibly foolish, due to how common Dazzling/QM are. Of course, this expects that the person is running Prankster; Anything faster should be attacking anyway, and if Harvest has been revealed then Genesis Supernova has probably already established Psychic Terrain.
 
I use sticky web since there are no levitate users in BH and flying types won't switch in Zekrom.
With Dragon Hammer and swords dance, both moves take advantage of Zekrom's power. For example I can switch into Mega Rayquaza and take the flying Stab and either KO with STAB or swords dance on the predicted switch to a ground type and use Dragon Hammer with the +2 attack, depending on how much damage they have taken.
With Zekrom being immune to sleep and paralysis due to its typing and Terrain it doesn't easily get statuses.
 
I use sticky web since there are no levitate users in BH and flying types won't switch in Zekrom.
With Dragon Hammer and swords dance, both moves take advantage of Zekrom's power. For example I can switch into Mega Rayquaza and take the flying Stab and either KO with STAB or swords dance on the predicted switch to a ground type and use Dragon Hammer with the +2 attack, depending on how much damage they have taken.
With Zekrom being immune to sleep and paralysis due to its typing and Terrain it doesn't easily get statuses.
Right. The same Rayquaza that has a fair chance of OHKOing you with Precipice Blades, will OHKO you with Draco Meteor or any other Dragon STAB, and in fact should not be switched into at all until you've confirmed it isn't Specs because Boomburst 2HKOes you at all times?

Oh, and to add insult to injury 252/4 Pdon happily takes Zekrom's +2 Precipice Blades and OHKOes back. Zygarde also outruns you, and can thus do whatever it feels like; Fur Coat and Prankster Giratina both beat you 1v1 too.

Again, Electric Surge Zekrom is bad. You're too frail and too slow to make use of it; Shift Gear doesn't give you enough power to break through Zygarde or Pdon, and it's totally unsafe to come in on anything other than a Flying move from Ray, and even then that slightest bit of chip damage guarantees the Precipice Blades OHKO.

Now, I've run both Surge Surfer and Galvanize Zekrom with Electric Terrain support, so I know a fair bit about what I'm talking about; Zekrom is not effective as an Electric Surge user. It benefits immensely from having a teammate run it, but it simply does not have the speed, bulk, or attack to effectvely make use of it- especially not if you then need to set up, as that leaves only four turns with which to make use of the terrain without using an Extender as your item.
 
Yeah even in my realm of the ladder (~1300s) if Zekrom is doing anything, it's doing Galvanize FakeSpeed, which isn't all that common (or viable given Zygundam & Co basically hard forcing a switch) anyway.
 
So, grains of salt here since I haven't really started playing Gen VII BH yet, mostly looking at posts and replays while trying to find a good list of changes to old moves and abilities plus a list of new moves, items, and abilities that doesn't require digging through multi-page topics on various sites so I have an idea of what I want to screw around with before getting serious.
There's probably everything you're looking for here or you can check the Gen 7 OM thread where IT has done a sweet job at listing pretty much every new thing there is.

Water bubble is ridiculously strong and is run with a shitload of different coverage move from Tail Glow + Earth Power to Moongeist Beam to the incredibly frustrating Core Enforcer and even a z dark move from Greninja. I don't think there is a single combination of pokemon, item and ability that can wall all of that. Even my specially defensive Poison Heal Kyogre (which can eat 2 Specs Steam Eruptions) got destroyed by Specs Water Spout and I had legitimately no idea that it was actually a thing. Almost every team I've seen on the ladder is running water absorb which is just stupid.

Trapping and PP stalling is actually super viable this gen and so against any playstyle, I've actually reached 1700+ on the ladder with a team that is pretty much centered around trapping + PP Stalling with sets like Rapid Spin + Haze + Anchor Shot or Dual Recovery. A lot of defensive mons (or offensive) don't have the room to put any pivoting move in their moveset and the lack of Ghost types in the meta definitely helps. But I would be hard pressed to argue that it's broken because of the numerous counterplays there is to it (shuffling, Pivoting, Ghost Types, Shed Shell).

Ppl seem to think the Leppa Harvest set can't pick and choose its coverage to get past its counters like most other sets can... ppl are wrong. Even among z-moves alone you have quite a bit of choice and all of them are good. Regular mmy switchins for example get straight up OHKOd by the Leppa set and have no idea what happened, meanwhile even shit like RegenVest Solgaleo can't take two consecutive 10,000,000 Volt, which has an effective base power of nearly 300 (+2 crit chance means 50% to crit since gen 6).
Another thing I want to add to the table that just pushed that set to a worse level of stupidity is Guardian of Alola which cuts off 75% of your remaining health, meaning any pokemon that can't take a Genesis Supernova at 25% health can't be considered a counter (credits to LaxLapras caus he's the one I've seen running this).

