Battle Maison Discussion & Records

Smuckem

Resident Facility Bot Wannabe
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Question, what reasons would a ResTalk opponent have to not automatically use Sleep Talk when Resting? I assume the AI isn't advanced enough to think about conserving PP by just sleeping around. For example:

Battle #225, Eviolite TR setter Spiritzee/Theorymon's murderous Swirlix for BS Triples/Repto's weird-ass Belly Drum Slurpuff/Megawile/a Flower Veil version of Repto's Expert Belt Florges/Repto's Iron Ball Excadrill

vs. Gwen, Magnezone/Milotic/Kingdra/Krookodile/Porygon-Z/Magnezone (Set 4)

The last two turns are the points of interest here: Milotic4 has been inadvertently given two Competitive boosts and has Excadrill lined up for the kill, yet while Resting...I dunno.

9RFW-WWWW-WW56-UYAU

The odds of the AI having two consecutive brain farts like these this deep into a streak have to be astronomically low.
 

turskain

activated its Quick Claw!
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I don't think the AI is too smart about using Sleep Talk - I've seen it use the move on the turn it wakes up from Rest sleep turns and fail, and forget to use it when actually asleep.
 
Since this topic was already well under way (as well as facility topics for previous gens) before I began lurking, I was hoping someone had an idea of how quickly TRE generally serves up the moveset dumps. Extremely eager to begin looking up Tree sets. Assuming he intends to do one for this generation as well, of course.
 

NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Since this topic was already well under way (as well as facility topics for previous gens) before I began lurking, I was hoping someone had an idea of how quickly TRE generally serves up the moveset dumps. Extremely eager to begin looking up Tree sets. Assuming he intends to do one for this generation as well, of course.
Team Rocket Elite very kindly posted the links to his Pokemon and trainer listings here on May 16, 2014. X and Y released in October 2013. So there was a fairly long period where we were manually gathering data and such. There was huge overlap with Subway sets though, which made things workable even without the full data. I don't know if TRE and R Inanimate are planning to collect and publish the moveset data for SuMo though, and at the moment I can't provide any sort of timeframe on when we'll have full data this time around.
 

NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I've just created a thread for discussing the Battle Tree. While I personally have almost no hard data and don't have even have the game yet, since the game is releasing now it seems a suitable time to start the discussion.

Take a look here, and please, let me know if you have any suggestions!
 
Adding a streak of 255 straight wins in the Super Multi battle with a real live person in ORAS Battle Maison. Trainers Muppet and Tess.


video: NLSG-WWWW-WW57-G2FF (round 252 where we hit 1st place)


The team consisted of Greninja / Mega Kangashkan / Mega Salamence / Clefable.

We will shortly add an in-depth look into our plans and thought processes preceding this team as well as the tactics employed. This shouldn’t take too long, you can expect this to show up in a few days.

As of this moment we haven’t lost a match yet. We won’t be continuing our streak any time soon, however. With SuMo on the horizon we’re expecting to move on and build a new streak there. For now we’re just adding our record to the records page.


Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EV’s: SP.ATT and SPEED
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Protect

Mega Kangashkan @ Mega stone
Ability: Scrappy / Parental Bond
Jolly Nature
EV’s ATTACK and SPEED
- Return
- Fake Out
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch

Mega Salamence @ Mega stone
Ability: Intimidate / Aerilate
Adamant Nature
EV’s: ATTACK, SPEED, HP
- Return
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

Clefable @ Lum Berry
Ability: Magic Guard
Impish Nature
EV’s: HP, DEF, SP.DEF
- Cosmic Power
- Follow Me
- Rest
- Moonblast
 

Attachments

Just Beaten round 50 of the Battle Maisons Super Double's against Battle Chatelaine Evelyn. And wow was it a good match. was right on the edge of my chair towards the end.
Yes I understand that the Battle Maison is pretty much redundant now with sun and moon, but I live in the UK, and we don't get the games until the 23rd. :(
Until then i guess I should keep playing ORAS.

EDIT: Sadly i didn't make it past battle 60. and i can't upload the video for some reason. oh well.

Well here's my team.

Lead: Whiscash: Female (Ten Percent!)
Item: Leftovers.
Nature: Adamant.
Ability: Oblivious.
IV’s: 31/ 31/ 31/**/ 31/ 31
EV’s: 252 Hp. 252 Atk. 4 speed
-Dragon Dance
-Earthquake
-Waterfall
-Rock Slide

Lead: Eelektross: Female (Ellie)
Item: Assault Vest.
Nature: Modest.
Ability: Levitate.
IV’s: 31/ **/ 31/ 31/ 31/ 31
EV’s: 252 Hp. 252 Sp. Atk. 4 Sp. def
-Discharge
-Thunderbolt
-Flamethrower
-Giga Drain

Darmanitan: Female (Penny)
Item: Life Orb.
Nature: Adamant.
Ability: Sheer Force.
IV’s: 31/ 31/ 31/ **/ 31/ 31
EV’s: 4 Hp. 252 Atk. 252 Speed
-Flare Blitz
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide
-Protect

Dragonite: Draco (Male)
Item: Lum Berry.
Nature: Adamant.
Ability: Multiscale.
IV’s: 31/ 31/ 31/ **/ 31/ 31
EV’s: 4 Hp. 252 Atk. 252 Speed
-Outrage
-Dragon Dance
-Earthquake
-Extreme Speed

Since i'm not quite qualified for a leaderboard score yet, i'll just give a quick run down on how things work.
So I'm basically just using a Discharge/ Earthquake combo using a lead ground type and a Pokemon with Levitate to start off. I mostly try to use at least one D-Dance with Whiscash before attacking and Discharge turn 1. Facing one ground type, I got Thunderbolt for the other. Facing 2 ground types, I got Giga Drain and Flamethrower for back up.
Should a Lead Grass type appear, I switch to Darmanitan turn 1 and use Flamethrower with Eelektross. If the grass type can't be ohkoed by Eelektross I usually just attack the other pokemon instead and let Darmanitan take care of the grass type.
Darmanitan uses its standard set. Well its the set I use in Battle Spot singles anyway. It pretty much scores OHKO's on nearly everything that isn't resisted to fire types with, Flare Blitz and the Life Orb Sheer Force, boost. Protect can save her from a team mates Earthquake and Discharge attacks, when I don't need to attack with her right away. Maybe i'm facing a water, ground or rock type, and I want my partner to deal with it.
Dragonite comes in at the end and cleans stuff up. I can sometimes get off 1 Dragon Dance, but when its 1 V 1 I always go for an attack. Against Fairies I never Outrage. They can usually die to an an earthquake anyway, or if I think i'm slower I use Extreme Speed. Multiscale has actually saved me from a couple of near misses. It has survived a couple of stone edges before.
 
Last edited:
Fellow Smogon pokéfans,


As promised a more detailed look into what’s behind the team that’s currently in first place when it comes to the Super Multi Battle Maison (post #5182).


Pre-streak Planning Phase

Before Draco and I start a team, we spend a few months brainstorming about what it would take for a team to reach the number one spot. The Super Multi version of any Maison/Subway/Tower takes a mind-blowing amount of time, with the forced animations and what not. It’s also something you have to meet up for every time you intend to continue the streak, so we prefer not to take things lightly and waste hundreds of hours only to be crushed by the Chatelaine.

Early on in our preparation, Draco was saying how impressed he’d been with his Salamence Mega (see also his Super Single 107-Streak). I checked it out on Smogon and indeed, Salamence is impressive. It’s like a legendary that you can breed to your heart’s content. So it was decided: we’d make this team all about him.

We have some requirements when it comes to the BM as well:

- Always carry Fake Out;
- 100% accuracy = the minimum percentage;
- The second line of Pokémon is intended for switching purposed, so they need to resist or be immune to what the front line fears;
- Intimidate is strongly preferred on the second line;
- 50% special attackers, 50% physical attackers;
- Every Pokémon has at least one physical or special attack (for Taunt);
- Given the move versatility of Water Pokémon and the numerous advantages of being a Water type, we always use one ourselves and have a means to punish the opponents’.

We figured Salamence would be amazing at taking out Fighting Pokémon, so we soon decided on a Fighting-weak front line. Salamence would be a switch-in for Fighting Pokémon. The Super Multi allows for two Megas on your team of four, so Kangaskhan was a no-brainer. It took us a while to come up with Greninja after, but with its Dark typing, Godlike ability Protean and nigh-perfect attacking stats it became rather clear that it would be the perfect match for both Salamence and Kangaskhan. Opting for these two, we also ticked quite a few of our required boxes.

With one slot left, we began discussing the possibility of the front line being wiped out by a collection of legendary Pokémon. What chance would Salamence have then, with its 4x Ice weakness? Very little, generally. So we had to divert the attention paid to Salamence to the other Pokémon. It took me some time to come up with Clefable, who filled the missing role. Follow Me literally diverts all attention from Salamence. Clefable is awesome as a switch-in for Kangaskhan, as it resists Fighting moves. So it was decided and the team was complete.


Individual Pokémon Notes

Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EV’s: SP.ATT and SPEED
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Protect

The pinnacle of special attackers, Protean Greninja has more STABs than any other Pokémon in the game. Focus Sash generally allows it to hit at least twice. 1 HP Protects are a sure way to mess with the computer AI.

We originally went for Extrasensory, feeling that it would be great to punish the Fighting Pokémon that were bound to show up against a Normal and a Dark Pokémon, given the BM’s propensity to choose STABs that will hurt you. This was a serious miscalculation on our part that we quickly set right. Not only does Extrasensory make the AI less likely to send out Fighting Pokémon, it’s also just too weak to dish out any sort of punishment. Draco was unhappy with the move and pointed out that Grass Knot would be a superior choice in almost every way. He was right:

- It allows us to seriously damage Water Pokémon (requirement);
- It annihilates Ground-Water Pokémon, which is strongly recommended;
- It’s amazing against legendaries, who tend to weigh a lot;
- It allows Greninja to turn from a Water Pokémon into a Grass Pokémon, which is a fantastic option to have against Electric attacks (it’s also great against Earthquake);
- It’s generally a very damaging move, given the heavy Pokémon that hang around in the BM.

Grass Knot turned out to be astonishingly good besides Ice Beam and Surf. Great targets include Terrakion, Rhyperior, all Water Pokémon, Regirock/Registeel/Regigigas, Raikou/Suicune.

Ice Beam was the most used move in our streak. It’s spectacular, but I guess this is not news.


Mega Kangashkan @ Mega stone
Ability: Scrappy / Parental Bond
Jolly Nature
EV’s: ATTACK and SPEED
- Return
- Fake Out
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch

So pretty much everything has been said about this one by now. This particular build focuses on longevity, with Return over Double-Edge to save your HP. Drain Punch helps Kangaskhan to last longer by the syphoned HP. Sucker Punch finishes off low-HP opponents and halts Dragon Dance Pokémon that have been damaged by Greninja, allowing Kangaskhan to remain in battle longer than its average bulk should allow for.

Special mention should be made of the Surf + Drain Punch combo. Greninja can use Surf and damage Kangaskhan, who will then simply steal the missing HP back from the enemies. A common and very damaging strategy.


Mega Salamence @ Mega stone
Ability: Intimidate / Aerilate
Adamant Nature
EV’s: ATTACK, SPEED, HP
- Return
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

There’s good news and bad news here. The Adamant nature with incomplete Speed EVs means that without a Dragon Dance, Salamence isn’t really all that fast. This leaves it open to faster Pokémon with Ice attacks, which is a serious risk. Draco’s calculations are based on a required Dragon Dance. After dancing even once, the story is the complete reverse. Salamence will outspeed anything of 130 base speed, regardless of the IVs/EVs. The Adamant nature now shines, with a maximum damage output. Aerilated Return is absurdly powerful.