Anyway those signature Z moves on random mons are super dumb, a few weeks earlier I was running a random Guardian of Alola on Pixilate Diancie which essentially invalidates every Diancie switchins ever. Any mmy can literally OHKO specially defensive Unaware Yveltal with one move which is completely retarded.

Even there nobody is arguing that z moves aren't broken, they just arguing about what context they think they're more broken is. Again IT literally asked for a ban on z moves and nobody disagreed with him, on the contrary he got more likes than any other post in the thread.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone advocating for those signature z moves to stay so I don't even know why we're still arguing about it.
 
I mean trapping is irritating but I've been running six mons with momentum moves since mid x/y so it really doesn't concern me all that much. (It's called Anchor Shot btw)

My question is, do you run six Volturn mons because you like playing Volturn? Or do you do it because the large amount of trapping options? Legit question, no wrong answers, could answer something I'm not thinking of at the moment, etc.
 
motherlove You mentioned the use of Guardian of Alola and I'd like to further point out how well that fucks with momentum killers like Innards Out Blissey, even ones with a Final Gambit failsafe. At 25% HP, a max HP Bliss can't even muster 200 damage from Innards Out making it useless unless you've got a revenge killer who won't immediately die.

Anyway, I'd like to talk about a set I've used for a while that I stole ages ago from someone I can't remember, now adapted to Gen 7!
Gimmick Man (Deoxys-Speed)@Focus Sash
4 Atk/252 SpAtk/252 Spe
Naive Nature
-Zing Zap
-Air Slash
-Seed Flare
-Dark Pulse

If you want a MMY revenge killer, this can do you just fine from about 40% on MMY's part if it has no boosts on it. If you want to eliminate HO Greninja sets that don't invest in a lick of bulk or defenses, here it is. You need a revenge for a rampant Pheromosa? Look no further. If you want to make your opponent rage as they inexplicably flinch over and over again, you've come to the right place.

This thing is all about abusing the living fuck out of Serene Grace and scoring some surprise kills on things with paper defenses to boot. Even a Chansey Impostering Pheromosa will pretty much straight up die to this fucker's Air Slash, and given Deo-S' reputation as a setter, they won't see it coming. Sash allows you to go for a Seed Flare which now has an 80% shot at the SpDef drop, which can help Dark Pulse and Air Slash deal sizable chunks to even the likes of Aegislash-Shield, and survive the riposte (if the opponent lives, which glass Cannon Gren builds WILL NOT, Greninjash or otherwise).

The one problem is that if Imposter Chansey gets in on this, the sole weakness of this set (its inability to take much of anything) goes right out the window. You better hope you've an -ate Speed user left to deal with it if that happens and that Psy Terrain isn't around, as the max speed means you won't be outspeeding this fucker unboosted-and good luck boosting vs SereneSlash without a Choice Scarf.

Thoughts? I don't proclaim this to be great or even good, but it's at least semi-decent at dealing chip damage and making opponents susceptible to more damage, so it's a weird kind of support in a sense.

(...also it's secretly a reject Robot Master.)
 
ARandomNoob Something with paralysis is better for a set like that. Nuzzle + Zing Zap Zekrom or Discharge/Dragon Breath + Air Slash Mega-Ray, etc. Serene Grace Paraflinch is more reliable but also more rage inducing. Also, if you're terrified of Imposters copying the set, Shield Dust completely shuts down Serene Grace.


...I suddenly wonder if Shield Dust trumps Sunsteel Strike's secondary or if Sunsteel Strike trumps Shield Dust. Not that it matters since the result is the same, but maybe there's some super-niche case where it matters? Or it matters with Core Enforcer if that lasts until switch out... no source seems to be clear on this, just stating it negates the ability if the target has moved. I guess I could get into the sim to check for myself but... sleep and then work beckons me. >.>
 
ARandomNoob Something with paralysis is better for a set like that. Nuzzle + Zing Zap Zekrom or Discharge/Dragon Breath + Air Slash Mega-Ray, etc. Serene Grace Paraflinch is more reliable but also more rage inducing. Also, if you're terrified of Imposters copying the set, Shield Dust completely shuts down Serene Grace.