Note the synergy between Clefable and Salamence. Clefable will divert 90% of all attacks to itself, allowing Salamence its required Dragon Dance. But Salamence’s Intimidate allows Clefable to sponge physical attacks that much more easily. Dragon moves targeting Salamence are the best here, with Clefable’s new Fairy typing. But that dream hardly ever came to life.

Earthquake deals with Poison and Steel types which might otherwise threaten Clefable. Roost provides longevity, but up to this point we’re not sure if Protect might not just be better. For now we’ll accept that it’s done the job.


Clefable @ Lum Berry
Ability: Magic Guard
Bold Nature
EV’s: HP, DEF, SP.DEF
- Cosmic Power
- Follow Me
- Rest
- Moonblast

I invested full EVs in HP and then used an EV/IV calculator to spread the final EVs out across the two defences so that both were almost equal. They ended up at 129 and 130.

Follow Me will make sure the partner Pokémon is ignored and Clefable’s maximum bulk ensures that this will happen turn after turn. Getting in even one Cosmic Power increases Clefable’s bulk to impressive levels, especially Intimidate-neutered physical attacks.

Lum Berry may seem out of place here, given Leftovers’ obvious power. Initial testing revealed that the BM AI will literally pile on the Paralysis and Confusion moves to deal with Follow Me. It was so bad, that we even considered dropping Clefable for a while, being turned off by the prospect of always having to battle status teams. In the second test run, I tried out Lum Berry, stipulating that this would at least enable Clefable to use Follow Me twice. As it turns out, the item switch completely turns around the BM AI strategy, and we saw close to zero use of movement-impairing status. So Lum Berry it was and we never looked back. Lum Berry is also fine with Rest.

Speaking about status, this is where Clefable’s ability Magic Guard absolutely shines. Use Toxic on it and the Lum Berry will trigger. Use Toxic on it again, and it will become poisoned with zero damage. Follow Me will then force the opponents to keep using Toxic on it, theoretically creating infinite free turns. The same is true for Will o’ Wisp.

Moon Blast is there to not be completely shut down by Taunt. It’s a fair STAB move with a coveted extra effect in that it gives Clefable even more longevity. Video 6RFW-WWWW-WW57-JKC5, a battle against two Veterans, displays how incredibly tough and important Clefable is.


Regular Tactics

- Quite frequently, the damage output from the front line Pokémon will be too much for the opposing Pokémon to deal with and they are simply wiped out. We have provided a video of this where the enemies in round 209 did not even move once: DJ3W-WWWW-WW57-JKEV.
- In other cases, we will delete one trainer, to make sure we can safely switch to Salamence + Clefable. In most cases, the BM isn’t even remotely equipped to deal with this. This can be seen in video of round 208: EXGW-WWWW-WW57-JKR8.
- Given Clefable’s bulk, it’s a regular occurrence that it will use Follow Me up to eight times in a row, allowing for a maximum number of Dragon Dances or, in the case of Greninja, special attacks.
- If Greninja has 1 HP, this is fantastic for the team. We will use Protect to either enable Kangaskhan to knock opponents out, or switch to Clefable. In the latter case, Clefable will follow up by using Follow Me, allowing Greninja to once more dish out some serious damage. Next, we will use Protect again, to sneak in a Cosmic Power. After that, we repeat the previous moves. 1 HP Greninja is actually quite sure to survive in these instances.
- Surf + Drain Punch (see above)


Threats & Sad Saps

We’ve recognized four different threats:

1. Blizzard – Follow Me provides no defence against it and with BM hax it has threatening accuracy and freeze chances. Articuno and Glaceon are the biggest issues here, as they carry Stab Blizzard and have amazing and good bulk, respectively.
2. Focus Blast – It crushes Kangaskhan and is run by so many Pokémon that it’s hard to play around. Choice Scarf Landorus is a good example.
3. Terrakion – Again, this one wipes out Kangaskhan. We have to choice but to use Fake Out and Grass Know on it instantly.
4. Volcarona – Much less of a threat, but still noteworthy. This one has enough bulk to get a Quiver Dance through, after which things can become unpleasant. We use Surf + Return in this case.


Besides threats, there’s also plenty of hilarity to be found in the BM. Some strategies are just so laughably bad against our team that we’d like to share them.
- There’s nothing quite like a Metagross craftily using Trick against two Mega Pokémon, only to see it fail and attempt the same thing the next turn.
- Ah, Spiritomb. Will o’ Wisp doesn’t work on Clefable. Not even after your tenth attempt. Neither does using Sucker Punch or Pain Split, for that matter. Was it frustration that you used Will o’ Wisp on your ally instead? We like to think so.
- Trick Room was the most used strategy against our team but it simply doesn’t work. Greninja will easily work its way out of it via Protect and Kangaskhan can just allow itself to get hit to syphon the HP back afterwards. Sucker Punch ignores Trick Room and is great against the Pokémon setting it up (Slowbro/king, Dusknoir, Reuniclus). Finally, Clefable is so slow that a Trick Room means it can get a Cosmic Power through before getting hit. Follow Me has priority.
- There’s a really odd Dusknoir who’ll first use Trick Room and will then start spamming Shadow Sneak. Quite the strategy we’ve got here.
- Dragons and Ghosts proved to be completely irrelevant. Greninja easily disposes of Dragons and Kangaskhan, either in its pre-mega form or via Sucker Punch, takes care of Ghosts.
- Our absolute favourite was the concept of ‘Worst. Ally. Ever.’ Sometimes, the BM will choose to use Protect on turn one. It’s like the BM is saying to its partner, ‘Yeah, you’ve got this bro!’ and then contentedly looks on as its partner is ripped to shreds by a boxing Kangaroo and a Frog Ninja. Protect Pokémon are easily predicted and as such this strategy will never work out well.
- Will someone either remove Flareon from the BM or put it out of its misery? It stinks and will never, ever be a threat to anyone.
- To round off, Explosion users were also quite the oddity. Why run Explosion on a Forretress? It’s SO WEAK. Even its Custap Berry is predictable. But at least that’s some sort of strategy. The Skuntank is like the worst type of ally as well. ‘Screw this, you’re on your own!’ BOOM!!! Zero damage to the Greninja using Protect, negligible damage to Kangaskhan. GG.
 

Smuckem

Resident Facility Bot Wannabe
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Besides threats, there’s also plenty of hilarity to be found in the BM. Some strategies are just so laughably bad against our team that we’d like to share them.
- There’s nothing quite like a Metagross craftily using Trick against two Mega Pokémon, only to see it fail and attempt the same thing the next turn.
- Ah, Spiritomb. Will o’ Wisp doesn’t work on Clefable. Not even after your tenth attempt. Neither does using Sucker Punch or Pain Split, for that matter. Was it frustration that you used Will o’ Wisp on your ally instead? We like to think so.
- Trick Room was the most used strategy against our team but it simply doesn’t work. Greninja will easily work its way out of it via Protect and Kangaskhan can just allow itself to get hit to syphon the HP back afterwards. Sucker Punch ignores Trick Room and is great against the Pokémon setting it up (Slowbro/king, Dusknoir, Reuniclus). Finally, Clefable is so slow that a Trick Room means it can get a Cosmic Power through before getting hit. Follow Me has priority.
- There’s a really odd Dusknoir who’ll first use Trick Room and will then start spamming Shadow Sneak. Quite the strategy we’ve got here.
- Dragons and Ghosts proved to be completely irrelevant. Greninja easily disposes of Dragons and Kangaskhan, either in its pre-mega form or via Sucker Punch, takes care of Ghosts.
- Our absolute favourite was the concept of ‘Worst. Ally. Ever.’ Sometimes, the BM will choose to use Protect on turn one. It’s like the BM is saying to its partner, ‘Yeah, you’ve got this bro!’ and then contentedly looks on as its partner is ripped to shreds by a boxing Kangaroo and a Frog Ninja. Protect Pokémon are easily predicted and as such this strategy will never work out well.
- Will someone either remove Flareon from the BM or put it out of its misery? It stinks and will never, ever be a threat to anyone.
- To round off, Explosion users were also quite the oddity. Why run Explosion on a Forretress? It’s SO WEAK. Even its Custap Berry is predictable. But at least that’s some sort of strategy. The Skuntank is like the worst type of ally as well. ‘Screw this, you’re on your own!’ BOOM!!! Zero damage to the Greninja using Protect, negligible damage to Kangaskhan. GG.
Please don't rash on Metagross4's stupidity, or that of Dusknoir4...or that of Protect users...or that of Forretress4...or that of Skuntank4...I'd like to think that the time I spent re-creating those sets wasn't completely wasted. Rashing on Spiritiomb4's okay, though.

And ABSOLUTELY don't rash on Flareon's uselessness, you'll make Altissimo very sad.
 
And ABSOLUTELY don't rash on Flareon's uselessness, you'll make Altissimo very sad.
DID SOMEONE SAY MY NAME!!! I AM HERE AND I HEARD WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT FLAREON HYDRA78

ok no i'll admit flareon is kind of useless, as much as I might want to believe otherwise. I have been using Call_Me_Charlie 's team on and off in the Maison and Flareon can wreck shit there but it requires sun and Tailwind so the amount of setup it needs to be effective in Maison is kind of ridiculous because it's so slow and Fire-type too.

I once attempted to theorymon some sort of setup Flareon as the third in a Durant/Cloyster/third team but didn't really have any luck figuring out something plausible sadly
 
So, I thought I'd try going for at least a streak of 50 in Y (Having gotten to 69 in Alpha Sapphire), this time using Doubles. So far, I'm thinking of going with Weavile, Gardevoir, and Garchomp, but I'm not sure what I should use for a fourth 'mon. Couple of questions, though-

1) What would you recommend for a fourth 'mon? It seems like Fairy pokemon are the ones i don't have a solid answer to, but is there another glaring hole I'm missing? Perhaps Skarmory, for STAB Iron head+ immunity to earthquake?
2) With more targets meaning more chance for the RNG to do something stupid, is it worth replacing Outrage with Dragon Claw on Garchomp?
3) For Garchomp, I assume I want Earthquake/Fire Fang/Dragon-move/Protect, but what about Gardevoir? Hyper Voice/Psyshock/Protect is obvious, but what should I use for the fourth slot? Destiny Bond (I already have the egg move)? Taunt? Another move? Obviously, this is probably dependant on the 'fourth mon I pick.
 
So, I thought I'd try going for at least a streak of 50 in Y (Having gotten to 69 in Alpha Sapphire), this time using Doubles. So far, I'm thinking of going with Weavile, Gardevoir, and Garchomp, but I'm not sure what I should use for a fourth 'mon. Couple of questions, though-

1) What would you recommend for a fourth 'mon? It seems like Fairy pokemon are the ones i don't have a solid answer to, but is there another glaring hole I'm missing? Perhaps Skarmory, for STAB Iron head+ immunity to earthquake?
2) With more targets meaning more chance for the RNG to do something stupid, is it worth replacing Outrage with Dragon Claw on Garchomp?
3) For Garchomp, I assume I want Earthquake/Fire Fang/Dragon-move/Protect, but what about Gardevoir? Hyper Voice/Psyshock/Protect is obvious, but what should I use for the fourth slot? Destiny Bond (I already have the egg move)? Taunt? Another move? Obviously, this is probably dependant on the 'fourth mon I pick.
Skarmory won't help u much as you'll probably find that offensively it's too weak and all the set up like spikes etc is wasted in the maison, Bisharp could help you (slow enough for an answer to trick room but STAB priority in sucker punch) but you won't be able to spam EQ with garchomp so if you want a flying type then talonflame doesn't care much for faries (u got steel wing to be sure but BB will probably be better in most cases anyway) and give u a strong priority which is key in doubles ...he'll also take out grass / Ice types that garchomp doesn't like :)
And there's thundorus or zapdos if u want to spam discharge / earthquake
 