...I suddenly wonder if Shield Dust trumps Sunsteel Strike's secondary or if Sunsteel Strike trumps Shield Dust. Not that it matters since the result is the same, but maybe there's some super-niche case where it matters? Or it matters with Core Enforcer if that lasts until switch out... no source seems to be clear on this, just stating it negates the ability if the target has moved. I guess I could get into the sim to check for myself but... sleep and then work beckons me. >.>
It would matter, if poison touch. Nobody uses that, though, so we should be fine.
 
Does anyone have strategies for the following Pokemon?

- Pyukumuku
- Castform
- Oranguru
- Wishiwashi-School

And please don't tell me that they're either outclassed by a Pokemon that's normally in Ubers or just plain bad. I just want strategies, if that isn't too much to ask.

Also, someone should make tiers for BH so people aren't getting swarmed by the same Pokemon over and over again. I'd probably play the lower tiers more than the others. Does anyone else feel the same way?
 
Does anyone have strategies for the following Pokemon?

- Pyukumuku
- Castform
- Oranguru
- Wishiwashi-School

And please don't tell me that they're either outclassed by a Pokemon that's normally in Ubers or just plain bad. I just want strategies, if that isn't too much to ask.

Also, someone should make tiers for BH so people aren't getting swarmed by the same Pokemon over and over again. I'd probably play the lower tiers more than the others. Does anyone else feel the same way?
The top three are all bad, but you already know this so I'll skip to the strategy- or I would, had you not requested Pyukumuku and Wishiwashi-school. Strategy for Pyukumuku; Use Wishiwashi instead because it does literally everything better.

Castform you need to be taking advantage of Forecast to get any real use out of it without being outclassed by, say, Raticate. Two weathers and Forecast+Weather Ball give you variable STAB and a way to mix it up, or you use something that doesn't rely on what Pokemon is behind it like Prankster. Or alternately use Silvally which is the same but has a better unique ability and better stats and is also not in Ubers.

Oranguru has a typing that is not terrible for Unaware because it isn't weak to any of the standard Contrary moves, resists Psychic and is immune to Ghost and so also serves as a not-terrible stop against Mewtwo-Y that boost. If Meloetta didn't exist I might even give it a try. (Meloetta is also not ubers)

Wishiwashi is actually not completely shit. Whatever you do you shouldn't be planning on outrunning anything, so invest completely in HP so your relatively thin defence lasts a little bit more, and then spread the rest of your stats around however you want them done. Physically, Wishiwashi outclasses anything that isn't Gyarados-M or Primal Kyogre, so you'll probably want to take advantage of either Crabhammer or Liquidation- Water Bubble is an immense help with this because it's pretty strong. You could also run a Magic Guard set with Facade, because Wishiwashi doesn't like anything chipping away at it's HP and has enough attack to run something like Crabhammer/Facade/Wood Hammer/Head Smash or something like that because Wishiwashi has too little HP to dare use recoil moves normally. As a bonus, you outslow anything commonly used in the tier save Shuckle meaning that you don't have to worry too much about random Core Enforcers stripping your ability away.

You also have just about enough bulk to run Poison Heal, which should be running a similar set without recoil moves.

However, under no circumstances bar having a Pokemon completely immune to all Wishiwashi's moves should you run boosting moves; Wishiwashi's main limiting factor is it's dire lack of HP, and so a Chansey coming in on it spells near-certain doom if it nets a boost while doing so for reasons that should be obvious.
 
So Electrified Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam predictably hit through Lightning Rod. RIP ElectrifyRod.

For any other mechanics you may be curious about, this thread should be of particular use.
 
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Zaph1337 If you want to use outclassed Pokemon, that's fine, but most of them won't have a strategy beyond imitating the things that outclass them. And most people won't have an idea of one off hand either. (Let's be honest: most decent or better BH players copy each other and make some slight tweaks here and there.) A few have some unique strengths nothing else has, like Celebi has a good Contrary typing but is pretty crappy otherwise. Best bet for anything is to look carefully at its typing and stats and see if anything already does similar to it. If so, congrats, you have at least one strategy to build off of! You can also use standard sets and sets from other OMs (other Other Metas?) to get an idea for a starting place too. Otherwise, time to experiment! I do recommend being relatively familiar with mechanics, team building, and battling in general if you want to get the most out of your outclassed mons, since they cannot be successful by just slapping popular sets on them most of the time.



Edit: Unrelated, but to my above comment about Shield Dust...

Edit: Decided to check anyways. Your specific example, Poison Touch + Sunsteel Strike, was able to Poison a Shield Dust Pokemon. That probably confirms that these moves are totally identical to Mold Breaker in functionality.

Doesn't mean a whole lot right now. But if we got an ability like, say, Sleep Touch, in the future then it might become quite important!
 
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