Lumari

empty spaces
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris an Administrator Alumnus
TFP Leader
So, I thought I'd try going for at least a streak of 50 in Y (Having gotten to 69 in Alpha Sapphire), this time using Doubles. So far, I'm thinking of going with Weavile, Gardevoir, and Garchomp, but I'm not sure what I should use for a fourth 'mon. Couple of questions, though-

1) What would you recommend for a fourth 'mon? It seems like Fairy pokemon are the ones i don't have a solid answer to, but is there another glaring hole I'm missing? Perhaps Skarmory, for STAB Iron head+ immunity to earthquake?
2) With more targets meaning more chance for the RNG to do something stupid, is it worth replacing Outrage with Dragon Claw on Garchomp?
3) For Garchomp, I assume I want Earthquake/Fire Fang/Dragon-move/Protect, but what about Gardevoir? Hyper Voice/Psyshock/Protect is obvious, but what should I use for the fourth slot? Destiny Bond (I already have the egg move)? Taunt? Another move? Obviously, this is probably dependant on the 'fourth mon I pick.
1) Scizor looks like a straightforward pick for the fourth slot here; more than anything you're looking for a switch-in to Steel-types and a secondary switch-in to Poison-types, offensive coverage comes only second. The Fairy problem is there but it's less big than you're making it sound like, since Weavile / Gardevoir have alright neutral coverage on them, but yes Garchomp really would appreciate a partner that can handle them (as well as Ice-types), which Scizor's Bullet Punch does nicely. Earthquake _is_ a problem, but it probably was gonna be no matter what fourth mon you chose, so I recommend you run Protect on all your mons and use it, and that you mainly rely on Dragon Claw as Garchomp's attacking move... Setwise, Bullet Punch / Bug Bite / Superpower / Protect is standard, with a bulky offense-focused EV spread (the 204 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 44 Spe that I (should have) used will serve you well), but the item will be kind of annoying; Scizor really wants the Life Orb, but Garchomp needs it too since it hits like a wet paper towel otherwise. I still think Scizor can make better use of it in order to secure a couple KOs on really really really annoying foes (Scarf Terrakion and to a lesser extent Togekiss are the first ones that come to mind), Garchomp will have to make do with Lum Berry. Life Orb Garchomp + Choice Band Scizor would be the other option, which would've been fine in Triples, but here my gut instinct is that it would make Earthquake just too hard to use.
2) Yes, never use Outrage in a doubles format.
3) If you're going with Scizor, Hidden Power Ground is the best option by far, since that setup would still have trouble pressuring Steel-types properly (and it honestly will no matter what non-Fire or Fighting fourth mon you pick), so giving Gardevoir a way to remove Probopass / Bastiodon / Heatran (especially the latter) without much trouble is really valuable, it's so, so annoying having to lose a ton of momentum whenever one of those leads. If you're already done breeding the Gardevoir, Focus Blast provides the same coverage, it's just highly inferior because of the accuracy so don't expect to make it too far if you use that one, but I think 50 should still be pretty doable since it won't come into play _that_ often. Taunt seems like the most viable choice otherwise, though it's a bit redundant with Weavile's Fake Out. On Garchomp, Fire Fang is a nice option for Escavalier and opposing Scizor yes so nice call on that one, since this team would struggle with those (if you go with Scizor, Abomasnow / Levitate Bronzong / Togekiss are covered fine, Skarmory is too passive to be a real threat, and Ferrothorn is a little bit of both heh). For that reason, other coverage options in Iron Head and Rock Slide seem inferior, but Swords Dance is a nice fourth move too; you wouldn't be using Garchomp as a dedicated setup sweeper, but it often can find room to set one up on free turns in late-game situations, and the extra power can come in really handy (theoretical example off the top of my head, Garchomp + Scizor are out vs two Fire-types and an unknown lastmon; Protect bait on Scizor to freely set up Garchomp, and suddenly Garchomp can face the lastmon with a Swords Dance boost under its belt).

Good luck!
 
Would cutting Garchomp be a reasonable idea? It occurs to me I was originally considering Garchomp before I decided to go with Weavile over Greninja, and without the need for an electric immunity, Earthquake does cause a lot of problems for the relatively frail members of my starting lineup. That would make HP Ground even more important on Gardevoir, though, which means I'll need to do some breeding (Which I was planning to do anyway once I get the appropriate ditto, though). On the other hand, if I just borrowed the example team from the Mastering the Maison article, Gastrodon would give me a strong Ground-type attacker that would also perform well in Trick Rooms. Perhaps

Gardevoir@Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Timid Nature
4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
-Hyper Voice
-Psyshock
-Protect
-Taunt

Weavile@Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Jolly Nature
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
-Fake Out
-Ice Punch
-Knock Off
-Protect

Scizor@Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Adamant Nature
252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spe
-Bullet Punch
-Bug Bite
-Superpower
-Protect

Gastrodon@Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
Quite Nature
???
-Scald
-Earth Power
-Protect
-Clear Smog?
 
Would cutting Garchomp be a reasonable idea? It occurs to me I was originally considering Garchomp before I decided to go with Weavile over Greninja, and without the need for an electric immunity, Earthquake does cause a lot of problems for the relatively frail members of my starting lineup. That would make HP Ground even more important on Gardevoir, though, which means I'll need to do some breeding (Which I was planning to do anyway once I get the appropriate ditto, though). On the other hand, if I just borrowed the example team from the Mastering the Maison article, Gastrodon would give me a strong Ground-type attacker that would also perform well in Trick Rooms. Perhaps

Gardevoir@Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Timid Nature
4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
-Hyper Voice
-Psyshock
-Protect
-Taunt

Weavile@Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Jolly Nature
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
-Fake Out
-Ice Punch
-Knock Off
-Protect

Scizor@Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Adamant Nature
252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spe
-Bullet Punch
-Bug Bite
-Superpower
-Protect

Gastrodon@Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
Quite Nature
???
-Scald
-Earth Power
-Protect
-Clear Smog?
Not thought it through fully but I got a hp ground sylveon if u wanted to replace gardevoir then give scizor the mega stone and garchomp back the life orb? ...gastrodon may need to boost or you may find that he has the same passive issues as skarmory ...but listen to what TDPJ says over me lol! ...always listen to TDPJ over me! :D
 

Lumari

empty spaces
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris an Administrator Alumnus
TFP Leader
^ Sylveon's low Speed and lack of Protect make it a pretty inferior choice to Gardevoir, and Mega Scizor is pretty outclassed by Life Orb Scizor in Doubles because it misses a bunch of crucial Bullet Punch KOs, so those would be downgrades... I tried Sylveon out once on a team with Kangaskhan, but Weavile + Gardevoir was just outright better because of their higher Speed + ability to properly run Protect.

Would cutting Garchomp be a reasonable idea? It occurs to me I was originally considering Garchomp before I decided to go with Weavile over Greninja, and without the need for an electric immunity, Earthquake does cause a lot of problems for the relatively frail members of my starting lineup. That would make HP Ground even more important on Gardevoir, though, which means I'll need to do some breeding (Which I was planning to do anyway once I get the appropriate ditto, though). On the other hand, if I just borrowed the example team from the Mastering the Maison article, Gastrodon would give me a strong Ground-type attacker that would also perform well in Trick Rooms. Perhaps

Gardevoir@Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Timid Nature
4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
-Hyper Voice
-Psyshock
-Protect
-Taunt

Weavile@Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Jolly Nature
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
-Fake Out
-Ice Punch
-Knock Off
-Protect

Scizor@Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Adamant Nature
252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spe
-Bullet Punch
-Bug Bite
-Superpower
-Protect

Gastrodon@Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
Quite Nature
???
-Scald
-Earth Power
-Protect
-Clear Smog?
Honestly, Gastrodon is better than Garchomp on this particular team for a multitude of reasons, but at this rate we've pretty much arrived at my team of Weavile / Mega Gardevoir / Gastrodon / Scizor heh (which I used as the sample Doubles team when I wrote that part of the Maison guide), and I was sorta hoping to avoid "just use my team" because lame, and Garchomp should still be more than viable if 50 is what you're going for. My team's latest writeup is here, older writeups are linked in the leaderboard:
One rebreed and two renames from previous iterations:

Catweazle (Weavile) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Jolly
IVs: 31/31/31/27/31/31
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Protect


Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Nature: Timid
IVs: 31/14/31/30/30/31
EVs: 4 HP / 4 Def / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power Ground
- Protect


Membrane (Gastrodon) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Storm Drain
Nature: Quiet
IVs: 31/23/31/31/31/4
EVs: 164 HP / 108 Def / 220 SpA / 12 SpD
Stats: 41 Spe
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Icy Wind
- Clear Smog


Pinwheel (Scizor) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/6/31/31
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower
- Protect

I've already explained this team a couple times and most of it should be self explanatory, but in short, Weavile + Gardevoir are a standard Fake Out + spread move lead pair with great offensive synergy. Sets should be largely standard too, with HP Ground on Gardevoir to slightly ease the matchup against (4x weak in particular) Steel-types like Heatran and Bastiodon. Gastrodon and Scizor then serve to cover the lead duo's weaknesses against Poison-, Steel-, and Fire-types and Trick Room, with Scizor also providing priority and Gastrodon keeping defensive setup mons like Volcarona, Gyarados, and Zapdos in check and occasionally providing speed control that Gardevoir and Scizor appreciate. I used to run Quiet 0 Spe IV Gastrodon in order to maximise its effectiveness under Trick Room whereas "it gets outrun by anything outside of Trick Room anyways". This gave Gastrodon a Speed stat of 39. However, one of the biggest threats to the team, Escavalier4, happened to sit at 40 Speed, smashing both Weavile and Gardevoir, mandating Superpower from Scizor, and outspeeding and Swaggering Gastrodon, so it honestly was kind of a no-brainer to go for 41 Speed instead. It took me some time to actually get around to rebreeding it because, as always, lazy, but here the new Gastrodon is finally. Minor optimisation, no real downsides.
...and to quickly highlight the non-EV spread differences between my team and your outline:

- the Gastrodon set: with the role Gastrodon is playing on this team (switch into stuff and hit back), you kind of need the immediate bulk of Assault Vest, the battles just don't last long enough for Leftovers to be worth it. Sitrus Berry is okay in theory too, but in practice I found AV better. I also tried Rindo Berry on a very early version of this team, but it was pretty awful since most STAB Grass attacks KOed Gastrodon right through the Berry, so yeah. AV's lack of Protect is workable since realistically you wouldn't use it that often in the first place and the Gastrodon / Scizor switch synergy is nothing short of phenomenal, so that leaves two more moves to pick. Very good call on Clear Smog, which makes Zapdos, Volcarona, and Gyarados suddenly a whole lot less dumb, and for the fourth move, people usually go with Ice coverage; on this team Icy Wind is a good option since Gardevoir and Scizor really appreciate it.
- Taunt vs HP Ground on Gardevoir: honestly HP Ground is still as good with Gastrodon as it was with Garchomp, the point of HP Ground is not because you outright lose to those Steel-types otherwise (of course not, you've got a Ground-type and Superpower Scizor in the back), it's to not be backed into a corner right away when you find one of them leads, and swapping out Garchomp for gastrodon really doesn't change much there.

Either way, if you want to use Gastrodon, my team naturally is the direction I believe you should take (if you want to go for 50 using that one then knock yourself out), and if you're not comfortable with that and want to use a team of your own, Garchomp should still work well enough.
 
Team Profile - ORAS Super Multi w/ AI

I'm at 22 battles so far and things are going well, so I figured I'd post my Super Multi w/ AI team here to serve as a record for when my streak goes down.

AI teammate: Steven (formerly Wally)

My Pokemon:

Tornadus-T @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Nature: Rash (+SpA, -SpD)
IVs: x/x/x/31/31/31
EVS: 252 SpA/4 SpD/252 Spe
- Hurricane
- Knock Off
- Heat Wave
- U-turn

I rather like this Tornadus-T; maximum IVs and fully invested EVs in Speed and Special Attack mean it can hit pretty hard. In the 22 battles I've done, Tornadus-T has been outsped twice - once by Rampardos and once by Alakazam that I'm guessing was Scarfed. Assault Vest and Regenerator paired with a perfect SpD IV mean Tornadus-T can take special hits pretty well, and U-Turn combines chip damage from an uninvested 100 base attack with Regenerator healing. Unfortunately, Hurricane's accuracy is unreliable. Though I haven't had it come back to bite me yet, I know it's coming. My other complaint is a crappy nature (would've preferred Modest or Timid), but still, can't argue with a legendary on your team.

Gallade-M Galladite
Ability: Steadfast/Inner Focus (Mega)
Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -SpA)
IVs: 31/31/x/x/x/31
EVs: 4 HP/252 Att/252 Spe
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Zen Headbutt
- Close Combat

Protect lets Gallade safely Mega Evolve, giving it a good boost to its Speed as well as giving it an insane boost to Attack. Once Mega Evolved, it has a very strong type coverage - it can hit almost anything with at least neutral coverage AFAIK. The IV spread maximizes its 110 base Speed and 165 base Attack, as well as a Jolly nature which allows it to get a leg up on similar 110-speed opponents.

AI partner is Steven, leading with Metagross.

So far, I've seen two main checks to this team: Gliscor1 and Spiritomb1. Spiritomb1 is a pain due to having no weaknesses, but my usually strategy is to declaw it with Knock Off and then take it out with Hurricane. Gliscor1 is more annoying - its Acrobatics can single-handedly wipe out the two Gallades and it can't be hit very hard by Magnezone. If Tornadus-T goes down early in the match this thing can be an issue. Druddigon1 is also a pain because it likes to spam Glare, which cripples my speed-focused team.

So yeah. I'm at 22 wins so far, which is nowhere near the leaderboard but I'm starting to get into a groove with my team. Wally seems to be a good partner so far. I initially tried Maxie but his suicidal Crobat and his 4x-weak-to-water Mega Camerupt didn't work out at all.


EDIT: The streak with Wally ended at 25 in a hax-filled battle that involved Zen Headbutt missing Salamence1 and a Quagsire3 tanking my Gallade's Close Combat with 1 HP left before critting with Ice Punch. I switched to Steven as partner and started a new streak.
 
Last edited:
Format: Super Triple Battle
Game: Omega Ruby
Streak: 412 wins
Losing battle: 48PW-WWWW-WW58-X8RC

Sun and Moon are out, so I decided to give the Maison one last try to see how far I would get. I certainly exceeded expectations with the same team after falling short of 200 straight.

Leads on the left:


Greninja w/ Focus Sash
252 SpA / 252 Spe / 6 HP
Timid
Protean
Ice Beam
Grass Knot
Dark Pulse
Mat Block


Leads on centre:
Gardevoir w/ Gardevoirite

252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid
Trace (Pixilate on Mega Evolution)
Hyper Voice
Psyshock
Shadow Ball
Protect


Leads on the right:

Talonflame w/ Life Orb
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Adamant
Gale Wings
Brave Bird
Flare Blitz
Quick Guard
Tailwind


Reserve:

Gastrodon w/ Rindo Berry
180 Def / 76 SpD / 252 HP
Bold
Storm Drain
Recover
Stockpile
Earth Power
Scald



Conkeldurr w/ Assault Vest
252 Atk / 160 SpD / 96 HP
Adamant
Guts
Drain Punch
Mach Punch
Thunder Punch
Knock Off



Aegislash w/ Weakness Policy
4 Def / 252 SpD / 252 HP
Careful
Stance Change
King's Shield
Swords Dance
Shadow Sneak
Sacred Sword


On the first turn, Greninja uses Mat Block, Gardevoir Mega Evolves and uses Hyper Voice, and Talonflame uses Tailwind. There are some exceptions. If the enemy knows a priority move, Talonflame will use Quick Guard instead. If a Scizor is on the field (and within range of Talonflame), Gardevoir will use Protect and Talonflame will use Flare Blitz.
Talonflame is usually the first to faint. Conkeldurr is usually the first to sub in if a Pokemon faints, because it benefits greatly from Tailwind. Both Talonflame and Conkeldurr can counter Trick Rooms with their powerful priority moves.
Gastrodon is sent in to deal with Steel and Electric types. Aegislash sits in a corner using Swords Dance to one-shot the opponent.
How I lost: In my experience, Crobat uses Taunt the vast majority of the time on Greninja. So I used Brave Bird. Unfortunately, it could not OHKO Crobat, and Crobat instead OHKO'd Gardevoir with Cross Poison. Greninja got paralyzed and so I was at a huge disadvantage I could not recover from. We ended up in a 1v1 but Gastrodon did not have the strength to win.
 
Last edited:
Well fuck, I totally forgot about this forum until now lol.

One of my favs is assault vest, therion landorus and thundorus so u get intimidate stat drop straight from the off and u can abuse disscharge/earthquake ...both pokemon are available in the giveaway forum, you also still get ur mega slot available so adamant khan with fake out would be a good back row poke but so would scizor or metagross as they would solve ur ice weakness as well.
Sticking with khan/ninja lead landorus or gyarados would be good back row as theyd be able to come in on earthquakes and provide intimidate support. A khan set would look something like PuP/return/sucker punch/equake ...spread moves are good but u dont want to be walled by meinshao or bastiodon using wide guard! Also sounds like u may want to try and fit multiscale dragonite on ur team as he'd be immune to earthquake or scarf hydregion if u dont want to be intimidate bait
One of the most overpowered moves is choice boosted Sylveons hypervoice, only issue is speed so will need tailwind support and something that can counter steel/poison (landorus?)
Also remember that spread moves dont hit full power in doubles/triples so they're not always the best as you end up missing out on OHKOs. having a spread move with a very strong single target move to pick off tanks is usually the best offensive tactic.
Well, I didn't even know that spread moves are less powerful when they hit many opponents... Are you saying that Landorus and Thundurus would both be wearing the Assault Vest? Also, would they both be in the Incarnate form? What about the back row Landorus?

Finally, has Greninja any utility apart from using Mat Block? It would be cool if you could actually give me Thundurus, both Landorus and Greninja's whole sets.

Sorry for asking so much questions lol. Answering them would be much appreciated though.
 
Well fuck, I totally forgot about this forum until now lol.



Well, I didn't even know that spread moves are less powerful when they hit many opponents... Are you saying that Landorus and Thundurus would both be wearing the Assault Vest? Also, would they both be in the Incarnate form? What about the back row Landorus?

Finally, has Greninja any utility apart from using Mat Block? It would be cool if you could actually give me Thundurus, both Landorus and Greninja's whole sets.

Sorry for asking so much questions lol. Answering them would be much appreciated though.
That's ok...although I can't remember what I was going on about and what it related to lol! However can still probably answer your questions!
1: landorus would be wearing AV and be in Therian forme (unless you got a good sheer force landorus then use that with a life orb), Thundurus would be in incarnate forme for the speed ..and prankster ability.
2: greninja is very good in the maison with his Proteon ability giving him STAB on every move and you'll see his name a LOT on the leader boards. A typical set for him will be max spatk/spd holding a life orb for KOs or sash to ensure Matt block, moves: mat block/ice beam then two out of scald/grass knot/dark pulse
3: landorus-T would be EQ/rock slide/knock off/u-turn
Thundurus-I =thunder bolt/T-wave/HPice then maybe discharge or heal block
 

Smuckem

Resident Facility Bot Wannabe
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
So, I've been going back to Super Triples once every so often, as a way to keep a healthy amount of BP handy for the various sets I'm planning to drag into Sun once Bank gets re-tooled. My current effort involves another go with Something about Debrief PST, with one important wrinkle thrown in. Replacing Megarupt on the team is:


EliteBell (Bronzong) (Lvl.50) @ Lum Berry/Life Orb/White Herb/Wide Lens/Focus Sash/Occa Berry/Shuca Berry
Ability: Heatproof
Nature: Brave
IVs: 31/31/31/0/31/0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Def
- Trick Room
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Explosion

With TRE publishing Battle Tree/Royal data, I decided to pay tribute to the Entity by mostly re-creating one of the sets from its 308-win Battle Castle Doubles streak. Here, it is my backup TR setter, a physical attacker to balance my offense somewhat, and the team wildcard. The wildcard aspect is due to the hold item: to re-create the item usage TRE utilized on its Bronzong, every 50 battles this one's item will be cycled. When equipped with Lum, Hypno will equip a Mental Herb; when equipped with LO, Clawitzer will equip an Assault Vest.

Because Focus Sash is invaluable to Taillow, when EliteBell's item cycle shifts to Sash, I will instead use:


WhirlBell(Bronzong) (Lvl.50) @ Macho Brace
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Brave
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/10-11
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Def
- Trick Room
- Rock Slide
- Gyro Ball
- Zen Headbutt

My tribute to ReptoAbysmal's flunkie Bronzong from his semi-random TR roster, the only setter whom he uses as an abuser. Other than the non-zero Spd IVs, it's basically a copy. It's also cool to finally have a set in the Maison holding a Macho Brace.

The team is as solid as always: with the BP gathered from this run so far, I've been able to create a Floatzel based off of Serebii's "I've floated an option...what is your Choice?" set, Relaxed versions of the Subway/Maison's four Shuckle sets, Imperfect Gengar1 & Frontier Crobat4 (now Subway/Maison/Tree Crobat3), and a standard Doubles/Triples Megapharos. Despite losing the coverage Megarupt offers, both of these 'Zongs have fit into the team almost seamlessly, and having these around makes preserving Exeggutor & Clawitzer for later an easier task.

Many thx to the two Smogonites in question for providing the inspiration to try these out (when I was originally intending to make Imperfect Bronzong4). In my head, I will henceforth refer to both of them by their new nicknames of ~DING~ (Repto) and ~DONG~ (TRE)....
 
That's ok...although I can't remember what I was going on about and what it related to lol! However can still probably answer your questions!
1: landorus would be wearing AV and be in Therian forme (unless you got a good sheer force landorus then use that with a life orb), Thundurus would be in incarnate forme for the speed ..and prankster ability.
2: greninja is very good in the maison with his Proteon ability giving him STAB on every move and you'll see his name a LOT on the leader boards. A typical set for him will be max spatk/spd holding a life orb for KOs or sash to ensure Matt block, moves: mat block/ice beam then two out of scald/grass knot/dark pulse
3: landorus-T would be EQ/rock slide/knock off/u-turn
Thundurus-I =thunder bolt/T-wave/HPice then maybe discharge or heal block
Great, thanks!
 
How do weather-activating abilities work in Rotation battles? Will the rain be reset every time I send the Drizzler back in?

The reason I ask is because I'm planning to get a Politoed/Mega Swampert rain team together.
 
How do weather-activating abilities work in Rotation battles? Will the rain be reset every time I send the Drizzler back in?

The reason I ask is because I'm planning to get a Politoed/Mega Swampert rain team together.
On-entrance abilities only trigger for the lead pokemon and switch-ins, not rotations. According to what I've read on a number of sites, anyway.
 
Yea I've never used a weather setter in rotations, but I'm currently using a Gyarados and Intimidate only triggers when it initially enters the field, not when it rotates in. That would be super broken if it triggered on every rotation, lol.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 6)

Top